As a member of Moash Did Nothing Wrong, a big reason why I joined the community was because of the (surprising) vitriol people had for Moash in the Stormlight Archive community. I almost feel like the name was a jab at the FuckMoash community, rather than something I really believed. That's to say -- I agree with you completely. He definitely did some things wrong, but my absolutely favourite scene in the books is when he is in the Fused camp and realizes that light eyes will always try to dominate. He has this great realization after being treated as a lesser person his whole life. It really resonated with me, which made him one of my favourite characters. But, as Leshwi tells him, he is no longer Moash. He is now Vyre. I'm not sure I'll still find him as compelling now that he has the same super powers as Kaladin. Great video!

I've always seen Elhokar as a victim of Alethi society and a kid in an adult's body, completely driven by how other people surrounding him expected him to act. He was wrong, he wasn't a good ruler, but I can't help but feel he was trying really hard to do things right and he just couldn't. His situation was above his mental skills For those reasons I see Elhokar as a victim, and I can't really blame him for what I said before, he acts as his society has taught him to act and think. And when he tried to be someone better, he failed. When he tries to save his family, he fails. He wasn't good enough. And that's what got him killed Quite a tragic character he is in my opinion

Heard the word ‘hasty’ in the first minute and flashed back to Wheel of Time so quickly

Moash turned his back on Bridge 4, that is my issue.

There is a difference between Kelsier and Moash though and it isn't just charisma and/or "main character/hero" treatment for one and not the other. And that is that Kelsier might have wanted revenge against the Lord Ruler, but also wanted to fight the good fight for the sake of uplifting the skaa. Moash isn't exactly going around helping dark eyes, he isn't even necessarily doing what he does for the singers. He does it for himself and his own revenge and to justify his own opinions and actions up to that point. He doesn't want to look back and address his potential guilt, instead, he gives it up to Odium. Whereas Kelsier, on the other hand, was able to see that there might be some good people on the other side (Elend) but Moash just wants to pretend to be an edge lord cutting stones to and do mind-numbing physical labour to distract himself and believe that he is right and the whole world should just be brought down to the ground.

I really liked Moash BEFORE RHYTHM OF WAY 😭

Damn, that Kelsier comparison was a great point that didn't occur to me. Like everyone, what Moash did hit me hard when reading but I've always had a soft sport for him to be honest. As you said it's all about perspective you see it from! Moash has remorse for what he has done and the fact that he's so numb and compliant towards the end of Oathbringer is rough to read. Regardless I'm glad I've found a fellow Booktuber discussing the Stormlight Archive, I've subbed and am keen to see your other videos :)

This video does an amazing job outlining a lot of my second read through opinions!

Moash didn't deserve vengeance; he deserved justice. Revenge was all he could get.

First, thanks for the video. I have a few perspectives that I'll add. The scene where Moash killed Elhokar totally took me down. I don't view it as a judgment on Moash, though. Let's go back to the words. Elhokar and Moash are on different journeys. Especially after Kaladin identifies Elhokar as Tien, we really want to see him succeed. He's on a journey upward. Moash is taking different forks, and he is on a journey downward. And then those two journeys collide, and tragedy ensues. In fact, the journey metaphor helps understand Moash. He can't get past that one point where Elhokar killed his grandparents. He can't see the journey in which that moment is set.

Hi! Just found your channel on a Twitter thread. I really like your personality and the energy in your videos! I will Subscribe to support another Booktuber! Looking forward to seeing more of your stuff!!

Fascinating idea and discussion of us being in Kaladins head while viewing Moash and how that influenced us. I now see Moash as a more complex character which makes him more interesting, but he still did something wrong.

In addition to your argument of the theme of the books being change and us having spent so much time in Kaladin's head, I think to Words of Radiance and Kaladin swearing the third ideal. In that moment as a reader, I start seeing past what Elokhar has done and start feeling sympathy towards him. In a way, like Kaladin, I put aside my hate towards him and forgive him. So as a reader that makes Elohkar's death by Moash's hand so much more shocking because it is all based upon that revenge that Moash is seeking, which goes against what we just went through with Kaladin in the previous book

Great analysis! I love that I found your video right before rereading SLA for RoW! Unless Brandon is able to give Moash his own Dalinar redemption arc in later books I’m firmly in the f*@k Moash camp for good.

As for the comparison between Kelsier and Moash, I agree that they are quite similar. However there is evidence in my opinion that Moash is as much of a foil to Kelsier as he is to Kaladin (just note Mistborn spoilers to follow). First, Kelsier's treatment of his crew vs Moash in bridge 4. We have Moash parting ways with Bridge 4 because in the end he was willing to fight Kalladin and abandon Bridge 4 to try and get his revenge. Kelsier's lesson to Vin however is all about how you have to trust the crew. He even essentially says that he would still trust the crew even if led to him being betrayed. However we also see Kelsier's love for Vin overide his hatred of all nobility. He SAVES Elend, when he didn't have to and may have been able to survive and escape if hadn't. In some sense this is like Kalladin in that he protected someone he hated because it was right and because Elend was Vin's Tien just like Elohakar was Dalinar's Tien. Second, Kelsier's attitude vs Moash's attitude. Kelsier hit rock bottom in the Pits but decided to smile and be positive instead even though he often didn't feel that way. Moash on the other hand devolved into hating himself and almost everyone. Third, Kelsier is not as focused on revenge. He hates the nobility yes, but it is more similar to Moash's realization that lighteyes will continue to seek and abuse power. Moash still ontop of this or perhaps driving this is his personal grudge against Elohokar. This might be a weaker point, but I think its important to note. Finally, although I said they are similar and are somewhat foils for each other, really Kelsier just has a very different flaw. Kelsier's problem is not about whether he does the right things or isn't actually trying to help make the world better (although Moash in some perverted way wants to do the same but through genocide of humans essentially) it is his pride. Kelsier's pride gets in the way as sometimes its hard for him to differentiate between doing the right thing because its the right thing or because he wants to be remembered and have a legacy (become God). It is possible that Kelsier wouldn't be a hero if the circumstances didn't really require one or if playing the hero wouldn't get him remembered as a hero. We see instances of both, for example saving the skaa may have been less important to him than being known for overthrowing the empire or killing nobles, but saving Elend wasn't about being the hero but because he cared. So Kelsier definitely has issues, but I think they are actually quite different from Moash, who is more about vengeance and a disbelief in redemption (which as you mentioned is one of the biggest themes of Stormlight).

Mannnnnn you make such a very interesting points! I mean, I hate him with a burning passion and I do think he is a BAD person (I will elaborate) but these points are fantastically put out!! But yeah after all I think we shouldn't be that forgiving with Moash (I'm commenting this on this video because I want to exclude the events of RoW because it is clear that Moash is a bad person in that book. But I think the person he was in RoW was the same person he was in Oathbringer and RoW makes easy to point out why he is so bad so I will leave that. Though I will watch the video updated in this later) First of all, yeah Moash is a bad person, and I think the thing that proves that is what he says in Oathbringer and is that he doesn't feel sorry about the things he do. He lets Odium take his pain and he doesn't want to accept the responsibility or feel bad because he is killing and betraying. It is such and expert move because it is in the same book that Dalinar expresses that it's important to take responsibility to be better and make the next step in the right direction. So basically Moash is an Anti-Dalinar if that makes sense. But what I found even more interesting is that the description we got in TWoK and WoR of the first Ideal of the radiant Knights indicates that the desire of Moash to kill Elhokar is not good, Moash opposes to the first Ideal. "Life before death": radiants must protect the life of those who cant protect themselves, also choosing to live as taking the hard path to protect. Moash wants to kill Elhokar, who is defenselessand doesn't want to battle "Strength before weakness": radiants must be strong to (again) protect those who are weak. Elhokar is weak, and instead of protect and help him Moash wants to kill him "Journey before destination": exactly what you said about Moash taking Elhokar's ability to become better Furthermore, I don't think Elhokar was that bad of a person. He had a very strict father (and we know Gavilar didn't treat Jasnah wonderfully so I'd make sense to be that for him to) and I don't deny that the Roshone incident was awful but I think Dalinar said he was partly pressured by society to not punish Roshone excessively. Besides, he DID try to be a good king and Moash killed him while he was PROTECTING HIS SON. AND to the other points. Kaladin didn't betray Moash. And yeah, maybe I'm biased towards Kaladin (most likely) but Moash partly forced him to join his cause. Like in WoR Kaladin said he had ben having trouble to accep hanging out with Bridge Four to drink, and one day Moash convinces him to go to a tabern. Kaladin was having a good time until Moash tells him he only told him to hang out so he could meet with Graves and the people who wanted Elhokar dead. I mean, that makes me ask: how much did Moash really care about Kaladin? Maybe it's just a little stupid moment but idk. And the parshendi thing I obviously admit it was good that he helped them, but honestly that for me is like a good act from a bad person, such as I see Adolin killing Sadeas a bad act from a good person. And besides, Moash says he wants to fight humanity because are all awful but he doesn't know the wonderful people there are lile Dalinar, Navani, Shallan and Renarin!! All because of his prejudices And I think that's all (except for RoW where well... Navani and Teft woudl like to have some things to say). I don't know if he will ever get a redemption but I hope he doesn't. He is far more interesting as a villain and it would feel unearned after everything he's done. I actually think is more likely that we get a Taravangian redemption. Anyway sorry for this looooooooooong message. And sorry if I'm commenting in a lot of videos lately. It's just that I recently discovered this channel and as I just finishe to read RoW i had some thoughts to share. Great video btw!!!!

Side-tracking from your question for a moment: I like Moash is being set up to become Odium’s perfected version of an Anti-Radiant. After being held back for so long, Odium has come to realize that he needs talented individuals to work with him and help fight the Knights of the Radiant. After seeing what happened to Amaram, I think he was a testing point to fuse Voidbringers and humans in a way. The way Moash is isolating himself in some sort of self imposed punishment for all the things he has done is creating a perfect storm for him to become one of the best types of villains out there. The type can agree with and see what led them to make their decisions. All of that is influencing my decision. I believe that Moash did do something wrong. I just believe Moash is wrong in the the way he is torturing himself for not living up to Bridge 4 when he was unknowingly set up for failure when he was gifted the Shardblade and armor. I just don’t know how he could have handled the situation differently after killing the king.

oh i like to listen to you ... even if i don't understand everything, german :) so sweet

Ahhhhh, the Dalinar flashbacks are exactly why i think Moash is a scumbag. Dalinar was a bad leader, did horrible things, and was allowed to grow and learn from it. Moash robbed Elokhar of that character arc because of a misguided notion that Elokhar was directly responsible for his Grandparents' deaths, even though we've seen that Elokhar wasn't even aware of the specifics of the situation. I do feel like Kaladin is Vin and Moash is Kelsier on another world in different circumstances, but like Brandon said, Kelsier is a sociopath. In any other story he would be the villain. Moash doesn't seem to be a sociopath, because he cares for his family enough to have suffered as much as he has, but he is definitely a shitty person for throwing away ALL of the people he cared about for an uninformed murder plot.

I loved this video! I agree, it's all about perspective. In fact, trying to make Elhokar win the reader over had to be very deliberate on Brandon's side to make us feel even worse about what Moash did, otherwise the only reason for us to hate him would be the repercussions of Elhokar's death on Kaladin. I wanna note, however, that even though perspective plays a big part in how we view characters, I don't completely agree with the Kelsier comparison. I'll be honest, maybe it's just because I also really like Kelsier, but I think we can't forget that, although their actions might be similar, their mindsets aren't. Kelsier is highly prejudiced against noblemen like Moash is against lighteyes and they have no problems with killing to reach their goal, but Kelsier is also a character that brings out the best in people, as opposed to Moash. Moash was a terrible influence on Kaladin during WoR, while Kelsier is always actively trying to make people be their best selves and see their own worth. That is more clear with Vin but he does that with the whole crew. And my last point is that we see in Oathbringer that Moash is actively trying to not blame himself. You can tell he still feels bad, but that doesn't matter that much to me since he is still trying to put all the responsibility for his actions on the messed up system he is part of. It's fitting, though, if we think about it, since Oathbringer was about Dalinar owning up to his mistakes. On the other hand, though, I think Kelsier doesn't ever try to pretend to not be responsible for what he does. He has perfect awareness of what he is doing and knows he is doing it because he wants to. Moash not taking responsability gives him the perfect excuse to do whatever he wants to without ever being at fault, at least in his mind. On another note, this is the first video I'm watching of yours and I love your Cap shield in the background!

I was indifferent to Moash killing Elhokar. They were both flawed characters with some redeeming qualities imo. I think many people get caught up in Syl leaving Kal but spren have their own agenda and biases and aren't the benevolent beings they're initially painted as. The parallels to Kel are a good point I didn't consider! I could see Moash having a redemption arc based on his pov chapters I've read so far.

*interesting takes.* i wonder who any of these chrs are. -JC

Moash tried to kill Kaladin. That was what he did wrong. Only a few weeks before Kaladin saved Moash's life from slavery and then he gifted him a full set of Shards to keep forever and Moash thought to repay him by killing Kaladin and then Elhokar and fucking off with Graves and the Diagram. Fuck Moash redemption arc. The only redemption arc I want to see for Moash is him being decapitated by a shardblade named Redemption. Great video. Losds of great points.

Just recently finished Oathbringer and I'm about 200 pages into Rhythm of War. Thanks for the spoiler warning but I'm torn because I want to support your channel but don't want to be spoiled. I guess I'll have to finish Rhythm of War and come back, but my god the Warbreaker tie-ins have me so hyped and I have no place to go!

Did Moash do anything wrong? Yes, he certainly did. I agree with you. He is Kaladin’s foil. We see how Elhokar’s death affects Kaladin because he was unable to protect him. We understand the potential in Elhokar that was lost. So we dislike Moash. But shouldn’t one of our ideals as humans to be to try to understand and empathize with people’s viewpoints we may not readily see? To not simply hate someone because they are the enemy or “the other”? Moash is a man who lost his grandparents to Elhokar. His life was filled with seeing the corruption of nobles. Kaladin who became one of his closest friends agreed with his plan to kill Elhokar, but seemingly changed his mind at the last moment without explanation. Moash then became a slave once more and then empathized with the Parshendi’s cause. He found himself with the opportunity to kill Elhokar and took it, finding his revenge, but feeling empty afterwards. Was what he did wrong? Yes. But does he deserve all the hate he got from the online community at the end of Oathbringer? Certainly not. Would more readers have empathized with him if we had more written from his point of view? Perhaps. Is he deserving of forgiveness and empathy? Absolutely.

Watching this after Rhythm of War…

I didn't really start liking Dahlinar until Oathbringer. Up until them his perspective seemed more like an interruption to me. Of course Moash did something wrong. He betrayed his oaths, friends, and people all for revenge, not Justice. Revenge is always selfish and wrong. His actions in this universe also means that Elohkar never needs to be fully accountable for his actions so he was wrong there too.

I simply see the whole thing as sad, moash has been broken so badly in the past that his minds so warped on vengeance for his family that hes willing to throw away his new found brotherhood/family/bridge four in its persuit, basically losing everything twice. Elhokar is a terrible king and human being if I'm being honest but he's in turmoil with himself to try and be better, frustrated that it comes so easily to kaladin, not knowing that kaladin's traits, although noble are a part of his own ptsd from 'failing' tien. Just as light shines on Elhokar and he begins to say the first ideal, and we as readers think yes! The possibilities! (He could potentially be the greatest radiant character, going off common plot twist practices.) He's ran through by moash.... the devastation was real..... Not just for the elhokar redemption flame being suddenly snuffed out, for kaladin and another tien he couldn't save, and a point of no return for moash..... Its all really sad, there's no better word to explain it in my opinion. 2 potentially noble characters destroyed by one single act of anger and kaladin thrown deeper into his own self hatred and turmoil. I know I'm late to the discussion I've only just found your chanel, awesome video very thought provoking. Thanks

Okay, I've only read up to Oathbringer, and thanks to this video, I have a bit more of an understanding of why people hate Moash. I was confused because he killed a character that nobody liked in the first place, and somehow everyone got mad over it. I thought maybe they hated it because he traumatized a 3-year-old child in the process, which lends the hatred some legitimacy. From my point of view though, it wasn't like he had the option of killing Elhokar when Gav wasn't around, and expecting him to just refrain from revenge was too much to ask, considering what Elhokar did to him. Now I understand though, that the hate isn't so much because of Elhokar directly, and more because of how witnessing it affected Kaladin. Kaladin isn't among my favorite characters anyway, so I hadn't really put a whole lot of thought into his emotional state. I wonder if that's a common thread among people who don't hate Moash?

Great video. I completely missed that he kicked Elhokar’s son Jesus. I think It’s not that Moash did nothing wrong, it’s just that all these other characters like Elhokar, Dalinar, Kaladin and Shallan have also done things that were wrong, and we were willing to turn the other eye and except that they could change. Moash has certainly done some terrible shit, and that’s what makes him perfect for a redemption arc. Redeeming a character that was never truly bad in the first place is always boring to me. I want Brandon to do what George RR Martin did with Jaime. Make people truly hate him without a second thought, and then change their minds

The point you started making from 7 minutes on is REALLY the only reason I don't immediately discredit people that defend Moash. We forgive Dalinar for a lot of what he's done because he's a main POV character and Moash is not. If Moash had as much of a focus as the other characters that we follow/love he would likely have more defenders or fans. We are mostly shown Moash to be an antagonist on purpose and I think his future will be he will do horrible crap, maybe kill someone else, do something "redeemable" toward the end before eventually being killed. Moash's story hasn't gone through any kind of redemption arc or growth the Dalinar has, so currently I'm with the mostly f*ck Moash crew, but I can some of the arguments defending him.

ROW Spoilers This came up in my recommendations (July 31 2021) and I was like uhhh yeah?? Makes more sense before the last book haha

Yes

You make some very good points. I still think Moash did several things wrong, such as kicking Elhokar's son and turning his back on Bridge 4. If Moash's reasoning is that humanity doesn't deserve to live on Roshar anymore, then what about Bridge 4? Should they be killed or kicked off or enslaved as well? One thing I do like about him as a character, though, is that Sanderson is making a complex villain. With Moash we are being brought along on a Villain's Journey, as opposed to the Hero's Journey. Even if he does get a redemption arc, I still don't want to see him become a Radiant, at least not in the front 5 books. That's just a little too forgiving for me, but I would be fine with Moash spending a good amount of time wandering Roshar and atoning for what he's done. Maybe in the back 5 we can see him become a Radiant. IDK how long apart the two halves of the series are set, though, so that last might be wishful thinking.

A notification brought me back to this video, and I have another comment. It's pretty long, so I understand if you don't read it. 😊 I do believe Kal betrayed Moash first but not necessarily the same way you mentioned. I think Kal's betrayal was much, much deeper than just going back on his word and setting Moash up for failure. Kal betrayed him as a friend, and he abused him as a leader from the very beginning. The first time we meet Moash, he has given up, and he is ready to die. Kalidan decides to make an example of him to get the other bridge men to cooperate by punching him. From this moment, Kal is responsible for Moash because he FORCED Moash to do his will. This isn't to say Moash is not accountable for his actions; he is. It's just that Kal deserves a portion of the blame for reasons I will bring up later. This is just the point of origin. Over time, Moash comes to respect Kal and even befriends him. Kal is sort of Moash's moral compass like Syl is for Kalidan. When Moash finally opens up to Kal about El, Kal makes Moash stop. Moash is not happy about it, but he does stop. Here is where the real betrayal begins. Kal learned of what really happened to Moash's grandparents while in prison. When he gets out, Adolin tries to give him a Shard plate, and Kal insists it be given to Moash. When everyone leaves the room, Kal gives Moash the green light to kill El. This alone destroys the "Kal gave Moash plate and see how he repays him" argument. Kal chose his path in prison, away from Moash. It cannot be said that Moash tempted him at his weakest moment. Although Moash hoped Kal would change his mind, Moash had stopped plotting to kill El at that point. Kal gave Moash the plate to kill El. This was 100% all Kalidan's choice. What Kal didn't do in that meeting, and I'm going to say it in caps for emphasis, is TELL MOASH WHAT HE LEARNED ABOUT HIS GRANDPARENTS, nor did he tell him in the weeks leading up to the night of the attempted assassination. That's a terrible thing for a friend to do to another friend. It irritates me how the fandom will f-moash for every little thing, and you never hear a peep about this. After weeks of sulking and almost killing Syl, he finally made the right choice (a good thing). Maybe Moash could have made a more reasonable choice, too, and he wouldn't be where he is now if he had weeks to dwell on the information before he "crossed a line." Kal used the info of Moash's grandparents as an "oh by the way" tactic only when he was trying to manipulate Moash, yet again, into seeing things his way. And how does he open negotiations? By pointing a spear, not in Graves' face, but in his "friends" face. Up to this point, Moash has never once shown aggression towards Kal. Kal has, though, as I've mentioned earlier, and now, he thinks so little of his "friend" that he points a weapon at him. This is where most people say Moash was in shard, and he punched him HARD in it. Yes, he was, and yes, he did, and he immediately felt terrible about it. Moash is a dark eyes. Shade plate is all but unavailable to dark eyes; he doesn't know the full potential of his shard plate yet. People forget that. Vasher has Renarin jumping off cliffs to understand his plate, and he grew up around them. Finally, we come to the ONLY thing, in my opinion, that Moash did wrong toward Kal up to this point. He summons his blade to kill Kal. Personally, I don't think he would have done it had Syl not interfered, not at this point in the story anyway, but I can't prove that. What is interesting, Moash blames everyone and everything for his problems, but he never once blames Kal, the one person he should blame for his problems, because Kal set the foundation on which Moash built the rest of his life on. Another argument I get is that he still killed El after plenty of time dwelling on the info Kal finally give him. Yes, he does. I believe that in Moash's mind, he crossed a line by betraying Kal. You pretty much mention this too. I don't think he thinks he can come back, and once you start down that dark road, you can go miles before finding a place to turn around. Sidenote: some ROW spoilers referenced. People like to think of Moash is the version of Kal that made the wrong decision, and there is some truth to that. But if we are going to view him that way, we need to accept that he feels many of the same depressions that Kal does. I think book four really drives that point home, but the fandom is understandably too upset with him in book 4 to see it. People seem to really sympathize with Kal and his depression and ignore Moash's depression because of the choices they make throughout the story. I think that's a reflection of our society in general. "Why can't you clean your life up like your brother did?" "Mary got off of meth; why do you keep relapsing?" That sort of thing. Moash gets zero sympathies because he can't defeat his demons. Yet, Full-on SPOILERs beyond this point. The fandom is horrified by what that herald is doing to the spren, but they also defend him because he is "broken." Does moash seem all that put together in book 4? And I don't buy that he "wasn't sorry for...you know where im going with that. People lie to themselves all the time when they are struggling to cope. It doesn't matter to me if you like moash or hate him for what he has done. It bothers me that the fandom is nuanced with every other character, many of which have done far worse things, but they don't extend the same nuance to Moash.

While Elhokar might have been self centered and hugely supported the cast system, he is also naive and inexperienced as a king. Don't forget, he's only been king for about six years by the time the plot comes around (I think). He listens to the wrong people which is where his naive trait comes in. In some ways Elhokar is a little too trusting and by listening to the wrong person, Moash's grandparents die as a result. So when you think about it, Elhokar actually wasn't the direct cause of their death, it was the lord who takes over Kaladin's village "(forgot his name). Anyways, my answer to that question is that no, Moash did not deserve to get his revenge and no, he does not deserve to get redeemed. I'm actually kind of eager to see where this puts both him and Kaladin later on in the series. One more thing which might be interesting to consider, is that in a few ways, Kaladin is similar to Elhokar. He's naive (in that he trusted Moash who is as we can see, filled with both anger and hate) and Kaladin believes that what he is doing is right, even if it goes against everything his own father has taught him when he was younger.

It always astounds me how many good citizens of republics suddenly turn monarchist as soon as a friend of Kaladin is involved. And think that a murderer should go free just because he promises to be better in the future. And I am afraid you are avoiding the hard question. Is Moash a traitor to the human race, to put it in old-fashioned terms, or to Kaladin and Bridge Four? And that we are overcoming vengeance, is, well, is Szeth evil? He is a Skybreaker. Is Adolin bad? No, we are not overcoming vengeance in the Stormlight Archive. We may put it into perspective. But then we are putting everything into perspective.

Moash killed teft. None can defend him after that!

The truth is that Kelsier is wrong too. He happened to be on the right side against the Lord Ruler but I think it'll become clear that Kelsier is Wrong in the next era of Mistborn.

Regarding your comment about how Kelsier is so loved of a character... There's a ton about Kelsier that I never liked. Wasn't ever fully on board the Kelsier fan club, there's just too much to dislike. There's way too much that the Ghostbloods do that I hate as well, and he's the founder of that organization. Moash can go to hell. But it would be in character of Sanderson to give him a redemption arc at some point, because many of these characters backstories (dalinar, elokhar) are extremely unlikeable and maybe based on those actions they don't deserve redemption. When Elokhar started saying the words, I was surprised how much I actually craved his redemption and ascension to the knights radiant. Perhaps if Sanderson does a great job, everyone in camp F***Moash can be led back the other direction. I'd currently say that I hope he doesn't have a redemption arc, but Sanderson has redeemed characters I wouldn't have thought could be redeemed, so i'll just RAFO I guess.

I really like Moash's character. I won’t deny that. Just a few points though Moash didn't kick Gavinor. That is an exaggeration by the F moash community. Secondly I have a problem with the whole notion that Elhokar was trying to improve. He was not malicious, that I can see. But its written explicitly in the text that "he let Moash'd grandparents rot in the jail and delayed the trial, as he knew that they would die and hence that would save him". He effectively killed them because he was a selfish king. Secondly when did Elhokar attempt to change? He "wishes to change". But he never tried. That is a big difference. All he did was cry to Kaladin in the wagon scene when he was DRUNK. That doesn't mean anything. Secondly did he even give two shits about his wife executing an ardent unjustly? No. The only thought he has is - my wife did it coz of the spren. Does that count as man who is trying to change? What he has is wishful thinking. That doesn't mean he is "trying". Its a big big difference. Why people equate that to trying is coz of Kaladin Pov where he says he is trying. Sanderson is essentially forcing us to see Elhokar as sympathetic where none of his actions actually show he is trying. I would love to hear your thoughts. I think Moash hate is a problem of Pov. We see so much of his action through the lens of Kaladin and others who he is opposing, that it blinds us to his side.

I'm also a fan of calling it storm moash, instead of fuck moash because i feel like it bothers the hardcore trolls over at storm moash.

I am in the moash did nothing wrong crowd almost exclusively because of the storm moash crowd. They are toxic, not interested in talking about the nuance and do a good job maring what is a very well written character. Nothing in the storm light archives can equivivolly be said to be completely good or bad (from the big picture view, obviously each team has its own "heros"), it reflects the real world. "Storm Moash" is just a knee jerk reaction turned into a hateful meme where the community is ok flaming anyone who disagrees with them. Not to mention the storm Moash crowd literally wrote a bot to spam the words all over reddit, it's not about being right or wrong for them, it's about the memes, and for that I cannot stand with them.

Ok so first of all Fu** Moash lol. Tbh I don't really care about Elhokar (I mean the abrupt ending to his redemption arc hurt but i didn't love him at any point in the books). I only have Moash because of his view on life I guess? And the way he treats Kal. The salute after he kills Elhokar is much more disrespectful to Kal then just the killing. Aside from that the early release ROW chapters have a Moash scene that'll be really hard to defend for his fans.

Muck Foash

Nope, nope Moash definitely did something wrong and those points can all be broken down😕

Yes. Moash did something wrong. He's decided that the humans do not deserve Roshar; however, instead of killing himself so there is one less human for the Singers to fight and conquer, he decided that he would work against humanity for Odium. To that end, he killed Jezrien in cold blood. Unlike Kelsier, who was fighting to overthrow a dictator and give power to the Skaa, Moash has thrown his lot in with a dictator.

Moash is worse than Umbridge.

Of course Moash is a bad person. It's tedious and annoying to even have a conversation about it. Stormlight badly need more human enemies to hate, trying to add some grey area to Moash is not only wrong but weakens the plot.