I love the way Lex has jammed him in with that microphone so he cant escape.

Imagine being one of the most brilliant people to ever exist, and his answer is "I dont know." That always makes me happy for some reason.

Having someone as absolutely brilliant as Roger Penrose speak so openly about how is unsure about the foundations of his own field of study is incredibly refreshing

Penrose gotta be one of the most humble scientists I've ever seen.

He explains these concepts so well. Its really a privilege to live in an age where you can access such a wealth of knowledge instantly. Brilliant man.

I believe it was Groucho Marx who once famously said: "I'm still confused, but on a higher level!"

"If all you know is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." A physics professor specializing in quantum mechanics asked about consciousness will say it's caused by quantum mechanics. Funny how Penrose admits to not having any idea about neuroscience and only reading up on it *after* he decided to write his book :D At least he's aware that his ideas are speculative at best.

This channel has put out enough quality content it deserves a sub. Well done. Keep doing what you're doing.

Sir Roger Penrose is a living legend and he is almost 90. You were very lucky for this interview

I’m always struck by Penroses humility. He knows more than most people, but is still quick to say “I don’t know”.

21:30 "Intelligence needs understanding; Understanding needs awareness." This could be applied in so many other fields!

It's heartwarming to see a brilliant man discovering an other field of science and by his raw hunger for knowledge get's utterly fascinated. He incorporates things from his discoveries of quantum physics into this landscape that is unknown to him. And you can already smell that if he can have another lifetime, he would've been at the forefront of neuroscience. It's beautiful. He might be on the right track about his gut feelings. Someday, we'll might know for sure.

"Trying to measure consciousness is like trying to measure a ruler with the same ruler"

I feel like a 16th century peasant listening to two time travelers from the future.

A man both brilliant and engaging (two things that don’t even nearly always go together). I hesitate to make this observation, but the way he is grasping his jaw and neck with his hands during much of this interview, suggests an extraordinarily shyness.

The scene from 2001 Space Odessey was where the Apeman throws the bone in the air, it depicts its joy of getting information from somewhere, in his head. If you haven't read the book and had an experience of having the meaning of the incident bloom in your mind, you may not realize the creature realized his mind had produced the idea of 'weapons' to solve the problem of getting food. The first idea was a joyous event, for the ape person.

Really like the interviewer. Very humble. Doesn't pretend he knows something he doesn't

Hes 89 at this interview and this lucid, persuasive and eloquent, its honestly incredible

I actually love penrose, by the way lex is fantastic and this interview was so interesting and calming whilst I was at work! Thankyou ❤

Nice video, fascinating. One constructive criticism: I'm listening to this as I work, and the longer I listen, the more the speaker's inhaling becomes grating. Is there not a way to automatically edit that out with some audio engineering software? It would make this so much more enjoyable. Cheers.

I love how honest Penrose is about weaknesses in the science. I’m weary of scientists filling in gaps with speculation and then present it to the public as gospel.

"This book will maybe stimulate people to do science or something" I was 17 when I got this book. I read it, A Brief History of Time, and Chaos: Making a New Science all around the same time. Those books had a profound influence on me, and my pursuit of science and knowledge.

The world owes this man so much. Awesome interview as always Lex! Thanks!

Towards the end, I think the term you were looking for was synesthesia, the involuntary ability to "see" sounds/words/letters/numbers as colours and textures. This phenomenon is fascinating by itself and I didn't know I had it until I realized most other people don't experience reality the same way. To me it's essential, like being able to taste and smell food at the same time, only in this case I am able to receive extra information from something that cannot be seen or touched. Sometimes I forget I even have it, but you both brought it up and I can't stop thinking about what it might mean.

I love that Lex actually lets his guests speak instead of trying to dominate the conversations. He is a good interviewer. He asks just enough to wind their mind up and then watches it go. Good stuff. A lot of podcasters could learn from this. Like his friend Joe "Joe Rogan" Rogan

So incredible to see Professor Penrose win the Nobel Prize. One of the greatest minds.

Sir Roger is so humble.

Now I understand why Penrose and David Bohm worked together so well. Thank you.

this man is a trooper, continuing on with the interview in spite of his toothache

I think, therefore I'm confused.

Just blown away. That there is a brain of immense capability in an aging body, just as Hawking was in a debilitated body. The brilliance is in their ability to understand their field, but Sir Roger Penrose is so down to earth and willing to expand his knowledge in another field to broaden his perception and still admits that there are so many aspects of this science theory that we cannot quantify in a meaningful way just yet. I hope that those following him have the same dedication to this thinking.

92 years old and still very sharp.

Anybody else get this feeling that with every new thing we learn, we come closer to understanding how little we actually know?

This charming and self-effacing gentleman, a Nobel prize winner, shows intellectual humility. His brainpower is truly awesome and in its way terrifying. He is very special

I feel for this man. A lifelong scientist who has run up against the inevitable walls of his paradigm, but hasn't given up because the deeper human part of himself knows that the truth is far beyond. Searching mightily, heroically, for a materialist solution to a quandary that is not in the slightest bit material.

The actual father of quantum theory was Max Planck who received a Nobel prize in 1918. He understood the ultimate solution to this conundrum of not being able to explain how matter forms consciousness. It’s actually quite simple, consciousness created matter rather than the other way around. In 1931, , reported Planck’s viewpoint, “I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.” Later in his 1944 speech “The Nature of Matter,” Planck further explained how consciousness is present throughout everything, “There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.” Sadly, physicists remain stuck because they approach the problem from the perspective that physical matter is primary when the truth is that consciousness is primary. On three occasions I experienced the deconstruction of physical matter while returning to a state of pure consciousness, a process named samadhi by Hindu sages. When in the primary state of pure consciousness there is no other, I have no body and it’s quite clear that no boundaries or physical elements exist. As a point of awareness in an infinite space the ecstatic sensations are so glorious that most who experience samadhi are overwhelmed by the ecstatic bliss. I found that questions I contemplate are answered with accompanying three dimensional illustrations. What I discovered regarding the non computability of consciousness is really quite simple. Consciousness is comprised of intellect and feelings which include emotions and sensations. While AI can mimic the intellectual part of consciousness, the feeling parts are irrational. Since computations are rational they remain unable to embrace the irrational aspects of consciousness which include emotions and sensations. Beyond that basic shortcoming, there are much more important implications. One issue of great import is the way creativity is sparked by the irrational aspect of consciousness. Once the irrational spark offers a previously unexplored possibility, the intellect analyses the novel idea to determine if it’s applicable and then working with additional creative sparks the intellect determines how to apply the novel approach. More importantly, feeling which include love are all irrational. These are essential aspects of the human experience. In fact, our feelings are more important than intellectual pursuits. True love is clearly the peak experience that is featured in most stories presented in books, on screen, in plays, songs, etc. Intelligence is useless when it comes to love. Hence, one must let go of math, machines and even matter to truly understand consciousness. To get there one must let go of physical reality as you focus on your heart. Yes, you must focus on your heart because that is the doorway to the One. For in our hearts a genius or genie resides. Just as Einstein said, “The state of mind which enables a man to do work of this kind [theoretical physics], is akin to that of the religious worshipper or the lover; the daily effort comes from no deliberate intention or program, but straight from the heart.” That’s because a linkage to the One supreme consciousness that underlies the entire universe resides in our hearts.

When you’re so brilliant you have to hold your head up under the sheer imposing size of your brain.

Penrose is a world treasure. We should be thankful for his brilliance and ability to explain these topics in such a manner that anyone can understand.

As a medical physics student, this is so enlightening. Thank you @LexFridman @RogerPenrose for this wonderful conversation. It's worth noting the sodium and calcium interactions between the synapses and how they shrink and grow to work with the endocrine and nervous systems. It's almost like a robot, however, humans have developed an additional "sense" to realize these things, and all of this is quantum physics (study the periodic table lol). So many peculiarities, like how the neuron doesn't have mitosis because the body has to conserve energy. Neither does the heart because it would enlarge. So many beautiful puzzles we may never figure out. And after everything is said and done, physics (math) is the foundation of things and the way we perceive them.

Never heard this but great listen! Agree with with green sweatshirt man.. the issue with the theory is it is very hard to prove under the circumstances but makes much sense to my mind!

It’s weird if consciousness is a computation, and weird if it’s not

love the mattress spare room feel of this podcast

Good interview

A truly brilliant human being. We are so lucky to have him.

A.I as far as I see it, is basically an extension of 'Automation' which we have been doing since the industrial revolution with mechanical automation, the digital variety is more complex but is not anywhere near consciousness. The volume of concepts and data is not really the point.

Love listening to the brilliance of Dr. Penrose.

Excellent video, very nourishing. Should add, that's one of the all time best comb overs

what turns consciousness off?? Penrose: Anaesthetics What turns it inside out??? McKenna: the mushroom...

Listening to this man is absolute golden bliss. Thank you for doing the interview and posting it here for all of us to watch for free.

Great insight 😊enjoyed the educated understanding. Congratulations 🎉

I see Lex talking gently knowing Penrose is much older showing respect I like that.

"Not even tentative" - new idiom. "Do we have a theory of consciousness?" "Not even a tentative one."

Probably the most interesting comment section I've ever came across. So many beautiful minds. My gratitude.

I love the mystery of it, like the soul is something we are beginning to understand but so far we lack the knowledge about how it actually works. I.e. spooky action at a distance and the true nature of reality.

What was always the most trippy thing about anesthesia to me, is how quickly it’s capable of rendering a person unconscious upon entering the blood stream. Conversely, when you push the medication to wake you up, the transition back to consciousness happens just as quick. It’s crazy how our body is so capable of recognizing a foreign substance & reacting to it immediately.

What he's trying to say is: The world at the macro scale is deterministic, and determinism can't explain consciousness. Therefore non-deterministic, micro scale phenomena _might_ be able to. And some brain structures are at the boundary between the two scales, thus consciousness might be rooted there. His evidence that consciousness is non-deterministic is that humans can hold ideas that computers can't represent.

Dude is 89 and speaks more eloquently about these abstract ideas than I can at 30

This is one of the best examples of the importance of knowing how to think and not what to think . Sir Roger ya legend

The more we know the more we realise how little we know. Love Penrose. This is a sublime conversation Lex.

The more I learn the less I know.

Long before KZfaq, I saw Penrose in person give his presentation on this.

The human brain is the universe becoming aware and looking out upon itself. It’s incredible how the connections in the brain resemble the filaments of stars and the empty spaces between those filaments evident in the known universe.

Roger Penrose points to anaesthesia as turning consciousness on and off and that all chemistry is quantum mechanics. So what is the chemistry of sleep? What turns consciousness on and off there at various times and what control process is it that allows us to snap it back on in an instant? What prevents the sleep switch from operating? Fabulous thoughts.

Excellent interview, apart from the subject and the interesting explanations of concepts, the interviewer really allows the space for Penrose to be heard yet manages to guide him just enough towards what the viewer might need to understand further. Awesome. Thanks for posting

A stab at the last part: Awareness is the Descartes beginning of everything in the consciousness. Awareness is the representation of things in consciousness. Understanding is the relation of things in awareness. And intelligence is the generalization and extrapolation capability that can imagine or discover things that were not immediately evident.

nice work!

Very interesting discussion. In Buddhism consciousness is in Sanskrit "vijñāna" which in English is literally "in two parts (vi) knowing (jñāna)".

Sir Roger Penrose nailed it on the head when he mentioned the only way to understand quantum mechanics better is to know where quantum mechanics goes wrong. You can look for patterns all day long but deciphering the anomalies is where true understanding begins.

"What the hell do they do?" - Penrose, 2020

A fascinating area to contemplate. I've often wondered what space was, and now they're wondering what consciousness is. In both cases it seems to come down to undefined bits which, over time, will maybe be defined.

This makes me start wanting to ask questions about lucid dreaming, and wondering if researching into the states of wave functions from the brain during lucid dreaming, could actually lead us to an answer somewhere. The fact that i can be fully awake and conscious during a dream, to the point of actively being able to remember the real-world day before hand, and how the things i experienced went into the detailed make up of the dream im in... I feel like there has to be something there. If sleep is supposed to turn us off so we can rest, then what the ever living hells is allowing me to stay AWAKE AND FULLY CONSCIOUS through my entire dream.

I love his intuitive mastery, how he knows what's missing, how much is missing, how far away they are, etc..

When the prof speaks everyone pays attention. He's so inspiring and motivational.

He seems a really nice and humble chap. And of course next level intelligence.

The universe is conscious. We’re just able to observe that consciousness. As the great quote goes, we are the universe observing itself.

There's something about the way he explains himself that makes me keep listening, even if I have no idea what he's saying? :-)

Absolutely incredible interview. Lex, you did an amazing job bringing it back to your audience and making sure we know what to google and research... very inspiring.

You don't have to explain the collapse of the wave function, if it doesn't collapse. I would love the opportunity to see Penrose and a MW enthusiast, talk about about the differences in their interpretations of QM.

Consciousness is conscious awareness. The key word here is awareness! Consciousness is our awareness of reality gathered through our senses. I think awareness is dependent upon an entangled state that occurs between the viewer and the viewed? General anesthetics does not work to make everyone unconscious? I can see why Mr Penrose is so well respected.

Masterfully done, host Lex Fridman. You got your questions in to move things along and clarify.

Roger Penrose lives every moment like it's the last 5 minutes of the workday xD

I love how Penrose always start from the "philosofical" that inspired him first and build up into phisics. What he says about computing makes me think of the breach between computing and biology on our closed system earth. Taking into acount that our brains is the result of a massive long term non-artificial or natural process, we still don´t know if any artificial self sustaining and complexity growing intelligence would do when it starts to build up in the same entropy we are on. I tend to agree with pensrose, that no artificially created intelligence by a naturally ocurring one, could develop concsiousness(but not knowing the reach of our concsiousness, well....)

Amazing conversation...

How blessed are we to have the brain of Roger Penrose up and running and a media to have a glimpse of it at work. Brilliant human.

The microtubules he is talking about and the one shown by the picture are different things. But when he talks about the anasthesia, then it's about neuronal microtubules.

I was sad it was so short but i found full version in the description haha

Always felt he is one of the most resonant. Quantum gravity will be understood when graphically representing the probabilities of observation in a 4d space, or, the probability rather wave functions collapse.

Great interview thank you Mr Friedman for putting this up i've watched it several times. Penrose is a fascinating man

In my view, Sir Roger Penrose is one of the cleverest men who ever lived. It took me a long time to read his tome ''The Road to Reality'', but it was worth it!

I can’t help but wonder why there haven’t been radio-isotope labelled intravenous general anaesthetic studies with imaging to determine the sites of activity of anaesthetics. To differentiate the neurons it targets and get a better gauge on how or where these act to determine the on/ off switch for consciousness

Brilliant! Thank you!

I love his style and way of thinking. Very humble and no BS.

Initally the discussion regarding consciousness used to fascinate me now it terrifies me. Change is hard to embrace

A podcast less than a half an hour long and with Penrose in the studio!

Microtubules provide an exclusionary realm within which quantum processes can proceed undeterred. As with the Casimir Effect, where parallel plates limit wavelengths to less than or equal to the spatial dimension between the plates, the interior dimension within microtubules (5-11 nm) limits activities to less than or equal to that dimension. It creates a space within which quantum processes are catalyzed to high efficiencies by excluding processes that cannot physically occur in this limited space. Photosynthesis is ~99% efficient due to microtubules providing an appropriately sized arena for quantum processes to proliferate. For this reason I suggest imbedding nanotubes of similar size within the perovskite crystalline deposit to increase the efficiency of PV panels.

I read his book (Emperor's New Mind). I even understood quite a lot of it. It was like a history of information theory dating back to Plato. I started to get lost with James Clerk Maxwell. The best bit were his tile designs.

Admiration and Respect to Mr Roger Penrose his intelligence is amazing, it is a privilege to hear him here, thank you

Can eyes (or camera focus) relect or transmit some disruptive, vibrational beam on a quantum level. One which changes a wave/particle state???

When your brain is so heavy that you need hold ur head all the time

Great points on understanding. Your honest as a person. I think it's known you seek. Computation. The way I was taught you say something I respond in a way to make you understand what you said.