Colonizing White Dwarfs
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Stars give warmth and light to planets and make life possible, until they run out of fuel and die themselves, but could these dead stars still enable life to dwell around them?
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Credits:
Colonizing White Dwarfs
Episode 444; April 25, 2024
Produced, Written & Narrated by: Isaac Arthur
Graphics:
Jarred Eagley
Jeremy Jozwik
Justin Dixon
Ken York
Steve Bowers
Music Courtesy of
Epidemic Sound epidemicsound.com/creator
Stellardrone, "Red Giant", "The Earth Is Blue", "Eternity"
@justarandomname420 12 күн бұрын
Earliest settler to a white dwarf!
@mattparker9726 11 күн бұрын
LETS FREAKIN GOOOOOOO!
@uncleanunicorn4571 12 күн бұрын
This will add a lot of nuance to my sci-fi novel during the fight Scene inside of a derelict white dwarf dyson sphere.
@jsbrads1 11 күн бұрын
I started writing Metal Stars after hearing Iron Stars from Isaac. It is about a civilization that uses fusion inside stars to create massive amounts of any element in a galaxy wide economy. Inspired by his video, but not really the same subject 😂
@isaacarthurSFIA 9 күн бұрын
Sounds like a neat setting already, good luck!
@uncleanunicorn4571 8 күн бұрын
@@jsbrads1 I've often wondered if you could use the energy from stellar fusion to power more fusion to power more fusion for yet heavier elements than the star would normally produce before going supernova?
@uncleanunicorn4571 8 күн бұрын
@@isaacarthurSFIA thanks. I think a habitation Zone sandwiched between two layers would be safest.
@jsbrads1 8 күн бұрын
@@uncleanunicorn4571 best idea is to get as close to the weight as possible, if you want to make oxygen you want to start pre Red Giant. Also you need to change the star’s composition if you want it to make oxygen instead of carbon. Then you use star lifting satellites to prevent it from going Red Giant and maintain the right pressure to speed up the oxygen creation and you steal enough of the unwanted ingredients that would run away the reaction in the wrong direction. Basic fusion star farming. 🧑🌾
@ogrehaslayers605 12 күн бұрын
"white dwarves aren't very bright' Surprised Tyrion Lannister face 😮
@SkyFly19853 12 күн бұрын
Feels like Civ 4 Beyond the Earth...
@viperswhip 9 күн бұрын
A far worse game than Alpha Centauri, somehow they can't seem to remake that. I think a relaunch is in order but the rights are probably owned by EA or something.
@Hell_Hound_Actual 11 күн бұрын
@Isaac Arthur I just wanted to say congratulations to you and your wife on the anniversary of your marriage as well as the successes that you and your family have achieved. Thank you for also inspiring me, as a disabled combat veteran (former Air Force Special Warfare SR/ SOWT Recon Specialist), to keep focused on the things that I can still do in life, as opposed to what I no longer can do, and keeping a realistic, yet positive view on things yet to come. You and your content truly mean a lot to me, despite not knowing you personally.
@littlegravitas9898 12 күн бұрын
"Your place in the sun"
@SashaXXY 12 күн бұрын
One problem with a glowing metal shell in a vacuum is that metal tends to sublime at elevated temperatures even if it isn't close to its melting point. Without an atmosphere we have nothing to counter that vapor pressure, which means that the degradation of the sphere will be that much more rapid. So the metal vapor will need to be continuously re-captured and re-applied to the shell not only on the outside but also on the inside.
@MarsStarcruiser 10 күн бұрын
Can that really occur all that well at 350,000 times Earth’s gravity though?🤔
@HobDobson 12 күн бұрын
With all the possibilties for statites, lagites, etc., I'd think that a civilization living "on" a white dwarf could use also use the remnant as the core of a stellar engine. If your civilization is going to be hanging around the galaxy for a few orbits, you might as well add steering to your space yacht! (or terraforming + colonization barge) It could be useful to add an inner side wall to a white dwarf bracelet. White dwarf stars generate cosmic rays, which in turn can result in cosmic ray spallation of cosmogenic, helium-3, lithium, beryllium and boron. The yield might be low, but protons absorbed by gasses like nitrogen, oxygen, and argon are protons that aren't hitting your infrastructure.
@cannonfodder4376 12 күн бұрын
Most informative as always, Isaac. And Happy Fourth Anniversary!
@oliviamaynard9372 12 күн бұрын
"Most stars are younger than the universe." lol I am 99.8% that was a joke.
@TheReaverOfDarkness 12 күн бұрын
It is, and it's probably a reference to certain stars such as the Methuselah Star.
@HuxleysShaggyDog 12 күн бұрын
Are much younger than
@JamesGonzalez-em9un 12 күн бұрын
It's a reference to the new James Webb photos.
@br3030 12 күн бұрын
haha nice 🤠
@oliviamaynard9372 12 күн бұрын
@@JamesGonzalez-em9un Thanks for explaining it to me
@iainballas 12 күн бұрын
One day, I'd love a video that's just Isaac doing a stream-of-thought video, rambling about whatever topic comes to mind in the moment and going on endless tangents. I love listening to this channel in the background, at work and while playing video games.
@tianzhou1244 12 күн бұрын
No, it's the planning and work behind that makes this channel good...
@GulmoharBloom 12 күн бұрын
the livestreams are kinda like that
@martinwulf8253 11 күн бұрын
Interviews with John Michael Godier also resemble that
@MechanicaMenace 10 күн бұрын
@@martinwulf8253JMG is great but sometimes, with certain recurring guests, he could do with Issac metaphorically sat alongside going on tangents as a polite way of calling bullshit.
@vapormissile 12 күн бұрын
"most stars are younger than the universe." That needed some elaboration.
@phaedrus000 12 күн бұрын
he said "most stars are _a lot_ younger than the universe"
@seriousmaran9414 12 күн бұрын
There are no known stars older than the universe, although some may look like candidates. 😊
@TheReaverOfDarkness 12 күн бұрын
Further reading: Methuselah Star, Crisis in Cosmology *_IN THAT ORDER, TOO_*
@ConstantlyDamaged 12 күн бұрын
In the style of xkcd: *[citation needed]*
@00BillyTorontoBill 12 күн бұрын
except for like 5 in star trek episodes that have Q.
@Eldagusto 12 күн бұрын
Man someday I want to hear you chat about your Exalt game using pathfinder 2.0. Great episode again, wasn’t expecting the wire bracelet as the method but makes sense.
@erichtomanek4739 12 күн бұрын
Within the first two minutes of the episode: Space pizza is good pizza especially when one of the key toppings is space pineapple!
@BigZebraCom 10 күн бұрын
You only say this to hurt me.
@mike-0451 9 күн бұрын
People who cannot comprehend sweet and salty flavor combinations don’t deserve to comment on Hawaiian pizza.
@innerstrengthcheck 12 күн бұрын
These are always so well timed with the end of my late shift! Thanks for the cooldown 😊
@tomboyd7109 12 күн бұрын
Happy Anniversary! Enjoy your trip.
@ultrahd3388 12 күн бұрын
This episode of White Dwarf should have been released WAY earlier in SFIA history.
@milkibearmilkibear 12 күн бұрын
Wow, another amazing video! Thank you so much!!!❤
@BigZebraCom 10 күн бұрын
I was going to colonize a white dwarf -- but things got really busy at work.
@inventist 12 күн бұрын
6:10 Here for the dog references to the Sirius star system.
@user-bh4ge1pm2t 11 күн бұрын
Congratulations on the wedding anniversary. I hope you two enjoy your "away from the kids " time.
@czarkbrooks 12 күн бұрын
Earth spinning the wrong way in intro
@BigZebraCom 10 күн бұрын
I noticed that in a previous video. Apparently, it is hard to notice such mistakes during production and editing as the video window only makes up a small portion of the monitor.
@seditt5146 12 күн бұрын
I think our notion of Habitable zone needs a major overhaul. White Dwarfs should impose significant tidal effects should they not? As a result, the Habitable zone feels like we need to start including elliptical orbits that would see the planet stretched and heated. We currently behave as though EM radiation is the only energy source life uses but even on Earth that is not true, and some believe life even started around a totally different energy source which tidal forces would provide.
@Cyberwar101 11 күн бұрын
Yes, but tidal forces generate are only harvestable by life when it is simultaneously in an area of high vulcanism and not instable enough to destroy the environment. Also, it only seems to happen under the water. Solar is a vastly more usable and stable source, which is why life only uses geothermal where sunlight is non-existent. You can't run large complex ecologies on it without significant technological interference, such as using geothermal for powering lights.
@user-xm5ss6gl4s 11 күн бұрын
Blessings to your family, and enjoy your time away - excelsior!
@isaacarthurSFIA 11 күн бұрын
Thank you so much!
@vi6ddarkking 12 күн бұрын
Hypothetically speaking couldn't we use tidal forces by orbiting Brown Dwarves or if you're feeling brave. Another White Dwarf around the White Dwarf to keep it warm all but indefinitely. Using the heat to power our system that keep the orbits stable.
@jasonlow6943 12 күн бұрын
Very interesting stuff... I hope you have a wonderful vacation.
@NineSeptims 12 күн бұрын
Thanks for always making my Thursdays for so many years. 💙
@ixi-cn7uq 10 күн бұрын
Chandelier cities! That's what I instantly thought after hearing that when a white dwarf has the right spectrum a shell around it where the temperature is right would have about Earth gravity. I imagine a view out of the window with the sun somewhere below, lots of mirrors to reflect the sudlight the right way, shades to block it and lots of spaces with glass floors. Sadly guess such cities would probably have to be airtight. The outer side of the shell can have radiators and industrial facilities lit up by reflected sunlight. And yeah, quite high escape velocity around all this setup...
@60508 12 күн бұрын
Funny you mention RPGs and world building, your channel always gives me amazing ideas for world building sci fi settings.
@Nikki_Catnip 10 күн бұрын
Hey Isaac I can tell your speech therapy is going well! Your progress is so impressive! Your efforts aren’t unnoticed. ❤ Also, Happy anniversary! 🎉
@TheMrBeaucephus 11 күн бұрын
Planetary nebulae are an excellent source of galactic nutrients. Part of a balanced cosmic breakfast.
@bluekoi455 12 күн бұрын
Congratulations on your anniversary, have an enlightening vacation 🤘🍺
@Michael-ju7xu 12 күн бұрын
Why did I read this as "Decolonizing white dwarves"
@UpperDarbyDetailing 12 күн бұрын
Watching too much CNN and MSNBC probably.
@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115 12 күн бұрын
Hopefully you're not in the vicinity of college xir/zem people
@comentedonakeyboard 9 күн бұрын
White Dwarfs are microagressions😂
@anthonyhargis6855 12 күн бұрын
2:52 ". . . our sun is expected to grow gradually hotter . . . " Man, you do not want to open that door, because I WILL walk through it. ROFLMAO
@corywilliams2255 12 күн бұрын
Congrats! And here's to many more years of joy.
@cerealata9035 12 күн бұрын
New Isaac Arthur upload let's go!
@fooman1188 12 күн бұрын
Happy Anniversary, Amigo!
@DNihilHEAVYIndustries 12 күн бұрын
Awesome! I didn't even know 1/32nd of the information and I'm only 4 minutes in and am familiar with physics and cosmology. Can't wait to see where all this goes! With all the hard science that goes into your video's, I wouldn't be surprised if you had a degree in some form of engineering or mathematics because it would assume to me to be a good futurologist one would have to have a degree in something along those lines. I've been listening to you for close to 8-9 years and every subject I've watched you cover has been as informative as it has been entertaining which i could imagine it being difficult to pull off considering the subject matter. Keep up the amazing work! 💙⭐🌟✨💥🌌
@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115 12 күн бұрын
I was born too early...😢
@bengunderson712 5 күн бұрын
I was born 😢
@cblimes 12 күн бұрын
thanks isaac. 3 years on
@Novastar.SaberCombat 11 күн бұрын
Good luck. Yer gonna NEED it.
@imogen1 11 күн бұрын
If I have learned one thing from Isaac Arthur videos, it's that I am 100% investing when Tungsten Shells R Us goes public.
@glyngreen538 12 күн бұрын
I remember White Dwarf - good magazine. Could we colonise a magazine? Maybe become words based lifeforms? A bit like the Shifts from Doctor Who.
@andyf4292 12 күн бұрын
before it became a games workshop sales brochure
@quentinking4351 12 күн бұрын
Looking at how we use our words on social media, I would recommend against it.
@galaxya40s95 12 күн бұрын
Happy anniversary!
@ThirtytwoJ 11 күн бұрын
Note from humans of the future found floating in space- Hey we found this "useless" dwarf star your little planet is orbiting and decided to take it as a nightlight for our massive colony ship. Hope youre cool with that. Btw your planet smells like farts, you should do something about that. Maybe burn the methane to keep warm. Their response "humans really are just the worst.. lets go eat them."
@peterxyz3541 12 күн бұрын
As long as the White Dwarf have food replicators like the Jupiter Mining Corp's Red Dwarf
@stephenpointon 12 күн бұрын
Actually the JMC replicators were just vending machines with poor quality AI's (sometimes with speech impediments (so i guess they would be cool around here))
@williammckinney4090 12 күн бұрын
Happy Anniversary!
@palfers1 11 күн бұрын
I take it you realise that the bracelet is metastable. Its lowest potential energy state corresponds to one side touching the star's surface.
@Rangera-ct1xu 11 күн бұрын
congrats to you and your wife. i wish you many more happy years together.
@dgw4049 12 күн бұрын
1:30... laughing cause we got two astronauts... indoors... with suits on... about to eat pizza. Makes no sense.
@BoringAngler 12 күн бұрын
The reasons behind this scene happening should be a wondrous joke thread somewhere.
@jimc.goodfellas226 9 күн бұрын
Anything over 28 minutes requires drink and a snack
@Fridaey13txhOktober 12 күн бұрын
What about dropping a mini black hole into a White Dwarf? One about the mass of Neptune on Sirius B?
@ThirtytwoJ 11 күн бұрын
"That sounds reecist." -Most western "educated" idiots.. probably.
@Psillytripper 9 күн бұрын
I was on lsd many many years back and had the idea of simply moving earth further back in the solar system b4 the sun starts to expand then moving it in much closer after it retracts. This way a care taker species could try to keep earth perpetually going[might have to also restart the earths core or install electro magnetic sheilds when the core slows too much]
@user-bh4ge1pm2t 11 күн бұрын
4:21 So it would seem that one advantage to colonizing white dwarfs would be the planetary nebula where you have lots of loose, readily accessible materials. Easy pickings as it were, naturally occurring star lifting.
@Area51byDaveReale 12 күн бұрын
Happy Anniversary! :)
@nathanielbyrne1132 12 күн бұрын
I like the very faint radio signals in the music
@ricorommeldumaplin4822 12 күн бұрын
I would love to see a video of colonizing habitable exo moons in the future
@levirivers2772 12 күн бұрын
Happy Anniversary to your family.
@ApocGenesis 10 күн бұрын
100,000 years from now, some inheritor civilization will look at your videos the same way we look at Jules Verne and Issac Asimov
@andrewcole4843 12 күн бұрын
I still love the dying earth Jack Vance genre.
@Bluefoot65 12 күн бұрын
could star lifting extend the life of yellow dwarf stage our sun is currently in?
@markd.s.8625 12 күн бұрын
if you can harvest fast enough, yes,
@Jay_Scott_Raymond 12 күн бұрын
On this fine Ar-Thursday, I ask what's you favorite pencil and paper RPG system? My current favorite is Savage Worlds. Still got a soft spot for RuneQuest also. As for DnD/Pathfinder, while my group does play them, I find they make figuring out the result of a combat excessively complex.
@stanislavstoimenov1729 12 күн бұрын
Thank you for giving home to those three kids! They're lucky.
@juicedsky688 12 күн бұрын
We’ll get to colony talk soon
@Dac85 11 күн бұрын
As always, seems like you could expend a fraction of the effort to make oneil cylinders and get more surface area for effort.
@cheradenine1980 12 күн бұрын
OMG I’m grabbing a drink and a snack… BRB
@MrBishop077 10 күн бұрын
Is it possible to have a stellar mass 'rocky body'? meaning something approaching the weight of a star but instead of gas its mostly rock. If such a thing existed I imagine it would look like some kind of dim star due to the residual heat of formation and radioactive elements ... but what would you call such a planet/star? It does not seem to quite meet the requirements for a brown dwarf. any advice on this subject would be quite helpful.
@kennycarter5682 12 күн бұрын
the white dwarf photos being surrounded by debris and asteroids. a white dwarf system could be wonderful for mining
@martijncox2364 12 күн бұрын
The mentioned temperatures are a bit misleading. A white dwarf with temperature of 40. 000k doesn't mean you need a star with a surface temperature of 40.000 k. The suns surface temperature is "only" 5778 k, but the core temperature is estimated to be around 10^7 k. Thus when the suns will become a white dwarf it will also at some point be a white dwarf (or something like that) with a surface temperature of 40.000 k. The HR-diagram is kinda misleading with surface temperature. It is the only temperature we can observe using blackbody spectra, but the fusion of a star happens within the core. When you look at the path a star takes around the HR-diagram after it leaves the main sequence. The surface temperature is a good indicator of how far you can look within the star (in other words how much of it shell it has shedded). It would be awesome to see a HR-diagram with core temperature instead of surface temperature.
@tturi2 12 күн бұрын
is the thinner than air outer shell on a red giant actually hotter or colder than normal space? because it can convect heat, can it cool off more or does it just keep heating up?
@comentedonakeyboard 9 күн бұрын
Colonists should make absolutely sure not to drop their waste on the white dwarf
@aceofspace1686 10 күн бұрын
Hey Issac, just asking what are your sources for the video?
@nyyotam4057 12 күн бұрын
Guess ppl living on such a bracelet would have a "flat bracelet society".
@seanhewitt603 12 күн бұрын
Awesome.
@isaacarthurSFIA 12 күн бұрын
Thanks!
@alfredotto7525 12 күн бұрын
I hope you have a nice vacation.
@cornelstamate2537 12 күн бұрын
i looked hard for this scenario on youtube and i havent find it.
@bespoken2017 12 күн бұрын
fusion at its core 🤣🤣🤣🤣
@werre2 12 күн бұрын
A sleeve around a white dwarf? We would have all that tech and still worry about 24h cycles :)
@hibbs1712 12 күн бұрын
NOT THE ADVERTISING PREDICT ON THE SUNSHELL I hate this timeline
@garyuntermeyer7976 12 күн бұрын
I'm curious what the three question marks at the end of the phone number might be.
@jasonmorello1374 11 күн бұрын
Personally ,I am surprised you didn't pull a variant of Niven's Smoke Ring series, after all if have earth like gravity nearly, and a centripetal path, maybe you could have a gas volume in in earth like pressure.
@fortgaming9058 12 күн бұрын
ooh, I'm excited for this episode. Been waiting for a long time. edit: not disappointed
@dragonturtle2703 12 күн бұрын
Do neutron stars also cool like that, or is there some sort of decay process going on there to power them?
@isaacarthurSFIA 11 күн бұрын
They also cool
@dragonturtle2703 11 күн бұрын
@@isaacarthurSFIA interesting. Thanks.
@whosagreekgod4135 11 күн бұрын
Hold up it’s been 4 years since you got married??? How long have i been watching your channel... I remember when you announced that you where getting married. How time flies... 🤣🤣🤣
@isaacarthurSFIA 11 күн бұрын
It sure does :) the show turns ten in September
@sarcasmo57 11 күн бұрын
Lets do it .
@akigreus9424 12 күн бұрын
Chug 5-10 jupiters together and cause a brown dwarf warm enough for very close by planets and moons to have liquid oceans and chuck every protoplanet into a orbit around it and leave the solar system counter revolution and return just as sun is going supernova and observe results and then colonize white dwarf and form a dual star.
@ianyboo 12 күн бұрын
There seems to be this obsession with getting gravity as earth-like as possible. And I'm over here just dying to live in low g so I can jump around like a maniac and have fun and play sports. I'd be pissed if I got up to a space hotel and found out that the accommodations were exactly 1G. Forget that I want something different lol
@owenbelezos8369 12 күн бұрын
it's likely that most bedrooms would be set for 1g but most likely there certainly would be altered gravity [probably mostly lower gravity] spots that people could do stuff in.
@comentedonakeyboard 9 күн бұрын
Humans are adapted to Earth Gravity
@LoganKearsley 12 күн бұрын
There is some recently published work suggesting that continued gravitational contraction, as heavier nuclei slowly diffuse towards the core and vice-versa, can slow cooling such that white dwarf habitable zones remain stable for billions of years.
@thomaskalbfus2005 12 күн бұрын
Van Maanen's Star is candidate.
@andreinicodim1622 12 күн бұрын
I have a few questions, maybe not really related to this topic. Should the Universe continue to accelerate in its expansion, after how many years would the Big Rip kill off any civilization at the end of time? Would there be any civilizations left by then living on black hole batteries or would the Big Rip happen before the last black hole has evaporated and entropy had already claimed its victory?
@MarsStarcruiser 10 күн бұрын
No big rip anymore. Dark Energy Survey using hundreds of thousands of galaxies show both increase and decrease of expansion rate at different times. This implies mediation by unknown factor potentially driving and limiting expansion rate, rather than a perpetual acceleration. Even before though, the rip potential with old expansion assumptions were pretty vague though, like 30 billion years
@andreinicodim1622 10 күн бұрын
@@MarsStarcruiser Wiki page on the Big Rip (last update December 2023) says 153 billion years at the earliest but also says that w has not been yet identified to be larger than -1. Got any sources I could see that rule out the big rip? Also what you're saying implies that w would change its value at the same time across the whole universe so whatever is acting on it would be doing it faster than the speed of causality or would imply that its actually a local parameter.
@MarsStarcruiser 10 күн бұрын
@@andreinicodim1622 Wo thats changed, but then again it’s been over a decade since I heard anything about it. Didn’t know anyone still took that hypothesis seriously since 2013-2019 dark energy survey. It’s been non-stop heat-death and then more recently cyclonic/crunch propositions after 2019.
@MarsStarcruiser 10 күн бұрын
@@andreinicodim1622 I don’t know if even the DES shows w change at same time universe wide. On their plot, the variance goes back and forth to indicate something uneven and their results were on averages
@MarsStarcruiser 10 күн бұрын
@@andreinicodim1622 My comment was probably blocked just now because of link. Easiest thing I can point you too is Sabine Hossenfender vid on January 15 earlier this year called “Dark Energy might Change in Time, Making Recollapse More Likely, New Survey Finds”
@dougsinthailand7176 11 күн бұрын
Humans only colonize places where they can get resources of some sort. We explore out of curiosity.
@attalan8732 12 күн бұрын
Run! The White Dwarves are coming to colonise us!
@comentedonakeyboard 9 күн бұрын
Run to the Hills
@user-bd1hl2tu9f 12 күн бұрын
Ok so maybe a stupid question whats the chance, witha large gas giant being a failed star, that the shucked off outer layer of the oarent star increases mass and temperature enough to finish the process and ignite a planet like say jupiter into a full blown star?
@GadZookz 12 күн бұрын
Do stars exchange information?
@sab1751 12 күн бұрын
Great vid, again. But... I gotta say I prefer watching on Nebula, no comment section but hey.
@RyllenKriel 11 күн бұрын
You never mentioned what type of pizza the astronauts were about to eat at the beginning of the video.
@isaacarthurSFIA 11 күн бұрын
Neptunian pepperoni and Martian mushrooms?
@Suzaku455 12 күн бұрын
Question what do call you call an object that orbits around a Brown Dwarf? A Moon or Planet?
@phaedrus000 12 күн бұрын
PMO (planetary mass object)
@BladeTrain3r 12 күн бұрын
Random tangent: the fact giant lumps of cooling iron are going to be among the last things in the universe is kinda metal. FLOATING THROUGH DARKNESS COLD IRON HEARTS ETERNAL PROTONS? DECAY OR NAY?
@mattparker9726 11 күн бұрын
@Isaac Arthur I have always wondered if you could somehow inject a white dwarf with fresh fuel, both hydrogen and helium, what would happen? Say an injection of 50% it's starting mass? ALSO, we have a gaming group too, and have an opening for one more person on our Sunday Hero Quest game. We are currently in the second story, but have had multiple characters killed by the Dirty Xargon. So we would be all starting out on the same basic footing. You are invited if you would like to play with us.
@isaacarthurSFIA 11 күн бұрын
Too busy but thank you very sincerely :) you can inject new fuel but you have to triple it in or cause a nova
@mattparker9726 11 күн бұрын
@@isaacarthurSFIA 😭 Drat! He's seen through my devious plans! We must try again! 🤣🤣 I think I would be more surprised if you WEREN'T too busy.
@jlight7346 12 күн бұрын
Lol the default filler text at 5:17
@theed365 11 күн бұрын
So what you're saying is, the Earth isn't flat...... yet.
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