Did Mallory & Irvine Summit Everest 100 years ago? Author Dr. Robert Edwards new book investigates

Рет қаралды 10,730

Күн бұрын

The book: amzn.to/3QWE0qg
Wow. If you want the most comprehensive study of George Mallory's 3rd and final climb up Mt. Everest, read this book!
The book "Mallory, Irvine, and Everest: The Last Step But One" by Dr. Robert Edwards examines the mystery surrounding George Mallory and Andrew Irvine's 1924 attempt to reach the summit of Mount Everest.
The book provides a fresh and original perspective on this historical event, as the author is a mathematician who has applied modern analysis techniques to the available evidence. Dr. Edwards has thoroughly researched the contemporary accounts, letters, and artifacts related to the climb and has identified inconsistencies in previous narratives.
The book's release coincides with the 100th anniversary of Mallory and Irvine's fateful expedition and offers unique insights. Mountaineering experts Jochen Hemmleb and Thom Dharma Pollard have praised its potential to shed new light on whether Mallory and Irvine were the first to conquer Everest. This unique perspective is sure to enlighten the audience.
Mallory picked a strong, young, inexperienced climbing partner, Andrew Irvine, to push to the summit.
Video interview with the author, Robert Edwards
SPOILER #1: Nobody knows if either one of them made it. And this book doesn't offer a definitive answer either.
However, this book will enthrall you if you want to learn what the most meticulous researcher has discovered.
For example, Edwards spends pages examining everything about the mysterious ice ax found high on the mountain.
SPOILER #2: The ax is almost certainly Irvine's or Malory's, but we don't know which one. The author concludes that it was placed there and didn't tumble or drop there accidentally.
What I love about this book is that Edwards lets the evidence speak.
Although he speculates, he admits when he's speculating to let the reader reach their conclusion.
After reading this excellent book and interviewing the author, here's my best guess as to what happened:
Mallory probably reached the summit late in the afternoon, forcing him to descend at night. When investigators found his corpse in 1999, Mallory's sunglasses were in his pocket, indicating he descended at night. He ran out of oxygen, which sapped his strength and heat just when he needed to stay warm at nightfall. He had few clothes compared to modern climbers. Without oxygen, he got disoriented and wobbly. His judgment worsened. One slip was all it took to break his leg and slide down to his resting spot, where he was found decades later.
This hypothesis is my speculation, not the book's.
Get the book, and judge for yourself.
WARNING: This book may bore people with only a passing interest in this topic.
VERDICT: 5 out of 5 stars!
TIMELINE
00:00 Did Mallory summit?
01:20 Absence of data
01:52 Odell's sighting
06:18 2nd Step
10:50 The Ice Axe
17:00 Mallory's risk-taking
21:00 Irvine alternatives
24:30 Mallory solo to the summit?
27:20 Irvine body
31:00 Conclusion
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Пікірлер: 208

@leeseaman6068 Ай бұрын

A crystal-clear and highly intelligent interview that takes this analysis to a whole new level. It's been a breath of fresh air. Thank you.

@ftapon Ай бұрын

Thank you! Please share it! We need calm, dispassionate, unbiased analysis.

@diannebdee 27 күн бұрын

But Dr. Edwards assertion the Chinese won't let anyone off the fixed assigned routes is sort of moot. That's how Conrad Anker found Mallory by going off the accepted routes. So if we accept the whole argument the Chinese won't allow anyone outside those routes, then Sandy will never be found. However, without concrete proof the Chinese will only allow fixed routes, it still doesn't take into consideration that Sandy has never been found. I'd say the more accepted view would be what I mentioned above in the Chinese found Irvine and the camera and took him off the mountain and disposed of his body believing he might have been Mallory. Bao did say "Old English sitting." We know Mallory was in the arrest position and not sitting. So who was sitting as "Old English?"

@bobgeorge8382 Ай бұрын

Ultimately, there's no mystery about what GM stated numerous times about potential routes to the summit. The only mystery is why people are still talking about the second step. Mallory stated repeatedly (all in print in books, letters and postcards) that he had no intention of taking on anything so technically difficult such as the second step because even if he could climb them he would be too exhausted to summit. He took either the zigzag or couloir route and was spotted by Odell at the the foot of the 3rd step or even the 'citadel'. At 12.50, there was time to summit and unfortunately the accident happened on the descent. Well done Bob Edwards on not drinking the second step kool-aid and looking at the FACTS.

@ftapon Ай бұрын

I'm guilty of believing that the 2nd step was the only way. This interview indicates there were other options. Messner proved it on his solo ascent when he avoided the 2nd step. It's maddening that we haven't found Irvine.

@bobgeorge8382 Ай бұрын

@@ftaponI think most people believe the second step theory because many mountaineers and / or authors have lazily continued with this narrative (for whatever reasons). This despite Mallory repeatedly stating he wanted nothing to do with it! There is a lot of evidence out there pointing towards them traversing below the ridge and being spotted coming up around the 3rd step. So glad to see Bob Edwards doing his research and dealing with facts rather than yesterday's tired narrative.

@snappingbear Ай бұрын

Agreed. Michael Tracey has done an excellent job of thoroughly destroying the ridge theory. Mallory and no one on any of the early British attempts on Everest ever considered it. They always favored the routes that would bypass all the steps, especially the second one. Mallory was geared for rocks climbing that is why he likely took the zig zag route out of the couloir and once that happened he would have summited.

@kenkaplan3654 Ай бұрын

@@snappingbear You're right. Tracy has done a remarkable job over many videos deconstructing their attempt. If one looks at Odell's view from the precise spot, the second step is not visible. It is clear Mallory wanted the zig zag route, The evidence is very strong they summited. For anyone interested, I recommend Tracy's incredibly detailed videos tackling every aspect of their climb. All on KZfaq.

@jackharle1251 Ай бұрын

Agreed. Mallory had his goggles in his pocket, which suggests he was on the way down. No picture of his wife, or children, were found on his body (promised he would leave pictures at the summit). We know he had pictures of his children prior to the summit attempt as his wife had just sent him photos, which he acknowledged receiving. *Conrad is considered a slow climber when compared to today's climbers (Mallory was considered an alpinist, a fairly fast climber).

@jamesnasium4035 Ай бұрын

Makes more sense that they died on the way down from the summit, the way most Everest climbers day, exhausted and vulnerable due to the long period in the death zone. Michael Tracy makes a good case; one piece of evidence is a photo of Mallory's kids that his wife sent to him, which he did not have on him when his body was found, though he had two other photos of less important people on him. Mallory said he was going to leave a photo of his wife at the summit, but Tracy makes a good case that Mallory never had such a photo on his ascent--so it makes sense he would leave a photo of his kids up there instead.

@ftapon Ай бұрын

I've also heard at the whole story about the photo is fictional and has not been confirmed even though it has been repeated many times, so it seems true. I don't know

@kenkaplan3654 Ай бұрын

@@ftapon kzfaq.info/get/bejne/jsp9rdCn16_IiZc.html

@bluesserenader Ай бұрын

Quite a few comments to this video state the following: "There's a photograph of him [Oddell] pointing to the spot on the mountain where he last saw them." This assumption is incorrect. The photo was taken by Reinhold Messner in early 1978, when he visited Oddell at his home in England in preparation for his [Messner's] oxygenless attempt on Everest. The photo is reproduced on page 33 of Messner's 1978 book "Everest - Expedition zum Endpunkt", and the caption reads: Oddel mit Everest von Norden. Finger an der Stelle, an der die Eisaxt Mallorys gefunden wurde". Translation: "Oddell with Everest as seen from the north. Finger points at the spot where Mallory's ice ax has been found." So Oddell pointed at the ice ax spot, NOT at the spot of his last sighting of M.&I.!

@ftapon Ай бұрын

Thanks for the valuable insight. Lots of misinformation out there!

@MA-oj8zk Ай бұрын

To add on this aspect: The ice axe was found in 1933. Even today, with so much better equipement, in a lot of reports from climbers, positions are not identified correctly, sometimes even with huge deviations. We should keep this in mind not only when refering to the place where the ice axe was found but also regaring Odells ability to clearly remember when he saw what or who at which place. We know that Odell when askeds about the exact location gave different answers over time (which is absolutely understandable). Regarding Odell and the ice axe: When Odell saw the ice axe back in England, it's reported he saw 3 marks on it. Well spotted. Now I'm asking myself, when he was able to identify these 3 little marks, why he wasn't able to realize it couldn't have been neither Mallorys nor Irvines personal axe as it was too short for both of them. Furthermore, as it is believed today, it was an axe taken from one of the porters as a spare, why didn't Odell mentioned this, since, as a part of the team he must have known that this was a part of the general (not personal) equipement the team brought to the base camp.

@ftapon Ай бұрын

@@MA-oj8zk I agree with your two points. 1. Memories are fallible. Remain skeptical. Stay open-minded. 2. The idea that Mallory grabbed a spare ice axe is dubious. Climbers shave every gram. Mallory inventoried his oxygen supply & other items. Why wouldn't he mention a spare ice axe? Pairing your two ideas together: we might question whether the ice axe was found in a place where it's unlikely to have an accident. Perhaps it's unlikely for a normal climber to fall there, but oxygen-deprived climbers who are stumbling in the dark without a light (like Mallory & Irvine might been) do stupid shit.

@czarcastic1458 Ай бұрын

Then why did he change his mind where he saw them?

@ftapon Ай бұрын

@@czarcastic1458 For the same reason you change your mind as to where you last saw your keys. Humans reevaluate their memories, alter them, invent new memories, etc...

@philstevens3821 Ай бұрын

They traversed below the second step and possibly up the coulior or the “zig zag” route. Give Michael Tracey’s channel a watch. In my opinion he is a great source of information that he backs up with credible research

@czarcastic1458 Ай бұрын

Tracy doesn't know squat.

@kenkaplan3654 Ай бұрын

@@czarcastic1458 Based on what?

@allanfrederick8705 Ай бұрын

@@kenkaplan3654 He may speculate on some things, but MT is an asshole that nobody wants to collaborate with. He is a textbook narcissist.

@czarcastic1458 Ай бұрын

@@kenkaplan3654 All his opinions with zero facts. He doesn't know squat. He paints a pretty picture and you fall for it.

@kenkaplan3654 Ай бұрын

@@czarcastic1458 Actually he provides quite a bit of facts, especially wildly contradictory positions of a climber on the same issue.

@fergalohearga9594 21 күн бұрын

The book is brilliant. I can't recommend it highly enough.

@localbod Ай бұрын

Anyone who has studied Mallory knows that he had no intention of following the modern route and climbing the second step.

@bluesserenader Ай бұрын

Let me cite Colonel Norton in the 1924 expedition report FIGHT FOR EVEREST, pp.111&112, talking about his & Somervell's summit bid: "...The line we had followed was one roughly parallel to and perhaps 500 to 600 feet below the crest of the Noth-east Aréte; this was the line Somervell and I had always favoured in preference of the actual crest, which Mallory advocated." Here we have another source which tells us that Mallory clearly prefered to climb via the North-east ridge.

@johndefenderfer5946 25 күн бұрын

@@bluesserenader There are letters that George wrote before the expedition that laid out a case for not climbing the ridge and why he wasn't going to go that route. Also, he told the expedition photographer where to set up his cameras and the two routes he planned on taking depending on the winds/weather and neither one of the were the ridge route.

@Garde538 Ай бұрын

Great interview

@sabrinaboumenir4514 Ай бұрын

Amazingly done Bob!

@VTPSTTU Ай бұрын

Thanks for the video. I don't have an opinion on whether they reached the summit. I enjoy hearing educated speculation on the topic. Dogma is much less welcome. No matter what happened, they were remarkable men to have accomplished all that they did.

@ftapon Ай бұрын

I feel the same way although I am now leaning toward the idea that they may have reached the summit. 70% chance. Before, I thought the opposite.

@kenkaplan3654 Ай бұрын

@@ftapon The evidence we now know favors it

@eduardoprestes1663 28 күн бұрын

In hist last view, Odell said they were on the ridge, just under the last rock step before the summit. That is a strong evidence, it would be just under the citadel and third step. And if Mallory and Irvine was there around noon, they sure went to the summit, there would be plenty of time for this and no real obstacle. The weather was good that that day and the next day, it was not a threat to them. The most probable scenario is that they summited and died during the descent, in the dark, from a fall, and due to exhaustion, cold and lack of oxygen. If they were all the time under the first step, they would had gave up in the afternoon and return safely to the tent for a hot tea. It would be a short walk of 1 or 2 hours. They died because they remained long hours above 8000 m and beyond their pack of oxygen, exposed to the freezing night, what comprimise their strenght and skills. The fall was the result of a night descent in some kind of exhaustion. Their deaths is somehow a proof that they were climbing long hours and not making an exploratory walk around first step.

@ftapon 27 күн бұрын

I agree with your scenario. The only corrections: 1) They were spotted at 12:50 pm, which is "around noon" but I would say "around 1 pm" - that extra hour matters. 2) The weather was NOT good. First, Odell briefly saw them. Clouds covered the summit nearly the whole day. Good weather would mean they had clear visibility. They did not. An AI will provide the other facts regarding the weather: On June 8, 1924, the day George Mallory and Andrew Irvine disappeared during their summit attempt on Mount Everest, the weather conditions were likely treacherous due to a severe storm. Here are the key details: ## Significant Drop in Barometric Pressure Newly analyzed weather data from the 1924 expedition revealed a precipitous drop in barometric pressure in the days leading up to June 8th, indicating the arrival of a powerful storm system.[1][2] The pressure drop at base camp was around 18 millibars, which is considered significant.[4] ## Intense Storm Conditions Near the Summit The barometric pressure drop suggests that Mallory and Irvine likely encountered an intense storm with high winds, heavy snow, and poor visibility as they approached the summit on June 8th.[1][2][4] Such a storm would have made climbing extremely hazardous and difficult to navigate. ## Lack of Oxygen from Low Pressure At Everest's extreme altitude, the air is already severely depleted of oxygen. The additional drop in barometric pressure caused by the storm would have further reduced the oxygen levels, potentially causing hypoxia (lack of oxygen).[1][4] Hypoxia can lead to confusion, impaired judgment, and physical impairment, all of which are dangerous for climbers. While accounts from lower elevations reported only a brief afternoon blizzard on June 8th, the conditions experienced by Mallory and Irvine several thousand feet higher were likely drastically worse due to the elevation difference.[1] In summary, the newly analyzed weather data strongly indicates that Mallory and Irvine faced a powerful storm with life-threatening conditions of high winds, heavy snow, low visibility, and oxygen deprivation near the summit of Everest on the day of their disappearance in 1924.[1][2][4] Citations: [1] www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna38639968 [2] www.npr.org/sections/pictureshow/2010/08/06/129036467/everest [3] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1924_British_Mount_Everest_expedition [4] www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-10854272 [5] www.cnn.com/travel/mallory-disappeared-everest-summit-mystery/index.html

@eduardoprestes1663 24 күн бұрын

@@ftapon That is a kind of new for me. I thought it was a cloudy and windy afternoon, a quiet and freezing night, followed by a sunny morning. If they face a storm there, then it would be very difficult to endure in that old fashion mountaineering clothes. But Mallory for sure didn't die in a freezing position, he felt and broke a leg, maybe with a head injury too. And he was pretty close to their highest camp, where he and Irvine could had found shelter. The better scenario for them stay the same. They traversed the yellow band under the ridge and reappeared on the only position Odell could saw then "on the ridge", near the thrid step and the citadel. And this would be pretty close to the summit. The other possibilities is that Odell diidn't see them (foolished by some kind of optical illusion) or they went all the way by the ridge, with Odell seeing them climbing the first step (there is an view angle problem with this hypothesis). You say that the storm would blocked the path to the summit. I agree, but I think that if they were low on the ridge, they would had stopped climbing as soon as the storm approched. And if they were low, they could reached the tent in a pair of hours, in a good shape. I believe more in a forced error, by exhaustion or induced by a storm, if there was one. But this could only happened if they went far on the climbing, like Odell reported, and remained out there in the evening and the night.

@ftapon 24 күн бұрын

@@eduardoprestes1663 As Dr. Roberts states after 4:10, Odell was unlikely fooled by an optical illusion. I'm 70% sure that Mallory made it to the summit despite the worsening weather. As you say, exhaustion and darkness set it on their descent. He was found without his oxygen apparatus, so he probably ran out of oxygen on the descent, so he ditched the apparatus. However, without oxygen, he would have gotten much colder, and he would lose his mental faculties. People suffering from oxygen deprivation make stupid decisions like taking off their gloves. Maybe in his delirium, he left his ice axe behind. He lacked light, oxygen, and warm clothes. He stumbled through a storm, hypothermic, couldn't see, desperate to find his camp. He slipped, broke his leg, smashed his face, and died minutes after coming to a stop. Was Irvine belaying him? Did he cry Mallory's name into the howling wind and hear nothing? Did Irvine hide between rocks with his sleeping bag, freezing to death? It was not sunny the following morning. I was cloudy throughout the day and into the following day. Perplexity writes: The weather on Mount Everest the day after George Mallory and Andrew Irvine disappeared, June 9, 1924, was characterized by a significant drop in barometric pressure and temperature. This drop was likely the result of a meteorological phenomenon known as a Western Disturbance, which triggered a severe blizzard. The barometric pressure at base camp dropped by approximately 18 millibars, which would have exacerbated the hypoxic conditions experienced by climbers at high altitudes[1][2][3][4].

@jimmyzbike Ай бұрын

We know so much and yet so little. To my knowledge the physical evidence supports they did not use the modern route. Did they die on the way up or down? Modern statistics trend towards people dying on the way down after submitting.

@ftapon Ай бұрын

Your comment nails it!

@angelaoltean7905 Ай бұрын

Congratulation Bob!

@rickgoede5237 Ай бұрын

Odell was a geologist. He would not have mistaken a rock for a person.

@czarcastic1458 Ай бұрын

Or maybe he lied

@Jake-bt3fc Ай бұрын

Knowing about the composition of different minerals doesn't mean a person shaped rock doesn't still look like a person to you, lol. I'm a carpenter, if you carved a human out of wood it would still look human to me from a distance. I don't have magic wood detecting eyeballs.

@Ghostshadows306 Ай бұрын

What does being a geologist have to do with seeing two people at 28,000 feet more than a half vertical mile away? The truth is it doesn’t even take hypoxia to see things at distance that appear to be moving that are not. The way it’s resolved is by continuing to watch them for a period of time and eventually finding out. Odell wasn’t able to do that as a cloud system moved in and ended his view. The chances he saw rocks or Gorak’s is just as likely as him seeing Mallory and Irvine. There’s all kinds of testimony from people who have climbed Everest who thought they saw people moving up or down the mountain at distance, who eventually realized they were rocks or other objects and not people. That doesn’t mean Odell didn’t see Mallory and Irvine, it means it’s just as likely he didn’t see them as it is that he saw them. Which is unfortunate considering he was the one who had the best chance of knowing where they were and what may have happened.

@diannebdee 27 күн бұрын

And right up until he passed, his vision was impeccable.

@dukecraig2402 27 күн бұрын

OMG seriously, like there's not a difference between looking at something at a distance and holding it in your hand, it's not like he was looking at a rock in his hand or 10 feet in front of him and said "Look!!! It's Mallory going for the summit!!!". Your claim has got to be one of the silliest I've ever read on KZfaq, I mean really.

@williambarkho Ай бұрын

Congratulations bob! Awesome video and interview! M&I MADE IT! Thank you also Francis!

@polarbearsrus6980 Ай бұрын

We'll never know, but it is exciting to try and solve the mystery. This is one of 3 questions I would love to know the answer to before I die but it's impossible to know. Mallory (whether he did it or not) and Shackleton are my heroes!!! These were real men, not corporations and the wealthy on expensive, dangerous climbing tours for the wealthy. It's too easy, you can't compare it to the first explorers. Thanks for sharing.

@ftapon 28 күн бұрын

You're probably right that we'll never know, but I wouldn't say "never" until we find Irvine's body. If his body has rocks or photos from the summit, we'll KNOW they made it.

@10splitter Ай бұрын

The tricky bit would have been finding - relocating, on the way back down, the correct route through the cracks of the yellow band, which are labyrinthine, that would have led them back to their high camp.

@MakeItSo1111 Ай бұрын

Thank you! ❤

@opowqte Ай бұрын

GM chose Irving over Odell since Irving was a wizard on the very fickle oxygen apparatus beside being an althelete

@eduardoprestes1663 28 күн бұрын

And from where these north ridge route hypothesis came? Not from Mallory, that always discarded these route. If Mallory and Irvine followed a line under the ridge, to the couloir, they would only reappear on the ridge under the third step and the citadel. This is the only place that Odell could possible see them "on the ridge". And put them on this position is almost the same to say that they summited. So, to deny this possibility, there are only two ways. One, is to say that Odell didn't see them, it was a mistake, an allucination. The other is to say that the climbers went all way on the ridge, so they could be placed above first step and under the second step. The couloir routes connect to the ridge only around the third step, with a clean path to the summit. To admit that the climbers follow through the couloir and reach the ridge is the same to say that they summited. So came this north ridge route theory, that put the second step between the climbers and the summit. I know there is a time problem with the couloir-ridge route, and in those context the speculation of a "zig-zag" line to exit the coulour became important. It would be a quickly way to reach the ridge, much faster than traverse the couloir to the gully Norton tried and Messner climbed. Messner said it's impossible to exit the couloir other way. But Norton said that the today called "zig-zag line" would be a viable climb, almost easy, but very dangerous. I hope someone try these "zig-zag" line someday and tell us what he (or she) found there.

@ftapon 28 күн бұрын

Your hypothesis is solid! The weakness is that nobody has climbed the zig-zag route, and Messner said it was too hard. Messner went in August when it was snow-covered. Perhaps it's easier in June. The absence of any successful attempts on the route serves as a testament to the validity of Messner's claim: the zig-zag route is indeed a formidable challenge. Before this interview & book, I thought there was a 20% chance that Mallory summited. Now, I think it's 80%. I don't know why people don't think he could have climbed Messner's route.

@eduardoprestes1663 27 күн бұрын

@ftapon Norton tried the Zig Zag Line, it seems to be the obvious and most direct option for anyone traversing the Yellow Band, under the North Ridge. He found the route feasible, but very dangerous, due to exposure, slippery ground and loose rocks. Norton was alone, so he decided to cross the couloir and try the gully, a safer option. However, this is a more time-consuming line and afterall it became too late for him to go for the summit pyramid. Messner traverse lower in the wall, he was not as close as Norton to have a look at the zig zag area. The australians that climbed the Great Couloir reach the summit area by the gully too. Maybe, nobody went there except Norton, to get a closer look. Thousands of climbers crossed the North Ridge of Everest, but I never heard of one who tried to climb this line. It is more an untried line, not an impossible one. It was one of the three options that Mallory and Irvine had: North Ridge (and Second Step), "Zig Zag" and the gully (crossing the Great Couloir). I don't know which way they followed, but one thing I am sure about: they didn't stay fooling around all day, sitting on rocks and talking about the views. They tried hard to reach the summit, by one of these routes.

@ftapon 27 күн бұрын

@@eduardoprestes1663 I hope you're right. I'm just skeptical about the feasibility of an "untried line." Mountaineers LOVE to claim "first ascents" and new lines. Therefore, why hasn't anyone done the zig-zag line? Maybe it is too difficult. Dr. Edwards suggests the Chinese force people to stay on a narrow path toward the summit. Still, you'd think someone would get a waiver to try the Zig Zag.

@WellyCoaster 5 күн бұрын

@@ftapon Looking through the early records Frank Smythe in 1933 looks first to have identified Messners route. Hugh Ruttledge and the 1933 climbers communicated with Norton about route possibilities before the expedition. It doesn't appear to be in discussion before 1933. Norton favoured crossing the couloir to the west as high as possible, the steep roof tile slabs there with snow on them were what forced the climbers back. Smythe thought of a theory of entering the couloir low down below the yellow band and then climbing directly up and out the couloir on the west side (Messner and the Aussies route). The position of the camps look to be a factor on this route. Messner, the Aussies both positioned their high camp up in the couloir itself. 1924 camp being on the north ridge. Hugh Ruttledge in Everest 1933: "I would strongly recommend single-minded adherence to Norton's route, which offers a practical certainty of succcss in good conditions. Provided that you can synchronise the arrival of two parties at the top of their form with the absence of snow and three, or preferably four, days of consecutive fine weather, I believe that the summit will be reached by Norton's route. Before leaving this subject I should say something about a theory which Smythe has developed. This is, that the north face can be traversed at a level of about 25,500 feet, the couloir crossed at this height, and a lodgment effected upon the western part of the north face directly below the final pyramid. The face will then have to be climbed more or less directly, up what is undoubtedly steep ground ; but there will be this advantage, that the possibly more dangerous traverse of the upper slabs and the upper couloir will be avoided, and direct access afforded to the western subsidiary couloir leading to the easier slopes of the final pyramid. The difficulty is that, while we know the advantages of Norton's route and the possibility of placing a high camp either where it was placed in 1933 or, better still perhaps, on a snow-slope just below the first step, we cannot know without previous reconnaissance that Smythe's proposed route will " go," or that suitable sites will be found for at least two camps which would be needed on the face ; and a great deal of time would be expended in this reconnaissance." On a side note i think if the zig zag was a viable route the Chinese would have climbed it by now. In 1975 they had a party of four traverse under to the couloir (Nortons line). Days after this they shifted their high camp above the first step near mushroom rock and then went to the trouble of fixing the second step ladder. They had 9 climbers summit with the tripod. I think if the zig zag exists and was any easier than the second step then over the years the Chinese would have gone back and fixed it with rope. They know the area better than anyone.

@stewartjohnking Ай бұрын

Mr Edwards' comment that Mallory should have chosen Odell as his climbing partner is open to challenge. It's true that Odell demonstrated an ability to ascend and descend at high altitudes at remarkable speed. But the ability to manage the oxygen equipment was absolutely critical. Irvine was something of an engineering genius and had made major adaptations to the equipment. I think the choice of Irvine also reinforces the belief that Mallory was not anticipating anything much in the way of technical climbing. And definitely not the Second Step! Anyway, the book sounds thoroughly researched and Amazon is hopefully delivering it in a day or two. One final thing - people here have referenced Michael Tracy's videos. His analysis is terrific. But he is prickly and intolerant. You have been warned!

@ftapon Ай бұрын

True 😊 Tracey has strong opinions, strongly held. 😉 Let me know what you think of Dr Edwards's book!

@philcunningham6901 Ай бұрын

@@ftapon I would love to see a Dr Ed + Micheal Tracy conversation/ debate. They are both scholars and well educated on the subject ... and both seem to be stubborn by nature too

@ftapon 24 күн бұрын

@@philcunningham6901 I reached out to Tracy (you can see the thread on his video about a comment made in this thread). Tracy refused to debate Dr. Edwards unless Edwards agreed that the Chinese never summitted in 1960. Frankly, I don't see why that matters that much. Upon hearing that, Dr. Edwards declined to debate Tracy.

@iainthomson9160 22 күн бұрын

Having been at Sir Edmund Hillary view to the summit book launch in Melbourne Australia it was discussed in detail and in his point of view it was extremely likely that they made it to the possibility of a higher snow coverage over the 2nd step... I still have the signed copy of Sir Edmund Hillary view to the summit also signed by his son also and pictures of that day.... Peace to all...

@user-xi4ib4fp4o Ай бұрын

Sirs, does it matter whether they summitted or not. No, it does not. We all can have our own theories. But thr fact is they reached where no human had ever reached before. Their equipment and indomitable will power is an everlasting memory for all mankind to cherish and take inspiration from. Short by few hundred feet in 29000 feet ascent in hobnails is no mean feat. Sleep with pride, o great mallory and irvine, your legacy shall temain forever... Inspiring future mountaineers forever.....

@ftapon Ай бұрын

I agree that no matter what happened, their achievement was a remarkable milestone we must celebrate! But it does matter whether they summited because it makes their achievement even more noteworthy and it dethrones Edmund Hillary & Tenzing Norgay.

@Jake-bt3fc Ай бұрын

If you really really want to be pedantic, nothing about history matters. It does not matter to me _at all_ who was the first man to step foot on the moon. The second guy was 3 seconds behind the first guy so who cares who was first? We can make pedantic arguments like this all day long, lol.

@jacekkozianski711 Ай бұрын

@@ftaponSeriously, what did they achieve that was so marvelously different to the multitude of corpses that adorn Mt Everest, hmmmm? Some of those corpses actually made the summit, we have proof they did and here you are rabbiting on about conjecture, myth and legend from 100 murky years ago!!! I know you have to spruik your opinions to sell your books to inflate your bank balance, but for God's sake get a life - who cares after the hundreds who have summited and returned alive.

@kiwicory100 Ай бұрын

Did the expedition use a hand held signal mirror?

@ftapon Ай бұрын

I do not think so

@SuperEvilMonkee Ай бұрын

They had flares but in best Mallory tradition had forgotten them

@julianwood6625 Ай бұрын

Interesting and I like the mathematical approach. With regard to the ice axe, it is very, very, very, very unlikely to have been left there as a marker. The oxygen cylinder was found nearby, so why not just use that instead. It is almost certainly the site of an accident - either dropped by Irvine by mistake or else ripped out of his hands as the rope came taught and pulled him off his feet, due to Mallory falling some distance ahead. It looks like they were descending in the dark, so they would have been roped (and Mallory was found with the rope tied to him, which had snapped) and Mallory would have been in front. The axe is pretty close to the fall line. The inexperinced Irvine would have been left in the dark, without partner or axe. He would have tried to continue, realised that he couldn't and so got into his sleeping bag and died, only to be found by a chinese climber forty years later, who was descending away from the usual route.

@ftapon Ай бұрын

I used to believe the same thing that you did It makes a ton of sense what you write But in the book the author explains that the ice axe would have to defy the law of physics to be standing where it was found. See the book for the full and compelling explanation.

@julianwood6625 Ай бұрын

@@ftapon Defy the laws of physics?? Was it hovering above the ground? I read that it was found lying flat on some fairly horizontal slabs.

@ftapon Ай бұрын

@@julianwood6625 In 1933, Wyn Harris said the axe was "lying on the slabs, which are hereabouts inclined at an angle of 35-40 degrees, unsupported by crack or ledge, and dependent on friction alone for its lodgment." Robert Edwards writes in his book, "The proponents of the 'accident' scenario therefore had to believe that the ice axe had fallen from a climber's grasp and had stopped in the same spot, where no protrusion or indentation could arrest it. An object that falls even three feet is moving at 13 feet per second. Yet according to the 'accident' hypothesis, this falling smooth object had stopped on a smooth slab inclined at an angle of 35-40 degrees. In short, the 'accident' scenario defies the laws of physics. More than this, with available data, we cannot say."

@julianwood6625 Ай бұрын

@@ftapon Thank you for your response - much appreciated. What if Irvine was pulled along the slabs perpendicular to the incline? Also, he may not even drop it straight away, only after he's being pulled along the slabs himself, with the axe already on the deck. There's lots of possibilities - he could have landed on the axe creating large amounts of friction between the axe and the surface of the slabs. He could have had the axe with the spike in contact with the slabs (like using it as a walking stick) and not had a proper grip on it when he got pulled away - leaving the axe to pivot down onto the slabs and slide down a bit before coming to rest (neither the axe nor the slabs would have been perfectly smooth). From a mountaineering point of view, I reckon there's considerably less than a one percent chance that anybody would leave an ice axe as a marker and, if they somehow did, you'd have to multiply that by the probability that the person leaving it thought it would be sensible to leave it on a smooth slab inclined at 35-40 degrees - so you're talking less than 1 in 1000 at best. Compare that to a big unexpected accident - on rock slabs, he's going to drop that axe or have it ripped from him over 99% of the time.

@ftapon Ай бұрын

@@julianwood6625 I understand your point. You're right that there are scenarios where the axe could have been placed, and the accident occurred seconds later. At 13:40, Dr. Edwards observes that the found ice axe was too short for Irvine. But he also said that Irvine had to buy the ice axe. Maybe the short one was on sale? He was 21. He saw the climb as a "lark." On the other hand, you'd think that's one place you wouldn't want to skimp on. At 14:20, Dr. Edwards suggests that the ice axe belonged to a porter or was a spare. But if so, it would have appeared on their inventory lists. Climbers shave every gram of unnecessary weight. Carrying a heavy axe as a spare seems excessive & unrealistic. Also, using it as a marker seems hard to believe unless it was a spare. But if it was a spare, where did it come from? Why would a porter give up his ice axe? Another option: they ran out of oxygen on the descent. When that happens, climbers get disoriented & irrational. Perhaps Irvine, in the darkness, sat and placed his ice axe next to him while in a state of delirium. When he stood up again, he forgot about his axe and walked like a zombie until he fell or huddled a few meters down, trying to tough out the night. The possibilities are endless. We must find Irvine.

@MDog_FPV Ай бұрын

If they would have descended the second step, they would have had to leave a rope on the second step. Can not descend without leaving a rope. No rope was left hanging there... I believe Norton told Mallory to go try the ridge even though Mallory did not prefer the ridge, as Norton just tried the couloir route - he could have concluded they would need more oxygen and time to complete a summit via the couloir. They then attempted all options on the ridge and some accident happened. No summit is my guess. Maybe another interview with Michael Tracey

@MA-oj8zk Ай бұрын

Sounds plausible. In addition, we know (1) they had issues with the oxygen system already before they started the attempt (and had started late because of this) and (2) there was one empy oxygen bottle found below the first step which indicated at least one of them already had been on oxygen for some time below the first step. (3) No oxygen depot has been found, which might indicate they simply didn't have enough oxygen to establish a depot. (4) At the place Mallory's body was found, no oxygen system or bottles had been found which indicated they run out of oxygen. (5) I think it was Conrad Anker (i'm not 100% sure) who once said, that from his experience, the amount of oxygen they could have had with them (far less than today, the gear back then was factors heavier) wasn't sufficient for both to go to the summit and back safely and he thinks this is why they might have split on the second step. This would explain quite some facts but not why the rope on Mallory's body was ruptured. Finally: Edmund Viesturs in 1990 was the first person able to reach the summit and return before dawn (no batteries and headlamps back then) from a similar distance and time, how ever, he knew the route to the summit, his equipement was far more advanced then what Mallory and Irvine had back than and he surely was the better climber than Irvine.

@kenkaplan3654 Ай бұрын

@@MA-oj8zk I think Tracy deals with the oxygen bottle issue.

@michaelmello42 Ай бұрын

The Great Couloir

@ralphaverill2001 Ай бұрын

You haven't "conquered" a mountain until you have reached the summit and then gotten back down alive.

@TheSaxon. Ай бұрын

He wasn't a tourist climber though. Whilst no one wants to die, the objective was to reach the summit. The first person to summit Everest is the first person to Summit Everest. Armstrong would've been the first man on the Moon, whether he survived the journey home or not. The rules are different for "firsts".

@ralphaverill2001 Ай бұрын

@@TheSaxon. True enough. Mallory/Irvine may well have been the first to summit, but my point is that Hillary/Norgay were the first to conquer Everest, because they got back down to tell the tale.

@MakeItSo1111 Ай бұрын

Cliche

@summerfirebon2362 Күн бұрын

Saying this is the same thing as saying Robert Falcon Scott did not reach South Pole 1912 which is absurd.

@summerfirebon2362 Күн бұрын

The quote was said by Mallory son, who must have been bereft of his lonely upbringing without his dad which caused him saying this pessimistic saying.

@tomdaly1010 Ай бұрын

In Thom Pollard I Trust 🙏🏻… this was well done!

@snappingbear Ай бұрын

Really, the man who stepped past two dying climbers so he could summit? The first was saved by a British climber who abandoned their attempt to aid them. Pollard also defiled Mallory's body even removing his underwear among other things. He is the last person to ever trust.

@markpurdy9860 Ай бұрын

Tom Pollard has absolutely no credibility none whatsoever!!!!!

@jacekkozianski711 Ай бұрын

@@snappingbearis that something he does often? Phew yuk!!

@vitanus 54 минут бұрын

Ouch I hope you dont mean that. Great sarcasm if you didn´t though

@daniw565 Ай бұрын

@redlaw8760 Ай бұрын

This will be unpopular, but based on the evidence I've seen, the chances of Mallory and Irvine reaching the summit are quite low. Odell has been interviewed multiple times (and changed his statements multiple times as well). There's a photograph of him pointing to the spot on the mountain where he last saw them. It's clearly the first step. The zig-zag route is based on nothing other than pure speculation. Norton told Mallory that going up the couloir route almost killed him and Howard Sommervell. Their equipment, especially their footwear, was not suited to climb up the couloir. To use Messner's ascent, done over 50 years later, is not only misplaced but dismissive of the realities of the times. Scientific evidence shows that the barometric pressure at the time of their climb dropped, making the environment even more difficult. Again, going on probabilities, and not possibilities, the odds were highly against them making it.

@kenkaplan3654 Ай бұрын

"There's a photograph of him pointing to the spot on the mountain where he last saw them. It's clearly the first step." No it isn't. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/aLl3haaSrNC-lmQ.html

@redlaw8760 Ай бұрын

@@kenkaplan3654 Yes, it is. I've seen the picture. Posting one of Michael's Tracy's pedantic but ultimately irrelevant posts doesn't change facts.

@kenkaplan3654 Ай бұрын

@@redlaw8760 After Mallory's body was found, I read numerous in depth articles and debates among those who found him and other well known climbers as to whether they could have made it. Every single one assumed the obstacle was the second step, every single one assumed Mallory and Irvine took the modern route. Now the preponderance of evidence is Mallory clearly said he was avoiding it, not only from "pedantic" (it's called thorough) Tracy but now this author. At the end of what I suggested from Tracy he says it is impossible to verify a zig a zag route ( or "traverse east of the couloir" as Norton suggested in 1933 and Mallory had suggested earlier) because the Chinese will not aloow permits for that route and will end careers if tried.

@redlaw8760 Ай бұрын

@@kenkaplan3654 But to rely on writings and statements made by Mallory PRIOR to the 24 expedition ignores the reality of his situation DURING the 24 expedition. Logic, common sense, and Mallory's own responsibility for bringing Irvine, would not have allowed him to just reject Norton's account of his almost fatal ascent using the couloir route. Odell saw them at 12:10 PM. Judging by the evidence found at their camp, it's clear that they left later than they anticipated. For them to have made it to the 3rd step (which was not even called that at the time) at 12:10 is extremely unlikely. By the way, Messner has stated that he did not see any route from the couloir that would lead to the third step. A zig-zag route to the summit a some point invariably includes the couloir. So they would have had to find their way east of the couloir and then up. Now, I do not know if they made it. In all honesty, I would LOVE to see evidence that they did. My point is simply about probabilities. Things were extremely tough that day.

@julianwood6625 Ай бұрын

How many pieces of misinformation have you just put out there - I make it 6 minimum.

@cupatelj Ай бұрын

Did Mallory & Irvine Summit Everest 100 years ago? No they didn't...

@williambarkho Ай бұрын

Yes they did!

@sirbarringtonwomblembe4098 Ай бұрын

@@williambarkhoYour faith is almost touching.

@czarcastic1458 Ай бұрын

All tangible evidence is east of the first step. Not hard to believe they never made it past that point. Odell changed his story a few times so anything he says is subject but there is a picture of him pointing to east of the first step where he said he saw them. If he took Nortons route he would have ended up on the NW side of the mountain and nowhere near the 3rd step to be seen.

@ftapon Ай бұрын

I'd like to see that photo. I searched Google images for "odell pointing to everest" and found nothing. Moreover, even if such a photo existed, the camera angle would matter tremendously because the margin of error would increase dramatically if the camera angle was suboptimal. Still, this interview & other evidence make me believe that Mallory probably reached the summit & died on the descent.

@Garde538 Ай бұрын

You cant see the first step from Odell's viewpoint. They were seen just at the third step

@WellyCoaster Ай бұрын

@@ftapon This was a great interview with Robert thank you. The picture is in a Conrad Anker and Wade Davis presentation called Discovering Mallory & Irvine, it's on the youtube video and at the 40 minute 35 second mark. The photo is very clear where he's pointing, but we don't know if he's pointing east of the first step as a sighting. To me it can only either mean that's where he thought he had sighted them or that it was the route they were taking. When it came to which route they were taking Odell said numerous times it was via the ridge route by "following the crest of the NE shoulder". The couloir route which Norton and Somervell took was much lower down than the crest and direct to the couloir.

@czarcastic1458 Ай бұрын

@@Garde538 You don't know where Odell was when he supposedly saw then if he saw them at all.

@kenkaplan3654 Ай бұрын

@@czarcastic1458 Yes we do. See below,.

@adamforshaw973 Ай бұрын

Messner was a professional mountain climber, Mallory and Irvine were mountain climbing hobbyists in comparison. For someone to simply claim that if messner could do it without oxygen, so could Mallory and Irvine seems a stretch especially for a so called mathematician relying on actual data

@ftapon Ай бұрын

That is a fair point, but every year, "climbing hobbyists" with less experience than Mallory summit Everest without oxygen.

@vitanus 51 минут бұрын

calling Mallory that is an insult. Look it up and apologize, unbelievable. What do you think they did in 1924? Walk up the mountain in a suit? They had less information and worse equipment, which makes their achievement even greater. Mallory was an expert climber, in 1924 just as he would be in 2024.

@sheilabloom6735 Ай бұрын

Everest is considered a round-trip. Doesn’t matter if they never descended successfully.

@danielpunisher2982 Ай бұрын

It's a worthless point bc going up is not enough. You need to make it down for it to even count

@ftapon Ай бұрын

Anatoli Boukreev and his team made the first ascent of the south face of Annapurna I in 1997, but he died in an avalanche during the descent. Would you say his climb doesn't count?

@kenkaplan3654 Ай бұрын

@@ftapon Tracy deals with this argument also.

@stewartjohnking Ай бұрын

I keep hearing this argument and it makes no sense to me. So Scott didn't reach the South Pole??

@MakeItSo1111 Ай бұрын

Cliche

@vitanus 50 минут бұрын

says the boy with a punisher logo as icon ...

@roblacitinola866 Ай бұрын

Malory made it- Folks should give him his due... Nobody will ever know for sure, ever, why not give his soul the credit when he likely did make it...Everyone is making an assumption, the fact that he even tried it in that time period, is beyond amazing...The Man's tenacity and spirit, should be an inspiration to all of mankind...

@ftapon Ай бұрын

It's still too early to say, "Nobody will ever know for sure, ever." That's why we're still searching for Irvine's body. Perhaps it has a camera or rocks from the summit that offer irrefutable proof that they reached the summit. Until then, I try not to blindly believe things without evidence.

@philstevens3821 Ай бұрын

@MA-oj8zk Ай бұрын

Michael is doing a reverse engineering only taking facts into account which match his hypotheses, consequently ignoring all other facts. He's telling his story very well - he has to, as that's what he's doing for his living.... - but from a scientific point of view, i would critically consume his stories.

@dukecraig2402 Ай бұрын

@@MA-oj8zk Yep, like everyone else who claims they can prove Mallory and Irvine made it to the top they start out wanting to believe that they did, then they construct whatever kind of narrative and "proof" that they did. Too many experienced climbers have said there's no way they made it, people dismiss the 2nd step and claim "they just went around it", if it was that easy there wouldn't be a permanent ladder on the 2nd step, no one would have bothered with it.

@kenkaplan3654 Ай бұрын

@@MA-oj8zk What *facts* does he leave out? He is beyond thorough. He eviscerates contradictions of others. It's a circumstantial case. From the evidence it is more likely than not they summited. The place where Mallory's body was found is not consistent with an ascent fall due to Odell's citing and the view from where he stood. It IS consistent with a descent in or near dark following the lower ridge line they came from. Mallory was beyond adamant he was not going anywhere near the second step

@fergalohearga9594 Ай бұрын

@@MA-oj8zk Agree totally. To Tracy, it’s his way or the highway.

@AQ.Gimpalong Ай бұрын

@@MA-oj8zk Concur. The only way Michael Tracy can get them within striking distance of the summit is to invent a "Zig-Zag Route" that places them at the base of the third step in time for Odell to spot them. The "Zig-Zag Route" is also a convenient way to deal with the insurmountability of the 2nd step and, again, get Mallory and Irvine in the right place at the right time. That a "Zig-Zag Route" was not clear to Norton (hence his continued traverse to the couloir) and then was not evident to Wager and Wyn-Harris would seem to indicate that such a route was not obvious and may simply not exist. If a "Zig-Zag Route" exists that could be climbed more easily than the modern "Ridge Route" then why is such a route not in use today? Tallying up the existing evidence that can concretely identify where Mallory and Irvine were on the mountain at one time (ice axe, mitten, O2 bottle, Mallory's body, etc.) leads to the unfulfilling conclusion that no one knows exactly which route they took or what their timeline looked like.