At its core, the debate between heartland and meso is a question of whether or not you believe that Joseph Smith knew where it all happened.

Murph, having Jonathan on is a great measure of your character and willingness to be open-minded. I can learn from that. I do wish Scripture/Book of Mormon Central would do the same.

I love Johnathan Neville!!!❤ It takes honesty and integrity to admit he has changed his mind about Heartland!

Excellent discussion. One point not touched was that the Heartland models have a realistic proposal for how the Lehites came to America, which is around the Cape of Good Hope and across the mid-Atlantic following existing winds and currents the whole way. All Mesoamerican models fail right from the beginning as long as they are based on a trans-Pacific crossing against all prevailing winds and currents.

I prefer the Heartland Model, but with Hemispheric consequences. Much of the Central and South American evidences could simply have been influences instead, or other people brought to the continent in general. Much of the Mayan Culture also predates the Nephites, as well as post dates them as well. The Hopewell tribes in the Heartland, are perfectly analogous though esp in timeline and architecture, movements northward and their eventual disappearance.

Excellent discussion. Jonathan is a reasoned, thoughtful advocate. There's a good spirit about him.

Jonathan did an awesome job answering that barrage of Questions. How many tough questions did you ask Brant and Jerry if any??

I visited Nauvoo several years ago. When I was asking a senior missionary couple about some mounds that were across the street from our Air BnB, the elder went off on me! He was almost angry as he was telling me how the Heartland model had been debunked by some PhD student. I think it was so upsetting to his wife, she messed up on her weaving demonstration she was showing me. I have to admit that my heart was hurt after his attack. A day or two later, I ran into some OG Heartlanders doing a friend tour of some mounds in the area and was invited to go with them. I went along and learned a lot and very much enjoyed it. When I told them what had happened with this senior missionary, *they* started going off about how people couldn't see how the Heartland is the truth, etc. I was a little shocked by their response. My testimony is not based on where I think the BOM took place. BUT, I *do* have to say that I've learned So Much more about what the BOM says, what Joseph Smith taught, AND all about ancient peoples of the US (which were NEVER taught to me in public school)! If nothing else matters, my knowledge has been increased about actual truths. My testimony of the BOM and of Joseph Smith as a prophet of God and the leader of this dispensation has been solidified by my reading and learning about the Heartland model. (Funny- I never said this when I believed in the Meso-Model/MC2.)

I enjoy your approach as well as Jonathon on this topic. Very welcoming.👍

I great up thinking Book of Mormon lands are in Mesoamerica but had major questions like: virtually no knowledge of metallurgy, almost entirely built with stone and the Maya language has nothing to do with Hebrew, or any other known language. I watched Wayne May some 15 years ago and it all made perfect sense. Since then, I've studied a lot and have traveled throughout Ohio and Western New York, and Maya ruins in Mexico and Central America, and what Joseph Smith testified and it's no question, Book of Mormon lands are in the U.S., where Neville says they are.

Great episode: one critique, the Lamanites were instructed in writing, and the people of Nephi knew writing to the extent that they hoisted titles of liberty across the land… Here’s where the priests of Noah taught the Lamanites writing: Moriah 24: 4 And he appointed teachers of the brethren of Amulon in every land which was possessed by his people; and thus the language of Nephi began to be taught among all the people of the Lamanites. 5 And they were a people friendly one with another; nevertheless they knew not God; neither did the brethren of Amulon teach them anything concerning the Lord their God, neither the law of Moses; nor did they teach them the words of Abinadi; 6 But they taught them that they should keep their record, and that they might write one to another. 7 And thus the Lamanites began to increase in riches, and began to trade one with another and wax great, and began to be a cunning and a wise people, as to the wisdom of the world, yea, a very cunning people, delighting in all manner of wickedness and plunder, except it were among their own brethren.

The more I study the Ojibwe the more parallels I see with Book of Mormon people. Even Adam-Ondi-Ahman has an Ojibwe translation! I put up a presentation on that translation yesterday.

M2C guys just realized the B of M doesn't talk about rain and jungles so have concluded it all took place in the Atacama desert. 😮😅

I appreciate the balanced view of this topic. Curiosity and open mindedness is essential to finding truth!

It seems logical to me that the Heartland model makes sense from the revelations of prophets and the evidence

I don't understand why there cannot be two places called Cumorah, in the Book of Mormon and even in our early pioneer history it was common to name people and places after previous people and places. The Lamanite Jerusalem is one example: "1 Now when Ammon and his brethren separated themselves in the borders of the land of the Lamanites, behold Aaron took his journey towards the land which was called by the Lamanites, Jerusalem, calling it after the land of their fathers’ nativity; and it was away joining the borders of Mormon." (Alma w1:1)

Mormonism with the Murph is such a great channel. The Murph always asks all the best questions so we can get all the answers we are looking for.

I really enjoyed this interview Nice job

Jonathon is absolutely correct. It's Heartland or bust. (That's why my shelf busted).

Excellent content

I am an associate editor for a major medical journal. I seek out peer reviewers every day. Unfortunately, many peer reviewers look only at the value of an article from their own opinions. They are highly critical of the smallest flaws in those articles they think are not in agreement with their ideas. They fail to see flaws in articles that support their views. The entire peer review process is very flawed in that discourages thinking outside the box. History is filled with examples of traditional thinkers trying to prevent new ideas from being explored. I recommend Rupert Sheldrake’s book ,”The Science Delusion.” Jonathan Neville might think of titling his next book, “The MTC Delusion.”

Wayne May reported that parrot bones are found as far north as the Great Lakes indicating that the weather was much warmer in the heartland area. The parrots now are largely found in Florida.

I love this discussion. I am deeply in the Heartland camp for the same reasons Jonathan mentions specifically Cumorah, but the truth is, everyone can be wrong (it isn't either or). I can't wait to find out the absolute truth probably after I die. One issue that I have with all these discussions is the same I have with critics regarding the parting of the Red Sea or other miraculous things that have occurred in nature. When the discussion turns to New Madrid earthquakes vs earthquakes and volcanoes in Mesoamerica, I think it is really irrelevant and ignores God's power to think that we need evidence that a great catastrophe has happened in North America in modern times that we can relate to the destruction followed by the 3 days of darkness in the Book of Mormon. Saying for example that the scope would not be big enough based on modern history, or that an earthquake couldn't lead to extended days of darkness is missing the main point. The fact is, if God wanted to make three days of darkness for everyone in all of North America or the world for that matter, He could and we don't need to know how. If he wanted to selectively submerge cities and cover them with dirt or raise mountains, He could and He could using nature to do it. We have absolutely no proof that the catastrophe in the BoM happened the same way as the Madrid earthquakes, so the Madrid quakes are not proof of anything. To me, it is all way to speculative to bring it up at all. It's the same as explaining two days and a night in light. Even Book of Mormon Central says there is no way to determine How God made night into day, before discussing possible ways He might have done it. It might help people's faith, but faith should be in God and not in logic alone. Just like the Red Sea, we either believe or we don't that God is all powerful. Trying to prove the Red Sea parted or it is possible to part by normal occurrences in nature is totally and completely irrelevant. All things are possible for God, and He could do it once or hundreds of times if He wanted to.

Brother Jonathon !!

One thought on the calendar point is that we are mistaken if thinking of January as the start of the year for them. Unless im mistaken (totallly possible) the Hebrew calendar year starts closer to April. Would have to go and research to confirm of course, not going to do it right now though

Very interesting...

What wall did Samuel the Lamanite stand on ?

May I ask why you don’t speak of the “whole face of the land was changed, cities sunk, etc., which the Book of Mormon speaks of? Wouldn’t the land be very different today and how can they be compared?

Ezra Taft Benson in his Oct 1979 General Conference talk specifically states “America is a place of many great events. Here is where Adam dwelt, where the Garden of Eden was located. America was the place of former civilizations, including Adam’s, the Jaredites’, and Nephites’. America is also the place where God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, appeared to Joseph Smith, inaugurating the last gospel dispensation on earth before the Savior’s second coming.”

Rod Meldrum and Wayne May have shown many artifacts that show two groups of people at war. Also menorah 's and hebrew writing showing Christ. Take a look at what eject have.

I agree with Jerry Grover, the script is an abridgment of many scripts and time periods and the latest rendition which would include a combination of relevant writing styles. I would suspect there were Maya influences. The Maya influence Jerry refers to are minimal and numerical. As if it were easier to use those numbers. It’s the same reason Nephi utilized Egyptian script with Hebrew language. North Americans were forced into an oral history constantly fleeing. They did use birch bark scrolls and hid them. In the past 400 years they have lost and are relearning their old ways. Their worship of God refers to “The Great Spirit” a name King Lamoni uses and Joseph Smith uses while teaching the Lamanite as he refers to it, purely with the Algonquin Tribes. They were pushed North into Canada and started returning in 950 AD. That and their blood is literally the only DNA connected to Israel and “lost tribes.”

57:00 The Lamanites were mainly naked except for the loins covering. This suggested a warmer climate. However, during the Nephite period, North America was a lot warmer than today. There was a global weather pattern change around 1200 AD. Wayne May picked up on this; watch a few minutes of this clip kzfaq.info/get/bejne/b7V-ja2St6m6p6s.html

Actually that wiki page is indicating the Early Woodland time period, not the time period of the Adena existence. The Adena did exist in the latter part of the time period. Also I listed the academic source for the Adena, but unfortunately it did not have an online link, so I just included wiki as it had a discussion of the topic, not as an academic source.

Where is that platform 9 and 1/2? It has to be close

3 Ne 7 talks about King Jacob fleeing to the "northernmost part of the land,". But I agree that with hastily built city built with thatch roofs and lit with oil lamps or candles; any mild shaking could cause the city to burn down per 3 Ne 9:9.

An example of the Nile river being called a "sea" in the scriptures is 2 Nephi 21:15, where the lower Nile is called the "tongue of the Egyptian sea"

On the caractor’s document, he employed a logical fallacy (bandwagon and/or composition). He doesn’t address Jerry’s work specifically, he doesn’t seem to know anything about Jerry’s work on the caractors document. Which is fine, no one is expected to have read everything but he should just say that. Instead he dismisses it because of other opinions and works that are out there (ones that are much shallower in their level of research). You have to evaluate each work based on its own merits. The amount of work and professionalism and scholarly discipline that Jerry put into that book is impressive and deserves to be taken seriously whether he got every word of his translation right or not.

3 Nephi is pretty clear that "the voice" was heard just at the end of the three days of darkness, and Jesus immediately followed. No way could that be interpreted 8 months or a year.

As far as the Bernhisel document, if it did represent Joseph's words and he said it was accurate, that's still pretty vague. Why do we assume that he was referring to Nephites in Meosamerica? Remember the Book of Mormon details two main civilizations and the original Jaredite civilization was upon the Americas for a period that was longer than the Nephites. If you look at other civilizations throughout history, there are always tribes that break off. The Jaredites had many wars and factions throughout their history, and I think it's possible, perhaps probable, that people migrated further south over the course of generations and founded civlizations far removed from North America and when the final Jaredite civilization collapsed it would have made no impact on remnant breakoffs that were forgotten about generations ago and were separated by thousands of miles. Joseph was aware of the Jaredites and for all we know, he had them in mind when he read Bernhisel's books.

Why do we think that Prophets would know either way? I think if any have ever commented on it they are just speaking with their scholar mind like Bruce R. McConkie did so much and was wrong so many times. That isn't something the Lord would use their Revelatory authority to reveal. It isn't essential to our salvation and I don't believe the Lord would reveal it to a modern day seer. That argument doesn't hold any weight for me.

You should look at the Scientific American article, “A Major Earthquake Zone on the Mississippi” by Arch C Johnson from 1982. A very informative study/article written before this debate started. Is a look at fault lines earthquakes by a scientist that has no dog in the fight. I recommend this because the thought occurred to me that the comparison on volcanoes/earthquakes in Central America and/or North America to 3Nephi is that there are Volcanoes and Earthquakes in both locations. If I recall correctly the above article will do the same and SA has a 2010 article that would conclude that the far reaching breadth of the New Madrid fault should cause all who live in the eastern United States may want to consider this fault in their preparation for calamity even though their are those who would present evidence that the promised land and Nephite culture is in Guadalajara If New Madrid goes off all us East coasters stand to be in the way regardless of where Nephites threw atel atels

I feel that people are missing the obvious. A separation of king an prophet fits the heartland model with the Native Americans who have a chief and a medicine man. A king over a king fits the meso-american model. Both forms of government are represented in the Book of Mormon. If they traveled by boat this would be that difficult. We already have evidence that people from the Yucatan peninsula had contact with Georgia. It's not either or it's what happened where.

The letter of South America only states that the Book was correct for "this" country, the writings of someone that wrote about his findings of South America . Not taking precedence over what Joseph Smith already stated to his trusted friends and family that Cumora was actually in New York and that the Nephite people inhabited North America.

I appreciate the credible, exhaustive research of Jonathan Neville and others. It addresses many unanswered questions, including the “fact” of the Hill Cumorah in NY; two sets of plates, and two messengers, Moroni & Brother Nephi.

The Mississippi wasn't just a river back then it was so wide it could easily have been considered an inland sea.

12 And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Which North American Indian tribe will fulfill this prophecy?

why havent they excavated further into Zelph mound? I would think that they would want to.

And if you want to know what happened those three days, just consider the eclipse tracks all over you tube. Alif Tav A and X. I wonder what would happen if the Cascadia subduction zone set off Mt st. Helen's and her sisters, and the Texas volcanic zone went off, and the New Madrid ALL HIT AT ONCE. Do you think that might give such destruction as 3 Nephi? Because I do.

Dust settles quickly sure, but the New Madrid Earthquakes could last for months, enabling earthquake smog to potentially last for months because it would be getting replenished in the air as it is settling.

The problem with the scientific disputes to the heartland model is that our science is incredibly flawed. The widely accepted genetic aging model is off by degrees of magnitude (we know common ancestry is 6000 years ago, not 65,000 or earlier), carbon dating makes poor assumptions on the consistency of C14 generation, and global warming theory suggests the past is consistently cooler than the present, when genuine evidence shows the earth was hotter in the medieval warm period, and even hotter a millennium previous to that. The medieval warm period was warm enough to allow grapes to be grown in Scotland. Imagine what it would have been like in the Book of Mormon times.

Destruction and voice from heaven took place in the first month on the 34th day (14th day and Passover for Jerusalem) The visit from Christ at the temple took place at the end of the 34th year (Tabernacles) this would explain why a large portion of the people were already at the temple

I believe the BofM happened from Guatemala, Mexico, USA, and some Canada

Took place about one year later

I personally believe the heartland makes sense Meso never did makes sense

Snow is mentioned in the Book of Mormon: 1 Nephi 11:8 8 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me: Look! And I looked and beheld a tree; and it was like unto the tree which my father had seen; and the beauty thereof was far beyond, yea, exceeding of all beauty; and the whiteness thereof did exceed the whiteness of the driven snow.

If we are to be completely honest, without doing mental gymnastics, both meso and heartland areas are too big. It was a much smaller area. Most likely on an isthmus in New England

By virtue of 3 Nephi 16 I’m certain that the Savior visited many many people throughout the world and that the Nephites were simply one, relatively “small” group of people.

At about 1:40:00 Murph is talking about the fact that there was more damage in the land Northward. How can that be if the New Madrid Seismic Zone is in the Land Southward? That is an easy one. About the time Hagoth (56 BC) was building his ships and people were migrating to the land northward to escape all the wars, there was no lumber/trees in the land of desolation (Michigan) so lumber was shipped in for building structures and they also built with cement (likely lathe and plaster or wattle and daub--NOT concrete--49 BC). There were more structures in the land northward so there was more damage from powerful earthquakes. People in the land southward were living in tents so there would be little damage if their tents fell over. Experts have compared earthquakes from California with NMSZ. Similar sized earthquakes spread farther in the NMSZ than California earthquakes. Also, look at the 1981 discovery of the 1,700-mile crack across America from Idaho to the southern Appalachians that intersects a NMSZ fault that extends up to the Great Lakes and the St. Lawrence Seaway.

I’m tired of the argument used by meso advocates that Columbus never set foot in North America. On the other hand I do not appreciate the heartlanders trying to point to John Cabot as the figure in Nephi’s vision, that was wrought upon by the power of God to cross the many waters 1 Nephi 13:12. John Cabot could only make that journey because of what Columbus did. The story of Christopher Columbus is nothing short of miraculous. I encourage everyone who has not undertaken a deep study of the life of Columbus to do so. He was prepared from his youth, and his life was spared time and time again, and his persistence in following the compelling prompting of the Spirit allowed him to unlock the mystery of the seas. Mind you. What he did is tantamount to you or I successfully making a trip to Mars. Columbus is the man in Nephi’s vision. He opened the way for others who did make it to the promised land (North America). One Cumorah! Let’s stay with the words of Joseph and Oliver.

The Jaredites reserved the lands south predominantly for hunting and gathering. The land of Desolation would have been the primary population center of the Jaredites. The destruction of the Jaredites would have been the destruction of the population centers bringing an end to the Jaredites as a single nation, not necessarily an end to its entire population.

As a converted believer in the Heartland Model of the Book of Mormon (BOM), I find myself encountering a curious phenomenon whenever I delve into the scriptures. Despite my conviction in the Heartland Model, my mind persistently envisions the Mesoamerican setting for the Nephites' travels. It's as though my subconscious defaults to that location, even though I actively strive to embrace the Heartland Model. Reflecting on this experience, I empathize with proponents of the Mesoamerican theory. If my mind, as a believer in the Heartland Model, instinctively gravitates towards Mesoamerica, it elucidates the challenge faced by those who adhere to the Mesoamerican perspective. It underscores the deeply ingrained nature of our preconceptions and the difficulty in shifting paradigms, even when presented with compelling evidence. Nevertheless, my commitment to the Heartland Model remains steadfast. I recognize the importance of continually challenging my own assumptions and biases, and I encourage others to do the same in their pursuit of truth and understanding. Let us approach the study of the Book of Mormon with open minds and hearts, seeking enlightenment and unity in our shared quest for spiritual insight.

At about 1:44:40 there is discussion about the fact that Grover is telling the Murph that the map showing the strongest shaking was located in the center of the NMSZ and farther away was less severe shaking and eventually no perceived shaking. However, you're looking at a reconstruction of the 1811-12 earthquakes based on newspaper and journal accounts of people who lived through the earthquakes spanning several months. Who knows how powerful the 34 AD quake actually was compared to today or 1811-1812? Many think the quake of 1811-1812 was an M7 or M8. Apparently, the Moment Magnitude scale has replaced the old Richter scale. What if it was an M12 or M15 or M20? If so, people 500 to 1000 miles away might have experienced an M7-M9. There was also discussion between Neville and Murph about WHEN Christ appeared in 3 Nephi. Elders James E. Talmadge and Joseph Fielding Smith disagreed on how long after the resurrection did Christ appear in America. One said it was a year and the other was soon after the Jerusalem resurrection and ministry (about 40 days). 3 Nephi 10:18 states, 18 And it came to pass that in the ending of the thirty and fourth year, behold, I will show unto you that the people of Nephi who were spared, and also those who had been called Lamanites, who had been spared, did have great favors shown unto them, and great blessings poured out upon their heads, insomuch that *****soon after the ascension of Christ into heaven he did truly manifest himself unto them--***** 3 Nephi 11:1 states, 1 And now it came to pass that there were a great multitude gathered together, of the people of Nephi, round about the temple which was in the land Bountiful; and they were marveling and wondering one with another, and were showing one to another the great and marvelous change which had taken place. This verse (combined with 3 Nephi 10:18) strongly suggests that the visit of Christ to America happened soon after the resurrection. Otherwise, the multitude gathered at the temple in the land of Bountiful would NOT be marveling and wondering showing one with another about "the great and marvelous change which had taken place." A year later would not make sense. 3 Nephi 8:11-13 states, "11 And there was a great and terrible destruction in the land southward. 12 But behold, there was a more great and terrible destruction in the land northward; for behold, the whole face of the land was changed, because of the tempest and the whirlwinds, and the thunderings and the lightnings, and the exceedingly great quaking of the whole earth; 13 And the highways were broken up, and the level roads were spoiled, and many smooth places became rough. 14 And many great and notable cities were sunk, and many were burned, and many were shaken till the buildings thereof had fallen to the earth, and the inhabitants thereof were slain, and the places were left desolate. 15 And there were some cities which remained; but the damage thereof was exceedingly great, and there were many in them who were slain. 16 And there were some who were carried away in the whirlwind; and whither they went no man knoweth, save they know that they were carried away. 17 And thus the face of the whole earth became deformed, because of the tempests, and the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the quaking of the earth. 18 And behold, the rocks were rent in twain; they were broken up upon the face of the whole earth, insomuch that they were found in broken fragments, and in seams and in cracks, upon all the face of the land. 19 And it came to pass that when the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the storm, and the tempest, and the quakings of the earth did cease-for behold, they did last for about the space of three hours; and it was said by some that the time was greater; nevertheless, all these great and terrible things were done in about the space of three hours-and then behold, there was darkness upon the face of the land. 20 And it came to pass that there was thick darkness upon all the face of the land, insomuch that the inhabitants thereof who had not fallen could feel the vapor of darkness; 21 And there could be no light, because of the darkness, neither candles, neither torches; neither could there be fire kindled with their fine and exceedingly dry wood, so that there could not be any light at all; 22 And there was not any light seen, neither fire, nor glimmer, neither the sun, nor the moon, nor the stars, for so great were the mists of darkness which were upon the face of the land. 23 And it came to pass that it did last for the space of three days that there was no light seen; and there was great mourning and howling and weeping among all the people continually; yea, great were the groanings of the people, because of the darkness and the great destruction which had come upon them." I believe they couldn't start a fire because of low oxygen levels from gases coming out of the earth. Normal oxygen levels are 21%. About 16% is necessary for combustion. About 19.5% is necessary to breathe. Did argon of carbon dioxide or some other gas dissipate or displace the oxygen low enough to stop combustion and still allow people to breathe?

I prefer the Delmarva theory

The years started in spring. The wars weren't in winter. We know this because 3 Nephi 8:5 places Christ's death in the FIRST month of the year, which we know from the Bible occurred in spring at Passover.

The Title of Liberty proves that not only did they have writing, but that at a basic level they also had literacy… the Title was carried with them everywhere they went for all the people to see, which implies that the general population could both read and write, if this is not true, then the entire exercise of creating it, and then carrying it with them everywhere they went was moot, and nonsensical Just an observation…

All these going to Cumorah... it's for a reason. Maybe that's why it has an empty cave. 1829... that would explain why it wasn't looted.

Can't find any documented evidence of the Nile river being called a sea, in the bible or else where.

Jonathon is really Jonathan Neville.

The Book of Mormon makes 0 hint of cold weather, let alone snow. Captain Moroni wearing snow shoes? Ah, no.

At 1:54:08, Neville incorrectly states that all of the Michigan artifacts were made of Slate or stone. Many were made of copper!

how are these distances any less crazy than the hemispheric model?

Where are all the roads that these armies traveled on. Could it be that it’s all just made up?🤔 We still have some of the roads that the Roman Empire traveled on.

I always understood that after all of the Nephites were killed off, Moroni, in an effort to avoid the Laminates, roamed the land northward for 40 years, walked up to New York, passing through Utah where he dedicated the temple sites St. George, Manti, etc (and more than likely dedicated the Salt Lake Valley and temple site) before making his way to New York where he buried the plates. Maybe he named that hill Cumorah because it is the name given to hills where records are kept. Why couldn't he name a second hill by the same name?

Actually the Adena did not start until 500 BC, it was not a confusion with the Hopewell. This is a well known and verified fact (Ancient North America, 2019, Fagan, pg 251). Also on Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adena_culture. That's a big problem, the Heartland doesn't have a Jaredite culture center with a proper chronology. While Jonathan loves to deflect any argument against his theories as "confirmation bias" , there are just certain problems with the model that have nothing to do with confirmation bias.

Not sure who this Podcaster is...but he clearly has not done any legitimate research into Book of Mormon Archeology...all Heartland research is based on NON Mormon scholarship. Whereas the so called meso theories are only supported by shoddy lds scholarship (embarrasingly) from BYU based on errant RLDS theories from 100+ years ago, trying to force the Book of Mormon onto this setting then that...

Don’t think the archeologists have found them yet then. So far just hunters and gatherers.

Heartland is to faithful models what Spaulding-Rigdon is to critical models.

I think the meso model makes more sense, but I like the heartlanders a lot better.

First

2:32:30. That burning in your bosom that you're feeling is simply cognitive dissonance rattling around your brain

You can't be serious about this BS. Im thinking logically that JS was not a true prophet. He fed us some mumbo-jumbo

For the life of me I can’t understand how this awful narrative and explanation of the Heartland theory is even still entertained. They use wide assumptions that are only understood when you put a square peg in a round hole. Using tidbits of historical utterances that we have recorded are a very bad reasons alone to surmise the geography of the Book of Mormon. These aren’t all first hand and with older history there are nuances and gaps. This narrative that “Joseph knew” is really problematic and creates the first problem of the Heartland theory since if he knew our leaders today say opposite. They have been spreading their deflections for years. Also, the geology, language, large systems of infrastructure to meet the requirements isn’t there in the Heartland. Bad science and the implication our current leaders are ignorant compared to the Heartland folks is the biggest issue. I was once a Heartland follower until you peal apart the narrative and see the bad apologetics used it is clear. Bad apologetics create more distrust and is more harmful to the Saints faith and to outsiders. Leaders in the past weren’t giving their revelatory opinion it is just their opinion. So maddening that Neville and Meldrum keep this up and actually are the ones that are creating the “contention” they always bemoan are coming from those who actually do respect our leaders and use good scholarship. Also, where did Columbus land? In the promise land and it wasn’t in the Heartland. But, facts don’t even matter to some Heartland folks.

Arguing about where a fictional book took place within the real world is an exercise in futility.

The Title of Liberty proves that not only did they have writing, but that at a basic level they also had literacy… the Title was carried with them everywhere they went for all the people to see, which implies that the general population could both read and write, if this is not true, then the entire exercise of creating it, and then carrying it with them everywhere they went was moot, and nonsensical Just an observation…