If the river bet was larger you have a decision but as it played out you have to call. If you don't call the 2nd nut here you're folding too much. You probably need to call with a few of your high flushes to be balanced considering you could have sets here sometimes or straights that you'd want to fold.
@supersmoo737710 ай бұрын
Bart - “I watch a lot of live poker that is sort of equivalent to this level” (Cough cough: Hustler Casino Live)
@dst948110 ай бұрын
I'm amazed that he was able to bet $360 with a stack of green $25 chips...
@dullatron10 ай бұрын
Much easier with ten 36s.
@darthbeers1610 ай бұрын
Just a cooler. Nothing different to do
@TheJGB21122 ай бұрын
You would be surprised by how many people raise shove the river. Also i think the nut flush should be raised in the turn, to go all in in the river, i feel like he lost so much value there
@Zachhatesyoutube10 ай бұрын
What does he mean @5:28? Why does he like the jack?
@Duderz10 ай бұрын
I only show if I am bluffing and trying to get action. Only at lower stakes when there are a bunch of nits
@MrJamberee10 ай бұрын
There is very little upside to showing your hand. The arguments players make for shoeing is poorly thought out. And every player at the table gets information about your play. Not a good idea.
@EllieBanks33310 ай бұрын
This is kind of a special KZfaq moment. I strongly agree with the video title, but not so much with the conclusion. I think I fold this river often, now exploit me. But keep in mind I'm looking at ALL the details here. The exact configuration, including villain being SB. The bet sizing's [although caller was a bit confused about pot size]. The board texture, coupled with hero's hand texture. What is villains bluffing hand here? Many of his big ace hands are playing 3 bet or fold from SB, like AK, AQ, AJ. How can he make this play without the ace of diamonds? He'd have to be at least uber laggy if not full maniac. So mayyybe AdTx ?? That's only 2 combo's AdTc & AdTh. Is this *ever* an over-value?? Of what? 89dd? Maybe if I thought villain ever had AdKx here... but doesn't that raise pre or on turn often? By contrast, villain has every AdXd combo possible & this line makes total sense. For the zillionth time: donks are usually mega draws or villains strong belief they are best & do NOT want a check back! There are no draws by the river. And also, those 2 logical bluff combos I can dream up [AT], there's only 2 because hero blocks it with ten on board & ten in his own hand. I think part of the "never fold here" thoughts are about hero's hand strength. Problem is, that actually works against hero. He has 4/5ths of a Royal. He blocks premium flushes, except the nut flush. That is wide open & hero loses to it. Finally, I'm not saying this is a "bad" call. Hero is getting over 2 to 1 & does have the 2nd nuts. But folding is a big advantage here considering hero *would* have value bet the river if not for villains donk. Taking advantage of opponents poor play is huge.
@1vailchris10 ай бұрын
Ugh. I hate spots like this. I think I disagree with Bart about the flop (and turn) bet sizing. I think I might like to bet small here, to keep my opponents' range wide, so they can have all the 1P/2P and smaller flushes, and also so they will want to raise me with their flopped sets, and maybe want to raise me with their nut flush draws. I don't want to bet this flop or turn huge, and have to fold to an x/r, or continue against a very strong range that includes better made hands and very few worse hands. If we take smaller bet sizing on flop and turn, then I think it makes it much harder for V to extract max value. He can tip his hand strength by raising turn, but then we can comfortably fold if he barrels big on river. If he just smooth-calls our turn bet, it's going to look super-weird if he donk-leads huge on the river, but even then, the pot will be smaller, so the big river bet will be smaller. The way this was played, it's hard for me to find the over-valued hands. 89 maybe, but that's a hand some V's might raise on turn, to get value before a 4th diamond on the river. Likewise, it's hard for me to find the bluffs. I'd think all the bluffs would have the Ad in them, and there again, those hands might want to donk-lead or raise turn to rep the flush, knowing that they're either going to have to barrel the river on a brick, or miss value on a 4th diamond. When hero is the PFR, c-bets flop, AND barrels turn, I really don't like V's river donk-bet with the nut flush. Hero is going to barrel off here a lot, allowing V to go for a check-raise or just call hero's jam. Sure, opponents are going to call with the 2nd nuts a high percentage of the time, but we're taking away the opportunity for them to continue bluffing or barreling with a worse hand for value. I still don't know how often I'm folding here. It would really be player dependent. Considering I recently called off a river donk-lead with top set after a 3rd flush card came on the turn, I don't think I could fold very often here. The last time I folded a K-high flush (to a check-raise, not a donk-lead), my opponent showed me the naked ace as a bluff. That one still stings.
@pot_kivach16010 ай бұрын
true. I exclude bluff as a possibility here. (Bluffing into all-street aggressor is a lose-lose position). So: it's a value bet. If I do not know that the opponent is LAG or a whale, I'd easily fold here, and never look back.
@EllieBanks33310 ай бұрын
@@1vailchris I definitely agree with you that villain misplayed the hand. He must go for a check-raise at some point. As to calling here, I think it's fine. Hero has a strong enuff hand to bluff catch with. But I do think we lose quite often. The main reason I'm bringing up a fold possibility is that I actually liked Bart's analysis right up to the moment he said he's obviously calling the river. I think it's fine to call, but against a fair number of players I'm folding pretty comfortably. The fact their is no check-raise. The texture of the board combined with hero's holding. The sizing villain took. The fact it's a river donk. I don't see many bluffs taking this line. Hero's hand is strong, but I think we lose more often than win here. It's hard finding many logical bluffs. And the only over-value I can find is 98dd. And as I said originally: hero blocks AT so strongly.
@1vailchris10 ай бұрын
@@EllieBanks333 I agree with you. I think most, if not all the hands we beat when V donk-leads the river are going to x/r on some earlier street, unless V is a maniac turning some hand with a lot of showdown value into a bluff, which seems very unlikely and over-the-top maniacal. It just doesn't make sense for V to check-call, check-call, then suddenly decide to donk-lead big on the river as a bluff. Even with some AdXx hand, I think the bluff is relying on hero being able to fold the 2nd nuts to this bizarre line V's taken. If we're in V's spot with AdXx, and we plan to bluff the river, I think we need to start that bluff on the turn, when the flush comes in.
@dalewike85610 ай бұрын
Fold now.
@iamamish10 ай бұрын
Would villain have been better served by checking on the river, then check raising? Hero bet both previous streets, it seems likely he'll do so again. He might give up on total bluffs but you wouldn't have gotten more out of those anyway. If you think you might have out-flushed your opponent, it seems he could have easily gotten more value with a check raise. I'm no expert so curious what other people think
@captzachevil10 ай бұрын
This is actually a very reliable betting tell from weak players when they have a strong hand. It's very heavily motivated out of a fear of losing out on value.
@iamamish10 ай бұрын
@@captzachevil Yes that's what Bart said too, but would villain have gotten more money on average in this spot by check-raising? Sometimes we don't want to do something (like donking on river) because while it increases EV in a particular spot, it causes us to give up even more EV in other spots. In this specific case, it seems that not only would it be more balanced to check-raise, it also would have gotten villain paid off more here.
@dgolfere-wgt519410 ай бұрын
I think it's a bad idea to raise the river because your opponent having A high flush he will call whatever you rersise so that would be bad for you.
@iamamish10 ай бұрын
@@dgolfere-wgt5194 right - but I'm asking if the villain in the hand would have been better off check-raising rather than donking
@nicholi278910 ай бұрын
Chinook winds! My stomping grounds.
@skelthouser273010 ай бұрын
So you get to play once or twice a year??
@nicholi278910 ай бұрын
@@skelthouser2730 nah I play in Portland three times a week. But I grew up on the coast and always go to chinook every year.
@skelthouser273010 ай бұрын
I liked playing at Chinook and Spirit Mountain. Pisses me off they both shut down their poker rooms.
@nicholi278910 ай бұрын
@@skelthouser2730Yeah there is a ridiculous shortage of poker rooms in the valley and the coast.
@Jermo48410 ай бұрын
I've seen this line plenty with draws that brick, too. Like if he took this exact same line on a board when the turn had also been a brick and I had some other sort of thick value like a set or top two, I'd know I'm good almost every time. I think the lesson is the same though - it's so polar that you should almost always just call. Either it's a bluff or thick value anyway. Unless you literally have the nuts, then you can go huge.
@EllieBanks33310 ай бұрын
What draw missed here?
@Jermo48410 ай бұрын
@@EllieBanks333 the naked nut flush draw, but my point was that in general river leads are polar. Whether it's a brick the whole way (usually a bluff if the flop has good draws), just a river brick (sometimes a bluff, sometimes a turned made hand), or a nut changing hand (sometimes a bluff, usually thick value). People at 2/5 level simply don't lead rivers with thin value.
@JohnSmith-nx7zj10 ай бұрын
@@EllieBanks333KJ and J9.
@EllieBanks33310 ай бұрын
@@JohnSmith-nx7zj KJ no diamonds? If the villain was a LAG, I missed that part of the call. J9 with 9d? That's maybe more LAG. If I had some kind of read here, then fine I call & cross my fingers. I think this is exactly what it looks like. And not to be results oriented, but it turned out to be exactly what it looked like.
@JohnSmith-nx7zj10 ай бұрын
@@EllieBanks333I’m not saying it’s super likely. KJ no diamond seems fine as a flop call. But calling turn and donking river would be a pretty odd line. At the end of the day I think you just have to call river here unless you know villain is the biggest nit in the world. You can’t be playing good poker if you’re folding here as a general rule.
@pauliessleepers46014 ай бұрын
But if he had A diamonds with off suit Q or 10 doesn't it play the same? Turned the nut flush draw nut blocker so leads out big on river....
@Fred-rg5vw10 ай бұрын
Didn't mention royal flush draw on turn. Subconsciously knew villian had the ace of diamonds. Had villian checked river..would hero have bet..? Asking as seems like villain made an error betting.
@supersmoo737710 ай бұрын
Villain definitely made a mistake by leading the river. Villain could have gotten all the chips, possibly. Unless villain thinks hero is too nitty and won’t value bet hands like AK, QJ, TT, etc.
@supersmoo737710 ай бұрын
Who cares about the royal flush draw? Hero has a strong hand anyway. If the A of diamond came out on the river, then hero should be annoyed as there are almost no hands that can call him anymore.
@Fred-rg5vw10 ай бұрын
@supersmoo7377 Fair pt re what could villian call with if royal flush gets there..he could still potentially bluff at it. And hero goes from 2nd nuts to nuts ofc..but yeah your pt is sound. Do some venues have a jackpot for royal flushes ?
@captzachevil10 ай бұрын
It's a mistake. Hero has a lot of hands that bet river that end up folding instead when the river is donk led. I think 2nd nuts might be the only realistic call you'll ever see actually. I find it hard to see that making up for all the river bets you lose by donk leading.
@mrhumble293722 күн бұрын
@@supersmoo73779 d could have came
@windy645510 ай бұрын
2/3 pot already is kind of large on this turn isnt it? Nearly full pot seems excessive especially when the vast majority of his flushes beat us. I’d like it if we had the better end of a likely flush over flush scenario
@mrhumble293710 ай бұрын
Good call
@brandonloehle430410 ай бұрын
I play 1/2, and I think I fold this to a decent subset of player archetypes. OMC and passive rec players come to mind first. Everyone else? Sigh call
@jamesbell161310 ай бұрын
Plus, hero only beats a 9 high flush or worse at this point or loses to ace high flush of course.
@1vailchris10 ай бұрын
I actually think I like smaller bet sizing on flop and turn, to keep our opponents' ranges as wide as possible, and force them to figure out an optimal response with their stronger hands. Say we bet 1/3 pot on flop, and 1/3 pot on turn. What does AdQx do? What about 77 or JJ, or KQ, or QJ, or JT? How does a V with a better flush extract maximum value without tipping the strength of their hand? It probably seems weird to take a pot-control line by betting small on flop and turn with this specific hand, but we're extracting max value from all our opponents' weaker hands that continue to that small sizing, and avoiding max damage when our opponents have us beat. Compare that to betting big - what can V continue with across all streets that we have beat? Top 2 hoping we check-back or that they hit one of 4 outs to boat up? Maybe some unlikely smaller flushes and some sticky straights, but most opponents aren't continuing here with many worse hands when hero bets big on the turn.
@AdrienneVirginiaS10 ай бұрын
Players who limp call from up front and flat from the small blind are not coming up with optimal strategies lol
@1vailchris10 ай бұрын
@@AdrienneVirginiaS you missed the point, and it doesn't matter. Bad recs are going to call down wider when we bet small, or tip their hand strength when we're beat.
@supersmoo737710 ай бұрын
I don’t know where you play, but most live players are continuing on flop and turn with all the hands you listed with a 66% pot bet, and a 66%-100% turn bet. You WANT to get all the money in when your opponent has QJ, JJ, 77, AK, etc on the river when you have a high flush.
@1vailchris10 ай бұрын
@@supersmoo7377 You misunderstood. Read what I wrote again. I think we should bet smaller because we want opponents to call with a wider range. Even Bart said that when V calls flop, he's weighted towards top pair or better. The more we bet on flop and turn, the stronger our opponents' ranges need to be to continue on each street. When we bet 2/3 pot on flop and 2/3 on turn, most opponents aren't continuing with a lot of very weak hands. Of course we want them to call our river bet when we have the 2nd nuts. But they have to GET to the river first. And they're not getting there with very many weak hands, the way this was played. When we take this larger bet sizing, and it goes check-call, check-call, donk-big or check-raise, we're almost never winning against V's range, because V's folding out the weakest parts of his range along the way.
@AdrienneVirginiaS10 ай бұрын
@@1vailchris bro you’re missing the point… These specific players made blunders preflop and we can safely assume forcing pocket 77 into indifference with a nuttish holding is not the most profitable play against button clickers.
@windy645510 ай бұрын
I tried this line with 35s from sb I think in a limped pot or in a super multi way min raised pot with bunch of fish in the hand. XC XC my oesd on J42 then bluff donked like $300 into $400 on a front door flush completing river. Knew from this player he was betting a weak top pair. Apparently he doesn’t listen to you cause he called with top pair queen Jack kicker lol
@jamesstevenson311610 ай бұрын
Have a question: you said it was highly exploitable if you fold the basically second nuts here, and you have to call. Do you show your hand every time here so they know they can’t exploit you or do you just muck and let them wonder what bs you called with? I wrote this comment right before you said you’d probably muck 😅 I tend to always show these and be like, I’m not an idiot, I know how to play, so watch your back homie. And people play so scared and inevitably play more face up.
@supersmoo737710 ай бұрын
Preflop, with two limpers of 5 each, I think hero should be raising more to 35 or 40. His raise size of 30 is too small.
@pot_kivach16010 ай бұрын
10:15. if they have it, then folding is the only option, isn't it.
@realdavidstone6 ай бұрын
Seems already pretty thin calling a 6x raise oop with A3s , im snap calling here because A3s probably a fold pre
@angrynoob92710 ай бұрын
can't villain have a smaller flush here? 98dd, 76dd, etc
@skelthouser273010 ай бұрын
Ummm, did you not watch/listen to the video????
@paulpena5040Ай бұрын
No way you can fold that. So easy for villain to have weaker flushes, straights, sets 2 pairs such a wet board. And the great thing about bluffing from villain's perspective is that hero might try to bluff catch with a non flush hand that's actually losing. Say villains has a set and hero tries to bluff catch with 2 pair or villain has the higher straight and hero tries to bluff catch with the lower straight, etc.
@Dylan-vm4gl10 ай бұрын
It may be difficult at first not to show but you’ll probably relish in it later on.
@christophermanning614610 ай бұрын
To Bart's point, you can't really fold here without ICM implications, massive knowledge on player, etc. In this pool it's a call, you're handcuffed. It's a bit exploitable if the players know you're only jamming the nut flush here also.
@Nikkithedog-t6b10 ай бұрын
Yes that makes sense. I once folded second set on a flop because the guy was literally flogging himself under the table. Never would have considered it in a million other hands but I said to the guy you have AA or JJ and I can beat everything but JJ. Folded face up and the table goes insane and the guy showed JJ top set. It's obviously a horrible fold but you had to see this guy at the time.
@ahaaha846210 ай бұрын
It should be a conversation between calling and shoving, but about calling or folding…😂if villain is a capable opponent and he check shove on river, that would be a way more disgusting spot
@TG-rx8kd10 ай бұрын
98 Diamonds is the only other flush combo that might bet out like that. He probably wouldn’t even do that with 98
@rastavoimaАй бұрын
i think you can fold river.
@frederickmccabe56758 ай бұрын
Gotta clean up your flush outs on this flop. The End.
@banks771410 ай бұрын
I'm 100% trying to tilt dudes by showing them how bad they play lol, I've folded a flopped nut straight face up to a guy who donked into me on the river after the flush came in which was the only hand he could have as played and he lost his mind then lost his stack over the next 90 mins
@ticenits192610 ай бұрын
This is precisely why you want to underbet on wet boards, you need to keep your opponents range wider than just the nuts. It also has the added benefit of forcing them to raise to get value from their nutted hands.
@jameswalker742010 ай бұрын
It also makes no sense to show folds like this for at least 2 other reasons off the top of my head. 1. why give them any free info? 2. why educate the loose fish that big hands don't automatically have to go broke? Just learn to muck your hand and move on. Poker games would be so much better if all the regs had always just done this instead of trying to show how smart they are. And definitely don't ever show big laydowns.
@joey86bu110 ай бұрын
Dang I thought small denom chips would be the way to go with stronger hands. Hmm.
@b-rawentertainment781410 ай бұрын
Can’t ever fold that spot. I can see A K with ace diamonds making the same river bet. Minimum loss, just a cooler.
@eman4359110 ай бұрын
A cooler nothing you could do but pay dat many his money 😂
@wheresbarry143410 ай бұрын
He trapt me.
@arte985510 ай бұрын
@@wheresbarry1434 not really, you had a solid hand...he just bested you. It happens, that's the game.
@wheresbarry143410 ай бұрын
@@arte9855 Ahhh you didn't get the references to a movie me an op were making.
@TheDjcarter196610 ай бұрын
Crying call on river...the end
@drbennyboombatz91958 ай бұрын
umm.. fold pre
@cgeorge493010 ай бұрын
Re-upload
@josephoneill498310 ай бұрын
💖
@michaela27066 ай бұрын
As villain here I raise turn
@jacobgoldman578010 ай бұрын
98 of diamonds and 86 of diamonds could play this way too…
@rudenurse256110 ай бұрын
🤘🏾👽
@guybrushthreepwood817410 ай бұрын
"who knows what kind of apeshit this guy is doing" 😄. yeah i cant see folding this hand to someone u don't know
@joet776010 ай бұрын
He could have a set of 7s too
@joes28282810 ай бұрын
He probably would have raised that on the flop.
@Nikkithedog-t6b10 ай бұрын
The showing the hand wasn't the problem, it was spouting about how you should have folded which you are never going to do....ever. So why say it. And then when the dude says oh stop it, you say now it proves how bad he is? Come on.
@Nikkithedog-t6b10 ай бұрын
no clue what this package means
@Love1isall10 ай бұрын
Somebody check this kids ID
@supersmoo737710 ай бұрын
Bart - “you’re a for-profit player” Why would Bart even say that?.. we don’t know if he is for-profit or not. Perhaps just to make people think that every person who follows CPL regularly will be for-profit. To me, by the way caller talks about the game, I think he is a losing player.
@iamamish10 ай бұрын
It was a question, not a statement
@supersmoo737710 ай бұрын
who's going to answer "no" when they're calling their hand in