Colonial Berthiers: 1902 Indochina and 1907 Senegalese

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Forgotten Weapons

Forgotten Weapons

7 жыл бұрын

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The sharpshooters of the French colonial forces in Indochina (the Tirailleurs Indochinois) had never been issued Lebel rifles, and were still using single shot Gras rifles at the turn of the century. The Indochinese soldiers were rather short statured, and the Lebel was simply too long of a rifle for them to use efficiently. The colonial government requested a special weapon for these men, and the result was the 1902 Berthier.
The Berthier carbine was much more compact than the Lebel, and it was also less expensive to manufacture and simpler to instruct troops with. So after some brief experimentation, a version was produced with a 25 inch (635mm) long barrel, which was a nice balance between the carbines and the Lebel rifle. In my opinion, the 1902 is the ideal size for a Berthier, and I think it handles best of all the different variations made.
An initial production run of 22,500 of these 1902 rifles was made by Chatellerault between 1902 and 1912. A second batch of about 25,000 more would be produced in the 1920s, but we will discuss these in a separate video, as they were made with the 1916 upgrades.
With the successful implementation of the Berthier in the Indochinese colonial forces, it would stand out as an obvious solution for the need to upgrade the arms of France's African colonial troops as well. These soldiers were not short, but also had outdated Gras rifles, and Lebel production was no longer active by 1907. As a result, a further lengthened Berthier was suggested for the Senegalese troops, with a barrel 31.5 inches (800mm) long; equal to that of the Lebel. This was accepted into service, and 25,000 were manufactured by Chatellerault between 1907 and the beginning of the Great War in 1914.
With the urgent need for more rifles because of World War One, the 1907 Berthier (renamed to the 1907 Colonial and issued to colonial troops besides just the Senegalese as of 1908) would attract the interest of the military because it was cheaper to manufacture than the Lebel, and still in active production. The result would be the 07/15 Berthier, which would become a dual standard infantry rifle alongside the 1886 Lebel in the war.

Пікірлер: 135
@Taistelukalkkuna
@Taistelukalkkuna 7 жыл бұрын
"Have you seen those new colonial Berthiers. They have curved stacking rods...curved...rods...."
@plitterusmaximus
@plitterusmaximus 7 жыл бұрын
Taistelukalkkuna i used to be an adventurer like you. but then i took a 7.62 n round to the knee
@matthewharger221
@matthewharger221 7 жыл бұрын
Taistelukalkkuna Hail summoner, conjure me up a warm Fort Douaumont, would you?
@jeffengland2791
@jeffengland2791 7 жыл бұрын
victor plitt, Skyrim reference? Too funny.
@moritzbiegel8778
@moritzbiegel8778 7 жыл бұрын
Waited for the "war were declared" clips like with c&Arsenal :D
@GeraudRulz
@GeraudRulz 7 жыл бұрын
I love the optimism on these rifle sights. 2nd longest confirmed sniper kill in history is 2,475 m with an AWM. And yet they made the sights go out to this range with a Berthier incase one of the troops happened to be a super soldier...
@lsq7833
@lsq7833 7 жыл бұрын
It was for volley shots, not SUPER DUPER ACCURATE SNOIPING.
@Ensign_Cthulhu
@Ensign_Cthulhu 7 жыл бұрын
Mostly long distance massed volley fire by entire companies or battalions.
@daktari
@daktari 7 жыл бұрын
Remember that those rifles came after black powder, round-nosed bullets fed rifles. The 8mm Lebel (and the following foreign ammo) seemed to quadruple the range of the average rifleman. You can likely maim an ennemy soldier at 2000 meters with a Berthier, if ever they use what the strategy of the time was : line assault. Granted, you're not hitting a lone soldier at 2000 meters, but in a large group of them, you're probably hitting someone. Then after WWI the reality of combat settled in, and most interwar rifles have more conservative sights.
@MrBioniclefan1
@MrBioniclefan1 7 жыл бұрын
You have made a great point.
@charleswatson2088
@charleswatson2088 7 жыл бұрын
Geraud Sansom nobidy call it awm noob it call awp and you 372 noscopsing wit it🤔😉🤣😎😎😉😂😋😎🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
@robertbenson136
@robertbenson136 7 жыл бұрын
Ian you have plenty of rifles with stacking hooks. Please take 3 outside and show us how they work.
@TwentythreePER
@TwentythreePER 7 жыл бұрын
I have to agree that the 1902 Indochina is probably the best iteration of the 3 shot Berthier. The 25" barrel looks just the right length and the bent bolt handle would stay out of the way. Too bad they are more rare than usual Berthier rifles but maybe I'll find one some day.
@DanielWW2
@DanielWW2 7 жыл бұрын
This is just getting to the "wannaby Dutch" levels of different carbine models. :P
@MrBioniclefan1
@MrBioniclefan1 7 жыл бұрын
No kidding
@renaudfabre4791
@renaudfabre4791 7 жыл бұрын
The name "tirailleurs sénégalais" (senegalese troops) referred to all black africans french troops and not only to those of the current Senegal.
@MeFee100
@MeFee100 7 жыл бұрын
"War were declared", that sounds familiar ; )
@carlmaki
@carlmaki 7 жыл бұрын
Futurama reference? Need to get that 5% military discount.
@BennettIsAmazing
@BennettIsAmazing 7 жыл бұрын
Was waiting for the cannon fire sound effects
@polygondwanaland8390
@polygondwanaland8390 7 жыл бұрын
all your berthiers are belong to us
@Thebluebridgetroll
@Thebluebridgetroll 7 жыл бұрын
Carmichael Fong It's C&Rsenal, a gun history channel cataloging (or attempting to catalogue) all the guns in the war
@jeyendeoso
@jeyendeoso 7 жыл бұрын
BOOM ratatata *tank reversing* beep-beep-beep-beep
@eliane2743
@eliane2743 4 жыл бұрын
A good analogy in English to the French term “tirailleur” is the use of “rifle” in the designation of British colonial troops like in Burma Rifles or King’s African Rifles, who are the very counterparts of the “tirailleurs indochinois” and “tirailleurs sénégalais” mentioned here. As a footnote, French Indochina encompasses Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam - or rather Tonkin, Annam and Cochinchina which are the historical three parts of Vietnam. As to the size problem that locals had with occidental equipment, I remember having read that when South-Vietnam troops began to be issued US stuff, it was common to see soldiers floating in M1 helmets and surplus uniforms or struggling with Garand rifles.
@desroin
@desroin 7 жыл бұрын
If that short rifle had a 5 round clip, it could have been a pretty damn superior gun for it's time I'd think
@ricochetoconnell3186
@ricochetoconnell3186 7 жыл бұрын
Very nice vids as always ! :p Thanks to you i'm "learning" the weapons history of my country very easily ! Many thanks to you !
@troy9477
@troy9477 7 жыл бұрын
The Berthier system certainly seems to have an advantage over the Lebel, except in capacity. Carrying clipped ammo in pouches is more efficient as well as quieter, and loading should be much easier and quicker than loose ammo from pouches going into a tubular magazine. The riflea/carbines are more wieldy too. Anything over about 9 lbs should be forsaken; the infantryman has enough to carry already. All the variations and the thinking behind them are very interesting. Great video as always. Thank you
@fhsreelfilms
@fhsreelfilms 7 жыл бұрын
"War were declared." I love the little C&Rsenal reference there. :-)
@chzzyg2698
@chzzyg2698 7 жыл бұрын
I was constantly waiting for the old WW1 footage with sound effects everytime you mentioned "war were declared." lol
@Radlerstriker
@Radlerstriker 7 жыл бұрын
Hey Ian when you get to the Berthier MLE-M-16 carbine can you do a complete disassembly of it , including disassembly of all the stock components, I have one of my own which is unfortunately in pieces and I need to make a list of all the parts I need to gather for it. Thanks , Matthew
@eisenkrieg553
@eisenkrieg553 7 жыл бұрын
Thank you Ian for lessons learned. No need to be considered Forgotten Berthiers
@Lilletaitunefois
@Lilletaitunefois 7 жыл бұрын
God I love when Ian speaks French ! This serie on french's berthiers is awesome ! Hope to see some shooting videos of them Keep doing this fantastic work !
@maximelozach9502
@maximelozach9502 7 жыл бұрын
Well, close enough on the tirailleurs, but eh, at least you're making the effort, and give visibility on French small arms history, so no biggie, keep up the good work! Hope we will see a Bergman-length series on it :D
@connorxfor2838
@connorxfor2838 7 жыл бұрын
Should it phonetically be "teer(rolling r)-eye-yer?"
@EvanLax95
@EvanLax95 7 жыл бұрын
Connor Xfor I found that his "leur" wasn't so guttural nor did it trail as much as if he was saying "leuurrrr" When he said the "chin" he should've also had a more accented "sheen" pronunciation. Either way, that's nitpicking at its highest extreme and the amount of love and respect Ian gives French small arms is unmatched by most of my fellow Americans
@maximelozach9502
@maximelozach9502 7 жыл бұрын
in phonetical alphabet, it would give you [tiʁaiəʁ], so the nitpicking is around the pronounciation of the "aill" part which sounded more like "euil", and maybe the "eur" where the "E" sounded a bit exagerated, but as was said, he's trying, and I kinda don't care, given it's 3 seconds on more than 12min of quality content.
@Zorglub1966
@Zorglub1966 7 жыл бұрын
try :TI - RA - YEUR like "heure" (hour)
@ch0k1ngh4z4rd
@ch0k1ngh4z4rd 7 жыл бұрын
Ian needs to do a 2 gun match with a Berthier rifle and a Bergmann pistol. Memetastic
@demonprinces17
@demonprinces17 4 жыл бұрын
So good watching again
@EuropeYear1917
@EuropeYear1917 7 жыл бұрын
"... until, of course, War Were Declared." - Othias from C&Rsenal (** cue video clips of WWI with big orange lettering over the top that says "War Were Declared"**)
@davidwallace5738
@davidwallace5738 6 жыл бұрын
Thank you sir!
@hazakdds7366
@hazakdds7366 7 жыл бұрын
Thanks Ian.
@thegoldencaulk2742
@thegoldencaulk2742 7 жыл бұрын
On the subject of the en bloc clip, it really was the cutting edge technology for soldiers of the... less educated variety. The idea that all your ammo is pre-packaged, easy to store, and incredibly fast and simple to load made it almost idiot proof for (relatively) small armies like the Austro-Hungarians in WW1 to massive super-powers like the United States in WW2. But man, that inability to partially load seemed to kill the idea. I guess you could say it sort of lives on as the detachable box magazine, in a way.
@anthonyclark9159
@anthonyclark9159 7 жыл бұрын
TheGoldenCaulk as it should, considering it's a much better system.
@JB-ym4up
@JB-ym4up 7 жыл бұрын
Stuff clip in rifle. Work bolt. Fire gun. Amen. Gun Jesus has spoken.
@MrBioniclefan1
@MrBioniclefan1 7 жыл бұрын
LMAO
@YCCCm7
@YCCCm7 7 жыл бұрын
It's a magazine, not a clip, dummy. Jeez.
@WolfoftheAurora
@WolfoftheAurora 7 жыл бұрын
No, it's a CLIP that is fed into an internal MAGAZINE. Like a M1 Garand or Mondragon.
@IntroSpectre6x3
@IntroSpectre6x3 7 жыл бұрын
@Wolf You're missing the joke.
@donn7261
@donn7261 7 жыл бұрын
Ian, did you see that really nice Dutch Beaumont Model 1871 bolt action, that RIA has in the next auction ? It's the first one I've ever seen.
@GeraudRulz
@GeraudRulz 7 жыл бұрын
Gun Jesus has brought us a new video!
@juggr-naut3196
@juggr-naut3196 7 жыл бұрын
praise the lord
@TheMrPeteChannel
@TheMrPeteChannel 7 жыл бұрын
Geraud Sansom Amen!
@daisyruin
@daisyruin 7 жыл бұрын
Pass the ammunition.
@jeffengland2791
@jeffengland2791 7 жыл бұрын
Hallelujah!
@DaveSmiffy
@DaveSmiffy 7 жыл бұрын
mon Dieu. We love gun Jesus.
@shermonruler
@shermonruler 7 жыл бұрын
What was the purpose of the battle sight zero at ~9:45? Was it just easier to use in close ranges or something?
@balood
@balood 7 жыл бұрын
who disliked this video and why??????
@okaro6595
@okaro6595 7 жыл бұрын
Some Boche.
@SmilingJack626
@SmilingJack626 4 жыл бұрын
A heretic.
@plitterusmaximus
@plitterusmaximus 7 жыл бұрын
hes so wellspoken.
@CaptainGrief66
@CaptainGrief66 7 жыл бұрын
Can't wait to see the WWI versions or the ones with the 5 shot mag (1907/15?)
@jodc2760
@jodc2760 7 жыл бұрын
The 07/15 is with a 3 shot mag, the M16 (or 1916) is with a 5 shots mag.
@sitnam9054
@sitnam9054 7 жыл бұрын
Hey Ian, any reason you didnt start out the series with the Gras or the Lebel
@tatache5971
@tatache5971 3 жыл бұрын
I dream of an Indochina Berthier with a Berthier mousqueton saber bayonet. I wonder if they are compatible.
@jodc2760
@jodc2760 7 жыл бұрын
Actually the colonials (Indochinese, Senegalese, others) used Kropatschek mle.1878 alongside their Gras 1874. Thank you
@TheRogueWolf
@TheRogueWolf 7 жыл бұрын
It's funny that every recorded world-record sniper kill (except for one, at 3.5km) has been under 2.5km, almost every one using specialized modern weapons and ammo and top-of-the-line equipment... yet the bolt-action rifles of that era were sighted with the apparent expectation that any random conscript should be able to make killing shots at that distance with iron sights.
@blakebramley9171
@blakebramley9171 7 жыл бұрын
Two words: volley fire
@martinflahertyv9353
@martinflahertyv9353 4 жыл бұрын
How much would a 'Ok' condition 1902 bertheir go for nowadays?
@Gunsbeerfreedom87
@Gunsbeerfreedom87 7 жыл бұрын
War were declared.
@SNOUPS4
@SNOUPS4 7 жыл бұрын
Why 23.99 dollars and not just 24.00 for the shirt? I mean, I do actually know why, but come on, trying to perform such a mind trick is not really necessary with us fans... :) Anyway, thank you for a grat series of videos, Ian, you're the best and we love what you do!
@Renma2010
@Renma2010 7 жыл бұрын
I wish I could afford to travel and wasn't terrified of it, because I'd love to go to a meet up. I really enjoy your videos because I too have a legitimate passion for firearms, mostly in terms of the mechanics, design, sounds (all the little intricate sounds firearms make essentially) and history. Watching your videos just sort of fills me with knowledge that honestly I don't know I could get anywhere else. Anyway, really great videos
@JohnsonLobster
@JohnsonLobster 7 жыл бұрын
"Tirailleurs" is just the word that was used for colonial troops (up until WW2), it's not to do with sharpshooting.
@vrisbrianm4720
@vrisbrianm4720 7 жыл бұрын
Tirailleur can be translated as skirmisher or sharpshooter. It was just a military designation, they weren't necessary have to perform these roles
@tamirspivak9434
@tamirspivak9434 7 жыл бұрын
When a video about 2 guns is shorter than a video about their 1 predecessor
@charlesinglin
@charlesinglin 7 жыл бұрын
Who can fathom the thinking of ordnance departments? It seems like the Berthier, especially after they finally got a five round clip, was a better rifle than the Lebel, yet, it gradually became accepted by way of equipping troops who "didn't need" the standard infantry rifle.
@davidtong2776
@davidtong2776 7 жыл бұрын
"war were declared" LOL Love it.
@MrKawabonga96
@MrKawabonga96 7 жыл бұрын
What type of bayonet did the M.le 1907 use?
@ForgottenWeapons
@ForgottenWeapons 7 жыл бұрын
A spike like the Lebel, but with a locking system like the artillery/1892 Berthier.
@ROGUE-Two-Actual
@ROGUE-Two-Actual 7 жыл бұрын
Wonder if any of these kinds of rifles ended getting used in WWII in the African theater, and when the japanese invaded Indochina/Vietnam. Or if the indo ones were even saw use into the Vietnam war by Vietcong. I know a number of left over Japanese weapons were used by VC during the war.
@sawyere2496
@sawyere2496 4 жыл бұрын
A huge proportion of VC weapons were French
@Ben_not_10
@Ben_not_10 7 жыл бұрын
he said "War were declared" YESSSSSS!
@doctoreff1
@doctoreff1 7 жыл бұрын
Were any of these modern rifles made in Charleville? I use Charleville flintlock muskets to reenact the French and Indian war, as a colonial French Marine and I use them for Rev War as a soldier of the Continental Line. "Vive Le Roi"
@Zorglub1966
@Zorglub1966 7 жыл бұрын
Hi, The factory has closed down in 1836, considered as too close from north and east borders.
@dndboy13
@dndboy13 7 жыл бұрын
Short Soldiers? Ive seen that movie
@gyalpoirgyud4759
@gyalpoirgyud4759 7 жыл бұрын
You're making me want to reinstall Verdun.
@johnyricco1220
@johnyricco1220 7 жыл бұрын
Hey look a split stock. Never seen that on a non-Arisaka before.
@kevinoliver3083
@kevinoliver3083 11 ай бұрын
You know you've watched too many of Ian's videos, when you look at a cartouche on a stock and say out loud "that's lovely". Seriously, I have learnt to appreciate French weapons. I still think they make some odd decisions, but now I understand why!
@SpectreDM
@SpectreDM 7 жыл бұрын
I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Ian McCollum, the Messiah of Firearms, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers and sisters, some from Kalashnikov’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Browning”; another, “I follow Garand”; another, “I follow Stoner”; still another, “I follow McCollum.” Is McCollum divided? Was Browning crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Browning?
@corvetteguy1980
@corvetteguy1980 10 ай бұрын
A lot of Indo-China ones saw service in Vietnam
@adonoghuea02
@adonoghuea02 7 жыл бұрын
Is that N a nitro proof?
@ForgottenWeapons
@ForgottenWeapons 7 жыл бұрын
No, it means the rifle was rechambered for thew 1932N cartridge. I will discuss that in a later video.
@adonoghuea02
@adonoghuea02 7 жыл бұрын
Ah, forgot they had already adopted nitro with the 8mm Lebel.
@l.f.c9973
@l.f.c9973 3 жыл бұрын
Wa iz im french british me dad is from monaco an me mum is from liverpool i was born in monaco grew up in liverpool i have duel citzenship i speak both languages and me grandad was a officer in the senaglise tiruraliers
@Mildcat743
@Mildcat743 7 жыл бұрын
If you had to march to war with a French bolt gun today, would you rather a Lebel, an m16 Berthier, or a MAS 36?
@seanwarnock9757
@seanwarnock9757 7 жыл бұрын
OK, kind of off topic of French rifles but Ian, what got you started in firearm history? Personally my love of history got started from interwar Battleships in particular German and U.S. What got you going with small arms, was it French small arms or something else?
@vguyver2
@vguyver2 7 жыл бұрын
He didn't just see them as a kid, Ian's father collected them.
@Filion91
@Filion91 7 жыл бұрын
An approximate pronunciation for the Tirailleurs Indochinois would be "tee-rah-yuhrr -- han-doh-she-nwa"
@itsconnorstime
@itsconnorstime 7 жыл бұрын
Did Indochinese troops in ww1 wear metal conical helmets?
@Isaaclichtenstein
@Isaaclichtenstein 7 жыл бұрын
I just think it's kind of hilarious they needed special rifles for the Indo-Chinese troops because they were short... XD
@brucemccreary38
@brucemccreary38 7 жыл бұрын
Isaac lichtenstein Randy Newman wrote a song in the 1980's called "Short People," a wonderful song.
@Isaaclichtenstein
@Isaaclichtenstein 7 жыл бұрын
@Bruce McCreary , i just watched it. thank you very much for blessing me with this wonderful song.
@scottroberts3158
@scottroberts3158 7 жыл бұрын
I smell another bergman saga
@serceew3326
@serceew3326 7 жыл бұрын
Gun jesus at it again.
@smarthomereviews-smarthome2643
@smarthomereviews-smarthome2643 7 жыл бұрын
Nice
@royperkins3851
@royperkins3851 7 жыл бұрын
irony kept the tube magazine for home service, give colonial troops fast loading clip fed rifles? does sound a little fishy!
@vstaritz
@vstaritz 7 жыл бұрын
Looked up one of them indonesian on the internet and it's about 4.5k$ rip
@martinflahertyv9353
@martinflahertyv9353 4 жыл бұрын
ChocoboXii00 Lmao really?? I got one for 275$
@MrGrenadeMcBoom
@MrGrenadeMcBoom 7 жыл бұрын
If you're going to say "War were declared" you have to throw in the cut with all the black and white footage.
@basp-ef7jx
@basp-ef7jx 3 жыл бұрын
Why wouldn't they just issue the carbines?
@WangMingGe
@WangMingGe 13 күн бұрын
They still needed something long enough for bayonet fighting, I presume - also a lot of European carbines at the time could not mount a bayonet (not sure if this applies to berthiers).
@fiasco7P
@fiasco7P 7 жыл бұрын
You could ask a french personne to says the french words. They would probably like to do this.
@T_P56
@T_P56 7 жыл бұрын
Press f for more french rifles.
@doctoreff1
@doctoreff1 7 жыл бұрын
"Vive le frère."
@colonthree
@colonthree 7 жыл бұрын
Ian is /cm/ :3c
@chhtt5532
@chhtt5532 7 жыл бұрын
Can you translate the video in french please
@ForgottenWeapons
@ForgottenWeapons 7 жыл бұрын
Sorry, but I speak only a tiny bit of French. Eventually, I would like to make a version of this series spoken in French, but that will not be possible for a while.
@chhtt5532
@chhtt5532 7 жыл бұрын
Forgotten Weapons It's a shame a lot of french people are interested in your video, luckily that i speak english enough to watch your video
@jessesands4099
@jessesands4099 4 жыл бұрын
The Rifles used to police French Colonial Rule in the 1890s and early 1900s!🙂🔫🔫🇫🇷🇸🇳🇻🇳🇰🇭🇱🇦
@genericpersonx333
@genericpersonx333 7 жыл бұрын
A long and rambling story is about the only accurate description of the development and procurement of military firearms.
@reedpond6867
@reedpond6867 7 жыл бұрын
WHEN I WAS ALL OF 6 MY GRANDFATHER GAVE ME AN OLD FRENCH RIFLE!!! IT WAS A 1907/15 BERTHIERS THAT HIS BROTHER BROUGHT BACK FROM WW1. I SHOT UP EVERY ROUND OF REMINGTON 8MM LEBEL AMMO I COULD GET MY HANDS ON!!! I WORE OUT THE CLIPS ONCE I STARTED ROLLING MY OWN AMMO!!! I SHOT A LOT OF WOODCHUCKS WITH MY BERTHIERS!!!
@joseantoniolago5857
@joseantoniolago5857 7 жыл бұрын
I'm a atheist but believe in gun Jesus.
@jeffengland2791
@jeffengland2791 7 жыл бұрын
Gun Jesus is spreading his message to the heathens one video at a time. lol
@Moondog66602
@Moondog66602 7 жыл бұрын
Canadian Metis Man most people I know have no idea I'm an atheist.
@BestWeedVideos
@BestWeedVideos 7 жыл бұрын
Me too
@christianterrill3503
@christianterrill3503 7 жыл бұрын
All hail gun jesus
@ericksolum
@ericksolum 7 жыл бұрын
Ian, did you know you were starting a cult when you started this channel?
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