Common Misconceptions Around Shaping: Why You May Find Dog Training Frustrating

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Күн бұрын

Recently, I asked for your questions about using shaping in dog training, and wow, did you deliver! I’m covering misconceptions about shaping, where shaping went wrong for me in the 90s with my dogs and a wall, what you need to know about successive approximations, and how behavioral blocks set dogs up for success. Plus, I’m answering some of your most popular questions and sharing the steps so you can shape your dog to close a cupboard door.
🐾Key Dog Shaping Points:
00:00 Shaping Dog Behavior with Susan Garrett.
00:43 Successive approximations - beware of cheap behaviors.
01:44 When successive approximations went wrong with my dogs, Twister and Stoni, and a wall in the 90’s.
06:01 Outside the box shaping - behavioral blocks.
07:10 Successful shaping session - start with a hierarchy of reinforcement.
08:16 Location Specific Reinforcement Markers - Reset Cookie.
09:51 ItsYerChoice: teach your dog self-control.
10:47 Focus on Crate Games and Hot Zone.
11:27 Commit to short shaping sessions: 5 sessions that are 1 minute or less.
11:48 Video and Review your shaping - analyze your progress and your dog's behavior.
12:25 Arrange Antecedents: positioning, gestures, and environmental factors create clarity.
14:06 Resist the urge to help - allow the dog to offer behavior.
15:18 1 Minute Evaluation - assess progress and adjust your approach accordingly.
15:29 How to shape your dog to close a cupboard door using behavioral blocks.
16:25 Q1 - Should I be using a non-reward marker when I'm shaping?
16:47 Q2 - What is a good exercise to help a dog to learn to be okay with offering responses? • Use These Simple Shapi...
17:10 Q3 - I've heard the comment, click for action and reward for position. Do you agree?
17:58 Q4 - I try to shape, but my mechanics suck and my dog and I get very frustrated. So, I've heard shaping isn't for novices. Is this true?
18:44 Q5 - Susan, do you cue shaping sessions?
19:02 Q6 - What do you do if the dog keeps getting it wrong?
19:32 Q7 - Does shaping work with all behaviors and tricks that can be taught or shaping only for specific things?
19:42 Q8 - Some things I just can't fathom how to shape.
19:50 Q9 - Does this work with all breeds, even unintelligent breeds?
20:58 Jean Donaldson's ‘Push, Stick, Drop’ • Proofing Vs Generalizi...
Learn How To Play ItsYerChoice: dogsthat.com/y/261/iycsummit
Get Crate Games Online: dogsthat.com/y/261/crategames
Resources:
1. Podcast Episode 259: Use These Simple Shaping Hacks To Expedite Your Dog Training - • Use These Simple Shapi...
2. Podcast Episode: 171: Dog Training With Layered Shaping: Why Classical Conditioning Must Come First - • Dog Training With Laye...
3. Podcast Episode 5: What is Shaping And How Can Dogs Shape Us - • What is Shaping And Ho...
4. Podcast Episode 149: Superstitious Behavior In Dog Training: Beware The Killer Bees! - • Superstitious Behavior...
5. Podcast Episode 69: Clicker Training: Will It Work For Every Dog? - • Clicker Training: Will...
6. Podcast Episode 131: How Would Susan Garrett Plan Your Dog Training Sessions? - • Creating Your Dog Trai...
7. Podcast Episode 157: Dog Body Language: Understanding Canine Communication Signals And Emotions - • Dog Body Language: Und...
8. Podcast Episode 59: Why Your Treats Aren’t Working for Your Dog - • Why Your Treats Aren’t...
9. Podcast Episode 90: Premack, Dog Training and Transfer of Value - • Premack, Dog Training ...
10. Podcast Episode 226: Safe Toys For Dogs And Why To Avoid Tennis Balls And Sticks - • Safe Toys For Dogs And...
11. Podcast Episode 94: How the Best Professional Dog Trainers Use Reinforcement - • How the Best Professio...
12. Podcast Episode 151: How Location Specific Reinforcement Markers Will Improve Your Dog Training! - • How Location Specific ...
13. KZfaq Video: Susan Garrett’s Perch Work Dog Tricks (Pivots and Spins) - • Susan Garrett’s Perch ...
14. Podcast Episode 133: Become Your Own Dog Training Coach With This Video Strategy - • Become Your Own Dog Tr...
15. Podcast Episode 245: Make Dog Training Easy! Quick Guide To Antecedent Arrangements - • Make Dog Training Easy...
16. Podcast Episode 31: 5 Simple Hacks to Help Your Dog Learn Faster (Reinforcement Process) - • 5 Simple Hacks to Help...
17. Podcast Episode 12: When Helping Your Dog is an Illusion - • When Helping Your Dog ...
18. KZfaq Playlist: • Target Training for Do...
19. Podcast Episode 251: Should We All Stop Using Non-Reward Markers In Dog Training? - • Should We All Stop Usi...
20. KZfaq Video: 5 Tips for Dog Trick Training with Susan Garrett - • 5 Tips for Dog Trick T...
21. Podcast Episode 232: Canine Predatory Motor Sequence: Understand Your Dog’s Prey Drive To Enrich Your Life Together - • Canine Predatory Motor...
22. Podcast Episode 184: Proofing Vs Generalizing In Dog Training To Grow Skills And Confidence - • Proofing Vs Generalizi...

Пікірлер: 43

@DogsThat 4 ай бұрын

🐶Check out Podcast Episode 5 and 259 where I go into detail about Shaping: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/j6hddKqFuLLXYHU.html kzfaq.info/get/bejne/hN5kntCCsrqvh2w.html 🎓 Play “ItsYerChoice” 💯% free: dogsthat.com/y/261/iycsummit 👉 And Crate Games is the fun and fast way dogs learn appropriate places to be: dogsthat.com/y/261/crategames

@LJnBodhi 4 ай бұрын

Wow! This is like a Recallers Masterclass❤🐾 I'm going to bookmark this for my training journal and watch it again (and again). Thank you!

@annmobley263 4 ай бұрын

This is a super episode! I've been in Recallers for years, along with Home School the Dog and Wag Nation. I've had a lot of successes with shaping a wide variety of behaviors in my now 5 year old dog, but today, my AHA! moment had to do with successive approximations. Back in the good old days when I was in college, I took a lot of psychology classes and learned about BF Skinner, etc. Unbeknownst to me, the concept of successive approximations was lodged in my brain. Realizing that the concept was lurking stealthily in my head was amazing! What a great way to begin the podcast! Now I understand why to reward "something different" and how to use "behavioral blocks." These two things explain so much! Thanks so much!

@user-hp1gx2uo5m 3 ай бұрын

This is a great episode! Thinning about building blocks really changes everything. We are in crate games and HSTD! ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ Ziggy’s blocks are seat, down, stand, jump, search, cook, hand target, paws on blanket or block, Reinforcement Zone, Hot Zone, understanding (and still growing) IYC, waiting for a release cue, Grab, bring me, Come here (super important), we are working on Go smell and Go play and we are trying to work on calm. I still have some doubts on how to shape calmness, even having seen your previous podcasts. Because Ziggy does is a high drive border collie and she sometimes guards the blanket or gets immediately excited. So my question is how could we teach calm and relaxation without a chill mat for dogs with resource guarding? Thank you for this and all the other podcasts!

@Gemini0601 3 ай бұрын

Can you demonstrate what shaping looks like for AKC CGC exercises? Heel, sit, down, stand, stay, halt, right turn, left turn, about turn, distance recall with sit, etc.

@DogsThat 3 ай бұрын

Hi @Gemini0601 we have videos for the foundations of sit, down, stand, stay in a playlist: kzfaq.info/sun/PLphRRSxcMHy2cY7Fg3MLUaobkSdnVx0jt Our video on dogs listening no matter what applies to the competition ring as well: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/e89gn7p33qepZWQ.html

@notyetvet2124 4 ай бұрын

I would love a video on how to shape foundational obedience such as sit, down, heel, etc.

@DogsThat 4 ай бұрын

Hi, here's how Susan teaches sit and down: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/jbZpfbWYsLKWf58.html and kzfaq.info/get/bejne/e595i66myt2udHk.html And for heel, the foundation is Reinforcement Zone, here's a short video that explains: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/hceFdLaUzMeqcZs.html Happy training!

@OriStory 4 ай бұрын

Thank you for another awesome episode. I love this and answers so many of my questions and my gut feeling about successive approximation with my own dog. He gets frustrated and confused and will start offering whatever else he knows or what could get him a cookie/reward. I just don't know how else to do things. I also see it with my client's dogs and humans. I'm looking forward to learning more and how to make things better for my dog. A question I have for you is how do I help clients who insist their dogs are stubborn, stupid, etc. I try to help them see things differently but it comes down to "it's the breed" "they're stupid" "they are SO stubborn" and I don't know how to gently work through this with dog owners. I work for a R+ dog training facility and I really want to help dogs and their people the best I can. I would also like to ask if you have resources for those typical what people would say are "stubborn breeds" unfortunately my area is experiencing a BOOM in Great Pyrenees and Live Stock Guardian Dogs. Rescues, oops litters, back yard breeders, etc. I suppose this ties into the first question but I feel the approach needs to be different with these breeds due to their nature. I have a Great Pyrenees mix myself that I rescued and I've worked VERY hard with him and your methods are the only ones that worked for us. I would just love to read more on how handle clients and the approaches for some of these "I was bred to think for myself" type dog breeds. Thank you so much.

@Mtfrederick 4 ай бұрын

Questions for future episodes: When in the shaping process do you add cues? Could you send ( or do you already have?) a chart of your most common hand and corresponding verbal cues? HSTD? Rio's behavioral building blocks: Sit, down, "take a seat"- hot zone verbal with pointing hand cue, hand target, search, IYC. Aha! Lightbulb moment 🥳. All of the beginner games in HSTD are coming together for me.

@TiaMurchieBeyma 4 ай бұрын

Super helpful! Could you consider a podcast in which you show ways to shape an eventual "pick up the basket" trick? Shaping worked well for touching basket handle with snoot, but then utterly stalled, so I switched to working on just "take it" for holding in the mouth a silicone stick (about the same diameter as the basket handle). This mannerly adult dog does not like to mouth non-food objects and doesn't yet play much with toys EXCEPT soccer ball retrieve and tug. That means no household destruction, which we appreciate, but taking things in his mouth is not a natural go-to for him for shaping. We started with a slitted toy snake with food inside, a genius idea from a local trainer, then swapped for a silicone stick. We are trying to shape toward longer holds. We're at the point of a reliable, open-mouth "take it" with some tooth contact and sometimes even 2-3 light teeth "chatters," whether the stick is held or laid across objects, and in various positions. No soap if it's on the floor. He won't pick it up, which was a great idea for extending the hold, but hasn't worked. No real hold yet. I will start to video my shaping efforts tonight, per your suggestions in this podcast. (In a parallel vein, I'm echoing the silicone stick shaping with the cue "take it" for beloved night time dental treat and nap time duck leg. That's getting a firmer but still very loose hold, followed by joyful consumption.) Dog had a good dental cleaning a few months ago, so we believe no mouth pain or dental issues. He just doesn't WANT to mouth or hold an object without a good reason -- and I don't blame him! Gotta give him good reasons.

@TiaMurchieBeyma 4 ай бұрын

PS: Working through HSTD and love it!

@alisonbolt9343 4 ай бұрын

This is brilliant - thank you! I'm just starting to shape my young dog on the competition obedience exercises. I'm finding it really hard because I changed from lure/coercion training with previous dogs to HS and Recallers with this dog and I've been trying to figure out how to apply Recallers thinking when I don't have step by step instructions! Off to make my behaviour block list ...

@DogsThat 4 ай бұрын

Thank you Alison, you can do this! And you can also share your plans in the Recallers group or the classroom ❤️

@jillmartin8195 4 ай бұрын

Yes please- frantic or over zealous dogs that get soooooooooo excited about training and treats they can’t focus. I have 6 aussies. But one is extra “wound up” I’m not sure running a mile would change it. Advice on how to chill out a dog IN a training session.

@jillmartin8195 4 ай бұрын

I should add. They al know it’s your choice. But her it’s your choice is more like she’s sitting on a spring board waiting to launch 🚀

@beckyoak 4 ай бұрын

What an incredibly helpful episode!! I'm a new HSTD member and this was just great. Weve got a sit and down with our 6mth old mini schnauzer and her IYC is awesome... Started with hand targets (but I'm still working on my mechanics 😅). Thanks team xxx

@janmurray5945 3 ай бұрын

Great podcast, it made me realize (again) that all my training while following Recallers (and before) has not been shaping, and I still don't 'get how to get it right'. I am 'showing' Betty what I want, with just about everything you mentioned that isn't part of shaping eg voice, body language, finger pointing..... added to that, although she is good and getting better at IYC she still knows when I have treats or toys on me and looks (but not tries to take), that way rather than having focus on what she is doing/offering. What other resources will help me get my head around how to shape correctly.

@DogsThat 3 ай бұрын

Hi Jan! A great is start is to try to mimic Susan's mechanics. Record your session and then compare what you're doing to what Susan is doing ❤️

@azogal53 4 ай бұрын

Worth watching more than once! I'm having success teaching the "Selfie" trick owing to my dog's understanding of Hop It Up and Paws Up. From there, it is just a matter of fine tuning these behaviors for the new trick. Other behavioral building blocks? Recallers, I'm looking at you! I have joined another trick training group and Recallers games have given us the foundations we need for so many new and fun tricks. Great episode, looking forward to the next in this series 🍪🍪🍪🍪🍪

@matek3199 4 ай бұрын

Thanks for this Susan. I have bought HSTD, Wag Nation and Crate Games to get ready for my new puppy in March. Excited and a bit nervous.

@michaelburke9263 4 ай бұрын

I joined your recallers program back in November, and have found it to be extremely helpful. All my dogs have basic behavioral blocks in sit down stay Market bucket training, and such what I have found to be an interesting challenge is working with my latest dog, a great Pyrenees Anatolian shepherd mix at 11 months he is 100 pounds of love. However, some of the exercises such as moving quickly back-and-forth for him are more difficult because there’s just so much more of him. My question in shaping is how to address the fact that he hast to move so much more, and it’s difficult for him to train change direction and some of the shaping behaviors. Have pointers for me. I would be so happy to get them. Thank you.

@susantaylor7496 4 ай бұрын

Great episode Susan, as always. Got me thinking about how I work with my dog, I think without realising I was doing too much behaviour approximations and my dog was getting very frustrated. I've moved to using previouly learnt behaviours and it does work better for sure. But I do have a question - using the selfie trick just as an example, my dog has a great paws up and I've built on that to the selfie position, but I'm stuck with the cue in case I 'poison' the paws up cue and have her think that has been replaced by the selfie cue. Can you explain how to ensure both cues are still valid, one for the old behaviour and one for the new, without dilution or confusion please?

@123steveandlisa 4 ай бұрын

I have previously tried to shape my dog into playing tug on command. She is food motivated. I gave up after a bit because she would do it half heartedly for little bit, and then give up and look at me for a cookie. As I am writing this I realise that even though they were short sessions, maybe I tried to extend them too quickly for her. Also, maybe I rewarded for a half hearted tug, instead of only rewarding for an enthusiastic one. What do you think?

@123steveandlisa 4 ай бұрын

I saw your dog do a spin and then reverse up to sit in between your legs. My dog has a 'back' cue (but I have only done this when standing in front of her. She also has a spin cue but again with me in front of her. How do I connect the two with shaping?

@Gulogulo314 4 ай бұрын

It seems like at least a a Zelig style “non-reward marker” would have led to a more successful less stressful training session for your dog stuck on the wall. I think these are very useful in making goals more clear when my dog is confused and offering incorrect behaviors.

@DogsThat 4 ай бұрын

Why Don’t You Just Use a Non Reward Marker While Shaping the Dog- Doesn’t it Give More Clarity?

@jazzbradley9178 4 ай бұрын

Thank you for the super duper episode! How do you shape in agility? I try use shaping as much as possible (works the brain so great enrichment!) but always struggle how to shape agility cues, for example left and right.

@Mtfrederick 4 ай бұрын

Another Q. How did shaping your dogs to touch the wall help in shaping the "send-away"?

@bethnugent5062 4 ай бұрын

How do I shape a back up?

@IsabelleBouchard 4 ай бұрын

How do you shape "stand". This is basic but I haven't seen it yet in your videos I'm afraid to teach it wrong.

@DogsThat 4 ай бұрын

Hi @IsabelleBouchard here's Susan's video on teaching stand - susangarrettdogagility.com/2020/10/train-your-dog-to-stand-on-cue/ We have a playlist for sit, down, stand here on KZfaq as well to help - kzfaq.info/sun/PLphRRSxcMHy2cY7Fg3MLUaobkSdnVx0jt&si=_SD3FsL_CTqjs_ML

@mkshffr4936 4 ай бұрын

Successive approximation. Hmmm... Flashback to Integral Calculus.

@Mtfrederick 4 ай бұрын

😂😂😂

@theamziss 3 ай бұрын

Maybe not the right place to ask, but I've been wanting to enroll for recallers and home school the dog. To my dissapointment however, you pay only for a limited time access (4 months and 1 year). For me personally this will not work due to the way I learn and manage my energy (I have ASD). It'll also be inconvenient because I'm mostly interested to learn because we'll be getting a new puppy. I'd like to start learning way ahead of time, but also when we're raising the puppy. However I have no idea when we'll actually have our new pup. It could be in 3 months time, it could also take another year. Do the courses really 'end' after that time period? Isn't there any way to get some sort of unlimited (or at least longer) access? 4 months is a really short time. If it really isn't possible, I'll wait untill we've bought the puppy and hope for the best. It's also possible that maybe I am misunderstanding how these courses work.

@DogsThat 3 ай бұрын

Hi @theamziss we'd love for you to send a note to wag@dogsthat.com and our amazing team will help with info about Recallers and Home School the Dog. Susan shared about the duration of our classrooms in a live on KZfaq, and if you'd like to watch it, here's the link for the replay - kzfaq.infor1kcym76j0k?feature=share

@theamziss 3 ай бұрын

@@DogsThat Hi, thankyou so much for the fast reply. I just watched the video and it took away my concerns. To be able to re-enroll for a lower 'alumni' fee seems very fair. Really lowers the treshold for me.

@DogsThat 3 ай бұрын

@theamziss thank you so much for watching the video! 💚

@terryohanlon301 4 ай бұрын

i don't understand what you mean by 'behavioral block".

@DogsThat 4 ай бұрын

Behavioural block- are responses that your dog has a reinforcement history for doing with you. Sit, down, stand, hand target, shake a paw…likely a big long list.

@manuelapenela1924 4 ай бұрын

Close to the end she mentions “behavioral building blocks”. I was getting it wrong thinking blocks as in obstacles but it’s blocks as in steps… behaviors the dog is already familiar with which you can use to get yourself closer to the target behavior.

@jenniferreesdavies3353 4 ай бұрын

mm that was a block for me too, i changed it to brick each time i heard it. ie a cobtaibed ampunt of solid (learnt) behaviour I can stick somewjere i want. hope that helps. i think us call bricks blocks but nit ebtirely sure on that, whereas a block to learning says to me sometjing i havec to remobe for learning to occurband susan defines what she means by her uwe of block which i tink is like a building brick as in legom hope that helps