Today we discuss updates on the First Knife and Winnower! Multiple characters seem to point at the fact that the Winnower (like Gardener) does exist. Maybe not in the form of a "Big Bad Villain" (Like the Witness), but as a force of darkness.

The winnower seems mainly to want to let life flow naturally into some final shape, while the witness wants to force the shape it desires onto the universe. This to me shows that they are different to some degree.

Looks like the Winnower brought a knife to a gun fight

The Winnower better have insane drip 🗿

Honestly, I'm starting to think The Witness... it's the witness of The Winnower.

I don't think we'll ever meet The Winnower nor do I think it's an individual, it's just one of many names for The Darkness as a whole, just as The Light has many names. They transformed themselves into 'rules' of our universe.

Witness went from "We" to "I" quicker than Eddie Brock ditching the Venon symbiote LOL

I don't think the "Unveiling" book was written by the Witness. The language used on that book is completely different from the one the Witness uses. Also, the book was translated by Eris from the same device that gave us the vision of our clone in the end of Shadowkeep. In the vision it was the Witness speaking to us, always using "we" and not "I", as in the book. Why would it speak to us in the vision with his usual tone and pronouns, then give us a book from the same device where he speaks and puts himself completely out of character? From the 1st page of "Unveiling": -"But imagine the abomination of a world where nothing can end and no choice can be preferred to any other.". Isn't what the narrator classifies here as an abomination the exact idea the Witness have for the final shape? This alone should rule out the Witness as the author of Unveiling. The narrator in "Unveliing" uses an expression in the book that we saw usage before the Witness and even D2 were a thing: "Majestic, Majestic". This same expression is said to Oryx when he is in the deep in the Books of Sorrow Verse 4:2. There is an entity speaking to Oryx on this verse and the way it speaks again does not matches the Witness tone at all. The entity literally tells Oryx to "relax". Can you image the Witness asking anyone to relax? Me neither. I think in both this verse of Books of Sorrows and Unveiling, that's the Winnower speaking, not the Witness.

I was waiting to see a lore channel cover this. When I heard it I was shocked

I was listening to this while pruning plants in my garden. It felt very strange.

I always thought that the garden was just the primordial goop before the start of the universe with like virtual particles coming into existence and then just destroying themselves. So that the gardener and the winnower are just personifications of order and entropy, so like they aren’t super real… but like still exert force. So like the traveler isn’t the gardener but was made by it. Also the rule change is the Big Bang

It might just be me, but I do hope Bungie doesnt go the route of killing the winnower. Its a cosmic force, same as the gardener. Something like that feels, to me, like something you simply cannot kill. Its too powerful. In the same way as you cant kill the gardener but can kill the traveller if you try hard enough. It would feel weird if we were to kill the winnower bc its a cosmic force without malice or pride or anything as it is above it

To me I get the vibe that the traveler and the veil are the light and darkness. The traveler is the gardener and the veil is the opposite. The winnower, as its name suggests, is the creator of these two and overseer of the garden of the universe. It believes balance and for the universe to take whatever shape fate and survival of the fittest guides it. The Witness is an avatar of the veil much like how the guardian is an avatar of the traveler. Now that the witness is dead after attempting to force a final shape, a new avatar must take its place in the vacuum of darkness power as per the winnower’s balanced design. The Veil will likely gain a new avatar soon.

It is important to remember that since the Witness is a compound being, there may be at least one voice in its chorus that does speak like the author of Unveiling.

If you think about it, the gardener is the one who forged the knife. The traveler blessed its people first with knowledge, with power, with no purpose. The darkness, the winnower, reached out and gave the knife purpose.

It's always a good day when Evaze uploads.

Gardener and winnower Both not evil nor good. Just doing there purpose. Every new garden is different… well except the weird gardens where the vex win. I like to imagine just 2 god entity’s just staring at another vex garden bed (vex consumed universe) winnower just grabs his/her shears. “Snip snip snip snip”

I still can't believe the actor Brett Dalton, who played Agent Grant Ward / Alveus - "Hive" in Agents of SHIELD, also voiced The Witness. Big W from Bungie for choosing him to voice an iconic villain. Similarity between Hive and the Witness is that they're both an ancient, hivemind like beings that want to meet their "deities", just like Hive wanted to meet Kree and The Witness with the Traveller. Each of them in their own way... Both of them as a hivemind like beings, they have access to preserved memories of their previous hosts/species, can kill with a gesture and control their followers. And lastly, they both pursue their own goals.

Evaze ! ( or anyone trying to find the raid collectibles , there’s is one on the second encounter - above the huge green statues , climb ontop and keep climbing towards the statues. ( let me know if you need more direction ) there an “ Apple 🍏 “ there between the statues. Drops a new lore book.

Evaze I doubt you'll see this but I wanted to bring up a theory about the 9 with you and the community. When Mara brought the 900 passengers from Yang Liwei including herself into a new form of existence we now know as the awoken. There were 9 unaccounted passengers among the newborn awoken. Later the chosen leader Alice Li is accused of deicide. For she could have given them all divinity but denied them this higher form of existence. My theory is that prior to Maras choice for the future of the crew. Somehow 9 unknown passengers made their choice first and actually acsended. Once they were divine they could exsist outside the laws of time and soace which could explain any appearance theyve made both before and after the creation of the Awoken. Sorry for the rant just want this to be posted somewhere for some dialgoe to discuss this theory and have posted this to you and Byf lol.

I was very surprised and disappointed to see that the raid armor sets only have lore for the class items :(

It will be fascinating to meet the winnower the true controller of the darkness.

The theory I like is that the winnower and gardener are HEAVILY personified in unveiling. They're written as if they are conscious, thinking beings, but I believe they're just the dark and light. Fundamental forces of the universe, like gravity. I think the witness sees these forces at work and assigns them purpose in an attempt to force understanding from them. It sees the "battle" between light and dark and then picks a side. Then, to give itself purpose, it believes to ve acting out the darkness' will. However, it has no will. Like gravity, it just is.

Maybe the traveler is the gardener and the veil is the winnower because didn't the witness originally get its power from the veil after the traveler first fled

What if the Witness just read the Unveiling like us and took it upon its self to be the first knife, believing the constructs of Gardener and Winnower to be manifestations of life and creation, and memory and dream.

I love the detail that the voice of the witness has less and less voices speaking in unison as we destroy its dissenters

Winnower = The Idea. Witness = the force. Gardener /traveler are the same just opposite. We choose light or dark. The witness sought to "carve" out the light. The travel watered the the seeds of life. But who or what planted the seeds? Who or what removes the rot? Just my thoughts.

From the sound of it, maybe the Gardner took the form of the traveler and maybe the winnower took the form of the veil, there was a scene with the veil behind the witness like it was watching over it

Tbf the traveler had been restarting the timeline because in every other timeline everything ended, the witness was an anomaly iirc

Remember in Lightfall when Maya hears a voice talk to her in her own voice? That couldn’t have been the Witness because the Witness would have at least known the Veil was in Sol. It would have sent it’s Disciples to all of the planets in Sol until it found the Veil.

Witness=Sauron? Winnower = Morgoth? The Witness is basically a tool of the Winnower in the same way Sauron was to Morgoth in Tolkien lore. I don't think the Traveler = Gardener even though it is referred to as such by characters. I think the Traveler and the Witness are/were tools of the Gardener and Winnower who can give powers to whoever they choose but may not be able to directly influence the "game:.

The garden is the universe I like to imagine the gardener sometimes speaks to its best chosen Much like how the winnower spoke to oryx. Oryx is doing his own thing while following some principles of the winnower. Oryx is just way more enjoyable to talk to compared to the witness

Calling it! Winnower gonna have the “Squared Fleet”!

I loved when he said we will not yeild in the raid after 2nd dps

that line about gods forged us both is so fucking cool

Sounds like Agent Smith to Neo. Why do you persist? "Because i choose to"

I always felt that the witness served someone and now I feel that it is the case especially after how easilly we defeated the witness

So...could it be that we're finally getting back around to the entity once referred to as "the shapeless one?" The voice that persuaded both The Precursors and Maya's team on Neptune?

Winnower about to be a new gun

the witness is such a cool villain

And the traveler is herald of the gardener.

Thank you for making this video. I have been playing Destiny since the Destiny 1 beta. I’ve just logged in and found a cutscene showing how guardians apparently beat the Witness and everyone was celebrating. I guess I did a good job of avoiding spoilers. I figured the Witness would be a raid boss later in the season, not during the launch week. Logging in and thinking all of those years went down the drain for a passing cutscene because I hadn’t the time, or ability to get the DLC on launch week was… Well, it’s the most nihilistic I’ve felt toward a video game, that’s for sure. The people who swore to me that they’d be there with me when the story culminated don’t talk to me, or don’t log on anymore. I’m still waiting for the story to be more meaningful than a gaudy F.O.M.O. Thank you for making it seem like there’s something worthwhile to come back to at this point.

Although The Winnower is most likely real I don't think it has a physical body like all of us do. These beings are on a higher plain of existence. If we somehow ever encounter the winnower or gardener it would be some type of lucid dream. Something apon those lines.

“WE. WILL. NOT. YIELD!!!” Goes so fucking hard

The witness had drip during salvations edge🔥

finally, I always knew the winnower and the witness weren’t the the same thing just like the gardener isn’t the traveler. It just gave off that vibe that they were separate entities. Essentially, the witness is a tool of the winnower, therefore the traveler is a tool of the gardener to carry out their game

so perhaps we have just threatened the winnower, especially with the traveler now spewing light and dark.

The veil creates the first knife. You see it almost happen on Neptune with the cloud ark. Also by introducing darkness into the traveler reverts the game back to normal as the traveler can now remember and think instead of acting on instinct. We literally gave an eldrich being a higher consciousness.

I also need to ask the question, what about the 9? i forgot about them, do they have anything to offer in this part of our story?

Love your videos. Keep going as long as Destiny does. This is interesting insight as far as a possible Destiny 3. Evidence given, the Winnower doesn't give a damn. It just is. But what if it makes a conscious choice to give a damn? Destiny 3.

In the tale the gardener is the one that introduces chaos. The winnower seems to be truly ambivalent

I said awhile ago it seemed like the precursor race didn’t just learn some revelation when they found the veil, like something revealed it to them when they found it. I’ve wondered if the Winnower is actually real Also if they started viewing themselves as “first knife” if there is others? Kinda like how it had disciples, was Witness a disciple itself to something bigger

now do we think the traveler is just the gardeners witness?

The lore has always spoke of the two entities, the Witness and the Winnower, Paracausal to our Guardian and the light (Gardener). Echos is the Light reaching out except now we've removed the Knife an entity that we might either need or become.

Hey Evaze, remember in forsaken when we woikd visit queen in her throne world. There was one time she had us leave because she had a visitor and her visitor didn't like guardians. Did we ever find out who that was. I'm thinking Savathun or Xivu but don't remember if we even ever was told.

when you vs some of the bosses in the paleheart they have names like the fang of the witness and the claw of the witness. i think thier maybe many other tools in the tool shed.

Does Light come from the Traveler, or does the Traveler just grant to people, but the Light itself is entirely seperate? Would there be other ways to gain the Light, or is the Traveler the only way in the universe to get it?

So your- your telling me we need to kill something above a god?!?!!

Can't wait for the next enemy giant octagon ships!

Winnower and Gardner Veil and Traveler Witness and Our Guardian

You do enough. You are enough You are loved sir

I think it’s more along the lines of the Winnower being another name for the Darkness, like others have said. The Darkness is a cosmic force, an influence, like the light aka the Gardener. When the Traveler - equivalent to the Witness in being a tool to fulfill an agenda - abandoned the Veiled, the Darkness - “Winnower” - came to them. The Veiled witnessed the power of the darkness, they were the first to fall to it. Converging into one entity, the Witness twisted the Darkness’ agenda into one fueled by revenge and seeking dominance and sole reign over the universe. The Darkness, much like a hand, can shuffle the pieces. But the Witness, the knife, is the physical manifestation that carries out the agenda.

I thought the Traveller was the gardener Evaze , so what do u mean by it has trouble interacting with beings here in sol?

the strongest and most adapted survive… yeah, take that, witness.

So the witness is the Sauron to the Winnowers Morgoth.

There’s prob two mysteries I hope we figure out throughout the season or next expansion. The vex over the years have been sorta, meh, kinda forgotten but one thing Calus said (I believe i forgot who but it was said) that the vex we been fighting the whole time has been basically peasants n farmers so fighting an actual army version of the vex would be fun. One comic horror the awoken know is a space like creature that will appear n leave no survivors left n its left to rumors of its existence, that one prob could be a season pass n not an actual expansion

I think the 9 are part of it. I think some of them are the light (circle), the grander, the creators, made traveler etc. Some of them are darkness (triangle), the winnower, the destroyers, helped make witness, etc I beleive there is a 3 part… the(square) They helped created the bet between the 2 and they are tied in both areas or a separate one all together. Just my thought as the cosmic beings that they are…

The Winnower is watching us and sounding like Shaxx about it.

I think the real first knife is the traveler who's light changes things and directly led to the winesses' creation.

Its not surprise that as Traveler spread ghost with light, it had a counterpart that spread darkness. Celestial entity like Traveler wont be just one, or it wouldn't need to create guardian (to prepare for some kind of war)(just my speculation)

I thinking that the traveler maybe used to have a voice and is maybe missing its voice were it now has to communicate through vision or symbols. If it can scream or something why not yell maybe its a broken off piece of a greater thing. The veil sounds like another broken piece that could connect. I feel like im reaching for something that could be there

Taken king < Witness < windower < the goth queen < your credit card < xur < the nine

Are we sure the Unveiling text was written by the Witness? It seems to me that it's coming from the perspective of the Winnower, especially after these revelations that the Witness is not the Winnower but the First Knife. The text describes a being who was at odds with the Gardener before time existed, and discovered the First Knife.

If light and dark is done, surely this isn't for future things to come

We know the traveler is the gardener so wouldn’t that make the veil the winnower? The veil is supposedly the dark traveler.

I swear. Destiny reminds me of a good anime sometimes. You beat the big bad then they become a part of the team (fallen, cabal) or the big bad was really a hench man for something worse (taken king, witness).

The witness looked like Shiva.

So is this to imply the winnower showed the precursors the veil?

There is always a bigger fish

The witness… is a disciple of the Winnower

The knife should be a Scythe that would be a proper representation of what the winnower is

After reading that it’s exactly what I thought the traveler is not a being of good nor is the gardener… for the gardener/traveler bestowed power unto the witness not the darkness… and the darkness while remaining autonomous watched and planned for the witness to be failed hence introducing the guardians to the power of darkness… not as a corruption but as a disruption… because it knew the concept of a being like the witness was would be more than an idle threat but a static one that would endanger everything…

I wonder what the Gardener and Winnower would even Do if they could interact with the univers properly

Since the Witness thinks of itself an extension of the Winnower, but maybe that's because Unveiling was made, so that the Winnower can clarify that it does not seek and end through such means, for the final shape is something natural to the Winnower And perhaps that is why the Winnower tried again with Maya, to make her into a second knife. Maybe the Winnower consideres the Witness to be a failure

Something I found interesting was how bungie may have taken inspiration of the Anti Life Equation from the DCU and come up with the final shape cause both objectives grant someone complete control to dictate a persons existence

It's a means of keeping the door open for D3.

Ooh, so I have a name to the next big bad I gotta burry

Light vs dark is over, I doubt we will ever see the winnower

7:45 where is the source? Can anyone share it plz

😂 10 years later I'm even more confused with this storyline

I feel like there is dominance in terms of the witnesses many voices The anger is the one towards The end of The final shape and The calm is the one during most of lightfall

I think the Witness likes to think it is the knife of the Winnower, when really the Winnower has ideas along the lines of the Hive’s conception of the Final Shape, since an entity which was probably the Winnower communicated with Oryx. Ironically, in the campaign, the Witness calls the Hive failures for being too obsessed with the first knife to see the final carving.

Evaze.. you should totally be a voice actor for anime.

I wonder how the IX fit into all this. They've been absent for a really long time now

Essentially the witness was just basically the first guardian of the darkness lol

to me, bungie themselves is the winnower, they create all these challenges and enemies for us to fight and conquer. The witness was created by the bungie devs as the first knife. bungie as the winnower can continue making adversaries for us as long as they see fit.

wohaaa there is an even bigger bad guy? dats crazy

What If the vex can't simulate paracausality because they exist within the original flower game, and the new rules to gardener proposed and enacted by putting itself in the new game thrt runs parallel to the flower game is paracausality

Maybe the traveler is what the Gardener created to change the game like it suggested. Only it didn’t remain isolated from the rest of the variables like it wanted.

I want to believe that the winnower is closely related to the Vex more than anything the precise emotionless and meticulously calculated pruning life similar to how the Vex prunes multiple timelines over and over again until they find the perfect outcome. Maybe the Vex are somehow part of the winnower that came about because of the gardener changing the game. The Vex are highly underrated and have some of my favorite lore and are a massive threat outside of light and dark ready to be brought to the next level like a paracausle collective consciousness that exists outside of time seeing every timeline knowing what branches to prune and when. They could build up the Vex as a threat that is unburdened by light and dark it seeks order through entropy and balancing out the chaos of the gardener spreading life carelessly. Time is ultimately entropy and the darkness it marches forward to the inevitable heat death of the universe and the dark endless void at the end of it