Great to hear Nick's views on North and South. You should have him more often on the reviews. Great analysis all round.

I just finished north and south for the first time I read it on a whim and had no idea what it was about. I now have one of the biggest book hangovers ever. I can't seem to break my mind away from the characters and the world so thank you for this very therapeutic and informative I wasn't aware of alot of the deeper analysis your made me appreciate this book so much more.

Absolutely loved your podcast. North and South by E. Gaskell it is my all time favourite novel and I have read and re-read the book numerous times You had Margaret pegged, she exhibited a bit of arrogance. I loved your analysis of the characters and many a time wholeheartedly agreed. Thank you for that wonderful podcast you really did give it your best and I loved watching it. Please continue touching of some of the classic books on great literature. Thanks again.

I love Margaret's character development, and the fact that she is WILLING to grow and change her mind and learn new perspectives. She grew up pretty sheltered, and then she is expanding her horizons and discovering her true strength. It's brilliant! I adore Margaret. She feels so real because of her faults and mistakes. I love that she is a good person, but she's not an angel. When Margaret goes back to Helstone and realizes the South is not the paradise that she remembered, I think it is also her realizing that her childhood was not the paradise she remembers. (I think she feels like her childhood was an illusion based on her father's "mistaken" church doctrines. Nothing about Helstone or her former life feels real or solid anymore.) It's the moment when she releases her childhood, forgives her father, and becomes an adult emotionally and mentally. That's just my own imagination really, but I think it fits. The fact that you can talk about the intricacies of this one book for an hour just shows how brilliantly complex and engaging the characters and plot and writing and themes are. There is so much to unpack, and I love that some of the story is left a little unclear, so that we can interpret it in our own way and guess at the motivations of the characters. One of the themes I love in N&S is the exploration of death and grief. It's heart-wrenching but also beautiful because of the way that faith in God is intertwined with thoughts of death. I love your insights on the different approaches to death in the book, either very quick or drawn-out. It's also interesting to contemplate how different characters react. A tough theme, but beautifully handled in the writing. I think the Thorntons are such interesting characters. They have this hard outer shell, but underneath there is a raging river of emotion. It's so fascinating to gradually get to know them through the narrative. Their dialogue is priceless! They always surprise me; like a puzzle I want to figure out. The Higgins have my heart. 'Nuff said.

Thank you for discussing Mr. Hale's religious question, because as a 1) American and 2) Jewish atheist I honestly had no idea what the whole dissenter issue was about and couldn't find much information online to explain it. I found it curious that Mr. Hale expected them to be social outcasts in the South once he left the Church, but in the North it didn't seem to be much of an issue. And then Margaret is never treated as an outcast when she returns. I don't know whether that is a comment on the different approaches to religion in the different regions, or whether Gaskell just changed her mind about how to write about it.

After reading all the Bronte's novels and Austen's recently I have now started on Gaskell. Very interesting to read North and South, a very powerful novel, quite amazing in its commentary on the rise of industrialisation. Certainly in my mind at least the equal of anything written by Austen or the Brontes. In terms of social comment and painting a wider cross section of the rich and poor is miles ahead.

Loving this discussion! :)

This was so enjoyable! I love how in depth you guys went. In response to the situation with Margaret not telling her father that her mother was dying I would offer that people had this idea that if one received too great a shock it could kill them. This is discussed in other classics where people prefer to let the sad knowledge come on their loved ones more gradually.

Wonderful discussion. More please !

I am re-reading it at the moment 😀

Loved this !! I am definitely going to have to reread North and South in the near future after watching this very comprehensive dissection. Many thanks 🤗

I've seen the movie, but your discussion has made me want to read the book. Thanks.

I think Nick needs to read it more than once to see the nuances in Margarets character. Like you Kate I have read this book multiple times and I really feel like I relate to Margaret and upon each reading I find her more endearing. My mum read it upon my recommendation and she felt Margaret was awful and in no way could compare to Elizabeth Bennet. I feel many people go into this book looking for Darcy/ Elizabeth story and chararcterization and although the stories are similar this book stands on its own in its own way. I feel Margaret's growth in this book. She is slightly self absorbed and a tad abrasive but I still love her.

Loved to hear you both discuss North and South. Nick definitely had some strong opinions, but I agree with Katie and really love Margaret. I hope to see you do more discussions together.

I really enjoyed this discussion. I thought what Nick said about Margaret and how she agonized over a lie but wasn’t so concerned about a murder says a lot. I just didn’t think about that!

Wonderful discussion! I read the book in 2009 and it was so-so for me. But I just finished listening to the audiobook (Juliet Stevenson) and it felt like a completely new novel! I loved it, except for, as Nick notes, Thornton's "Margaret!" at the end of the book.:) I disagree with Nick that Margaret is "evil" but I do agree with him that we don't experience Margaret changing in the same way as Mr. Thornton. Mr. Thornton gradually shifts his views, and we know this when he explains to others about his relationship with Higgins and the hands toward the end of the book. Margaret's changes toward Milton and trade aren't clearly expressed by her or even in her thoughts, but I think her actions (towards Milton people, with Mrs Thornton, investing in the mill) demonstrate that she has come a long way. One of my favorite characters was Mr. Bell--some much needed humor in just the right part of the book. Also I felt that "the North" and "the South" are sort of characters in this book, too. Thanks again for a lively discussion. P.S.--I actually liked the slow pace of the audiobook; it made it feel more like a play and Stevenson brings out all the nuances of meaning, especially in conversation and dialect. Besides, I wanted it to last forever!

I just found this, as I have reread North and South and became slightly obsessed with it. I enjoyed your discussion, and thanks for thinking about Fred and the ramifications of that storyline. I was very frustrated that it was not brought to more of a resolution with and explanation between John Thornton and Margaret Hale in the novel. I agree she has some questions to answer, but, of course, if she were known to be out after dark with a man, it could mean real ruin for her, not just a bit of gossip. I think we don't realise that in the modern day as it has become so culturally alien. thanks too for talking about the amount of bereavement Margaret goes through in this novel. I was overwhelmed with it on this reread - and I really liked how Gaskell depicted the physical impact on her. I think when I read it 20 odd years ago, I thought of that as rather Victorian missishness, but, having lived through more tragic life effects, I admired her depiction of them in the novel (for Thornton, too). It really is a story with so much in it.

Such a wonderful discussion; thanks to you both 🍁

Really added to my reflections on the book, thank you!

This was so interesting!!! Just finished North and South so was so great to hear both of your thoughts!

This is my favorite book discussion site! I too am a great lover of Victotian literature and am delighted I just discovered it. The lengthy discussion of Elizabeth Gaskell was inspiring and I enjoyed hearing differing points of view and character analyses from Katie and Nick. The contrast is illuminating. Mrs. Gaskell is probably my favorite 19th century writer but I hadn't really thought of all the reasons until I listened today. I love your responses and your enthusiasm! Is there a discussion of George Eliot that I can watch or look forward to?

Totally agreed with your rating of North and South - interesting to the core and Agreed Pride and Prejudice is polished as you said. I don’t have to say it again but your analysis is spot on I couldn’t help thumbing my assent every moment I agreed with you which was more often than not. Just a point correct me if I am wrong the serialized version was part of Charles Dickens paper hence the abridging of the end of N&S which was forced to be concluded as per Mr. Dickens instructions. Did you get that feeling of the very short conclusion the end came to? Do clarify! Thank you so much. Looking forward to your discussion on Mansfield Park!

Wow, I just finished reading this book because of your recommendation. I really like the book, only feel so sorry that at the end of the book, so many people died. I think the mother died for a firm reason, then why the father died only after several pages and then the god father.

On my TV screen I am finishing watching your short video on North and South. I can’t seem to access that one here on my phone at present. All I can say is you say a heck of a lot of good stuff about this novel. I must, absolutely must read it!

I'm currently reading north and south enjoying it very much excited to finish it and then watch this video🙃

I really enjoyed this. I’m about half way through my third read, so the timing is perfect. I agree with Nick in tha book is very interesting. I wasn’t aware of the labor unrest in England until I read this book. I agree with Katie (and Nick) in that Margaret seems like a real person because she’s makes mistakes, and isn’t perfect. The contrast between Fanny and Margaret was interesting. Obviously Fanny does not have the strength of character shown by Mrs. Thornton and Margaret. Thank you both for this detailed discussion of one of my favorite books..

Enjoying your discussion, tho I'll need to watch it in two or more parts. I can see why unpacking prejudice links up with a massive change of heart but maybe it's less clear how it connects to the character of a parson's daughter who doesn't inform her father her mother is dying.

Great discussion, I must reread north and south soon.

This is so fascinating - I just read North and South last month for the first time (also with the Juliet Stevenson audiobook, which I really liked!) so all this is so fresh in my mind, and you both bring up so many interesting points I hadn't thought about! And I LOVE Nick's comparison of P&P and N&S as a still live vs a sprawling mural 😂

I didn't think Margaret is evil but now, I'll have to (happily) re-read the novel ! Great video, very fun and very interesting !

I love Nick's skepticism about Frederick's supposed innocence. Even the story that he tells sounds like a rather strict Captain taking it a step too far. Not a justification for mutiny. What also struck me is the family's total adoration and complete faith in Frederick. His mother even says at one point how everyone who met Frederick loved him. She sounds like a totally deluded parent. It's obvious that she, her husband and her maid all doted on Frederick and let him do whatever he pleased. To be honest, he sounds a bit like a really spoilt little princeling who went to sea and wasn't able to cope with the harshness of the navy or accept authority. With regard to Nick's take on Margaret's character, at no point does he seem to take into account how education and youth. It's perfectly natural for a posh, sheltered 18-year-old to have a simplistic understanding of economic issues, a patronising attitude towards those lower than her in the social hierarchy, and other character flaws that will fade or disappear with time and maturity.

I love your discussions so much!! Many, many, many thanks! Few words in defense of Margaret. On inexcusability of Margaret's not telling her father that her mother is dying. The first thing there to me is, her mother herself didn't want either of them to know (I can understand that 'cause I'm very irritated myself at being pitied when I'm sick). But Margaret managed to notice that sth's wrong and contrived to bring a doctor to see her and catch him afterwards to get the result. Not Mr Hale. Mr Hale put his daughter between his wife and himself when, not being able to tell her that he's 'quitting his job' at church and they're going to move out, made Margaret do so (oh, Mr Harding from The Warden!). That's what made her to think that her father is weak. Not that she's so strong. Being in that place, It would be horrible to give in reply 'Dear father, you killed my mother!" Also, I think she just needed some time to think it over and get some place for her feelings, because in the end so far as I can remember it was Margaret who told him about that. I feel I'm being a bit harsh to Mr. Hale, but you know he never even asked where his wife and daughter would have liked to live. Mr Harding here works as some kind of a bridge between me and Mr Hale :) On Margaret's reacting indifferent to the idea that her brother might have killed smo which I was also struck by. I happened to read The picture of Dorian Grey and The Moonstone before I read N&S. And there, a murder of another man creature seems to be the last and greatest uncommitted sin crowning all his other sins in the former case; and of the latter case, committing murder of seemingly 'some Indian people during some attack there' seems to be the reason of banishing the murderer from his family (clumsy wording, I'm sorry for that, English is my 3rd lang). I don't know where to place young Mr Hale here. And Margaret. It's really an interesting question - cultural shift from understanding killing as a man's business (crusades, knights and duels, you know) to it being immoral, illegal (both at the same time with centralization of power???? because again army and state's monopoly on violence - General Shaw and Frederick also in Navy - can that be not justifiably but understandably a defense of Margaret?). If you could recommend some kind of analysis or other booktubers talking about it I would be very grateful indeed! I loved listening to this video! And looking forward to your next discussions!

Loved this discussion! Nick brought up so many interesting points!! Being a Liar in the Victorian period seems to be worse than a murder. I always remember the scene in Jane Eyre in the school where she is deemed a Liar and is shamed by the whole school and becomes a pariah. Haha Nick doing a Dr Claw impression when talking about the audiobook narration 🤣Also I think I remember hearing that Gaskell was a full pantser when it came to her plots, which is why we only know the ending of Wives and Daughters based on what she told people would happen, as well as being a procrastinator and waiting till just before the section was due.

This was such an interesting video, I didn't mind its length at all! I have to say I agree with Nick more, I thought N&S was such an interesting novel but in the end I had mixed feelings about it because I didn't really like Margaret although I did try to understand her and sometimes I felt really sorry for her (especially when I realised that everyone around her had died). And I don't mind unlikable characters in novels but I didn't feel that she was supposed to be such a character and yet I was so frustrated with her many times.

I'm surprised that you both like Henry Lennox, Nick even counting him amongst his favourite characters. I mostly find him bitter, dry and immensely pragmatic, and he also seems to lack the 'tender heart' that is ascribed to Mr Thornton. Personally I don't like him very much. Do you think Margaret would have accepted him if he had proposed again (if, of course, the plot line with Mr Thornton in the end didn't happen)? I actually think she wouldn't - or at least I would have been very much surprised if she had. But maybe I don't do him justice... Anyway, I really enjoyed listening to your discussion. Thanks for that!

I loved this so interesting the pride and Prejudice or North and south question is just too hard 😂 both occupy a special place in my heart. I really did not get on with Withering heights probably my least favourite classic along with Middle march: middlemarch was meh whereas WH ended up making my blood boil!!

"Northern people have souls" lol

Amazing conversation! I haven't read the book yet.

Loved this discussion! I completely agree with ye about the Frederick situation - I’m always a bit in uncomfortable with the way that panned out, smells like a bit of a cover up by those who have the influence to do so when the victim was of the lower classes! Also re Gaskells opinion of the Irish she blows hot and cold, like the points ye mention re Boucher and Catholicism, also she seems sympathetic to the situation the “starvlings” left at home while later being quite hard on their incompetence working in the mills... North and South is such a good book though, so much to unpack!

I’m reading North and South. I like it a lot. I have two reservations. Mr. Hale’s decision to leave his job and home is glossed over, and the second scene with Margaret and the sick girl is didactic. The point was made in the first scene in the girl’s home.

I agree with Nick about Margaret! I didn't like her much either. Are Gaskell's protagonists in her other novels similar?

I can totally agree with Nick's point of view about Margaret. I didn't like her either (despite the fact I love the book).

"I think that's just wrong though!" Haha. I don't think Margaret is evil - I think it's to do with Victorian thinking on illness and dying. It was generally thought best if only a trusted nurse and maybe one family member knew what was going on for as long as possible, often the sick person wasn't even supposed to know. So it's another sign of Margaret's strength that she is the one who knows, whereas Mr Hale seems to make his own decision in a way by not asking. That's why Bessy's openness about her illness in a way shocks Margaret, but it comes across as refreshing and a better approach. I think one of the questions Gaskell is asking is about whether it is better not to know. With regard to the murder, Margaret was there so I think she feels less concerned because she saw the event and knows it was not an intended injury. But it possibly deserved more consideration nonetheless.

I have to admit that North and South is my least favorite Gaskell novel (so far), so I'm pretty sympathetic to Nick's perspective here. It's one thing to show characters overcoming prejudices, but I did not like at all the 'love story' between Margaret and the man directly responsible for the exploitation and death of a vulnerable young woman (and her friend). In fact I did not love either of these characters. I don't think Margaret Hale is a 'bad person,' but she is no Molly Gibson!

Really enjoyed this, love videos with Nick, he brings up a lot of great points, but what's he doing not speeding up audiobooks? Audiobooks are usual read at a deliberately slow pace to be clear, so they're basically intended to be sped up. I read this at the start of the month, just after I finished Germinal by Zola; and that was a great comparison, what each author picked to focus on. The question of union corruption is a great example, Zola just hinted and Gaskell didn't. The books are very similar, but very different. Do you follow Ange with an E? Have you seen her conspiracy on North and South? If not check it out, it's hilarious, I'll link it in a reply.

Ok, back (sorry about the double post): Whilst I agree that thinking about death and dying may be a transformative experience, I much prefer an approach like Austen's where the central focus is on the perpetuation of the race through marriage. IMO we think too much about what comes after and not enough about the here and the now.

I'm glad other people also found Margaret not so likeable. I loved North and South and Gaskell's writing but as the chapters focused on Margaret around the end it made it really hard for me to keep reading. She did not deserve Mr Thornton 😡

LOL Wait!!! What!!?? Not like Margaret??? Okay.....back to the video.....

I haven’t watched your video yet because I’m just over half way through reading it. I read Mothers and Daughters and really loved it despite some long winded patches that I skipped over. I realise these books are not written as novels but as serials. I was looking forward to reading North and South because I’ve heard it is the better. Oh, how disappointed I am! I don’t really find the subject matter of industrial disputes interesting at all and those conversations long winded and boring. I find Margaret and her family annoying especially the father who uproots the family from a home where they are happy and forces them to go to this awful industrial city. I’ll persevere to the end ...let’s hope it improves.

Finally finished. I didn’t like it at all. Some melodramatic parts I actually laughed out loud it was so ridiculous. The book needed a good editor! I liked the fact that I hung on to the end to see who she ended up with, Thornton or Lennox. She only invested in Thornton’s business because she fancied him. I didn’t like her much at all. The only character I liked at all was Mr. Bell. Starting on Trollope now...