Have no fear Buffy is here!!! What do we think of this season so far?

I love how down to earth and supportive Tara is, I think that’s her best quality

This is when the Trio's comic book super villan fantasy meets with real world concequences.

Using the R word is often really important - a lot of men who prey on women in vaguely ambiguous situations don't actually think of themselves as doing that. When they're sometimes coercive, deceptive, stealthing, when a woman's highly intoxicated, when their romantic partner is asleep, etc. they don't think of themselves as rapists. These guys didn't, and given their (im)maturity it was very believable that they wouldn't put two-and-two together until the word was used. I've heard some women say that if they find themselves in complicated situations it can sometimes be useful to blurt out that word to force a man to confront what he's doing.

How does everyone just forget that like, 3 episodes ago, when Spike found out he could hit Buffy, he thought his chip was broken and *immediately* ran to the nearest ally and attempted to murder the first person he saw?

"I don't get why they hate buffy" they don't they just wanna play supervillain and for their eyes buffy is a superhero

Your question as to why the Trio hates Buffy, I think the answer is they don't. Like Katrina says, they see it all as a game or fantasy. It's fun to fantasize about being a supervillain with an arch nemesis. In the case of Jonathan and Andrew they like the idea of being powerful and haven't thought too deeply about any of it. In Warren's case he is a real misogynist and psycho and he does not care who gets in the way of what he wants. Buffy, as a powerful woman, is a target for him. Jonathan never wanted to hurt anyone, including Buffy, but got caught up in the excitement of belonging to a group and feeling powerful. Which is just what he wanted in his Superstar episode. I also like to think it sunk in that what he did with the twins in that episode was also rape.

I like that the use of the R word hit Jonathan like a ton of bricks. You can see ge was so wrapped up in the comic-booky supervillian fantasy the fact that thats what it is never even occurred to him.

Spike did think the chip had stopped working, the first thing he did was go and try to attack someone

God Sarah Michelle Gellar was just stellar. There are a lot of things that made this show great but her acting was just icing on the cake.

Rana was the first one to say Warren is a problem in Gone I think. Now I hope it is sinking in how bad he really is.

I've always loved that Buffy chose Tara to confide in. Shows how much their friendship has grown since first meeting

Spike is a vampire without a soul... You guys seem to be forgetting that he is simply restraining.

I love how down to earth and support Tara is as a friend, I think that’s her best quality

Their reaction Seeing Red is gonna be crazy

I love the end of this episode. I love every time Buffy and Tara are friends. It's special.

Amber Benson, who plays Tara Maclay in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, dated Adam Busch, who plays Warren Mears, from 2002 to 2009. The two have remained close friends.

Such a good, but heavy episode. Rana has a clear perspective on Spike.

As someone who's been dealing with depression for years, let's just say that I completely understand Buffy's actions, and why she ends up hooking up with Spike. It's not healthy, but at least you get to feel something (bad) during and afterwards.

The key distinction between Spike and Angel is that Angel feels remorse for the evil things he did in the past, whereas Spike doesn't. Spike doesn't do evil things now because he can't, not because he has developed the capacity to understand why they were wrong.

#SundayRundown I don't think Buffy is torn to pieces because of the hookups with Spike. Spike is a side effect to what she's feeling, not the cause. Buffy is still severely depressed and traumatized from being ripped out of heaven. She was at peace, and abruptly thrown back into this cruel world. A world without her Mom, without hope, without purpose. The crying at the end to Tara isn't her feeling shame for boinking Spike, as much as it is her experiencing shame for feeling so depressed and helpless since coming back from heaven. She hasn't really talked about that with anyone 😔

This ep is just so uncomfortable... But in the very best way somehow?

And this is, why Tara is beside Cordi one of the real friends to Buffy, and not the other Scoobies

Tara’s story was entwined with Willow, so their break unfortunately removes Tara from the story. This episode was good Willowless Tara content. It was a really good idea to have Buffy rely on Tara to deal with her problems. I like mixing up character dynamics where we see people interact who don’t usually converse. Tara was a very supportive friend and wasn’t judgmental with Buffy at all. Just processed what she heard and tried to help her friend deal with it. Tara is a real one.

The Trio doesn’t hate Buffy, they love her. They need her for their delusion to be super villains. Super villains need a hero to have purpose.

"You accept the love you think you deserve"

Comparing Angel and Spike at this point is MEGA YIKES.

spike absolutely does love buffy and he is capable of doing good (as we’ve seen many times in the last few seasons) which makes him different from a lot of other vampires but he doesn’t have a soul and is still a demon at the end of the day which makes him incapable of feeling true empathy and without empathy love can only be unhealthy. buffy is a good person and wanted to turn herself in because she felt guilt and remorse and spike tried to stop her because he loves her and thinks one death doesn’t out weigh all the lives she’s saved which might be true but he can’t understand why she couldn’t live with herself even if she had taken just one innocent life on accident.

SMG has stated the scene with Spike on the balcony is one of the most degrading things she’s done.

One of my favorite episodes of the season. I think it brilliantly captures the theme's and emotional throughlines of the season. This is the season of rock bottoms.

Despite this being one of the hardest episodes in the series, for me; I was very curious to see The Normies reaction to it, considering past reactions to The Trio. Marketa's right when she says all three of them are complicit on all charges that would be filed. And the morality of what they were doing even when Andrew and Jonathon thought it was innocenr (Jonathan should even know better considering the twins in _Superstar_ wouldn't have been willing if they weren't under his _Jonathan is great_ spell. Rana, timetravel/undoing it wouldn't change the fact that it has already been done. Timetraveling doesn't change who the timetravelers are and what they've done. Reversing the actions doesn't change that. If timetravel hit more on those issues time travel wouldn't be so confusing and it would deal with more important themes than the fun of time travel. Also, Rana: Buffy realizing The Trio has been behind the dead girl issue doesn't solve the overall problem which made her turn herself in and beat Spike nearly unconscious. Until she deals with said depression and it's root cause, she will continue just sliding down slopes like sleeping with Spike, beeting him into near uncounciousness, and assuming turning herself in is a good thing. What I think is different from the "old school movies" Chris referenced and how they referenced the badness here, is that BtVS made it clear The Trio is wrong in all things (even before this episode), whereas those "old school movies" like the '80's John Hughes films, as examples, make it all seem like a good thing to get the girl through horrible means. The scary thing is most pop culture before _Twilight_ had society not recognizing problems in the relationships or how people handle relationships of pop culture. One of the many things I like about BtVS is that it was ahead of it's time in showing said badness for what it was, even if not always directly. Their goal for The Trio was to have fun and make inventions as they figure out how to "take over Sunnydale." What we see here is that Andrew and Jonathan thought it was all in good fun and were following the leadership of someone (Warren) who actually thinks he can take over Sunnydale, but also (clearly) wants to be evil, but is still just a creepy, little nerd. It's a danderous combination that has the writers showing the viewers, on purpose, the underbelly of everything Chris talked about with the "old school movies" while mixing it into the mythology of the show. I have a hard time understanding if The Normies understand Buffy's depression or not. They seem to be hitting some of the beats of why she is, but never outwardly just say she is depressed. And then start talking about issues about times before Buffy's depression. Buffy laid out how much she hates herself in this episode and how much she knows she's using Spike, but doesn't understand why, if there's nothing wrong with her after coming back from the dead. It all stems from being risen from the dead after being in heaven. Very little, if any said depression, involves Spike's actions with vs without the chip. Everything in Buffy's depression stems back to Willow, Xander, Anya, and Tara resurrecting her: Sleeping with (and using) the soulless Spike, the shame that's leading to not talking to any of her friends (it doesn't help that their resurrecting her has her have issues towards them), hating herself, and beating up Spike, etc. The Normies need to remember Spike is soulless. With the chip, he's just a dangerous dog in a muzzle. Emotions aren't the same thing to him as they are to people who have souls. The chip forced him to not seek out bloodlust issues, but the bloodlust is alway there and has never gone away. And good things he does, doesn't mean he's a good person, even if it means good things are being done.

This season is dark depressing, but except for a couple scenes (or episodes), it IS necessary. We all love strong characters when they're at their peak, but in this season they explore Buffy and the gang at their lowest, and (except for those 2-3 scenes) makes what's to come even more satisfying imo.

#SundayRundown Woah, woah woah. Nobody told you guys to give the super incel trio a chance. They were a little amusing in the beginning, but they are revolting. We meant that you should give Buffy ,the show, a chance. To trust that they will handle this properly. If you hate the trio, good. They are not supposed to be liked at all.

I don’t think they hate Buffy, they want to be super villains and Buffy is a superhero so they would eventually collide.

In this universe The Soul exists and is the key distinct feature in what makes humans even have the capacity for "being good". Vampires don't have that at all. In fact, the lack of the soul is what drives those "dark urges" to kill people, to cause mayhem, and to generally be evil. Angel has a soul. Spike does not. However Spike is a unique case in that he has a leash on his bloodlust. The chip in his head prevents him from doing harm to humans. But the first thing he did when he thought it didn't work, after punching Buffy, was try to eat a random innocent person.

I just want to say that the trio are supposed to be unlikable. I don’t think that people are saying “give them a chance” as far as finding them likable. It’s like if Andrew Tate was popular in the early 2000s and some of his fans just happened to be aspiring supervillains. They are children living out a power fantasy to take what they want with no consequences. Now they face real consequences and we see that Warren is unfazed, while Jonathan and Andrew show some remorse. They are all still evil though.

I feel like the Normies are missing two actually important things. 1) The Trio isn’t evil. WARREN is evil, and Jonathan and Andrew are two losers who want to be accepted and belong. They kind of just gravitate around Warren because he makes them feel powerful for the first time. Then the line between fantasy and reality get blurred (note Andrew and Jonathan reacting to the reality that what they were going to do was the r word). And with Warren in particular, he’s a total sociopathic misogynist. Every time his masculinity is damaged, he becomes more and more enraged. They don’t have an end goal with Buffy, they’re too deep in their fantasy to think that far ahead. Warren just hates her because she has power. 2) Spike. Spike is bad for Buffy. He pulls her into the darkness with him. Most importantly, he has no soul. When a human becomes a vampire they lose their soul and a demon takes its place. That demon is evil, chaotic, selfish, and has no conscience. The body the demon is inhabiting still has a brain though, with memories and personality traits. Spike was a hopeless romantic and poet as a human. That’s baked into him, soul or not. Spike without a soul, though, is always going to feel compelled to listen to his demon instincts to do evil things, to hurt, to take, etc. He isn’t neutered. If the chip was removed, he would lean back into those demonic instincts. Buffy deserves to be with someone that makes her feel happy and good about herself, someone who wants to see her thriving in the light. Spike is just infatuated. That’s not real love. Love requires a soul, in the Buffyverse.

Rana has the most clear prospective on Spike

In all the years that the Slayer has existed, you would think that over time the Watchers council would have thought to get some therapists on staff that know about the supernatural, so they can help Slayers deal with the trauma of this life

This is such a pivotal episode for this season and agruably the series. The nerds have done stupid crimes without any real victims or consequences until now And Buffy finally admitting to using Spike, how is that ok, and that she needs to be "abnormal" to explain the choices she's made lately. So many shows would have the main character be fine after the premiere episode or a handful of episodes in. Here we are episode 13 and Buffy isn't anywhere close to being ok or back to herself. Bravo for really diving into these topics

Even though it may seem Spike hiding the body for selfish reasons he was right. Buffy did save the world a lot, and Sunnydale didn't stand a chance without her. Even Faith said the samething but explained it poorly not to mention Giles told her that stuff like has happened before. Also in a way Spike does love Buffy even without a soul, mostly because as a human he was more compassion a poet a lover. Angel as a human cared little for noone or anything. Which is the reason he makes such a frightening vampire.

We already know what Spike would do if the chip stopped working because he straight went to try and kill a young woman just a few episodes back when he believed that it stopped working. This cannot be compared with Angel who is two completely different persons with and without the soul, the Angel that killed Ms Calendar is not the same Angel that Buffy later reconnected with.

The end scene is pretty noteworthy. It’s the second time Buffy has broken down in tears and laid her head in someone’s lap over a vampire. The first time was after she killed Angel; she cried in Willow’s lap, and now she’s doing the same and crying in Tara’s. Both instances involved a member of the same couple, and both vampires share the same bloodline.

This is an episode that I really really admire, but also find really tough to watch. I love the call backs to Faith (Consequences and Who Are You?) - they show that even though she's depressed and her feelings are chaotic, at her core she's still the slayer she was called to be. But also, I think this ep provides fantastic insight into the ways people can convince themselves - allow themselves to be convinced - to take action that goes against their own code or moral core. Buffy needs some kind of solace as she spirals, and she can't just let herself have it with Spike, so she has to convince herself that she's bad to allow herself to do it. It's horrible for her, absolutely toxic. But it's also one of the most honest, rawest depictions of how a person will let themselves do that that I've ever seen on TV. SMG's acting here is just immense (esp. consider that I think she really hated this episode). Plus the fight scene, Tara shines, and the Trio's final dreadful turn into proper villains. All executed so well. But also .... ugh.

I really liked the Tara/Buffy friendship, it was something different from Willow’s and Xander’s and it was precious in its own way.

You don't have to wonder what Spike would do without the chip ! We saw it ! The second he realized he could hit Buffy and thought the chip didn't work anymore, he went and tried to kill someone. I love Spike as a character, don't get me wrong. But, he is NOT A GOOD PERSON, or trying to be one. He has no ability for that. All the good he does is because of his love for Buffy. But you can't do good, real good things without doing it for the right reasons. That's why Buffy says those things before and after beating him up ! He doesn't have the capability to feel true guilt, remorse and disgust at himself for what he did. He could possibly be able to, if he had a soul like Angel. But he doesn't ! People sometimes argue that he doesn't need a soul, because of how much he changed. Some even say his love for Buffy, or what he does for her is proof that he is as good as a vampire with a soul. But NO ! That is not true. It's not a matter of opinion here. A lot of things are in the Buffyverse or IRL. But the soul thing in the Buffyverse is made clear. It doesn't make someone inherently good, it just gives you the capability to feel guilt, remorse and such. Without a soul, a vampire is NOT capable of feeling those things. That's a fact. When Angelus got his soul back, the flashback we saw with miss Calendar's clan... The second he got his soul back and remembered what he did, we saw the change in his eyes ! Same when Willow gave him his soul back at the end of season 2. Not having a soul doesn't mean you are not capable of being nice, or chose to do nice things. It means you don't feel remorse for the bad things you do. And there is no possibility for good, if you don't really and truly understand why things are bad or good... I can't go into details and exemples without spoilers, so I'll end here XD but, I wanted to say those things, because it kinda seems you still are way harder on Buffy than Spike. Thanking Tara for what she said about Spike is not wrong, but more for Buffy's sake and mental health than Spike, in my opinion. Because YES Spike changed. But that doesn't mean he is not a monster. He still is, always will be. A vampire without a soul is nothing but a monster. No matter what he chooses to do for selfish or half-selfish reasons...

This season also examines ..just what is or what makes a monster? What is the nature of evil..is it inborn like a vampire so unavoidable, or is a monster made? There are good, or neutral demons, and now we are exploring what makes Joe Blow evil. Spike is an escape for Buffy. Spike himself doesn’t yet know what it means to have a soul, or how to reconcile his evil acts with his desire to love Buffy in a meaningful way. Dawn is simply experiencing puberty in all its hormonal glory, on top of and stirred up by all the supernatural experiences and her very near death experience last year. She gets a lot of flack for being whiny, but she has legitimate reasons for her character being the way it is.

Spidey always has the best one liners lol

Chris: “He could be the first good vampire on purpose” We’ve got a bumpy road ahead so hang on but it will smooth out.

Rana was a mood this whole episode 😂

“It’s wrong. _I’m_ wrong. Tell me that I’m wrong, please. Please don’t forgive me.” “I’m evil! I’m bad! I’m evil! Do you hear me, I’m bad! Angel I’m bad! Angel, please just do it. Just kill me. Just kill me.”

On the nature of Spike, he doesn't have a soul which is from what the series tells us is basically like being without a Super Ego. So the chip acts as an artificial super ego for at least his ability to hurt humans, physically and directly. Don't forget the episode he found out that he could hurt Buffy the first thing he tried to do is feed on a normal person as he thought the chip was broken. So what we can take from this is that 1. Spike does love Buffy, as if it was just obsession turning to lust he could have just killed buffy once he found out he could hurt her. 2. He is still a monster, just on a leash, and the only other thing holding him back is his love of Buffy that keeps him doing good things like protecting Dawn, helping kill monsters, not feeding on random monster victims. etc.

I believe that Spike does not love Buffy, he is obsessed with her and that is why Buffy completely can't accept this addiction to him since its incredibly toxic

Your reaction was very entertaining . A few points that might help. When Spike thought the chip was no longer working in Smashed, he immediately tried to kill and drain a young girl. Spike has not changed , only the pain keeps him from killing. This episode also shows the inner emotional damage and fight for who Buffy is. The season has been showing Buffy becoming/ fighting the Faith- Joyce narrative.There is much to discuss about Buffy assuming many of Joyce’s roles while trying not to become the flawed woman that she was. In Band Candy we saw the younger Joyce that was reckless, not concerned about her daughter’s safety, having public sex without shame( twice!), and into rough sex. Recall her handing hand cuffs with a sheepish look to Buffy. Buffy with Dawn is not that different than Buffy thought of Joyce in the first 30 episodes. There is quite a lot but go back to Ted. Buffy thinks she has killed Ted. Joyce will lie for Buffy( recall also Lie To Me) but Buffy knows that is morally wrong and will take the difficult decision. Joyce , like Spike, will take the easy and morally wrong path to justify not facing personal responsibility. Buffy going to the police to turn herself in for accidentally killing Katrina, like she did for Ted, shows that Buffy no matter what, will make the right decision and not the personally selfish one. Now Faith and Buffy.Buffy has always struggled with her being like Faith. There can be an entire essay on that subject ( violence, sex, relationships) but for the first time Buffy has been placed in an environment that resembled Faiths . No parents, no Watcher,a struggle to survive, and looking for a connection to feel alive,even a creepy Mayor .The fight with Spike was similar and had the same feel has the alley fight of Angel and Faith in 5x5, Season 1 of Angel. Compare Faith screaming that she’s bad and begging Angel to kill her to Buffy beating Spike. Also when Faith was Buffy beating herself in the church in Season 4 of Buffy, the inner conflict showed on the faces displaying immense pain.Similar dialogue and violence. This is one of the last hurdles Buffy needs to overcome in her journey to becoming a strong, emotional solid and loving woman. True self love is almost never achieved. The doubts of Motherhood (Joyce) , sexual identity ( Faith), and inner self ( The Slayer) have to be addressed. I Only Have Eyes For You and Amends helped teach her the power and understanding of real and true forgiveness that has allowed her to put aside pride and embrace others.Now it’s the everyday challenge of being a woman that embraces real love has a Mother, a partner, an emotionally and sexual woman that is neither victim or abuser, and a talented person using her gifts for the positive and not only for personal gain.

Normies, May 20, 2024 marks the 21st Anniversary of when "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" series ended it's run.

Marti Noxon saying Spike could hurt Buffy because she "wanted him to" says it all. Most of the writers weren't equipped to tackle such storylines. Props to Sarah Michelle Gellar. Legendary.

Spike always had some humanity before the chip. The demons could smell it on him in throw back eps.

There are so many spoilers in the comments section. The perspective people have on spike is only due to the upcoming episodes, let them go through the episodes and experience it for themselves

after defeat a god its hard to find a greater villan. some people didnt get the 3 nerds but is the logical villans, because they are human, have a soul and the worst thing, they are real, you can find warrens not to far, from were you live.

Buffy’s birthday is the next episode. It’s great.

3:24 well that just curb stomped 20yo me's nuts geeeeeez

The scene where she beats Spike bc she hates herself is just like when Faith was in Buffys body in S4 and beating the crap out of herself.

Great commentary 👌🏾💕

Lol. You are gonna love the rest of this season

It gets a little murky with spike, but it is important to remember he is soul-less! He has done some good but also the kind of "love" he is capable of is similar to obsession/ he was also like that with Dru...when she left him, his plan was to just go torture her till she loved him again 😬 I think the show really bent the rules with him a little so it gets complicated

I feel like only Warren really hates Buffy, while Andrew and Jonathan are just along for the ride. The two of them never belonged, never had a group of friends to hang out with, etc, and now they do, plus Warren inflates their egos when necessary. Until Katrina came back out of the room and mentioned rape, they almost seemed to think that while she was under a spell, it was also something she was agreeing to. They seemed shocked about it and I don't think they were playing dumb, I think they just didn't see it as rape. I don't know if this is just because they are clueless in general or they are just dumb in terms of women and sex.

"Take a break and examine what happened." She's sleeping with him because she's numb to the world. And feeling degraded when with him is at least a feeling. He simply wants what he wants. It has nothing to do with her wanting a relationship with him. Or him changing... Spike has tried to kill somebody EVERY time he thought the chip wasn't holding him back. He's entered her home without permission to steal her clothes. Made a robot to do his sexual bidding. Stop comparing him to Angel. Angel and Angelus are two different entities. Angel is a human soul in control. Angelus is a demon in control. Spike isnt William, he's a demon with no remorse for anything he's done. This has been explained multiple times over the seasons about vampires. His relationships have to do with sex and violence. His plan to get Drusilla back was to literally tie her up and torture her until she took him back. Anytime somebody tells me they don't understand how people can stay in toxic relationships. I just tell them to watch Buffy and watch the wildness of people trying to justify this obviously toxic pairing.

This episode would be impossible if the network actually had censors working at the time.

Great reaction, guys! Loved your analysis of the characters throughout the discussion. Also, to all the Spike haters. GO TEAM SPUFFY!!!!!!!!! ❤

It is getting serious. Love it.

Bruh if pat says you should be doing good you're a supervillain

What I love about this episode and The Three in this season: you get to see the psychology of incels before there was a name for it. I grew up as a nerd, into all the same things they are into. Nerds are cool and nice. But we all knew a couple of "that kind of nerd."

Perfect counch here 👍 no more jokes and more serious review, please stay like that it's perfect

Tbh Spike only exists at this point in the show bc he was a fan favorite. I would’ve been interested to see how the show went if it wasn’t so geared toward spike fans. Even one of the writers was a huge spike fan and pushed these latter season spike centric plots. Curious how it would’ve went if that weren’t the case.

I don’t think the nerds hate Buffy . Warren does because she broke up him and Katrina . Andrew has a crush on Warren and follows him like a lap dog. Jonathan signed up to be a super villain without thinking it through and only just realising that he’s into something really messed up .

I hope Suraj and Mickey make it back for the next one, Older and Far Away.

This episode had Rana going through it 😂

Watch out, the Devitos are multiplying!!!

The real question is: what is going on at the Bronze with Buffy’s friends dancing the Charleston?

6 more episodes 👀👀

This is where The Trio become serious and not just a comic effect.

The crux of it is that he doesn't have a soul. By definition, that makes him evil in this universe.

one of the best episodes of the season and the series tbh even if it's a tough one

My thoughts on Spike are so complicated in this season. Like, he is a soulless vampire who doesn't have morals. But he is capable of feeling genuine love and care for people. He just has very little concept of how to properly comprehend right from wrong. And even though he wants to do good because of Buffy, he would have no compulsion to do good for the sake of doing good. He doesn't have a soul, so every good thing he chooses to do is literally because he CHOOSES to do it. Yes, also because of Buffy, and because of the chip... But he is a DEMON actively choosing to try to do good things. Like already waaaaay better than all of other soulless vampires. So I have a certain level of respect for his attempts. And it annoys me that Buffy has been using him, because he is genuinely in love with her. But overall I just feel bad for them both, because they are both just so lost and incapable of understanding how to be in a healthy relationship. It's so toxic, and they are both hurting themselves and each other at this point. I'm glad Buffy is letting Tara in on the situation. Tara can help her process everything. Unfortunately Spike has no ability to process the situation clearly, and has no one to confide in about it. His feelings are going to spiral and implode because he can't properly feel or understand how toxic it all is. And I acknowledge that Spike not having a soul means he isn't a good person... but having a soul doesn't mean much if you don't use it anyways, as evidenced by the evil trio. They are humans, with souls... but still capable of truly demonic behavior. Having a soul gives you the ability to understand right from wrong... but it doesn't keep you from doing right or wrong. We choose to listen to our souls/morality, or we choose not to.

I hope Rana knows that it's totally ok if she needs to step out of the room at any point. This series can get really dark and messed up at times.

When the comic relief villain turns out to be the worst one.

Loved the reaction guys its was priceless haha

The thing with the Trio is no one looks at them as a thereat as there human and nerds so there not doing anything about them this episode is to show both Buffy and the viewers there are dangerous and unhinged.

We saw in Smashed when Spike thought for a minute that the chip stopped working, he promptly went to grab someone to eat. Spike is still a soulless vampire.

I love that this is the episode that turns the Trio from goofy incels into actual threats. It brings them crashing into the real world.

Season 6 is in many ways one of the darkest seasons of Buffy...hands down. Its antagonists are human, not demonic...and that says a lot about humanity. After seasons of demons and outside forces and an occasional evil human here and there...this season settles into showing the Trio descending into real evil, and knowing its happening and sort of resigning themselves to it. Warren is their 'cult of personality' leader...and the others just follow...if a little grudgingly. As for Spike, he is still split between desire for Buffy inspired by actual passion...and his demon nature making any kind of healthy relationship impossible. In some ways, he's right...he understands the part of the Slayer that only exists in darkness and violence...and isn't horrified by it, which makes him unique in her world. In other ways, his love is obsessive and cruel, selfish and self indulgent. Even when the best part of Spike's dual nature is out front, Buffy is not emotionally ready to connect with it. Then...the rest of the crew has all had their issues as well...everyone is facing complex normal life personal problems...Willow with addiction, Dawn with adolescence and abandonment issues, Xander with the impending reality of marriage, Giles with the mixed fear of creating total dependence on him for support and accidentally stifling Buffy's growth as an adult, etc etc. Season 6 hammers home that none of the Scoobies have the luxury of carefree childhood anymore...and it makes for a season that can be hard to watch, and hard to predict, but somehow still amazing.

“buffy kind of sucks right now” as opposed to spike trying to manipulate/isolate her into thinking she belongs in the dark with him? buffy beating him was a bit much but he got physical with her first trying to stop her from turning herself in bc he couldn’t understand why killing someone (however accidentally) was something buffy felt like she had to come forward about i def don’t agree dawn had a right to be mad about that. and spike def still feels bloodlust with the chip lol

Spike. Can't. Love. Thanks.

"She needs Linda, from LUCIFER". Great idea, Rana. That would be awesome, combing the two shows. Great Post, Normies.

When you compare Spike's love for Buffy to Angel's, its the perfect comparison of soul vs No soul. Angel's love for Buffy is true, so much so that he loved her enough to leave, because he knew being in a relationship with an immortal demon who drinks blood, cant have kids and cant go out in the sunlight, isnt something he wants to inflict on Buffy. Spikes love for Buffy, being soulless, is more of a selfish obsession. He craves her constantly and is trying to cause a rift between her and her family so that he can have her to himself. Thats not to say that Buffy isnt abusing his feelings for her, she surely is, but their relationship is toxic in almost every sense, for both of them, and its no good. Spike is into being treated like a piece of shit, thats his kick, look at this relationship with Drusilla. He was with her for 100 years and she would basically piss off and leave him whenever Angelus was around, or any other demon that took her fancy (like the Chaos demon) and Spike would be left as a sulky little simp....thats what he thrives on. What Spike feels for Buffy isnt love as we know it, its what passes for love to a fucked up, soulless, kinky demon.

18:40 While it's obvious that Buffy is using Spike, he's using her as well. Yes, he loves her, but he has a very twisted sense of love (we've seen it in previous seasons with Drusilla and Harmony), and they're both very toxic for each other. And yes, what they have right now, NEEDS to stop. xd

I love spike as a character and he brings a lot to the show, but its concerning that there is more blame for buffy in this situation than him. He's literally trying to pull her into the darkness and isolating her from everyone. How is that any better or can be defined as good? Yes she's using him and its toxic on her end, but he also has a choice and is not some helpless victim. He's feeding into this and sees its as an opportunity to get buffy at her lowest state. She wouldn't of gotten together with him like this if she wasn't depressed. Anyways I feel like the spike/buffy dynamic changed after there first kiss in 6x07. Buffy gave in and there was no going back.

5:00 Rana, what's in your ear?

Buffy almost beat Spike to death. Time to go, man!

I love that this show chose to examine toxic incel culture over twenty years ago, before 'incel' was even a widely known term. Very ahead of its time.