Always entertaining Dave, thanks! I’m relatively new to the channel, been digging through your vids for a couple of weeks and I’ve noticed one very conspicuous absence so far: Sir Simon Rattle. So you’re not saying much.. but in the context of the works you’re talking about (by Mahler, Stravinsky, Debussy etc etc) that in itself says A LOT. So I’m a bit surprised that he didn’t feature in this video either.

Likewise, can you please do a 10 greatest sleeper recordings?

Thank you! You hit most of my pet peeves in one short review. You went where no one dared to go in most cases.

A veritable Classical Festivus ! It made my week, and its only Sunday night... Happy Holidays !

Hi Dave. I do not disagree with any of your top 10. I loved Previn's Rachmaninov 2 for years until I heard Jansons' Oslo disc. Maybe that isn't one of the greats but Jansons really moved it along and made me think differently about the work and about Rachmaninov. We sometimes forget he wrote fabulous fast music! I like Karajan's La Mer but I learnt the work from two better versions (in my view): Toscanini with the NBC and Giulini with the Philharmonia. With Toscanini in particular, I immediately saw the sea in my mind's eye. I think Karajan's early EMI performance is his best. I've never been a fan of Horenstein or Ferrier - but voices are very personal; I like Peter Pears although many people can't stand him. Thanks not only for this but for the many more underrated recordings you cover in these posts. .

David, good dig at the British critics fawning over Reginald the bassoonist :) When I was getting into classical music, I was guided in part by publications like Gramophone and the Penguin Guide, but I quickly found that for those critics, the "Three B's" were actually Boult, Barbirolli, and Beecham, and no English composer, conductor, or orchestra could do wrong: Don't dare miss the famed Delius recording of "Swooning Gently Amongst the Cow Patties" by the Academy of St. Liverwort Antechamber Orchestra, conducted by the estimable Sir Lindsey Smitherton Smythe Smithson, OBE. A reference recording indeed, old chap. And then there was the cult of Rattle... Yipes.

Almost all the recordings on Dave's "Overrated" list have made their way into my collection at one time or another. I was yet another listener/collector who, for more years than I care to admit, was guided in my purchases by the Penguin Guide in all its guises and editions. It took me longer than it should have to figure out that the PG's "rosette" recordings were to be avoided at all costs. And to admit that I frequently enjoyed recordings that they rated two-and-a-half stars or less rather than I did their three-star choices. I also went through a manic phrase during which I acquired all of Horenstein's Vox recordings with the Northeast Westphalian Rundfunk Orchester of Baden-Wurtemburg, et cetera. Oh well--at least those records and CDs were cheap. Speaking of orchestras: Does anyone rate Barenboim's recordings with the East-West Divan Orchestra? Or is it just the thought that counts? Among the admitted great musicians of the past, there are several whom I've just never been quite able to warm to, despite my best efforts to be impressed by them. This will be unpopular and reveal me as a total philistine, but Abbado, Brendel, and Schwartzkopf all make my highly personal Overrated list. To be fair, I sometimes think that HvK in general belongs on that list too. To be clear: I don't disparage these guys; they just don't knock my socks off the way I've been led to believe they will. Among living conductors who supposedly are Hot Stuff, the likes of Dudamel, YN-S, and Nelsons rise to the top of the Overrated category. (Along with the Lang Langs of the world, it goes without saying.) Or is it not that they are so much overrated as overexposed/overhyped?

Thanks Dave. This video is a strong corrective to all those sheep out there. I was a Penguin and Gramophone sheep for years. In that time I DO think there was a Rattle recordings that WAS rated massively, but turns out to not be ‘all that’: his Mahler 2 in Birmingham. It is still the only single recording to win *three* Gramophone awards (engineering, Orchestral and Record of the Year) and also a Penguin Rosette. So I *thought* I loved it for years and put the fact that my mind would wander in and out of the performance down to anything but the performance. Ultimately, exploration of several other performances showed how it really should go. And I didn’t know for years. I listened again last year and found the whole thing over-measured. Still enjoyable, but nothing like Ivan Fischer or Bernstein, to name but two. I would also say that Norrington’s Beethoven set was celebrated - overly - when it won a Gramophone Award. But yes, Horror-Stein is a good choice!

Perhaps a video or a series that plots the best and worst years of particular orchestras would be helpful. Dave, you gave the example of the Vienna Philharmonic was "scruffy" in the early 1950's. Tell us when they achieved their peak in the era of recording, timelines to illustrate the arcs. Thanks!

Hi Dave, Re your Previn Rachmaninov 2 comments and in conjunction with your video on the available recordings of that piece. I listened to my copy (on vinyl) and to a number of others. I can imagine reviewers being blown away by the spectacular engineering and transparency. But Temirkanov is in a different league. Released five years after the Previn it doesn't seem to be around now but his 1991 recording with St Petersburg is available on the YT platform. Assuming a similarity in interpretations, Temirakanov is completely engaging from measure 1. You hear everything.

Agree with a lot of that, Dave; however: I have Horenstein's Rachmaninov Piano Concertos (Chandos, with Earl Wild, RPO) and they are absolutely fabulous! And not one instance of "rigidity" that I can detect. Incredible passion and virtuosic sparkle from both orchestra and soloist throughout -- including several highly effective accelerandos in an outstanding 4th concerto. The only one I don't rate would be no.2, and also the Rhapsody (i.e. "no.5") where, in both cases, I prefer Ashkenazy with Previn and the LSO. I'm not familiar with any of H's other work -- but this set is a triumph! (Have you heard it?!)

Thanks, Dave! One of the most enjoyable talks ever from you (hope I'm not overrating it 🙂). Totally in agreement with what you said about British critics. Personally, I found myself involved in various conversations with my British friends and I often got silenced when talking about DLvdE with Ferrier: God forbid one would say a negative thing about her, even if as a simple matter of taste. Another two or three recordings, great (no doubt) but excessively promoted by all are for me: Tosca, De Sabata; Tristan, Furtwängler (I'am also not a fan of Flagstad, sorry); Tristan, Böhm from Bayreuth, which I find, as often with this conductor, a bit matter of fact. Could we also have the most overrated pianists, please?

Great video and such fun to watch, thanks! I'm not surprised by any of them. I got to know La Mer by listening to the Karajan and wondered what all the fuss was about the piece to say nothing of not hearing the sea, then I heard Szell and Martinon and knew what the fuss is about. I think Barbirolli was probably too nice, I heard stories that he wouldn't sack people for fear of their livelihoods which is commendable as a person but not as a conductor, such a contrast to Reiner and Szell! For a long time the Anthony Collins Sibelius wasn't available or was ridiculously expensive here in the UK, when I finally bought it (thanks to his inflated reputation) God was I disappointed, I agree it's awful and I wondered if it was just me. Incredibly it has been praised again recently (as part of the Collins box, especially the dreadful Ist symphony performance) in Gramophone magazine by someone I thought should know better. I have bought so many duds and missed out on gems by believing critics in Gramophone and the Penguin (mis)Guide to say nothing of the atrocious BBC magazine which I now never read. What is wrong with some British critics' ears most if not all of whom have been partly responsible for the reputations of these recordings? You guys in the States are lucky. As for overrated performers, that would be a good video. My starters are Gergiev and Menuhin.

You are absolutely hilarious! Love watching your videos just to hear your particular sense of humor applied.

Oh Dave, say it ain't so! I have only just discovered your amazing repertoire of videos and have been binge-watching them with great delight, but I felt stabbed me in the heart when you included Van Cliburn's Tchaikovsky First. I adore Tchaikovsky, I adore his first piano concerto, and have quite a few recording of it, but with no consideration whatsoever of "politics," I have never heard another recording in which everything at any moment seems to right as in Cliburn's classic account. You threw in a reference to Argerich, whose two recordings of the work I acquired--and quickly discarded, so I suppose we must agree to disagree.

This was a very good review. What does "reference recording" mean and who determines it? Thanks

Hello David: Can you also make a list of "Most underrated recordings " . I like such lists!

Hola buen hombre. Me gustaría saber, hablando de Sibelius, ¿Cual es la mejor grabación de Finlandia? (Por que hasta ahora me han encantado sus recomendaciones en ciclos sinfónicos). Gracias.

No argument on your comments on Horenstein, by and of themselves. What about the Earl Wild set of Rachmaninoff concertos? Do they succeed as well as they do despite Horenstein's contribution? Are listeners so focused on Wild's playing that we don't pay as much as attention as we could or perhaps should on Horenstein? Not asking these questions to argue but would really like to read your thoughts on this set in the context you suggest. Thanks.

I can see you enjoyed this immensely! But no Simon Rattle? Perhaps we need a top 10 overrated instrumental recordings as well? I would include Tureck's Bach, although you don't hear as much about it these days. Or for vocal recordings, I nominate the Jesse Norman/Masur Strauss 4 last songs. So many of these do indeed seem to be a function of the laziness of critics who endlessly repeat received opinions. I guess as long as some of these aren't also one of the top 10 most boring recordings, at least I can enjoy them on some level. It's certainly food for thought. What about a video on the 10 most underrated great recordings (UnlovedFest)? It seems that Temirkanov Rachmaninoff 2nd is a candidate (still haven't managed to hear that myself). Thanks for a fun half hour!

Great idea! May I give you a suggestion? The top ten UNDERRATED recordings. It would be a opportunity for nice discoveries, like that wonderful Temirkanov’ Rachmaninov 2nd symphony.

So much in agreement I cannot even list. But your body language when talking about Furtwängler‘s Beethoven reminded me of the late, hilarious, and missed Jackie Mason.

Now, you know we will need the most underrated recordings.

Great episode, David, especially for this 1950s-NJ-born, music-loving cynic! But I believe the tedium (as opposed to the "Te Deum?") of Dudamel is approaching that of Horenstein.

Forty years ago when I wanted to avoid the sound of Michael Jackson being played in the background on my job, I purchased a set of mono radio headphones (don't remember if this was before Walkman or I was too poor to afford one) and listened to WNCN, a local Classical station. One day (I was a novice listener) I happened on a work, new to me, I found very exciting. Eagerly listened through movements 2, 3 & 4, more and more eager to have the host tell me what I was listening to.... The work? Tchaikovsky's Pathetique. The performance? Hoenschtein conducting....Somebody. No memory of who. If nothing else, old Jascha started me listening to Peter I. Don't believe I've heard any more Horenstein in the last four decades, but I still remember that one time.

You are just great Dave, i never miss a video and i am really consideting the iscription to Classic today, thanks from Italy.

I have the Horenstein Mahler 1 and 3 on Nonesuch LP. I haven't listened to them in years. I used to own his Bruckner and Beethoven 9ths on Vox with the Vienna Pro Musica. I no longer have them and haven't heard them in 50 years! You brought back some memories :)

Any chance of a "Bitchfest 2021" Shirt with a list of recordings on the back? Thanks again for the great content on this platform as well as the website. A definite joy that was much needed over the last year.

Salty Dave is the best Dave. I really enjoyed this video and agree with all of it with a couple of minor caveats. I always wince when you criticize Barbirolli and the Halle. They play their little fingers raw and Barbirolli’s interpretations always have a lot of personality with extra syrup. But their Elgar 2 is indeed a mess, so I give you this one. I also think Horenstein left us a good Mahler 1 and 3, but I agree we could do without his Bruckner, Liszt, etc. These small items aside, this is a great list of the most-overrated to which I would only add Colin Davis’ snoozy Berlioz, all of it still heartily recommended on countless lists as essential Berlioz yet all of it an utter bore, especially his seemingly interminable Les Troyens. Since you focus a lot on 20th Century recordings, how about a list of the best classical recordings of the 21st Century (so far)? Or are there enough to even fill a list?

I watched this with interest and pleasure, but I have to admit that I am not much bothered by overrated recordings. Yes, Kleiber's 5th hasn't caused me to dump my alternative versions, and, no, I haven't worked my way through the Collins Sibelius cycle that I have. But I'm generally interested in recordings and performances that other people like. I might not share their view, but it's rare that I really feel abused by getting something that doesn't strike me as transcendentally great. What _does_ bother me, though, is the things that are underrated because of parochialism. There, the Gramophone has frustrated me, particularly back in the late 70s and 80s with their knee-jerk dismissal of most performances by US orchestras as vulgar, unfeeling, and unmusical. It was especially egregious with Szell recordings, which were damned as technically perfect but utterly sterile. However, when Szell performed with a British/European orchestra, the results were somehow miraculously humanized. How lovely that the LSO had such a thaumaturgic touch! Besides irritation, I felt a certain pity: I can listen Beecham recordings and marvel at what I hear, but those guys in Royal Tunbridge Wells seemed to have closed ears and minds. Actually, one of the fun things about the Penguin Guide over the years was watching Szell's Wagner and Dvorak go from two stars, to two and 1/2, to three, and to three and a rosette. But that shows that they did, in fact, keep on listening!

A fun video. I was able to guess a few of your choices. The kleiber 5th is a big one for me. I heard about when I was searching for a great Beethoven's 5th, and walked away rather indifferent. I was good, but I refused to believe that was as good as it got. Szell's libe 5th, om the other hand...

That was so refreshing...thank you, I'll recommand your channel to friends discovering classical music.

Dave, I don't doubt your sincerity one iota (as Michael Flanders once said,"Always be sincere....whether you mean it or not!), however I do wonder if the inside of your right cheek isn't slightly sore from having your tongue rammed firmly into it!) Keep on with your classic videos. The first thing I do to start my working day is tune in to the Hurwitzer!

Very interesting as usual - I have all of the “over-raters” that you mention; question: what is your opinion of the much vaunted Horenstein Mahler 3 on Unicorn?

The Van Cliburn Tchaikovsky recording probably still receives all of the attention it does more for its historical than musical importance. Cliburn actually did music a disservice. He followed his mother's advice and learned a handful of pieces really well, but did nothing to expand or explore the repertoire. I think the farthest out on a limb he went was the MacDowell 2nd Piano Concerto. At least Eugene List recorded the first MacDowell concerto when no one else would touch it, regardless of what you might think of the piece. I believe it was on a Westminster recording.

Recordings That The Penguin Guide and Gramophone Led Me To Believe Are Remarkable But Left Me Cold: Karl Böhm's Bruckner 4 on Decca (have listened repeatedly since it was released on CD, always have to play another version immediately afterwards to ease the frustration and boredom), JE Gardiner's Missa Solemnis (could not get it out of the CD player and into the recycle bin fast enough), Michelangeli's Rach 4 and Ravel (nice performances, but not to the extent alleged by the Aquatic Flightless Bird Guide, check out Earl Wild in Rach 4 or Samson François in the Ravel, among many others), Murray Perahia's Beethoven Concerto cycle and (retreating into my bunker) the Du Pré-Barbirolli Elgar Cello Concerto (enjoyable as a one-off performance, but for repeated listening?).

Extremely entertaining and informative! 😎🎹

I'll glad you made the distinction between terrible and overrated. Excellent list!

David, why are you making me feel ashamed and dirty for using the penguin guide as my reference when I was 15 years old and discovering classical music? I was a child, David, a CHILD, how could I have known? All jokes aside: loved the vid.

"Pavane for a dead princess or in this case, dead pavane for a princess" - LITERALLY lol'd, droll and deadly, bravissimo!

I love your scarcity theory - couldn't agree more. I love Beecham in general, but I completely agree regarding his truly overrated "Scheherazade". I'm every bit as rabid as you regarding the Ferrier/Patzak/Bruno Walter/V.P.O. "DLvdE", as well Walter's atrocious 1938 Mahler 9 (which he NEVER approved for release [for good reasons]).And yes, Barbirolli nearly always sounded better in London - much better. For me, one of my Top 10 Overrated recordings is the Solti Mahler 8. It's technically good for its time, but leaves me so 'cold', as to make me indifferent to the work. Solti is the only one who has managed to do that for me. To my ears, there's no music in his recording. I know I'm in the minority on this, but I've given the Solti Mahler 8 many, many tries. I could easily go into extremely specific detail as to how and why it strikes me that way, but won't. Suffice to say, I think it's overrated - not bad, just overrated.

David, you're bursting all my bubbles. I want my bubbles back!

Thanks, Dave! I take it in this way, for the top 10 or whatever list out there, all of them could be ‘overrated’ by some or many listeners or critics. But there is a reason for the top list. Music lovers are not fool. Art, including music, is such highly subjective works. So my action will be: check what I have not got on this list and collect them. 😉

After reading the title of the video, the first I though was Kleiber's Beethoven also (Wand is my favourite here). Furtwangler an eternal Gramophone's must buy...totally agree with you.

i'd love to know what you think of the Bernstein Complete Sibelius Symphonies. For me the sound is spectacular, his tempos are just right, and what he brings out in the orchestra is amazing.

Ho! I love BitchFest ! So I have to try to participate. I must admit, that not so long ago, I fell in the trap of the incense of the magazine Grammophon. Luckily i got out! For overatted Person, I can think of Guergiev and Pletnev (you may add Currentzis) as the conductor. And I would dare put Lang Lang in the overrated list as well. While he certainly has a great technique, he plays just like liberace sometimes. What a waste of talent. The Guergiev / Lang Lang combo in Rachmaninov is quite a thing!!

What you say about Beethoven’s 9th & Fürtwangler gives one great pleasure. .

My first time listening to La Mer was from one of those Karajan movies/fake live performance things he did, I think from 1978. Even the visual aesthetic perfectly matches with the sound they produce, so pretty and shiny and all those things. Then I listened to just the ending of Martinon's version, it sounds totally different, the phrases, the textures, absolutely everything and most importantly it actually reminds me of the sea XD. Great video David!

The Boulez Bruckner 8th with Vienna. I can’t figure out what the fuss is about.

Dave is 100% celebrity spokesperson material. I've seen your channel grow loads during the past year. I'd recommend doing top 10 most micromanaging conductors, top 10 most overrated conductors, your thoughts on the Schumann violin concerto and Ysaye's solo sonatas. Thank you for all you do.

Good video , Dave. As for Elgar's 2nd symphony, Barbirolli's earlier version (from 1954) is much better and quicker than the 1960's recording.

La Mer (under von Karajan) is “smooth as silk and glacially cool. It’s not the sea; it’s a swimming pool; it’s a canal; it’s a stagnant bog.” 😂

Ok, I thought you might be an ENTJ, Dave, but when you said how you expected the hate mail and enjoyed deleting these people permanently, I was sure of it. LOL! Fellow ENTJ here, which is why I started cracking up when you were talking about matters of taste, and listed things like "pitch" and "tonal firmness" (I call that 'centered tone'), and "rhythm"!

Hi Dave, have you made a video of the ten best ever recordings?

Very interesting talk - where I know the recordings I often feel the same. My own suggestion for most overrated recording would be the Dvořák Cello Concerto with Jacqueline du Pré with her husband conducting on EMI. I’ve often seen articles saying this is the one recording of the work you must have. JdP was a good cellist and her performances of Elgar and Schumann may be fine (though also a bit overpraised). But Dvořák is just not her composer and her particular brand of romantic lyricism for me undermines the concerto’s particular robust and individual strength. She also made recordings with Celibidache and Groves but the same applies there. Also the balance on the EMI recording pushes the important orchestra right into the background. Maybe hard if you are a cellist and Dvořák is not your thing but there it is. Fournier with Szell is always there for everyone to enjoy!

I used to love Jascha Horenstein but then you started criticizing him and I went back and listened. Wow! What was I smoking!? This is one of the things that has made me trust you so much as a critic. Also, I can't tell you the joy it gives me to hear you criticize Karajan's Debussy. You put into words how I feel about most of his work. Thanks so much for the videos, Dave. Happy holidays!

"It's not the sea, it's a swimming pool." Damn, David, damn.

I'll have to hear Horowitz with Szell in the Tchaikovsky, but I thought for sure you were going to say Toscanini. I suppose the sound is not good enough, but that third movement and its closing stretto is whipped into a frenzy!

Agree entirely about Karajan. However, I'm still a Horenstein cultist. I admit my ears aren't as knowledgeable about orchestra playing as David's. I can talk only about impact. Horenstein's Nielsen is my favorite. His Mahler 1 is surpassed only by Kubelik's (talk about an *underrated* conductor). I love his Mahler 3. His 8th makes the most sense of that noodling second part. His early Kindertotenlieder with Rehkemper for me stands first in line, not because of the high quality of the playing (a lot of clams from the orchestra), but because it conveys a sense of bleakness and despair unlike any other recording. His Rachmaninoff concerti with Earl Wild are gorgeous and exciting. I prefer them to the Ashkenazy/Previn set. No accounting for my bad taste. Speaking of Mahler, incidentally, whatever happened to Tennstedt? I remember when he was the greatest thing since Liquid Prell. Didn't do much for me. Do people still talk of him?

Dave, this video requires a sequel: the ICH Awards, devoted to the most egregious displays of Irredeemable Chutzpah in classical music interpretation ever preserved for posterity. For this first annual installment I would ask for an all-time so-far list: not just “historically informed” monstrosities like Snickerdoodle or Norrington, or the foppery of Currentzis on Beethoven and the Parthenon, but any cases across history when you have heard a recording and-like an irate Buddy Rich-found yourself yelling “HOW DARE YOU DO THAT? ASSHOLES!” (If you’ve never heard the tapes of Buddy Rich screaming at his band, I’ll have to send them your way.) What are the most egregious, inexcusable, irrational, most tsuris-inducing, most verkakte recorded approaches to a major work ever assayed? And each year you can greet new entrants into this Hall of Shame. I predict massive viewership for such a video. But I am also looking forward to the KOLAs. I like to celebrate the good stuff too. Bring out the scarf and kvetch, sir!

Walter's Mahler 9 VPO of 1939? Sinopoli's Tannhauser Boulez - anything romantic with feeling

For me Dave, i have two: the Bach St. Matthew Passion with Klemperer and his all-star cast. This recording is so slow as to defy belief. it is just one-damn-note-after-the-other. I find myself barely able to listen to about 30 minutes before i have to stop playing it. But everyone i know who love this recording all praise it for the same reason: Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, or She Who Can Sing Nothing Bad. i much prefer Gardiner or Munchinger or Herreweghe. The second one i consider way over-rated is Beecham's Magic Flute. The male voices are just poor - especially in light of who the two principals were replaced by (Rosvaenge for Tauber, Strienz for Kipnis). And Beecham just conducts this work just a little too fast and too rough - or is that the fault of the 78 rpm timings?

I think there are some classical/crossover superstars who are much more deserving of being called out as overrated than legitimate classical recordings from decades ago. In the big scheme of things today, these people have millions of followers, 99% of whom have never even heard of Carlos Kleiber or Andre Previn or Van Cliburn. I realize this may not be the kind of video that David would want to make, but someone should. Andrea Bocelli Charlotte Church Sarah Brightman Celtic Woman Bond Il Divo Lang Lang Jackie Evancho Lindsey Sterling The Piano Guys Andre Rieu 2 Cellos etc.

Yes, Here is my list: 1. Brahms Symphonies - Gewandhausorchester, Riccardo Chailly 2. Elgar Enigma variations - Barbirolli 3 Elgar Violin Concerto- Nigel Kennedy 4 Chopin Piano Concertos - Benjamin Grosvenor 5 Vivaldi Four seasons - Nigel Kennedy 6 Gorecki symphony 3 - Upshaw/Zinman 7 Beethoven Symphonies - John Gardiner 8 RVW London Symphony (original) - Hickox 9 Dvorak Cello Concerto - Rostropovich/Karajan 10 Schubert Symphonies - CoE /Abbado

There's a very obvious sequel to this video to be made - do I need to spell it out?

With regard to criticizing Van Cliburn's recorded Tchaikovsky B Flat Minor Piano Concerto performance (with Kondrashin conducting), do consider that a musician/pianist no less than Vladimir Ashkenazy regards Van Cliburn's Rachmaninoff 3rd (also conducted by Kondrashin) as being the best performance of this piano concerto ever recorded (Ashkenazy asserted this opinion in CD 32, titled "The Real Rachmaninov", of the 32 CD set of Rachmaninov's/Rachmaninoff's complete works, in which Ashkenazy and Rob Cowan discuss the Russian romantic composer; the interview is courtesy of Gramophone). Assuming there is at least some merit to Ashkenazy's opinion on this matter, is the Van Cliburn Tchaikovsky really that far behind Cliburn's Rachmaninoff 3rd?

Fame and Fortune! I got two of your list - Kleiber and Ferrier. My nr 1 overrated recording is the Glenn Gould 1981 Goldberg variations. Nr 2 is the Penguin Rosette Winterreise with Peter Pears and Benjamin Britten. Britten is greast - but Pears embodies Schubert meets nasal constipation.

David, This was not a concert but a recording of the Birmingham . It was a recording of Wagner’s “Flying Dutchman” it started out ok but around meas. 16 came the first mistake which after that, a new one began to show up over and over as the entire piece just started to fall apart. The conductor must have spent little time rehearsing this piece. I ended up laughing to the end. I recalled Spike Jones as this performance was on that par. Regrets to Mr. Jones who actually tried to perform in that venue.

Thielemanns Beethoven cycle belongs in here!

Well, sometimes a recording can be badly played, awfully recorded and still be a great recording. I do agree with your evaluation of the quality of these recordings mostly. But some of them are actually great recordings and somehow deserve their status, despite their flaws.

Dave, How about all those underrated recordings? That would be fun to consider.

Another variation on the theme of outgrowing the Penguin Guide: 1. Karajan's '63 Beethoven cycle (its very good, so are 20 others) 2. Klemperer's Missa Solemnis (better than Karajan's but. the. fugues. are. too. slow.) 3. Brendel's Beethoven 4. Andrew Parrott's Monteverdi Vespers (stiff as a board) 5. Colin Davis' Symphonie Fantastique 6. Abbado's DG Mahler cycle (good, but not great) 7. Rattle's CBSO Mahler 2 8. Giulini's Don Giovanni (the women are great but Waechter has no subtlety) 9. Karajan's Die Schoepfung (soloists great, choir blech) 10. The Baker/Lewis Dido & Aeneas (the lament is great, the rest starchy as hell)

I'm listening to the Kleiber Beethoven 5 right now and it's electric! But it isn't the most cohesive recording. It never quite settles, too rushed and tatty in places. Still good though!

Here are my suggestions (in no particular order): 1. Kleiber Beethoven 7 (As Dave has always pointed out, a rather mechanical recording) 2. Abbado LFO Mahler 9 (A particular favorite of British critics. Excellent but not quite Abbado’s best one [that’s the BPO one]) 3. Mackerras VPO Kata Kabanova (Good but not quite Mackerras’s best as Dave has previously pointed out) 4. Solti Schubert 9 (Surprisingly dull but managed to get a Rosette anyway) 5. Wand Bruckner 8 BPO (Another good but overrated recording Dave has referred to in the past) 6. Bernstein Mahler 5 DG (I know this is a reference for Dave and everyone else, but apart from the 3rd movement, I’ve always thought it wasn’t as exciting as others you could name - eg Chailly) 7. Zinman’s Beethoven Symphonies - any of them (not bad but not as special as others say it is) 8. Gardiner Schumann Symphonies - any of them (again, not bad but not as special as others say it is) 9. Szell Mahler 4 (Got a Rosette I believe, but Szell was never at his best in Mahler IMO - a touch stiff) 10. Colin Davis Berlioz Requiem Philips (excellent but not as special as British critics say it is - for comparison, try Bernstein or de Billy [a real sleeper IMO])

The strange thing about Karajan is that his recording of Pelleas and Melisande is stunning. I had my doubts about HVK's ability to interpret Debussy well, but Pelleas changed that. It helps that he has the most radiant, mysterious Melisande in Frederica Von Stade and the wonderful Rochard Stilwell.

With you much of the way 😄! Here's my subjective (amateur) view: Kleiber - Beethoven 5: a solid B+ (or A-), Beecham's Schehe: a bit syrupy, good for a pleasant tea with scones (B or B-); Furt's Nazi era Beeth's 9th: try the post war one instead. Karajan's Debussy: variations on themes of Debussy. Cliburn- Kondrashin's Tchaik 1: good for the competition, well-played, and memorable for its historical significance... Horenstein: there is an intersting Mahler 8 recording

I really enjoyed this. I'm a little surprised that no Bernstein with Berlin found its way here.

Wonderful. So good to see the Beecham Schezerade properly placed. Nowhere near the Reiner classic

Dave, Earl Wild recorded the Rachmaninov Piano Concerti and the Paganini Rhapsody with Horenstein and the Royal Philharmonic. I have not heard them. Have you heard them, and are they any good?

Can we have the 10 most overrated opera recordings, David. Thanks.

I totally agree about Horenstein. As a college student, I’d make treks to the library to check out discs, and wonder why my listening ears seemed so disconnected to the adulation joyed down by British critics. However, I don’t think you’ve been unfair. One of my joys is to find any good stuff from an artist I’ve previously dismissed. Based on your review, I tracked down his RPO Dvorak Ninth…and it’s very good.

In honor of the season, I nominate Colin Davis' LSO Messiah. (Yeah, I know it's not a Christmas work.) Good soloists but big, heavy chorus and orchestra. And the sound congests whenever it gets loud, which is often. And that damned tinkling harpsichord all the way through.

I’d nominate Karajan’s 1960s Beethoven symphony cycle. Undoubtedly very solid in quality, but the overblown praise baffles me, and frankly there are many equally good or even better versions. The Barbirolli/Barenboim recording of the two Brahms Piano Concerti seems to get a ton of praise on the internet, but I was very dissapointed by the sluggish tempo choices in the opening movement of Concerto #2. That movement also has some sloppy pianism near the start, though it gets better later on. Not a total loss, as they did at least interpret the first concerto very well. The Naxos CD of Liszt’s piano concerti under Petrenko/Nebolsin is technically solid in playing but rather dull to me, yet gets inexplicably praised. Totentanz lacks any menace in this interpretation.

Dave, I nominate Celibidache right up there as over rated. As far as Hornenstein is concerned I remember having when I was a kid in the early 60s having a Vox recording of Hornenstein conducting the Liszt Faust Symphony and the 1st movement was beyond slow but I thought it was great until later on I heard other versions played much faster tempi and by a better orchestras. But his version was considered wonderful by the English critics even though as it turned out it was dull mush.

When I started University in the early 80's, there were three musicians who died tragically who were given mythological status: Emmanuel Feuermann, Dinu Lipatti and Kathleen Ferrier on the vocal side (I was a voice major). Of the three, only Feuermann and Lipatti deserved the high esteem. As more time elapses, I feel Ferrier deserved almost none of the accolades she received. And I am totally in agreement about Horenstein. Leaden and dull as dishwater.

I could not agree more about most of what you are saying. Just a couple of points. Karajan's Debussy is certainly not what we have become accustomed to but that's not to say Debussy would not have liked Karajan's sonorities. Those recordings are worth buying in my view just to hear the BPO at their voluptuous best, a unique sound. A word also about the Halle orchestra which you call 4th rate. With the right conductor they could sound very good. Skrowaczewski's Brahms symphony cycle with the Halle is excellent, and even better is produced on a budget label, IMP.

3.25pm Gmt. Agree about the Previn/Rachmaminov 2nd my favourite is Walter Weller with LPO

So right about Horenstein. I bought everything I could find and I no longer own any of them!

I didn't ever know Furtwangler was famous for that 9th, nor that that 9th even existed. I only knew Furtwangler for his EMI Tristan und Isolde and that's were my knowledge of his work ends.

Hahaha at the "however" choice! Apart from him accompanying the Royal Phil and Earl Wild in the Rachmaninov concertos. He did alright there. Aside from that I totally agree 🙂

That was fun and instructive. Some of the comments below are too...

"La Mer by Karajan: it's not the sea, it's a swimming pool" That was a good laugh, love it!

David, well done! I fully agree with your list of overrated recordings. I listened to all of them because of he rave reviews and each of them was a great disappointment compared to to much better recordings out there!

For me two of the, if you like, 'reference' overrated recordings, in the Kleiber category of unthinking adulation, are the Barbirolli/Jacquline du Pre Elgar concerto and Glenn Gould's Goldbergs. Not that they aren't wonderful, but people tend to think that no other performances can possibly come near them. But for the ultimate overrated recording, maybe the Karajan Beethoven Triple Concerto on EMI?

How about the 1958 EMI recording of the Rachmaninov PC#4 and Ravel PC in G performed by Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli? It's the very personification of "much ado about nothing" ...

Bravo! All needed to be said.

Dave at his devilish best. Don’t listen to this while driving. You’ll wind up in a ditch, howling - in a good way!

I came late to the party, but I am loving these.

I would also add the Kubelik (DG) Mahler 1st. I find it a bit too restrained, plus he skips the exposition repeat in the second movement, which disrupts the flow of the work for me. I'm used to the repeat, because that was how I had first heard it. Also, I like my Mahler with a little more kick, and the recordings of the 1st by Solti/LSO, Ozawa (DG), Bernstein (DG), and Gielen are more to my liking.

Somehow I'd expected Mravinsky's Tchaikovsky 4-6 on DG to be in this list. Turns out it's as good as I always thought it to be.