I grew up Christian. I suffered from panic attacks, night terrors, and anxiety. It was compounded by my family and community telling me those were satanic attacks from the enemy, which made me even more anxious. After deconstructing, I feel calm, confident, and have a sound mind for the first time in my life. Looking back, I feel like Tweak from South Park: gaslit to death and controlled through fear, being told it was love, grace, and hope. If you are questioning whether you’re being manipulated or controlled, you are.

Why would we suffer eternally for something we did in a finite universe? Is that justice?! Thank you for asking the questions that have never made sense.

I always got a bad taste in my mouth when the pastor would say that we all deserve hell or we are filthy rags. Like, really?

41 years old, was a Christian since I was 7 years old. Recently gone through the awakening and can breathe for the first time. Thank you for being there for me with your videos. Please keep opening minds, your work is so valuable. Much love!

Let's be honest you are literally saving lives with this type of content

I “fought the good fight” from birth. Met my abuser in Bible College, went into youth ministry, and had a child. It wasn’t until the abuse started that I began to question god. I could not make since with why I ended up a single mom and lost myself. I was broken and traumatized. Was I being punished for a sin I didn’t know about? I loved Jesus so much, I served him with my whole being. I had “dates” with Jesus while my peers dated each other. I read and lived his “word” as closely as I could. It took an abusive marriage for me to see the abuse my narc deity had been doing from birth. That very god belief system wrecked my family for generations. And they were all in the ministry. The unfairness and injustice was too much for me to believe there is an actual loving god. Just no for me. Thanks but no thanks. 😢

I became an atheist after reading the Bible. I kept coming across verses that were very sexist but I kept ignoring them and making excuses until I couldn’t keep making excuses so I started asking questions. I knew that the Russian baptist church I was going to had sexist ideas about women, their role in the church, and marriage. At a Bible study I literally got yelled at because I said that women and men are equal and that women should be allowed to preach. I was only 16 at the time and it was extremely traumatizing. For awhile after that I still tried to find answers and I came to the conclusion that the Bible is a bunch of random texts written by a bunch of sexist men. I’ve become more connected to myself and a happier person since I’ve become an atheist. It feels empowering to hear preachers judge and shame people and it not affect me anymore. I no longer feel guilty for being human.

Im a Christian with a lot of the same questions,i deconstructed for most of what I have been taught I was a Mennonite,a baptist, and whatever Today I live my life by my gut feeling, basically I live by the inter voice, I stopped judging others. No I'm experiencing a freedom most Christians don't have a clue I personally believe that the doctrine of hell is a false teaching,i believe God will restore all things back to himself

Keep up the good work! I am glad I found your channel. I am on 2 years out, having been an evangelical for many years. The further away I get the more irrational my former worldview appears. Like you I have a desire to help those struggling to get out and get thier real freedom.

The church trains you to gloss over the incoherent parts. I changed careers to become an editor and with those tools suddenly "saw" all the stuff I had just let through without question all those decades: sense, continuity, and self-conflict in a work. Great analysis here.

Kristi has earned my “Favorite KZfaqr of the Year” award. Wonderfully honest, insightful, and authentic. Bravo, and Happy 2024! You are dear!!!

Roll into this conversation the _setup_ that is Original Sin, and _justice_ becomes a total farce. Would a loving and just Heavenly Father condemn to eternal torture _by default_ every one of his earthly children _just_ for being _born,_ an event over which none of them had any control are input? The _entrapment_ and hereditary nature of Original Sin _defies_ justice!

I've always enjoyed the quick, straight to the point Tiktik videos & had no idea she was on KZfaq. Subscribed!!

I'm glad I found your channel. You share some of the best views on deconstructing religious beliefs on KZfaq. Glad I subbed.

When I was very young the whole idea of hell and eternal damnation never sat right with me. Why would God punish normal people who weren't "Christains"? Now that I'm older, I can say without fear...I don't buy that.

When talking to Christians about this concept.. "Follow Jesus and all will be forgiven", I like to use the analogy of Myra Hindley, one of the Moors murderers, along with Ian Brady in the UK in the 1960's. She became "born again" just before she died, which means, according to the Christian faith she'll go straight to heaven, never mind she committed horrible acts of rape and murder on innocent children. And if the poor victims she murdered are also in heaven; I'm sure they'll be VERY glad to see her arrive!!

I appreciate that your content is focused, logical and obviously sincere, and hopefully will help many people in situations similar to yours. Keep up the good work!

Love this! Here's what I got from it: justice is of the earth and grace is of the spirit.

Kristi is doing a great job answering some of the same questions I have struggled with for decades. Possibly we're getting a lot of things wrong that is written in our bibles. I have recently started re-studying the bible and have found several things that are completely different from what I was taught as a Christian.

I so admire Kristi's honesty.

Just subscribed. Kristi has dissected and debunked this hogwash with thorough, logical analysis.

I prophecise this channel will become one of the best, most popular and resourceful atheist channels on YT

If Jesus was perfectly sinless, wouldn't that make sacrificing him perfectly unjust?

I just wanted to thank you for your videos. Although I came out as an atheist a little over a year now, I still watch videos to help me understand more. I must say your videos have been the most helpful. I feel like I'm sitting down with a friend and not a philosopher. Your way of describing and explaining things are truly down to earth. It makes it easier for me to speak to others when I'm questioned. Thank you so much.

I thought I was the only one to gave these thoughts Kristi

Loving your channel!

My response to Christians: if Jesus made the final and ultimate payment for all sins, why does your God send anyone to hell? Why do people get punished for sins that were paid for? Double indemnity much? Is this “just”?

Great one Kristi!!

Well done, Kristi!

Great explanation, on an unrelated note, your hair and makeup look🤌

As always you are super eloquent. Thank you for making these videos❤

I love your reasoning it’s on point!

All gods, past and present, have been invented by humans to satisfy emotional needs. It's pretty simple really. Religions have been created for the purpose of power and control.

My first experience in a church, i was 8 years ild, i was taken down to the basement and was told i was "the child if the devil" all because i started my period at that age. That has followed me all ny life, ive went back and forth with church, i was hurt the most by churches, 1 week ago i threw it all out, books, decorations, you name ir and i feel free for the first time in 60yrs Thank you kristi, you have been part of my journey and you make it easy and gentle for me to get through ❤❤

I really like your opening comments about the perception of deconstruction by believers. I feel like they believe we deconstruct using only sledgehammers. All our experiences are different, but I feel like a lot of us deconstruct like packing for moving - some things get kept, some get donated, some get tossed, some get repaired

Good work Kristi - a concise summary of the way the atonement is usually presented in a relatively short video. 👍 Even when I was still a Christian ✝️, I came to reject the notion of penal substitution as a load of piffle. I found that I strongly resonated with the ideas of Sharon L Baker (in such books as 'Executing God'). Even Gregory Boyd rejects penal substitution. It simply doesn't make sense (as you've just explained in this video). (Btw, the reason why I deconverted was because of the problem of suffering).

Yay!!! Another video

Kristi, I went through a huge mental breakdown regarding the toxic shame of my catholic upbringing and ran into your channel and have really dug into this subject. I have to say your channel is my favourite on this subject. Your knowlege and and clarity and kind approach is so completely comforting inspite of this crappy subject

Love the Jezebel shirt. Nice touch.

How can a being of 'divine love' hate anything? If it is 'all-loving' it should not be capable of hatred in any form. 🤔

Another great video. Thank you.

you are killing it!

So glad you have these videos, just found you today and already watched a bunch of them, and subscribed. You're not proselytizing, you're just asking questions, much needed questions. We're just talking and asking questions. That's all. Nothing dangerous here. The only dangerous things are the things that cannot be questioned. Questions such as, if justice is served, then how is grace given? And, if grace was given, how was justice served? So yeah, in conclusion, grace isn't justice, and justice isn't grace, they are mutually exclusive, they cannot happen at the same time without one canceling out the other. I left an evangelical church like 30 years ago, and I only wish I got out sooner.

Great work Kristi. Keep it up.

What i find strange is that god allowed people to sin in the Old Testament and didn't punish them. For example god asked Samuel to tell Saul to kill all of the Amalekites: men, women and children which is horrific. And i find it weird thqt god murders and asks people to murder for him in the Old Testament when one of the Ten Commandments is You shall not murder. Doesn't make sense to me.

Kristi u awesome tx 4 ur insight on this topic

I love your honesty 👍

The concept of sin, eternal torture and eternal bliss is the worst justice system humans have ever invented.

When I die I don't want grace I don't want forgiveness I want justice I don't want to be elevated into some place because I bowed down to some God I want perfect understanding of who and what I am and how I can grow to be a better person

Thank you. Well said.

Very nicely described the relationship between justice and grace, thank you

Kristi, thank you for your honesty. It takes courage. I have a question, would you like to believe there is something more after we pass on from this world? Just a thought. If there is nothing after this life, we will cease to exist.

Everything you said, I've thought before..but felt maybe I'm alone in analyzing the whole salvation message of Jesus in Christianity. Whenever a diehard Christian defends their faith, they typically use circular reasoning. "The Bible, the gospel message is true because the Bible says so..blah blah" BUT, the Bible is just an ancient iron age mostly historically inaccurate book written by men over thousands of years in order to form a religion. Thanks for all you do in explaining things! 👏

Again, my socks are rocked by the great Kristi!

By the way you make excellent points. Keep doing it.

Great video. Subscribed.

"God has no religion " - Mahatma Gandhi

You always put things together so well for anyone to understand especially mentally ill people like me or at least for me this is helpful. I always thought about how weird that was too that a murder gets to go to heaven if he excepts Jesus but if your a good person through and through to the very end of your life but didn't you go to hell. It really did sound like a unjust system especially considering how ours is on earth today, I tried using the murder here on earth example with Christians and asked them if they'd want a murderer to walk free while some innocent person paid they always answered no yet they would still argue in the end for God's justice being different because he's God and I'm like well that just doesn't sound right to me and then of course they'd pull out the you can't question God which just makes me question more, especially if the bible plays ring around the rosies (yes i used this pun for the round about but also because of the old nursery ryme to it, it's not as pretty as it sounds), it just kept providing me with nothing but more questions and they tell you to seek god even if that's to question his morals then they tell you not to and if you hear something outside they tell you not to believe that person (which is as fair as not trusting everything you you read on the Internet either so fair point but...) Then if I can't question then I can't find God and then you tell me he's in the Bible and I'm like omg dudes make up your freaking minds! You also say he's everywhere so why do I have to come to a church everyday and read the same book I do every Sunday every day when churches are meant for learning and praising if you want to do that more that's on you but I never understood why they were so clickish about it like no you have to do this like your life depended on it wait...............................................................nope I'm still here. It seriously got as tiring as my hypocritical parents, which I'm sure a lot of us have been here as well, I remember my alcoholic drug addict biological mother would tell me to do something or that something was wrong but she'd do it herself anyways and when I'd point it out i got reprimanded for it and back then we got spankings. 😢 I even have parents tell me today if you were a parent you'd understand way before they even know if I was or wasn't (course lucky guess they were actually right this time however...) I did actually do a lot of childcare stuff growing up and even if I didn't that is still such a pathetic excuse to me considering my biological parents abandoned me multiple times, even when they were there they would neglect me and most of the time my biological mother was almost always with some major abusive prick which luckily from as far as I can remember none of them ever hurt me but still you get my point, not every parent is qualified to be a parent even for those who have birthed one and some adopters even who have closed adoptions and who have never been parents or birthed a baby before and is adopting a completely different person from themselves but is a way better mom than the possible one that gave them possibly up, so the whole if this you would understand is bs and that's even with anything I'm RSS and you think i still understand everything mental health even my own no I still come across things. I have also figured out a kid's problem with her mother once about pushing her kid into dance when the kid just wanted to be a freaking kid and play with her Tinkerbell Dolls, the mom was not grateful but it's funny because my big sis at the time actually stood up for me and told her if her daughter told me a complete stranger about all this then maybe she should listen more closely and respect her daughters wishes too especially if it isn't harming anything. I mean my adoptive mom yeah took me a lot of places and we explored many different things but we did it together as a team and she respected my wishes of which activities I wanted to do which were pretty healthy for a kid like rock climbing (don't worry this was at rocks and ropes supervised) anyways these are just some examples. That's why I hate hearing if you were a parent you'd understand because it seems like I understand a lot more than they did or do half the time and at least I'm willing to speak up if I feel something is wrong and man up to my own mistakes as well. I'm not perfect and I don't pretend to ever be and I hate people assuming it of me or even worse expecting it. Too many redundant hypocrisies and as you can tell I've had a lot of that already in my life without the bible and the church so I don't need more of it. I respect those within that community and belief system but I no longer believe in the Christianity view either.

I really am the foretold end time Elijah as the world will soon see undoubtedly and I fully support this blessing

Hey I’m a devout Christian and I’m thankful for your videos. I’m going to use them in my church to teach people about Gods justice and how to logically think through our position and what you’re saying.

If I live a sinless life, but don't believe, where am I going when I die? Love the content btw.

The way I see it, God couldn't be bothered about how we interact with Him after all there's probably nothing we can do for Him (i.e. He doesn't need us). But how we humans interact with other life forms may be ALL that matters.🤷

Add to that the doctrine of predestination expressed in the book of Romans. According to the doctrine of predestination, “one can’t even choose to accept grace.” “It’s a gift from God,” and one has to “be chosen by God.”

New Kristi videoo!

You would be absolutely brilliant on atheist phone-in shows. I watch quite a few on KZfaq e.g. Talk Heathen and The Atheist Experience. Forrest Valkai is my favourite presenter. I could imagine you co-hosting with him. That would be a formidable partnership.

I love your channel.

Lovin the vids

There's a term for offering to spare someone from a threat YOU made to them on the condition you do whatever they say: EXTORTION

Why does God insist that I forgive, without ANY retribution of any sort, those who sin against me, all the while not forgiving those who sin against him unless SOMEBODY is the target of his wrath? That seems more than a little bit hypocritical on God's part, no?

Very good points I have to remember them and use them.

Just perfect!

Eye for a eye and a tooth for a tooth, equal Justice, Unfortunately our imaginary friend doesn't practice what he preaches. Justin Porter ex jw ❤️

Grace has also been defined as 'God's life in us." There's a promise by God in the OT (you can look it up). "A bruised reed I shall not break. A smoldering wick I shall not quench." It seems to imply that if we have even the smallest bit of God's life in us, God will fan it back into a flame. That's mercy. If we want it.

Great content, Kristi. I never understood the God system of justice. You could literally be the worst person in the history of the world, but if you accept Jesus, you're accepted into heaven. Riiight.

There's the parable about the laborers in the vineyard. Some came early, worked a full day, and were paid a full day's wage. Others came much later, worked much less, and were paid the same as those who worked all day. The early-comers naturally rebelled because those who worked less were paid the same. The parable illustrates the balance between the justice of God and his mercy. It seems to imply that the worst sinners might receive the same mercy as saints. Saint Isaac of Syria said that, "When compared with the great mercy of God, our sins are like a handful of sand thrown into the ocean."

Let’s go one step further. The innocent person that is taking the punishment for the guilty isn’t even serving the full sentence. He only served what three days? So again, where is the justice?

Imagine being in heaven next to someone who murdered several children in a school because he was lucky enough to utter the magic words to god before getting shot by the cops.

I'm a life-long atheist, but my primary concern on religion is The Bill of Rights, Article One: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibit the free exercise thereof." This first amendment to the Bill of Rights established that we have freedom of religion and that our government is secular in nature. As long religionists respects that we are OK. But if they try to force their religion on others or attempt to impose a theocracy on the U.S. then we have a big problem. Such people will have to be taught theocracy has no place in the U.S.A.

It is very important to tackle the issue of hell and to respond to the all too common apologist argument that people are not cast into hell but they sentence themselves to hell because they reject Christ. The doors are locked on the inside. C S Lewis makes particular use of this in the problem of pain and many other preachers and Christians have followed his example. This argument really disturbed me and I found myself in a double bind. One of the main reasons why I rejected God and Jesus was I thought hell was an unjust and an utterly pointless punishment. But part of me was terrified I would go to hell because I rejected Jesus because of the doctrine of hell. I suspect many people get knotted up in this very painful and traumatic dilema. I now think the "People sentence themselves to hell" argument is both very very manipulative and is also ill founded and rotten. The whole thing assumes four premises (1) The evidence that God exists as a loving God and that Jesus exists as a loving God man is absolutely overwhelming. (2) The "good news" about God and Jesus is equally available to every human who has ever lived (3) It is equally easy for everyone to accept God and Jesus - after all if it was much harder for some people because of circumstances out of their control that would be chronically unfair (4) It is blindingly clear and obvious who has accepted God and who has not (bearing in mind many Christians make a big thing of asking Jesus to enter their lives but then will keep certain rooms of their "house" locked against him (or what they think is him) because they are so frightened and ashamed of what is going on there. Meanwhile many who find it hard to accept a father God because of abuse they suffered from a parent at an early age may not be perfect but spend more of their life going out of their way to support and help others - far more so than many Christians who go to church and have said the sinners prayer and asked Jesus into their lives (and may drive to church in a BMW) . So this argument that people choose to go to hell crashes to the floor and breaks up (because all four premises it is based on are simply not true) And what happens to children who are still born and very young children and very vulnerable adults amidst all this? The question "what do you expect Jesus to do with those who reject him" is a false and manipulative question in the same way as "are you still hitting your wife" can be a false and manipulative question (if the person may have their faults but is not a wife beater) I think Kristi you and other really good desconstructionists need to address this question full on. It causes such anxiety and misery.

When you realize and accept that religion was created by men, for men, everything starts to make more sense. History for one.

Literally doing gods work everyday 😂

What happened to the people who died before Christ if salvation is only through Christ and you died before him how are you saved? Christians say you will be judged by your actions because Christ did not come yet but yet how could that be if the only way is through the belief in Christ? What happens to children when they die? Christians say there is an age of accountability yet no where in the Bible does it say that. What happens to Jews who worship God but yet do not believe in Jesus? I have had Christians tell me that there is a exemption for Jews. Perfect justice has exemptions? Could it be that Heaven and hell are places of the mind and not physical places at all?

Fantastic description of deconstruction.

If God is just and justice why my cheater wife blessed and happy with her man? Why is He so unfair?

When you look at disparity of wealth now, and God is all powerful, you can't say God is just.

Can justice and grace coexist. What a good question!

You are such a great communicator. Did you go to seminary to sort all this stuff out? Where did you come by your common sense insights?

God created us in a way that made us incapable of sinlessness. He then wants adoration for saving us from the sins that we were incapable of not committing. It reminds me of an episode of M.A.S.H. where Hawkeye had a flashback to childhood, remembering when an older boy pushed him out of a boat into the water, knowing Hawkeye couldn't swim. The older boy eventually pulled Hawkeye out of the water, and expected gratitude for "rescuing" him...

You have no understanding of Christianity.

I really appreciate that you actually thought about some of the things you believe and have the bravery to question your faith and why you believed what you did. Take your video on Noah's Ark for example. I often wanted to ask God "How's it workin' for ya?"

Wait, you mean morality and justice are more complicated than a Jack Chick tract⁉️ 😉 Keep up the great work 🙂

You don’t always get what you deserve, that’s just life lol

Oh, celestial justice, what a delightful concept! Because, of course, nothing screams 'fair' like wiping out firstborns, performing divine C-sections, and endorsing stone-throwing sessions for Saturday lumberjacks. Truly a rational and balanced view of justice, wouldn't you agree? And let's not forget the pièce de résistance: the spectacular flood! Drowning almost everyone, including the critters and little ones, is obviously the path to a heavenly just society. Who needs an overpopulated world anyway? Ah, but the gem of the legend: sacrifice to forgive sins. Because, you see, if this god is the judge, defined what's sinful, and on top of that is all-knowing, he's basically trying to save us... from himself? And the hell he crafted, even though he knew all along who'd end up as the unlucky eternal barbecue victim. Very logical and coherent, don't you think? Ah, divine wisdom in all its sarcastic splendor.

This is a great question and I've also pondered it myself. I think it's justice because the person against whom the offense was committed (God), willingly chose to pay the debt themselves. It's like if you owed a huge mortgage to Bank of America, and then the President/CEO of Bank of America decides to liquidate their own assets in order to pay off your mortgage. That's why it's called forgiveness. It came at a cost to the creditor (sacrifice), it was an underserved gift to the debtor (grace), and in the end accounts were balanced (justice). A lot of people have been severely hurt within "Christian" circles and that is extremely tragic. There are a lot of scammers, hypocrites, phonies, sociopaths, etc, who infiltrate communities of faith and cause tons of damage. The New Testament explains that this was an ongoing problem back then, and would continue to be. Jesus was a Jewish teacher who was crucified although he did nothing to deserve it. Read the the Roman historian Josephus if you want sources other than the Bible. It's also a historical consensus that after Jesus was crucified, his body went missing and his disciples began proclaiming his resurrection. They were willing to die all sorts of gruesome deaths, rather than deny. The earliest Christians had no earthly incentive whatsoever to claim that Jesus had risen from the dead. On the contrary, they were severely persecuted and had every earthly incentive to deny that it happened. There are plenty of great resources out there. Obviously, if there are two contradicting narratives, only one of them can be true. Jesus said, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John Lennox is Professor of Mathematics at Oxford University. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/qst8pZaprt23po0.html

There is no substitutionary atonement in Eastern Orthodox Christianity. God does not send us to heaven or hell. We choose to be with God or not to be with Him. Do we desire God in our hearts or are we indifferent in our unbelief? It is as simple as that. Every time you choose God or show love toward your neighbors, He pours more love into your heart. God judges our hearts based on how much love it contains. When we die, He looks to see how much love our heart expresses toward Him. Do we want to be with Him eternally or not? It is always our choice. Justice is built into the system indirectly. When we sin, we act without love. As human beings we need love. When we act without love, we are starving ourselves of love and therefore we suffer. On the other hand, God rewards us by pouring more love into our hearts every time we express love toward Him or toward our neighbors. When we sin, some of that love leaks out. If we continue sinning, our heart may run out of love completely and fall into despair or hatred. Christianity is not about ideologies. Christianity is about Christ Himself, who chose to die on the cross in order to reconcile us to Himself by destroying death. There is no more Hades, only eternity with or without God depending on what we choose.

im a believer but the thing that has turned me off from Christianity is Christians who claim to be loving and compassionate, which they arent. They truly make me want nothing to do with God.

Concisely and accessibly put, on top of being entirely non-confrontational. This is pretty much a perfect resource for those deconstructing. I have to say, analogies regarding salvation seem to have evolved over time. In the Bible, it's all about blood sacrifice - Hebrews is particularly obsessed with it - insisting the nothing can be forgiven without blood, which raises the question of why Jesus was able to forgive the sins of the paralysed man before any crucifixion took place. The murderer on trial analogy you raised was interesting, because the variant I'm used to hearing is Jesus paying a fine for you. The people who put that variant around seem to instinctively understand, in spite of the idea of 'all have sinned and fallen short...' that certain punishments being waived are going to be more palatable than others. Murderers or spree killers I find are more likely to be used in analogies of justice rather than grace. Of course, given Jesus' payment has supposedly already been made, the situation is more like, as some people have put it, same punishment for literally everything, except the judge lets you off if you're friends with his kid.

Speaking of divine justice, I’ve never heard anyone address this dilemma: Hebrews 9:27, It is appointment unto men once to die, but AFTER this, the judgment”. But Romans 1:28 clearly states “God gives some over to a reprobate mind”, suggesting God will judge and sentence some to eternal damnation BEFORE their appointed death. If He wants to extend every opportunity for us to be saved during this short life, why would He just give up on some prematurely? The bigger question is, if God can convict some before they die, why can’t He save everyone after they die? After all, Romans 10:9 says, “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED.” But then, speaking of the final judgment in Romans 14;11 the Lord says, “every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess”, but we know they’ll be cast into outer darkness. So if everyone will ultimately CONFESS AND BELIEVE”, then why won’t everyone be saved? If God’s desire is that none should perish, then why create this arbitrary deadline for salvation, while arbitrarily condemning others before the deadline?

I've often heard the analogy of the courtroom from some of the more famous apologists, about a person who committed some minor mostly-harmless crime, and owed a fine, and the judge says "actually I'll let you off the hook if [insert favorite metaphor for salvation here]", and my thought has always been to take that same mentality and scale it up. What of a murderer who was offered that same very literal get-out-of-jail-free option? Do you really want such a person to receive no punishment and be let back out onto the streets where they might harm even more people? After all, they now know they won't get in trouble for it, so what's there to convince them not to? Hearing you jump straight to this version of the analogy, and THEN say that old-believer-you had thought this was a good argument FOR salvation, gave me a fit of whiplash. I hear what believers say, and I try to understand them, and I thought I about had it down at this point, but I guess on some level I still can't fully grasp the sheer depths of moral depravity that these religions inflict on otherwise loving and understanding people. I am so glad you found your way out of that and have noticed how twisted this supposed "justice" truly is. Thank you for helping others in similar situations to understand it, too.

I just discovered your content and it is fantastic! I have come out of Mormonism that has a little different take on the concept of divine justice. Mormonism posits that there are laws that god is subject to (and is thus not fit with the multi omni's) and for god to keep being god he is bound by these laws otherwise 'nature' would rebel. So, Jesus task was to fulfill the demands of justice so god could extend mercy. It still doesn't make sense when you really stop to think about it. In trying to solve some of the problems of Christianity, Mormonism creates lots of others. Whether it is Evangelical Christianity or Mormonism's brand of Christianity the fact remains that punishing an innocent being for the 'crimes' of another is absolutely unjust. Just think about how we recoil when we learn of a person that has been falsely imprisoned. Perhaps the workaround that a Christian can posit is that Jesus did it willingly, but that still doesn't make it just.