kzfaq.info/get/bejne/d96Ei9GQ3LWyYYE.html

That’s not an answer.

So do you think God enjoys the suffering of people in hell?

Herein lies the problem with the legal orientation of western christianity. Modern day evangelicals see "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess" as a threat instead of a promise.

@@Jordan-hz1wr that is true! Thank you for sharing the truth with us.

My thoughts exactly. Calvinism provides no real answers to their contadictive theology.

@@samjohnson9904 Reformed theology is proven by scripture,it is not a man made philosophy.I used to be mostly Arminian in my theology until I had both of my shoulders replaced and God gave me plenty of of time to pray and study and that's when He showed me the error of my belief.You really need to study it,Sam.

@@CBALLEN I really have studied it. I've found that it is a theology based on text without context.

@@samjohnson9904 Can you explain 1 Cor 2:14?

@@CBALLEN, in context, Paul is writing to Christians from the house of Chloe (the most carnal church in the NT) in regards to the advanced aspects of their spirituality. It's re-stated in 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 and mirrored in Hebrews 5:10-14. The passage is about natural and spiritual as opposed to lost and saved as the Calvinist theology teaches. Simply, Paul is telling these Christians that they are not ready for the advanced teachings because they are not spiritually mature enough to grasp them.

No.

Joey Lopez why

That's just how messed up your mind is... of course it is a few.

God chooses those that choose him. Curses or blessings. Your choice.

🤣

All things! Ephesians 1, Colossians 1:15-20

Hey...B.J. I,d be glad to help ya w/ all that....but it sounds like ya toooooo far gone...but that's not against the law....if you actually read & studied ( 2Tim 2:15) the material I put out there...& ya still don't get the dif ' btw. Free Will...& Robots...i,ll just thank ya for making my....point....try following The Apostle Paul...who commanded us to...." be followers of me as I also follow....Christ..." 1Cor 11:1 NOT Calvin...or any other....man...1Cor 2:1-16(V5) & here,s why....Gal 1:1-12(V6,9,)

My friend this man is a confused old man. Love God with all your might, trust that he loves you and will continue to work on you as long as you surrender to him. Admit you are a sinner whose sins need to be washed away. Know that all deserve hell because all have sinned, however god has called the whole world to know him and repent, yet many do not becuase they love there sin and are wilfully ignorant. Anyone can be born again as god draws every man to repentance,so repent and live pleasing to god and enjoy a relationship with him and you will be with him for all eternity. I cant mention everything as it would be too long but that's the jist

God is simply an evil being who wants all to burn in hell forever and ever. Its possible that "heaven" and salvation are just a trick. Theres 0 evidence god isnt evil.

Your actions are a result of the free will God gave you. A lot of people choose to deny that free will exists because, if it doesn’t, then that means all of our actions are seen from a puppet master viewpoint. This way, we can claim no responsibility over our actions as they were “predestined” and we have absolutely no control over them. This is false. I’m choosing out of my free will to type this message to you to help you understand why free will is a very real thing. You choose to sit up in your bed in the morning and make breakfast. You choose that you want eggs, and then you use your free will to say “nevermind I don’t want eggs, I want bacon”. You exercise your free will every second of your life. Many like to deny that free will exists because denying it then gives them an excuse to accuse God of being evil. How could God say he loves us, then make it so that we have 0 control over our actions, both right and wrong, and then damn us to eternal suffering because of actions we don’t have control over to begin with? Free will is very real my friend. Many people want to understand how free will, Gods sovereignty and predestination all work hand in hand. Their mistake is when they refuse to accept that they won’t understand it 100%. It’s unfathomable to our human minds to understand entirely.

​@@hezikiawilliams392 The problem with your point of you is God's omniscience, specially with the first human sin. God knew beforehead everything Adam was going to do even before he created him. All humanity is cursed because of that first sin. I'm a Belieber myself but I can't deny this is hard to understand.. and your argument doesn't give a answer to it.

Same here…

If you look at the very first of I and II Peter; it says that they are both addressed to God's Elect. So when 2 Peter 3:8-9 says that God is not willing that ALL should come to repentance.... it means ALL the ELECT.....not ALL of mankind. And ALL the Elect will get saved because Jesus saves ALL the sheep; not one more and not one less.

Amen bro... Whosoever! ... Imagine a loving God who just puts people in hell... How could anybody believe this

@@martinleon3145 But John 3:1-15 tells you what it takes for somebody to become a WHOSEVER! It takes God regenerating them through the Holy Spirit....God only regenerates the ELECT.....thats why Jesus told His disciples "You did not choose Me but I chose You!" Salvation worked in the OT the same way. God chose Israel out of all the nations on earth (Amos 3:2). God did not choose the Egyptians, the Babylonians, or the Assyrians. God chose only Israel! God does not choose to save everyone. That is not Biblical at all. God only saves ALL the Elect Sheep; not one more and not one less. Jesus says "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me; and I will raise them up on the last day!"

@@timclark2925 that would make God unjust. The true God is not that kind of God. To choose some souls for eternal life and throw all the others in eternal hell. That is unfair and unjust. To make people suffer eternally so he can manifest his power and give himself glory, that's tyrannical, narcissistic and unjust. Just who do you think God is?

@@dave7825 Your response is IDENTICAL to the one Paul writes in the Bible.....Just read Romans 9:14-21 "14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f] 16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?"

And John Stott also realised that the Bible teaches death/ destruction and perishing, not burning forever in a place we call hell, that the Bible never once refers to in Hebrew or Greek. check out this video kzfaq.info/get/bejne/fNV-lbN_xMi3gqc.html

@@michaelnewzealand1888 Amen to that. Just as stated in John 3:16, we either perish or else we receive the gift of eternal life: ⚫ "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) We either come to repentance, or else we perish: ⚫ "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9) ⚫ "except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." (Jesus, in Luke 13:5) Examples of the wicked being destroyed, not "be"ing any more: ⚫ "For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be" (Psalms 37:10). ⚫ "When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever" (Psalms 92:7). ⚫ "The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity" (Proverbs 10:29). ⚫ "As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more: but the righteous is an everlasting foundation" (Proverbs 10:25). ⚫ "Knowest thou not this of old, since man was placed upon earth, That the triumphing of the wicked is short, and the joy of the hypocrite but for a moment? Though his excellency mount up to the heavens, and his head reach unto the clouds; Yet he shall perish for ever like his own dung: they which have seen him shall say, Where is he?" (Job 20:4-7). ⚫ "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch . . . ⚫ "And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts." (Malachi 4:1,3) kzfaq.info/get/bejne/bN9zZsZpsNfcgIk.html

@@TheBibleSays Hell is eternal.. unbelievers don't just cease away from existence. The Bible is every clear on that. ""Then He will say to those on His left, 'Leave Me, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels (demons);" - Mat 25:41 "And if anyone's name was not found written in the Book of Life, he was hurled into the lake of fire." - Rev 20:15 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake (resurrect), these to everlasting life, but some to disgrace and everlasting contempt (abhorrence)." - Dan 12:2 "If your hand causes you to stumble and sin, cut it off [that is, remove yourself from the source of temptation]! It is better for you to enter life crippled, than to have two hands and go into hell, into the unquenchable fire," - Mark 9:43 "save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy but with fear, loathing even the clothing spotted and polluted by their shameless immoral freedom." - Jud 1:23 "And the beast (Antichrist) was seized and overpowered, and with him the false prophet who, in his presence, had performed [amazing] signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were hurled alive into the lake of fire which blazes with brimstone." - Rev 19:20

@@michaelnewzealand1888 I'm sorry but annihilationism is unbiblical

@@joedyms What happens to the unsaved? The apostle Paul wrote: ⚫ "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life though Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:23) There is nothing in that verse about eternal life in some sort of fiery "hell." Unless you receive the gift of eternal life you will perish in what is called the "second death," after resurrection for judgment. After that second death, there is no more hope of life or resurrection. You perish. You're destroyed. You don't exist any more. It's the end of you. Here's a few Bible verses about this: ⚫ "For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be" (Psalms 37:10). ⚫ "When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever" (Psalms 92:7). ⚫ "The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity" (Proverbs 10:29). ⚫ "As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more: but the righteous is an everlasting foundation" (Proverbs 10:25). ⚫ "Knowest thou not this of old, since man was placed upon earth, That the triumphing of the wicked is short, and the joy of the hypocrite but for a moment? Though his excellency mount up to the heavens, and his head reach unto the clouds; Yet he shall perish for ever like his own dung: they which have seen him shall say, Where is he?" (Job 20:4-7). ⚫ "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch . . . ⚫ "And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts." (Malachi 4:1,3) John 3:16 says the same: we either receive the gift of eternal life, or we perish: ⚫ "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) So where does the fiery eternal "hell" idea come from? King James' translators added it to the Bible by using their word "hell" 23 times in the New Testament . . . in place of three different Greek words. Each of those three words has a different meaning . . . and none of those three refers to a place of fiery, perpetual torment. The three Greek words are: ▬ άδης (“hades” in English); appears as "hell" ten times and as "grave" once in the KJV New Testament; refers to the place of the dead, the grave, similar to the Hebrew word "she'ol" in the Old Testament ▬ γέεννα (“geenna” or “gehenna” in English); Appears as "hell" 12 times in the KJV New Testament; refers to the valley used as a dump outside Jerusalem in Jesus' time. Constant fire and maggots there permanently destroyed whatever was thrown in. ▬ ταρταρωσας a verb, an inflection or variant of ταρταρόω; (“tartaroo" in English); used only once: to describe fallen angels being put into a figurative pit or prison, to be held in restraint. You don't have to take my word for this. Look it up with online Bible study tools such as blueletterbible.org. Translators (especially King James Version, 1611) made a real mess when they used the word "hell" in place of these three Greek words. They had inherited their hell concept, by tradition, from the Catholic church. By using "hell" they were twisting the meanings of the Greek words to conform to their concept of a place of perpetual, fiery torment. Over time translators have recognized this error and footnoted their versions, noting the original Greek words, or even using the original Greek words - and not using the word "hell." Young's Literal Translation (YLT), for example, never uses the word "hell." Here's an example of Jesus speaking of "hell fire": ⚫ "And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:" (Mark 9:47) "Hell" in that verse is from that Greek word γεέννῃ or "gehenna," a reference to that dump outside Jerusalem. The trash and garbage was thrown there to be destroyed by the constant fire - "hell fire" - and worms - maggots - in the dump. *Jesus likened the destruction of the wicked to being cast into the dump for permanent, final destruction. They would be figuratively thrown into the dump for destruction.* The "lake of fire" in Revelation pictures the same, final destruction: ⚫ "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8) Here's another verse where "hell" is from the Greek word γεέννῃ or "gehenna": ⚫ "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28) So, when Jesus said the soul can be destroyed in hell, what did He mean? First, "destroy" is from the Greek word ἀπόλλυμι ("apollymi") which means "to destroy fully" (from _Strong's Defintions_ ). And "hell" in that verse is from the Greek word γέεννα ("geenna" or "gehenna") which was the dump outside Jerusalem, where fire and maggots destroyed all the trash and bodies that were thrown in. *Jesus likened the fate of the unsaved* to being "thrown into the dump," into "hell [gehenna] fire" for destruction. In Matthew 25:46 Jesus describes the fate of the unsaved: ⚫ "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." When a criminal is executed, the punishment is not "everlasting" in the sense of being ongoing, perpetual punishing. No, the punishment is "everlasting" in the sense that it is permanent, complete and final and irrevocable. It will be the same for the unsaved; they will destroyed and that will be the end of them. Their punishment is finished and stands forever; it is not perpetual, ongoing punishing. The words "permanent" and "final" never appear in the KJV; "everlasting" is often used instead. It's a mistake to assume "everlasting" means an ongoing, perpetual process. It can refer to a permanent, finished and irreversible condition. The "lake of fire" in Revelation is like the gehenna "dump" fire. It pictures final, irrevocable destruction. Those persons who are "cast into the lake of fire" are destroyed. They are destroyed, through death; specifically the second death, after judgment. They have no further hope of life or resurrection. They will never "be" again: ⚫ "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8) Even death and the grave (hades) will be destroyed by being figuratively "cast in the lake of fire": ⚫ "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:14,15) After the final judgment and the destruction of the wicked, death is effectively destroyed-because everyone left will have received eternal life. And the grave (hades) is destroyed, because no one will be left in the grave awaiting resurrection for judgment. Paul wrote: ⚫ "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (1 Corinthians 15:26) Death will be destroyed . . . after the wicked have been destroyed through death and the rest have received eternal life.

The answer begins at 3:34 God is *MOST GLORIFIED* by displaying His full range of perfection, including displaying His *Wrath* attribute for His *Elect* audience, to show them just how much *luck,* I mean *grace* they were given for not being predestined to be burned forever, like the other billions that were. God could've predestined them as well, but He didn't, *THAT* action of God makes His grace shine more brightly, in the eyes of Calvinist theologians.

@@primeobjective5469 Most Calvinists say that man is unable to choose to serve God, which is why God predestined some to choose him and some to be sent to hell...essentially. I partially agree; on our own, we're not capable but with God, all things are possible. He gave us all the ability to choose Him, and as we know, all don't choose him. This is what makes worship possible. It's interesting that God's sovreignty is spoken about so much but we don't give God credit for His creation. He gave us the ability to choose or reject Him. Romans 1:20 - For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator-who is forever praised. Amen.

JWJ BROS the Bible mentions in the grave that no one that goes their is honoring the father, neither good or bad because they are unconscious beings at that point until Christ resurrects them and I believe that not the he’ll doctrine

God is Glorified when he is destroying evil and Being praised by his followers for having mercy on their souls.

The traditional view of hell can't answer the question. God is glorified when death and sin are no more (1 Corinthians 15 and Revelation 21).

God can do whatever he chooses. Who are you to question God? Because you can't understand his ways makes him wrong?

Free will. Willingly choosing God. Looking at the bible as a book end. In the beginning the heavens and earth were created, the end they are restored to how it started.

Wow how deep, rich and wise he is to predestine many of his kids to Hell without mutual agreement. Doesnt that sound like premeditated murder?

Romans 11:32 ;)

The thing is this: God doesn't owe you anything, he can do whatever he wants with you just like he can with me. He can also predestine you to hell just as he can predestine you to salvation. Why should God adapt to your "humanism"? Paul already said : Listen carefully ! Romans 9:11-25: "11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of 'Elohim according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Ya`akov have I loved, but Esav have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with 'Elohim? 'Elohim forbid. 15 For he saith to Mosheh, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of 'Elohim that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Havahn for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against 'Elohim? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if 'Elohim, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Havahn us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the goyim? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved." Couldn't it be said more clearly? Does not God have the power to show mercy when he wants to ? And again, is it true that everyone is lost because of his own fault? Although it is God who directs! Proverbs 16:4: "4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Proverbs 16:9: "9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps." IMPORTANT: without himself being the author of evil. Especially if everyone were in hell, it would be deserved because after all, we are saved by grace ? Or are we ? So even if only one stepped it would still be heartfelt on his part! Of course, because the signs of God's sovereignty and human will in the Holy Scriptures, i.e. in the Bible, will always remain a mystery. Reply to the video :

Yeah He doesn't enjoy sending people to hell! He wants everyone to be saved! What's wrong with these people?

@JJ it's not that, but would God dance over His enemies burning in flames and suffering the ultimate punishment?

@JJ yeah but piper isn't God. God doesn't hate everyone

Thank you @ jordan

@@katym.8250 That doesn't make any sense

Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Lamentations 3:31-33...

The answer straight from the Master, Lord of Lords, King of Kings!

+brivera6462 But they didn't willingly reciprocate that same love. They broke the only rule He gave them. In fact, since they were made completely good, they didn't do anything wrong, and they couldn't. Breaking that one rule was the only thing they could do that was wrong. AND THEY DID IT! AND SHORTLY AFTER THEY WERE MADE. The only means to help them was for God Himself to become man and take the punishment Himself.

+deezynar with all due respect, you don't make yourself too clear with whatever point you want to make. I assume you are referring to Adam and Eve in the garden, correct? Then you said they couldn't do anything wrong but then did something wrong (contradiction). I'm sorry but I am completely lost with your response.

brivera6462 They were not normal people. They were not like you and me. God made them without sin, THEY WERE UNABLE TO SIN, EXCEPT for that ONE THING. It is not complicated. They had only one thing to avoid and they were on it like white on rice in a nanosecond.

Where are you getting your information from because that is clearly not scriptural. Adam and Eve were just as human as you and I. Also, what you stated about not being able to sin BUT THEY SINNED by disobeying God is a clear self-contradiction on your part. You say that had one thing to avoid-- meaning they had a choice. If you have read the Bible you will see that it is our Free Will to choose that will determine our eternal destiny. Adam had just as much of a choice to obey or disobey God's command as we do to choose to accept or reject Jesus' gift of salvation. Once again, I do not know where you are getting your information from but please check the validity of your sources or your ability to interpret. I do not say that to offend but more as a constructive response.

brivera6462 You are in serious error if you believe that pre-fall Adam was just like you and I. What I have said previously is very simple, and right from the bible. "God saw all that He made, and it was very good." Man was made "very good." That means Adam and Eve couldn't sin. Everything they wanted to do was in line with God's will. God made one test for them that they could potentially do that would be against His will, eat the fruit that will give them something they lacked. They already had goodness, it was evil that they knew nothing about. Adam was not like us until after he rebelled. Adam had no free will to sin before he ate the fruit, except in that one, very specific action. After Adam's rebellion, mankind is spiritually dead. In fact, spiritual death is passed from father to child. It means that no man will choose God, because all are conceived with a hate for God. Mary was made to be pregnant by God, because spiritual death comes through men. The virgin birth is based on this. Jesus was like Adam was before the fall. Because Jesus stayed obedient, and took the punishment meant for those who God predestined, they will have spiritual life given to them for the first time in their lives.

Then whats the point of christ death and resurrection?? God can simply forgive

Jerome Savary nope god is a just judge and there has to be atonement for sin .

@@broj5495 Nah....Noah and his fam were 'saved' and the rest of the world 'perished' without any atonement for sin. If the Arc is a type for Christ...how come there was no human sacrifice then as an atonement? Ifso facto....Noah and fam were saved without atonement.

@@vickicaravella6087 They used animals as an attoment for sin before jesus.

@@broj5495 Hi matie...thanks 4 your reply saying: "They used animals as an atonement for sin before Jesus: Quoting from the OT: "For I desire a steadfast love, and NOT sacrifice. The knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings (Hosea 6:6) Many places in Rabbinic literature emphasise that performing charitable deeds, praying, and studying Torah are more meritorious than animal sacrifice. AND that the former can replace animal sacrifice when the Temple is not active. Jews have always believed in ritual atonement through deeds of loving kindness. Thanks for being civil Broj. Say...do you ring Matt Dillahunty on the Atheist Experience as Brojo?

Well that isn’t what John Piper believes from what I can see, I may be wrong, but he doesn’t believe in free will which is what you need to make a free decision. You must believe in both free will and predestination to correctly understand the bible, it teaches both as if they are somehow in unison.

My thoughts exactly

Well I guess you need to hope your right.. Are you one of the elect? How do you know? I mean how do you really know, in an assurance sense? How do you identify others who aren't? How do you truly know your not one of those 'others' who aren't.. and thar your deceived and on route for he'll?

Or is he saying, it is not possible without God? No one gets hired as an employee unless the employer draws applicants with "help wanted" adds. Does that mean you don't get to have an interview? It is still ALL GOD. I believe they are both understandable P O V's. I have concluded that reformed rejects freewill because we just can't fully understand it. No one can, no matter their theology. I have come to see it like this. Calvinist perspective will be correct AFTER the close of probation or when eternity begins. Freewill is right now. Calvinism will have it more correct in eternity. Either way, freewill is plainly inferred in scripture, yet is a mystery whether we accept it or not. I would just fear that by accepting Calvinism, and I was wrong, I would be guilty of assuming my will for God's, therefore imagining myself as God, in a sense. This notion can work the other way as well. One is hopefully being zealous for God's will no matter the theological perspective.

jamie Russell Jamie, many thanks for your reply. If pressed, I would lean toward a theology that involves libertarian free will, as I see this as a necessary characteristic of perfect love; but I happily admit that it’s shaped by my own philosophical intuitions as much as a literal view of scripture. I agree that concepts like ‘love’ and ‘free will’ have abstract and existential aspects that elude a purely intellectual exegesis of the written word. Ultimately, I believe that all answers are embodied in the nature and character of God, as reflected in the person of Jesus (“anyone who has seen me has seen the Father”). Meanwhile, I see through a glass darkly, and I believe that the best I can do is approach God with the disposition and expectations of a little child (“Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.” Mark 10:15).

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself John 12:32.

@@SamTipton Yes,He will draw not only JEWS,but Gentiles too,but this doesn't mean every individual Jew and Gentile.Jesus died for many of ALL MEN.Rev 5; 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; Jesus died for and actually redeemed US(God's elect) to God by thy blood OUT OF EVERY KINDRED,TONGUE,PEOPLE,and NATION.Jesus didn't die for everyone in every nation.Jesus knew exactly who He was dying to forgive,He knew each name and He actually purchased these individuals with His blood,their salvation was finished at the cross and 100% of the people Jesus died for will be with Him in Heaven,none will be lost to Hell.This is why salvation is 100% the Lord's doing and 0% man's.No one seeks God,none are good,no not even one and it's for this reason that God must give us a new heart first and God then grants repentance and belief.These are things no natural man cares about or wants.So man's free will can do nothing but send him to Hell,never Heaven.

​@@CBALLEN I agree with your interpretation of "all men" But i have to respond to the other thing. God calls us to be Holy as he is Holy. We can abstain from sin, it is our duty as soliders of Christ to struggle against sin in the spiritual battle of this life. We're to put on the whole armor of God and stand. We're to die to the sin. Christians are told to mortify the deads of the flesh. Put to death our members on the earth, think on eternal things. The spirit aids greatly, but it does not force us into obedience. Sin is deceitful and Satan knows how to trick men. Don't believe the lie that we can't help it. We are to be transformed, we are to aid to our faith virtue and to virtue knowledge and to knowledge self control, etc. That psalm is clearly hyperbole and before the cross. God will's for us is sanctification (1 Thessalonians 4:3). We cannot be sinless (1 John 1:8). God gives grace to the humble (James 4:6). God became sin that we might become the righteousness of God (2 Corinthians 5:21). Christ has made it possible for man to be perfect and righteous. Those who walk according to the spirit are sons of God. Romans 8:13-14 I think. Romans 12:2 -- This is a command. We play a role in it otherwise its not a sacrifice or a spiritual service. WE must struggle against sin (Hebrews 12:4) Read Christ's message to the church at Sardis in Revelation 3. He says their works aren't perfect yet and they should hold fast and repent. That seems to contradict your statement about 0% man. We must believe, confess, repent, be baptized, and hold fast. We must turn to God and he will turn to us. Your teaching has the smell of some weak preaching, a by product of people with itching ears.

Romans 1-3 makes it clear that mankind rejects what is made known by God to them. Don't let Calvinists use Romans 9-11 as their proof text for election. Romans 9-11 is talking about Israel, not individuals chosen for salvation or damnation. Piper is teaching lies, as does John MacArthur and all of their ilk. The hate the true gospel that is for all men because it robs them of their own glory.

***** Wow, bro. It's a pretty hard statement, but I think you hit the nail on the head with Calvinists, at least the extreme ones who believe in literal double predestination (it's my understanding that some believe God elected some but simply "passed over" the others rather than actually literally predestining them to death). Far as I'm concerned, with guys like Robert Morey, John MacAurthur and so many others, they are hindering people from hearing the Gospel rather than spreading it forth to a needful world. It's almost like they're saying, "hah hah, I'm special, and you're not." (Although I admit there are a few who seem to at least be humble enough to say they think they deserve death, too; they were just blessed to be chosen.) And if you object, they just say "who are you to question God?" (Although we question their view of God, not God Himself, of course.) And only so because, hey, as long as they're one of the elect, they're safe, right? Not like they need to worry about anyone else. Calvinism just feels like an obvious form of pride to me. And if we believers who believe in free will to choose the Gospel (or believe in God's sovereignty according to Universalism) are heretics like I've heard some - not all - Calvinists accuse, well, hey, what can we do it about it, right? According to their view of the Gospel, God WANTED us to believe in something heretical so we'd never come to Him, because apparently making us stay in sin and unbelief glorifies Him. The Gospel of Jesus Christ according to Calvinism: Good News for a precious few, REALLY REALLY bad news for everyone else.

Agreed, the question isn't answered. It's frustrating as the answers to this question get danced around like it did. I get putting borders around a question heavy like this, but the question wasn't addressed.

Because he didn't predestine people to hell.

@@savedbyjesusblood So calvinists are like catholics?

The Bible teaches free will and predestination, this is true, however, it does not teach predestination to salvation or damnation. It teaches predestination for those "in him" to be conformed to the image of his son.

my sister has the power to literally control people's mind and god is not answering my prayers to stop it. i fucking wonder why.

God loved his enemies in that he died for them.

In people's eyes, the God is the enemy, they treat him like that cause they are blinded. But God loves all and all he wants is to be acknowledged as their Lord that gave them life and a chance to be saved through Jesus and by his grace. God could sweep everything away but he has patience with us sinners. He's showing us great mercy. It's just incredible when I think about it as I'm writing this.

If I were to accept arminianism while maintaining a proper view of my sin -for the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), idk how I wouldn't be crushed by the weight of that. If one sin deserves death and we all sin many many many times daily, how can people who think one can lose their salvation not think they've lost their salvation or lose it all the time? If one believes one can lose their salvation then they must believe hebrews 6:4-6 says that if you lose your salvation "it is impossible to restore them again to repentance". That would mean if you lose it you could never get it back. Thank God that's not what Hebrews 6 is about since being "enlightened" nowhere in the bible actually means saved, and IF saved then you will not lose your salvation. John 10:27-30 verse 28 "I give them ETERNAL LIFE, and THEY WILL NEVER EVER EVER EVER PERISH, and no one will snatch them out of My hand." Emphasis my own of course to try to really get the message of that clear. And verse 29 brings it home. Anyway, if we are able to lose our salvation, which clearly the scriptures do not teach that, then every single one of us would my friend. None of us would ever have a chance. Jesus didn't die for some of our (the elect, Romans 9) sins. He died for all of them knowing what all we would do. We all break the two greatest commandments every single day man. We don't love God the way we should every single moment every single day and we don't love our neighbors as ourself as we should every single moment every single day. If there's anything we would lose our salvation over, surely it would be from breaking the 2 greatest commandments. Thank God for the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. His promises that what He started, He WILL bring it to completion (Philippians 1:6). Without that doctrine, how can any of the other doctrines that go along with salvation be enjoyed if The Lord will not absolutely keep those whom He has saved? What does justification and being made righteous and all the rest matter if we are able to lose it? Understand my friend, salvation starts with The Lord. Repentance is a gift from God. Salvation is maintained by The Lord through the power of His Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirits ministry of sanctification, and ultimately God is the one who brings us to glory. Beginning, middle and end... ALL God. Turn from the heresies of arminianism brother. Although Arminians will deny it, that false doctrine is a very self-righteous doctrine. There's a mindset that comes with it that their sins aren't nearly as big and serious as they are (since I've never met an Arminian who would say they've lost their salvation over the sins they committed just in the first few hours of being awake that day) while not viewing as big and as serious Christ's finished work on the cross.

@@Res187Evil rofl. Wow. Apostasy is a thing. The Bible talks about it. Nowhere in the Bible does it say you "lose" your salvation if you sin. Walking away from God or losing your faith is NOT a single sin you committed ("ops, I took two samples at Costco..."). You want to claim that the entire world of believers for 6,500 years where all heretics until John Calvin saved us with his gospel that he wrote from magical invisible tablets that he read with his magical invisible glasses? Seriously, that makes no sense. Judaism doesn't believe in anything even close to Calvinism and the world didn't even know about Calvinism until the 1500s. I think you've been blinded brother.

@@huntsman528 Reformed Christians believe it's the original Apostles doctrine, and the only one truly taught by scripture. It's not a new concept, just one that was lost for a time while the Catholic Church expanded.

@@ChristopherChavez Even Calvin says Augustine is the only early church father to talk about calvinistic beliefs. And he didn't preach that until the end of his life. It also appears to have come from gnostic and Manichean religions, which is what Augustine believed prior to converting to Christianity.

@@huntsman528 Who said anything at all about Calvin? Everything I wrote on I backed up with scripture & not the words of a man. Although I am reformed in my theology, I do not consider myself Calvinist. Argue against the actual scriptures I used rather than using a strawman fallacy to take attention off the real issue so we can have legitimate, and hopefully beneficial, discourse. I agree apostasy is real. It's clearly in the scriptures, but apostasy only shows the person was never saved to begin with. True born-again Christians saved by the power of the Holy Spirit can not undue what God has done. Unless you want to say mans choices are higher & stronger than Gods...?

Someone who didn't stop reading in Romans 9. God bless you.

Can doesn't mean will.

Why create anyone if his glory was already perfect?

Because He loves them. He does love the world. However the way He loves the elect is like the way a husband has a love for his bride. Its a love that sets her apart. Its a love that distinguishes her. No other woman could ever have the same effect on him. because this groom is not an adulterer so there is no openness in the marriage and his devotion to His bride is traced back before the creation of the world. He is all knowing (omniscient) and is beyond time space and matter. beyond time meaning In the beginning God was already there. He created the heavens (space). and He's beyond everything including the foundation of the world. My question for anyone having trouble understanding God's predetermination of everything (not just people) is what is his purpose for evil?

Stephen King "he loves the world" destroys it in a flood... proceeds to set it all on fire for a lack of faith in the unknown.......... 😢

don't believe it man. we have free will which god will not violate. we choose our destiny. Jesus Christ died for all mankind not just the elect and the bible says he became our sin, he took the punishment for EVERY man's sins. its literally up to us if we wanna be with him or not

daniel doyle he violates our "free will" when we die

Imagine that you were a king whose citizens killed and attacked your only child. The king would be fully just in punishing the criminals, but in his great mercy he decided to save some of them. Those who he saved would be evermore grateful since their king had mercy.

God does love his enemies. He showed his love in this, that while we were still sinners, he died for us. Anyone who goes to hell WILLINGLY chooses to rebel and not accept him.

@@jvigel2101 You're confusing popular evangelicalism (which also paints a horrible picture of God, but that's another discussion) with traditional Calvinism - which is what the speaker in this video promotes and which I am responding to. In traditional Calvinism, God does not love his enemies. He hates them the way he hated Esau and all the others He predestined to eternal hell.

Whoever said unbelievers are the children of God? Indeed they are not. John 8 is clear that those who are God's children will hear His voice and believe. Those who are not His children are children of the devil and simply will not follow.

@@wildbill6536 Ah, so God doesn't kill his own children for his glory - just your children. Of course, that makes everything fine. Also, who decided who his children are? HE did!! Whatever you call them, they are humans who have the potential to experience both love or torment. Why does it make a difference what title God decides to put on those HE CHOSE to save and those HE CHOSE to butcher in hell? God DECIDED to love some and torment others. Not because some were his children and some were not. It was God who decided who would burn in hell and God who decided that they would not be his children. Please stop defending your filthy Satan-god who hates most of the people you love - maybe even you, you can't be sure yet.

Book, chapter, verse, please.

@@justinbirkelo6806 2nd Peter 3:9

he is just because He has extended his grace and eternal life to ALL humans, but we all have free will as humans to choose God, but not all will choose Him.....

Because all have sinned and God can choose whomever he wants to have mercy on.

The belief is not harmful, hating people is harmful; the later is not presented here.

The belief causes hatred and is the root of harm.

Frej von Fräähsen If it causes hatred for anything, it's the sin in our own lives. God hates sin, therefore we (Christians) hate sin; God loves people, so we love people... Christians hate the sin, not the sinner. I'm sorry if you feel it's the other way around. Please look into reading the Gospel, it teaches some amazing things and gives an understanding of what real love is better than any other book you or I can ever read. Luke 6:32-36, "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful." Also, read 1 John 4:7-21, keep in mind John is talking directly to people that already claim to follow Christendom, so make sure to put it in cultural perspective; it's importance to understand the audience to which he is writing. Hopefully these few verse will give you a small glimpse at what Christianity is about. I would again encourage you to read at least the first 4 parts of the New Testament, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John... then see if you still feel that the Christian belief system is focused on building hatred.

You read a book and claim ownership of, and knowing the thoughts of, a supreme being. I don't acknowledge the authority of the Bible or christians or your so called "god". I am infinitely grateful that I was raised in a rational and secular country that doesn't use god as a legitimizing force for owning guns or killing gays/ blacks/ arabs. Your faith has advocated owning of slaves and violence against others. I will never ever see your lifestyle as a force for good in the world.

Frej von Fräähsen That's all fine and good, the great thing is we are able, each of us, to make that choice for ourselves. The problem is, that we are force fed other things that we "must believe" in order to be considered rational human beings. That in itself, is that opposite of rationality, it's basically thought slavery. People should be allowed to come to their own conclusions based on the evidence they analyze, not what someone tells them to believe. I'm not sure which country you are talking about when you talk about one that legitimizes using force for owning guns, killing gays, blacks, arabs... I think the few theocracies out there are in eastern Asia; so I'm not well versed on them. If you believe Christianity has advocated owning slaves; I would say you have misread or misunderstood many important parts of the Bible. The slavery of the OT and even that which is eluded to in the NT was not the same as slavery in the pre-American Civil War era. I'd encourage you to do research on that believe making vague and less than accurate comments about it. Lastly, read Philemon in the NT. It's a short book of the Bible, specifically verses 15-16. It most definitely does not advocating slavery. I encourage you to read the entire book and speak with a pastor or other Christians on the subject. These conversations are received better in person, rather than this informal youtube messaging.

🤣🤣🤣

The conclusion is simple- God. Is. Evil.

“and God said to me that that is what He did”. What do you think this means? I don’t understand what exactly you meant here. Do you mean God told you that no one will actually go to hell?

@@mostawesomeflyer6164 no I believe if you don’t accept Jesus or you take the mark of the beast then you do go to hell. What I think He meant was that Jesus gave us the way out but we have to choose to take it.

@@joshlamb9443 aah I see, thanks for elaborating!

@@mostawesomeflyer6164 you’re welcome, be blessed

Praise God!!! He sent His Son Jesus Christ to die on the Cross and bare the sins of us ALL. He suffered so we would not have to. However many people choose not to believe or accept this because God also gave us ALL a free will to choose and accept His sacrifice and free gift. Thank you Jesus!!! May God continue to be with you Josh as u keep your eyes on Him

But the problem is god doesnt give the option to be saved to every person, only those that he wants. God doesnt love everyone, only those elect

​@@JMRabil675If you want to be saved, you can be. Not everyone wants to be saved and live for God.

God's punishment is not too severe. Death and destruction and perishing are totally biblical and appropriate. The twisted sick Eternal torment that is wrongly ascribed to God is not only too severe it's terrible. Do born again Christians believe in torture? Did medieval Catholics and extreme Muslims? Yes, and their theology complements their actions. Let's get rid of this lie forever. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/fNV-lbN_xMi3gqc.html

No. We have not forgotten. Perhaps Sproul has forgotten about the mercy of God and His desire that none shall perish. Why is it that so many Christians think that God is filled with more rage than love? God is love. God is life. God is light. In my opinion, to think that the Holy God that loves us all beyond our capacity to understand and has instructed us to love our enemies and do good to those who hate us would torture anyone for eternity is an insult to the character of God.

Amen, you are absolutely 100% Biblically correct! WHOSOEVER WILL, means exactly what it says. Who are the elect? Whosoever will!

Even in the story of Cain & Abel, God told Cain that if he CHOSE to do what is right, he would be accepted. And in the story of Esau & Jacob, Esau had the birth right until he CHOSE to barter it away to Jacob for a bowl of soup. In both cases, Cain & Esau had free will to choose. And they CHOSE to disobey & disregard God. Maybe they were genetically predisposed to SIN more than Abel & Jacob. Maybe God blessed their DNA to be predisposed for RIGHTEOUSNESS. Just as Joseph was. And so he was hated by his brothers. His robe was a metaphor for DNA. Both are woven. Bc who actually wants to murder their brother for a garment or even shoes. And maybe God blesses their DNA from the start bc He knows they will ultimately walk with Him? Bc God knows the beginning from the ending. In Joseph's case, his brothers were also blessed but Joseph was especially blessed & favored by God. When God blesses somebody, He blesses their DNA

@@wakeywakey8603 God’s sovereignty and Man’s responsibility are two different sides of the same coin. The issue with choice is- who is sovereign, man or God? It’s hard to see Esau had a full choice in light of Romans‬ ‭9:11-21‬ “for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?” Just worth looking at Ephesians 1:4-5 “just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,” - we see that God’s choice matters more than man’s choice.

True...whoever believes goes to heaven....God made every human with free will. He knows who will choose Him. ..just like He knew Eve would eat the apple..and Lucifer would fall. God knew all of this. Its His design for His purpose which is ultimately good. We dont need to understand it but pray for His mercy.

@@alexdshepherd God's sovereignty has zero to do with man's responsibility or free will. My choice to repent or not does NOT take away from God's omniscience or omnipotence

That’s the big debate. Did God predestine is to make these free will choices or are they actually free will choices and God has to work through the Choices of men. It’s a very difficult subject to get into because it’s hard to say what God did and does

Why would God allow someone to be born if He knew ahead of time that the person would end up in hell? It would more merciful for the person not to be born.

That’s exactly what Jesus said about Judas, but Judas was still used to bring glory to God. The whole point is that God can do as he pleases with his created beings. He doesn’t send someone to hell. They choose to go to hell, but God is so powerful that he is able to bring himself glory through a sinner who has rejected him. Read Romans and explains this perfectly.

Say it again

God knew when he created us that we would have 2 paths to choose from so he made us in hopes we would choose him …. Some people don’t choose him

So true!

Wrong context and can not be used as an example. Plus the same can be used in reverse.

John Mackey III Wrong context? Why? Can not be used an example? I just did! Can be used in reverse? If it can be used in reverse, then phrase it in reverse so we can see what you mean.

Analogies where one is a father and then comparing that to the relationship between man and God is invalid. You do not stand above your sons the same as God stands above creation. If you don't save both you are a bad father you are a bad father for using them as such a poorly executed analogy. How about you use playdoh as an analogy. I doubt you will see what i mean. So in reverse. It glorifies God when He punishes those who freely choose to be His enemy. God having not guaranteed their salvation gets glory in their condemnation. 

John Mackey III You have used the words "freely choose" in your above rebuttal. If God has "chosen" some for heaven and others for hell, as you teach, how could those he did not choose be responsible and deserve such a terrible fate? Sorry, but again, I believe the scriptures clearly teach that God LOVES ALL PEOPLE and his Holy Spirit speaks to ALL people concerning the need for the Savior, Jesus Christ (We are talking about those who have heard the Gospel of Jesus). It is man's "choice" to follow God's Spirit to the cross or he can reject from following Christ and refuse God's wooing at his own peril. There are NO theological gymnastics required in this position.

The thing is this: God doesn't owe you anything, he can do whatever he wants with you just like he can with me. He can also predestine you to hell just as he can predestine you to salvation. Why should God adapt to your "humanism"? Paul already said : Listen carefully ! Romans 9:11-25: "11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of 'Elohim according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Ya`akov have I loved, but Esav have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with 'Elohim? 'Elohim forbid. 15 For he saith to Mosheh, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of 'Elohim that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Havahn for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against 'Elohim? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if 'Elohim, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Havahn us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the goyim? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved." Couldn't it be said more clearly? Does not God have the power to show mercy when he wants to ? And again, is it true that everyone is lost because of his own fault? Although it is God who directs! Proverbs 16:4: "4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Proverbs 16:9: "9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps." IMPORTANT: without himself being the author of evil. Especially if everyone were in hell, it would be deserved because after all, we are saved by grace ? Or are we ? So even if only one stepped it would still be heartfelt on his part! Of course, because the signs of God's sovereignty and human will in the Holy Scriptures, i.e. in the Bible, will always remain a mystery. Reply to the video :

@@FollowerOfTheLight2782 Calvinists are wrong but so are Traditionists. We agree no one is saved by choice, decision, the will of man, or acceptance. God saves us by his choice, by His grace, and through His Faithfulness. In 2 Peter 3 we are told regarding the Judgement coming upon Israel who rejected Jesus and the Prophets... 8 Dear friends, don't forget that for the Lord one day is the same as 1,000 years, and 1,000 years is the same as one day. 9 The Lord isn't slow about keeping his promises, as some people think he is. In fact, God is patient, because he wants everyone to turn from sin and no one to be lost. 1 Timothy 2:1 First of all, I ask you to pray for everyone. Ask God to help and bless them all and tell God how thankful you are for each of them. 2Pray for kings and others in power, so we may live quiet and peaceful lives as we worship and honor God. 3 This kind of prayer is good, and it pleases God our Savior. 4 God wants everyone to be saved and to know the whole truth, which is,... Are those verses True or not? The scripture you provided says God saves us and God can condemn who he wants but he doesn't condemn anyone who doesn't first deny or reject him. Once they rejected him, God kept them from hearing the word. I was caught up in Calvinism but I kept reading as you will and I eventually began to understand the work of God's sovereignty in this world. I appreciate Calvinism because they are half-right. God saves us. Traditionalists are half right as well Men are responsible for rejecting or denying the Gospel. It's very clear once you begin to see it. I get just as offended at Leight Flowers always teaching we must choose, receive, and accept Christ. The responsibility for another's belief in God is on The Church. No one will be saved if we aren't obedient to the Spirit at work in us compelling us to share what Christ did for us. Has the message of the Cross captured our hearts and minds because of the Grace, Mercy, and Love of God? Then share the Love for Christ that's alive in your heart. If not, no one will believe and no one will be saved.

Hitler also did whatever he wants. Satan also does whatever he wants (although God doesnt allow everything sure, its still possible)

Can God cease to be God? Can God cease to exist?

Sorry, IvyViper, but you are using reasoning based on a humanistic standpoint to determine what is morally right for a holy God. That simply never works because these standpoints originate from completely diametrically opposed starting points. I used to attempt to quantify questions such as yours based on a personal/social "moralistic" codex based on my opinions of what I thought were right and wrong. The inherent problem with such thinking is that God is not a man and does not think as fallen, sinful man does--He is holy, just, and faithful. EVERYBODY deserves Hell for sinning against God (Romans 3:23). However, NOBODY has to (John 3:16-18)! Jesus Christ's blood pays for our sins (Romans 6:23) if we leave our life of sin and rebellion and start a new life (become reborn - John 3:3) with Him. That's why Christians celebrate Resurrection Day, aka Easter. Hallelujah!

@@michaelg7904 well said!

@AVB2 The differences here are: 1. God, by His determined purpose and foreknowledge allowed His sinless son Jesus to take the punishment in our place by dying on the cross, but he was not punished permanently. He rose again and lives forever. 2. Jesus had a choice to not go through with it but chose to do so. 3. Calvinism asserts that sinners who are ‘passed over’ by God (in other words not loved by God) are permanently severely punished without any choice in the matter. This doctrine does not reflect the love of God and turns the unbeliever away. Sad.

@AVB2 I agree, Jesus never disobeyed His Father....because He chose not to. Maybe you overlooked that Jesus 'was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.' Hebrews 4:15 Thus he was tempted to sin, but chose not to. For example, He was tempted by the devil in the wilderness, but chose not to yield to temptation. Matthew 4:1-11 He was also tempted to refuse to go to the cross, but chose to go. '....and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.' Matthew 26:39 Jesus faced choices to obey or disobey His Father and so do we, especially whether to be saved or not. May God bless you brother.😀

True brother. I made a short video explaining each word Sheol, Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus and why they should not be translated hell in the first place. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/i9CBl61enLTGYoE.html

The Germanic concept of Hel is basically identical to Hades. We all go to Hel when we die. Some go to the good place and some a place of punishment. Then there is the resurrection and the entering into the fullness of God’s presence.

"damng" people will be saving them. They will be NO MORE. Yes, annihilated. And this is mercy. So, in that sense, all will be saved!

jamie Russell So instead of the most merciful option, which would be giving more chances to accept his grace, it would be better for him to just annihilate them? That not any honest person's idea of mercy.

***** He is incorrect but so are you. Scripture teaches of eternity of torment. It was meant for the devil and the angels that rebelled against God, but man in his rebellion will join them. God, knowing all, knows that no matter how many opportunities given some will ALWAYS choose to go against him - there is no mercy in continuing to force himself on them - he is no rapist!

masterkeep "God, knowing all, knows that no matter how many opportunities given some will ALWAYS choose to go against him" I'd like to know the passage where it says that, without exception, there are people who would rather be tortured forever than choose an eternity of peace.

***** "If you asked those people that very question, "Be tortured forever or chose eternity of peace" would they even believe either were possible if they dont believe in God?" If they ended up in hell they certainly would, and only a cruel and unjust God would force people to suffer when they would be willing to repent. Of course, you could be a calvinist and argue that God forces people to be masochists for all eternity, while at the same time admitting that the pain these masochists feel is something that don't actually enjoy... which is just as stupid as the free will excuse (more stupid, actually). Face it: the only option available to Christians that isn't morally repugnant is Christian universalism.

An infinitely just God would not elect some and not others.

@@ervabarnesii4892 True. God is Holy: can't tolerate sin, that's why we oughta be washed in the blood. God is love: that is why he sent Jesus Christ to die for our sins. God is just: that is why he punished Jesus Christ the just in our place, us, the unjusts. Jesus Christ tasted the holy wrath of God the Father in our place. All things seems to revolve around God being love and holy.

Calvin was a piece of work. I don't understand why really intelligent and learned men of God don't know Calvin's history and don't question Calvin's hardline, unloving and even murderous motives in the predestination doctrine that some still follow to this day. Only a man lacking mercy could espouse predestination, as in God destining some to hell just because he's God and he can do what he wants. I do believe in hell as a sad reality, but people who choose to reject God to the bitter end go to hell. Predestination goes against the myriad scriptures and doctrines about free will. "Choose you this day who you will serve, as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord". I guess Joshua was delusional and just thought he could choose God or not, since Calvin hadn't come along to tell him he couldn't.

Sainte Jeanne d'Arc If you believe that God is all-knowing and all-powerful, there's no other sensible doctrine than that which involve predestination. unless your free-will doctine will ensure to save all of mankind, then it's no more worse than predestination. at least predestination is consistent with an omniscient God. if you really believe you have free will, then God would have to be NOT omniscient. because he already knew some people will become athiests and will never believe til the end before even creating them. yet he STILL creates them anyway knowing all too well that they would use their "free will" to be an athiest to the very end and thus will be condemned to hell for eternity. see? still predestined!

@@neocyte85 I also believe God is loving and merciful. You see that max guy above your comment? He doesn't give a crap for people because he thinks God doesn't give a crap for people, so he can just blurt out that "God creates most people to be evil and for hell". That's your predestination doctrine in a nutshell: I'm God, I can do what I want so I will it that most suffer in the torment of hell, oh and I sent my son to suffer horribly for no good reason, because my will is screw people anyway and screw my son who died at the hands of evil people who I created to be evil. This is the God that atheists scoff at and want nothing to do w/ and I don't blame them. But you keep selling them that version of God, not much different than the devil. There's no hope in that gospel message. If God decides you're screwed, you're just screwed and there's no point in repenting, in doing better, there's just no hope. It's a gospel devoid of hope.

I don't think he evades the question at all. I just think many don't like his response. Yes it is God who grants repentance but he is not obligated to save everyone. That's what makes him a sovereign ruler. He can do what he pleases. That may sound "Unjust" but God is not unjust he is the very definition of Justice. And yes the Bible does not clearly say blatantly that people are "prestined to hell" but there is definitely scriptural support for the doctrine itself. What many people don't understand is that Calvinist are not calvinist because of John Calvin. Calvinist are calvinist because when it comes to biblical exegesis it complety harmonizes with what Calvin taught. Same with Luther, same with Wyclifee.

Here's a thought. Mankind is outrageous. So it is God's decision to redeem whoever He wants to instead of simply throwing us all away. Since we are slaves of the flesh but have some limited free will, God knows you personally. Knows what you will do and will think and how you will respond to grace and truth. Logically, knowing who will respond fruitfully, they are chosen, elected, for heaven.

We are not debating whether we deserve hell. We are debating whether God created certain people to go to hell and others to be saved (Calvinist) or whether it is of our own free will to accept Christ and be saved. And of course there are those who say both are true, but there is no logical way to support that. I think many in this discussion aren't even aware of what we are debating.

Yes, that is true! And thanks for that reminder. I was just addressing all the posts I saw about Hell. That was what I was trying to accomplish.

Spot on.

Nailed. It

On the money!!

Your explanation is partly true about the predestination doctrine (not entirely true). Yes, he chose to save some sinners and predestine others to hell cause they deserved it just like Piper explained. In the end, God is still righteous by doing so because He is the sovereign God. He shows mercy to those whom He may show mercy, and compassion to those whom He may have compassion (Romans 9:15). Again, because He is GOD.

You don't have to understand it but the bible does point to pre destination . I believe it's because he already knows our hearts and our choices. He still wanted to create he may have had to not create at all if he wanted to avoid evil. His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. His ways higher than our ways.

Wait so we are not all creations of God?

@@kritikasampleone7457 I agree with Janet, Christ said MY sheep hear my voice. In other ocassions he told men that they were of their FATHER the devil. Imagine me saying that to someone. Those are strong words. and these are only 2 examples. Its a very deep subject that i would like to know more about... but it does seem that their are children of lucifer. Look at Cain for example, or Nimrod etc. However they are all still Gods creation, but evil is the backdrop to show his glory.

jumjum151 Amen. It’s all Amazing to me! His salvation what a gift!!! I’m grateful and thankful God bless you

@@jumjum151 God deserves help since he is the creator of Evil

@@DV77737 You are just lucky bastard

@@Android-ds9ie very lucky

Do you want to be saved?

Dkabakjian18 Of course the word of God applies to us the same today as it did in ancient times. Are you a cessationist? Do you think God changes His mind? Do you not understand the prophetic gift? Do you reject the Holy Spirit? Your statement about how the passage of Jeremiah does not apply to us today is foolish and reveals a deep lack of knowledge of God's heart for us. (Hebrews 13:8)

Do you think that everything that happens is God's sovereign will? Nobody should. However, God has a plan for our lives just as certainly Satan does. The plan we agree to must come to pass is the one we fulfill. "Many plans a man has in his heart, but it's the Lord who determines his steps." In summation, God's word through Jeremiah was not even realized in the lives of all Jews, but God's promises are always 'Yes and Amen' in Jesus. I fully agree with you in that God does not bless us to simply make us healthy, wealthy, and wise, but He blesses us so His will for our lives can come to fruition.

Christ died to pay for the sins of the elect

@@TheFinalJigsaw For God so loved the elect, and only the elect, he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever was predestined to believe in him should not perish. Meanwhile, everyone else was created for the sole purpose of occupying Hell. Yeah, that’s quite a gospel message. That’s why Calvinists hide their true beliefs when evangelizing. There is no Gospel under Calvinism. If you’re elect, you were never in danger of going to Hell. If you’re not of the elect, then there is no good news, and you never had a Savior.

@@BPond7 ya pretty much

​@@TheFinalJigsawjust shut up man

Gnosticism is not fully compatible with Christianity.

No but the offence comes in the last part where he says because of hell we’ll be more overjoyed in heaven and that just comes off sadistic to me. God takes no pleasure in the death of the unrighteous. That is what I believe and that is the God I worship and serve.

@@dmr4702 We need to read the Bible from start to finish tho. It's scary stuff, but Piper is mostly correct. Except the Eternal concious torment view of hell. I can see annihilationism clearly in the Bible ( which is also scary, even though more merciful ).

@@CappieBG True we should read the bible from start to finish, but I’ve read a fair amount of the bible and I see clearly how God works his purposes through man’s own decisions, I think coming to a conclusion like believing it’s all just a big play and God gave us the illusion that we make free choices just for us to never be given a choice sounds like it would compromise God’s integrity. God is not a God of confusion, to be a Calvinist you still must live life as if you have a choice and have the mindset that you have a choice, why would God make that a fact if he would tell us that we have no choice. One of the reasons God’s work is so fascinating is because he works through man’s own free will, he works out his purposes through people’s own choices, he strengthens our own position yes, does he choose our position? I don’t believe so. Jesus spoke in parables so that the Pharisees couldn’t understand what he was saying: “this is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.” - Mathew 13:13 He knew that they would have a chance to listen if he told them straight up, but he was allowing their own hardness of heart to keep them in their own ways in order that his purpose could work through their own will.

+LYNDON COZZUTTO Do you enjoy spanking your children when they misbehave? If you don't discipline them you are a bad parent. It's not complicated ,really.

+LYNDON COZZUTTO God is glorified in his justice ,although I dont know whos going to give him the glory for it ,maybe the angels .God doesnt need to be pleased to be glorified ,its quite complicated .

Ricky Westley You said it, "God is glorified in His justice." That's your answer.

we ALL deserve hell

We know through what God's word teaches just like anything that pertains to God, Life or godliness. In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if Elohim peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. Now we pray to God that you will not do anything wrong-not that we will appear to have stood the test, but that you will do what is right, even if we appear to have failed. For we cannot do anything against the truth, but only for the truth. In fact, we rejoice when we are weak but you are strong, and our prayer is for your perfection. Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted. Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. If anyone thinks they are something when they are not, they deceive themselves. Each one should test their own actions. Then they can take pride in themselves alone, without comparing themselves to someone else, for each one should carry their own load. Nevertheless, the one who receives instruction in the word should share all good things with their instructor. This verse should sum it up for you,. The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

God's will and mission: God sent Jesus to save sinners (everyone) God IS love Love NEVER fails 1 Corinthians 13:8 "the Lord is NOT willing that any should perish..." 2 Peter 2:9 "My counsel shall stand and I will accomplish all my purpose" Isaiah 46:9-11 "And He has made known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, TO BRING ALL ALL ALL things together in heaven and on earth in Christ" Ephesians 1:9-10 "I have sworn by myself , the words have gone forth from my mouth in righteousness and will no be revoked; that to ME every knee will bow and every tongue will swear allegiance " Isaiah 45:23 " And that EVERY tongue confess that Jesus is Lord TO THE GLORY of the Father". Philippians 2:11 " Jesus IS the Savior of ALL mankind" 1Timothy 4:10 "For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Jesus Christ ALL shall be made alive" 1 Corinthians 15:22 All ALL ALL glory belongs to God

If people could read Hebrew and Greek; they would know that the word hell does NOT appear in the scriptures even once, and it certainly never left Jesus's lips. The word hell appears in only translations of the scriptures which would be better called transmutalations .

@@nevbillett7554 there is no difference between God and Devil both or Evil both want to destroy you

Wonder why He created us then hahaha Who shall I believe ?, God or your sad story hahahaha

nev billett Wrong. Jesus taught more about hell and eternal judgement than He did about Heaven. Example is His story of Lazarus and the rich man. You need to read the words of Jesus again. Read the Gospels and definitely read Revelation which is Jesus final teachings on Judgement and Hell.

I'm a Christian, I'm not buying it either. We have free will or we don't. I respect some Calvanist preachers who love the word, but predestination is error, and it turns unbelievers off for good reason.

@Backcountry Bobcat God chose people for good reason. One reason was they were willing, though most often reluctant. Another reason, stated often enough, is to give God the glory because they were most often pretty unsuited. Think Moses being slow of speech and not eloquent, so God provided Aaron as a helper. Most every disciple was very willing, but a total ragtag team of fishermen, tax collectors etc. Only Paul and Luke were men of letters. Again, if there is no partiality w/ God, why would he randomly pick some for destruction, some for election? There's no love or free will in that. It's makes God and autistic player, treating us like a boy who pulls the wings off flies just to see what will happen. I don't serve that God. I'm not sure why Calvinists settle for that in many ways, but it can create a lot of arrogance at being elected and many of us have noted a lot of cold heartedness among them. It's a harsh doctrine. But hey, if you are elected, just cuz God said, there's no need to be very loving, gracious and all the rest.

@max marrero Well your views are creepy as hell and you have a dim view of a loving God.

The Bible says to dust you are and to dust you will return what what exactly the h*ll is going to burn if we are made from dust... that's my line of argument yours doesn't make sense it actually contradicts with what the Bible teaches .. Gehena is A greek word for hell why do those 2 words have diffent meanings tell me???

Nailed it !

Wow. horrific. Sucks to not be chosen then.

It's not a contradiction. God says He will give mercy to whom he will give mercy. That means He freely chooses to NOT give mercy to some. Since we are all sinners, we are at enmity w/ God. We are not at all w/peace w/Him right from the get go. God is a just God. God gives mercy to some.He gives justice to others. (hell). The question why God saves some is not the question we should be asking. We should be asking, "Why does God give mercy to even ONE person!" But thanks be to God that He DOES give mercy to some, even though they were born into this world at war w/God. Salvation is of the LORD. (not of ourselves). Looking back at your 1st sentence, "God cannot condemn us for a choice we couldn't possibly make in the first place." That statement is misleading, because we all inherited sin from Adam and Eve. And we make choices all the time. We are inclined to evil in those choices UNTIL the Holy Spirit regenerates the spiritually dead person. THEN, the person is inclined towards the things of God. The struggle of the flesh will remain, but one a person is born-again, that individual basically wants to please God and the process of sanctification begins. It seems to me, that you don't think it's "fair" that God freely chooses to save some while not saving others. But who are you to say whats fair? You are the clay and not the Potter. God is righteous in all His judgments. You, on the other hand, are simply opinionated and don't know what's "fair" or just. That's God's domain alone..especially on the matters of whom or whom will not be saved.

How do you know he's given that mercy to you?

That's easy to answer. By human standards, I was highly unlikely to ever know Him. I was raised by atheists. Growing up I never thought of Him. But God directly dealt with me. One day I had no interest in Him, then the next day I felt a strong hunger to know Him(or at least to see whom He might be, if He existed at all). I started reading the Bible and instantly I knew deep inside of me that His Word was Truth. But being the stubborn skeptic I was, I examined the Scriptures carefully, researched how the Bible came to be, studied church history,etc. The more I looked into all of those things the more convinced I was that the God of the Bible was true. I also looked at the other main religions and world views(including conclusions one must make from the atheist position). None of them made rational sense at all. But what rang true the most was Jesus and His historicity. Even His enemies recognized that he was historical. Some even believed He did miracles but attributed the miracles from coming from Satan! All in all, we must come to grips about Jesus. Is He whom He said He was or not? I am HIGHLY convinced He IS God in the flesh that came down from heaven to save His people from their sins. Being passive about it will be no excuse when we face Judgment. I hope you also research all these things!

I agree with everything you say and I'm happy you believe! I just don't think God wants anyone to go to hell. Period.

I would agree with you that God does not desire people to go to hell. But God is eternal and His attributes are consistent and unchanging. So that causes quite the dilemma now doesn't it? God does not wish hell for people yet He MUST punish sin and execute His righteous justice . There are but two destinations in the afterlife: heaven or hell. Since sin cannot be in God's presence in heaven, then those that do not have their sins covered by the blood of Jesus and have Jesus' righteousness imputed into that individual, what destination will they go? It's impossible to be in heaven if they rejected the Gospel and lived a life of no repentance, therefore they MUST go to hell. If God allowed those people into heaven, then He would NOT be a righteous Judge! When we read the Bible, we must allow the Bible to interpret itself. In other words, we can't choose one verse that we prefer while ignoring other Scriptures. We must look at the whole counsel of God. The Bible mentions numerous times that there will be people in hell. God does not 'enjoy' to judge people to hell, but He must. God is love. God is holy. The two are not at odds w/one another. They don't contradict themselves. "For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!"Ezekiel 18:32. But do all people repent? And have faith? Obviously not. So IF a person does not have faith and does not repent, then it means that it is impossible for them to receive eternal life. So if they won't be able to enter heaven, we must conclude they will go to hell. God doesn't take pleasure in them going to hell. But since He is perfectly holy and righteous, he must execute justice and send souls to hell.Period.

Rick Rairdon Tapdance on

No, he was talking about those who believe in him and call on him to be their Lord and savior, that God gave those people to him, that those people now belong to him, paid for and bought with his blood through his sacrifice.

You may want to read a little further when Jesus said: "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

I was thinking about that too he desires that all be saved

Then who did John see in revelation getting thrown in the lake of fire? Real people or make belief? If they were real then it's obvious to see that God already knows who's going to hell.

God hasn't changed, even if you've changed.

@@chrismusix5669 but it is nice to be closer to God than to be a boastful arrogant pharisee.

Calvinism is total garbage

That’s true, saying ur no longer a Calvinist really is saying I just no longer believe or agree with the Word of God. Well I’d say then with that t hey went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us

Me too I can except there is some mystery to things without reaorting to Calvin's 5 points which paint a bleak picture but also have massive theological holes in. I except we can't understand everything