Welcome, All. One more winger video. I had to. Hopefully, you'll see why.

To me, Winger's response depicts an abusive relationship. No matter what happens, or how the "relationship with god" has gone wrong, it's always the fallible human's fault.. Not only can a perfect god not be blamed for anything, but the very act of blaming him is yet another sin. It's like locking a child in a room, then blaming the lack of affection on the child for not trying hard enough to break out of the room.

Mike Winger is so interesting, he tries so hard to come across and kind and caring in his tone and demeanor while saying some of the more horrific and terrible things. His mental gymnastic abilities are gold medal level.

Winger's not trying to explain God's propensity for hide and seek, he's excusing it.

I don't search for a god. I search for truth. So far, there is no evidence for the truth of any gods.

I had health issues that lasted for years. I was in pain at night lying in bed and asking god for anything to help. Complete silence. I would have gotten the same amount of help or acknowledgement if I had prayed to a rock. I was convinced to go be anointed with oil by my pastor and when it didn't work I was told that if I had believed that it would have worked it would have fixed me. Blame the victim mentality is strong in the cult. It was completely toxic.

It makes me want to say, “Stop hiding behind your creation and reveal yourself if you want more people to believe in you.”

"Why does god reveal himself to some people, but not others" Exactly

Divine hiddenness was the nail in the coffin for me (started with being told about a literal global flood, went through being unable to reconcile the hippy NT god with the brutal OT god, finding out about the lack of unity in Christianity to the point of centuries of bloody warfare and then when I prayed for any kind of sign, I got nothing and realized I was talking to myself). Reading the OT about how God wasn't shy to appear constantly, as a burning bush, flaming pillar, old man, voice from the sky or sending angelic messengers. He granted his favorites magical powers, including giving Elijah the ability to do miracles on demand for the purpose of proving God exists... and yet we see nothing of the sort outside of those stories. This rubbish about us somehow blocking God, just makes me wonder if they actually think He is all-powerful. If He was then there is nothing, I could do to stop Him from getting what He wants. Paul wasn't seeking and yet was convinced, so apparently that isn't even a requirement. If He wants everyone to know Him, and wants a personal relationship with everyone, then He would have it. He doesn't, so either He can't or won't, either way conflicts with what is being claimed.

this argument of Mike's has big "how dare you bring a knife to a knife fight?" energy. imagine trying to tell Mike that he's not allowed to talk about HIS personal beliefs and experiences

Great job again Brandon! Don’t let these guys off the hook, they deserve the scrutiny that you and others give these people. The insanity of religion needs to be put in it’s proper place, the dust bin of history!

I'm reminded of that movie The Grey, when Ottway looks up at the sky and says, "Show me something real. F*ck faith; I need it now!" I think a lot of us can relate to that.

Responding to Winger is appreciated as long as you can stomach it. I've watched with dismay the growth of his channel. His presentation sounds calm and measured, while becoming increasingly toxic in its portrayal of anyone questioning any aspect of his concept of Christianity. He also has no problem claiming knowledge regarding forms of Christianity that aren't his.

I rejected Christianity as false over 30 years ago after believing my entire life and even studying for the ministry.. Even though I left Christianity 31 years ago, I'm sincerely open to a god being real if he would simply reveal himself to me in a way that is convincing. Surely he would know how to do that. And he would know I'm sincere. . I seek truth. If god is true, I'm open. 64 years and all I have seen is people sincerely believing on bad evidence, emotion, and hearsay. , myself included until I was33. Never anything real, substantial, or substantive. Just emotions.

Don’t forget……god only gets credit for the GOOD stuff. Everything else is OUR fault. When the imaginary man in your head has THAT kind of advantage, it’s a win-win. I’m stealing some of your points btw. Another excellent video!

This is what religion does to somebody. They simply can't step outside of their religious box.

I'm 42. I've spent my entire life deeply deeply deeply yearning for God, thinking about God, putting God at the center of my heart and thinking of Him countless times per day (and still intend to cling to my often-feeble faith forever). I've also spent my whole life wrestling with doubt, and everytime another believer questions my sincerity, when I've literally cried my eyes out for God to show me He's real many many many times, that person is basically slamming the door shut to me ever taking their spiritual advice seriously. It's very hard to offend me, but that ignorant dismissal SERIOUSLY offends me. I often doubt they can even fathom the level of sincerity it takes to walk in my shoes on this. For people like that, it apparently comes too easy.

My wife and I had two children and we never abandoned or hid ourselves from them because we love them. Why then does a all powerful god that supposedly created us that Christians claim is a loving heavenly father abandoned and hide from us? Makes no sense to me.

There's nothing I would love more than to have a relationship with a truly loving and sensible god.

This was great! My issue is if the believers are gonna accuse non believers that they must be doing some level of resistance to maintain nonbelief. Couldn't the nonbeliever flip the script on the believers that they must be doing some level of resistance to maintain faith? This is the problem when we try to psychoanalyze each other beyond what people are presenting rather than take each other at their word.

Out of the countless 'atheist' channels I'm subscribed to it's your channel that I would like to see growing faster the most 🤗

It’s so great to see your sub count go up, every time we click on your videos. Well deserved and looking forward to your growth.

Everything about the videos on this channel tells me that you were a Christian through and through, even down to the music you chose and how it's used. There's no doubt in my mind that you spent a great deal of your lifetime 100% "in the faith." This deconstruction looks to me like an honest search for truth and basic understanding that can't be found in the supernatural. Deconstruction can be a painful process. It's almost never done by choice if you stop to really listen.

As someone who was once a believer, I find his premise to be incredibly insulting. I looked long and hard for a shred of evidence for divinity. I was in their education system for a few years so I knew what to look for, and in those places I found that scientific observation didn't support the notions. I was very faithful. How dare somebody like him question so many who were so devoted and chalk it up to "You just weren't trying hard enough".

If god has the desire and the superior resources to ensure each and every one of us gets saved, it’s on him to accomplish it.

I love how Mike personally attacks atheists as his "defense" against the divide hiddenness argument, and then tries to insulate himself from being called out for it by making fun of the people he's attacking for presumably objecting to his attack.

You are very logical and coherent. I wish I found you in 1962. Now at 71 years of age, I don't know what to do with your illumination of reality.

Mike's parents made him so intensely terrified of hell that he has literally no chance of ever seeing the truth. He will make excuses for his imaginary friend until the day he dies 😅

On this one, I fundamentally and viscerally agree with you 100%, Brandon. Winger’s argument is so insulting as to be infuriating. Like you, I was a Christian for 30 years, and I take those arguments quite personally.

Something that hit me recently... Why would it even be necessary to seek god? If he's so loving and wants a relationship, you'd think he'd make himself known from the moment I was able to comprehend?

First time seeing you in my feed. Mere minutes in and I'm already subbed. You're doing good work! Cheers.

“He’s allowed me to even pull people away from the faith, because his ‘plan’ is greater…” 😂😂😂

Thank you very much for making this rebuttal video. I agree with your defence. My commitment is to the whole truth about all of reality. My commitment is not to religious books which claim to tell the truth while being full of lies.

I've been playing hide and seek with God for over two decades. It's fair to say he is still winning. 😄 Though I sought him, I couldn't find him, and had to give up the search for my own sake! I wasn't living my life at all!

Glad I stumbled on your channel ! I am a Christian, and many times I have struggled with my relationship with God. Consistentcy in how Christians deal with each other, and those that do not believe in God has always been a frustration for me. I appreciate how you approach each of your react vids that I have seen so far. Keep up the good work you are doing.

This video was on Prophet of Zod’s feed and it led me to start following you. I love your arguments! Very well thought out

Another bottle of Winger's Weaksauce. An important problem I didn't find mentioned is the alleged case of Doubting Thomas. Thomas supposedly got to witness Jesus performing real magical miracles and still doubted, and was in the story given evidence by chatting with and touching Jesus. If Jesus is really alive it'd be just and consistent to give the same evidence to all of us. As you said, there's the problem with verses that claim Jesus loves the world, came to save it, and wants a relationship with as many people as possible. Ascending into the clouds and being hidden is the exact opposite of what he'd need to do to achieve that goal. The only good answer is that Jesus is still dead, but apologists can't have that.

This is my first time watching your channel and i must say im very impressed. I really admire the way you think and also explain arguments so that its easy to follow. Thank you very much keep up the good work

so good, man! You had wonderful points to each of his objections.

Cool video! Even over a decade later after I considered myself to be an atheist, I've loved finding and watching videos like this! ❤ I'm subscribing!

The primary aspect of divine hiddenness for me is the juxtaposition between Christian claims of God's omnibenevolence, God's degree of caring about my beliefs surrounding him, and the horrid degree of my punishment for honestly not knowing if he exists.

It just reminds me of Linus, searching for a "sincere" pumpkin patch. " Nothing but sincerity as far as the eye can see..." And just wait until next year, he'll find a pumpkin patch that is real sincere. Because of course the Great Pumpkin never showed up. How could a pumpkin patch not be sincere anyway? Would there be a few butternut squash vines mixed in among the pumpkins? Sheesh

My deconversion took way more than three years. I feel so fortunate to have gotten free from my obsession with god at all. Being brought up to be a believer sucks!

That's the problem! I have sincerely looked for god thru several religions and never found him. Why do we have to search for god? If god is real why does he have to be searched for? It's like looking for an answer to an unknown/hidden question, a god is not necessary for a meaningful loving life!

I once had a friend make the argument "Just because you haven't seen God doesn't mean he doesn't exist. Have you ever seen a billion dollars?" She disregarded that we can all see physical money, so it's not far-fetched to think a billion $1 bills exist. The other difference is that money (and every other great mystery) isn't backed by an all-powerful intelligent being. It's hard for me to "prove" the existence of one billion dollars unless I am a billionaire but that doesn't mean there's not evidence for it. I can ask an intelligent and divine being to show himself to prove his existence. I can't do the same to a billion dollars. (Though, if a billion dollars wanted to show up to my front doorstep, I would happily accept.)

Great channel! Awesome content! Your De-conversion story helped me a lot. Keep it up, as I know you will!! Thanks a million!

let's debunk this right now, jesus says you can have whatever you want if you just believe and ask for it in his name it will be given you... So pray that this atheist hears the Lords voice in his head right now, so that he may know you exist, and be saved. Seems legit right, if I heard a voice in my head saying "kneel before Zod" I would probably kneel before Zod, but after a few minutes of absolute silence, the jig would be up, and another fraud would walk away sad, or accuse me of lying, saying that I really had heard the voice, I just didn't want to admit it.

"reaping the blindness of our own decisions" this is what a pretzel sounds like

Just came here from Prophet of Zod and I wasn't disappointed. Great video.

First time viewer here and I have subscribed! This is a very serious problem for believers so I am not surprised that the typical response is to impute insincerity. While it is true that other more philosophical or theological arguments are possible I think what is going on here is an emotional response to having their defense against existential anxiety being subjected to questioning. I appreciate that this be characterised as me ascribing a psychological motivation just as the apologists are doing - there is some truth in that I guess but that's a whole other story. However as Mindshift points out, no-one can know another's thoughts as well as the person themselves so ascribing non-belief to insincerity, the desire to sin etc etc is definitely a form of mental violence - it denies the non-believer's validity as a person. If this was done within a family by a parent, it would be potentially damaging to a child's mental health. As adults we can (more or less) react with justifiable exasperation and outrage and be grateful that apologists have no real power.

You are putting into words, a lot of things I’ve thought growing up as an evangelical Christian. (I’m an atheist now but still) You’re awesome!

This channel fucking blows my mind. You are succinctly articulating the imaginary conversations I have in my head all day for why I’m exvangelical, agnostic, leaning atheist. It’s cool to see these arguments and thoughts spoken aloud.

Great rebuttal video, and I appreciate all your honesty thank you.

I’ve personally heard dozens of testimonies of people who said “I wasn’t seeking god, I wanted nothing to do with god, church, religion…but god chose me to reveal himself”. How does that track with the “sincerity “ requirement?

Hell yea over 1k already! You deserve it bro 👊🏾

Count me among those who would like to see a conversation between you and Mike Winger. :) Regarding the sincerity argument, and admittedly it is one I used myself as a believer, it is really convenient because it is something that is impossible to either prove or disprove. Only an individual can know their own sincerity, no one can know the sincerity of another. But, as you say, if we are to consider the testimony of those who claim to have been witness to the God through their sincerity, then we must also give equal weight to those who claim to be sincere but have not seen God, because we cannot truly know what is in either of their hearts. And with that, let me too be an example of someone who was sincere. I was raised in the church, I debated atheists all the time hoping to lead them to God. My desire was always to find God. I absolutely believed God was real, and why wouldn't I? I was constantly told it as a child. It was drilled into my head. I genuinely feared any reality where this was not the case and this led me to employ a selective bias in the information I would allow myself to absorb. All of this information was biased in such a way as to reenforce my belief in God. I could not have been farther from his example of an atheist trying to disprove God. I WAS TRYING TO PROVE HIM! And just like you, my deconversion was slow, it was painful, I did not want it. And even to this day, I have no desire to lead people away from Christianity... such an act still feels wrong to me. Though that is finally starting to change as I begin to see more and more clearly the damage done by the indoctrination of the church. Can you imagine a society where we can write off a person as being evil simply because they do not believe in the same God? After all, we know that that God only reveals Himself to those who are sincere, right? Imagine how easily we could just ignore and legitimize all their suffering in such a world... Imagine that...

These Mike Winger response videos are gold

I was sincere in trying to have a relationship with God. I believed absolutely 100% and was raised Christian, I just never found what I was searching for. I had faith and would have called myself a believer, I really thought he listened to my prayers and cared. Maybe God just doesn't want a relationship with me, but one thing is for certain, God is great at hiding.

He’s not really a low hanging fruit as you say Brandon. He’s got a large audience and his beliefs have consequences. I say to keep challenging then man

Believers are always looking for reasons to blame the non-believers because they cannot accept any notion of a flaw/mistake/conflict/error in their perception of a god. For them, having their image of god shattered is their worst nightmare. So of course it must be us because it simply can’t be their god! I wonder why some people need so much to cling to a fantasy while others can find peace, even happiness without it? 🤷🏼‍♀️

Divine Hiddenness was the major thing that caused me to reject the whole idea of Christianity, and all religions for that matter, as a child. I can remember asking my mother at about age 7 or 8 why god didn't just show himself, and got the standard non-answers "you just have to have faith" or "god works in mysterious ways". And yes if you read the Bible, god is quite visible in many stories, lived among the people for 33 years, then poof disappears, MIA now for 2000 years. So yea something that doesn't exist would be invisible!

I'm a Christian, but I appreciate your perspective on this. well done on the video!

Hello! Just found this video, haven't watched much yet, but wanted to say that I love the captions you put on your video!

A major issue for me is that those who allegedly have a personal revelation with god don’t demonstrate a way to know for certain the mechanism by which their transformation occurred. When value and truth are distinguished, any set of beliefs that leads to perceived value can be seen as true by the believer but this is fallacious. Those with “transformative experiences” need a way to falsify their claim or else accept the “truths” of other conversion experiences. If they can’t falsify their experience, their belief is no more valid than those of a Muslim, Jehovah Witness, Hindu, FLDS or Mormon.

Divine hiddenness was irrelevant. I was serious, but I was never sincere. Generalized Anxiety Disorder makes every decision and every position subject to a second guess and a timid assent. "A prison wall was round us both. Two outcast men we were. The world had thrust us from its heart, And God from out His care, And the iron gin that waits for Sin Had caught us in its snare." --Oscar Wilde

God testing our fate makes no sense to me. The entire old testament is a collection of stories of the Israelites not listening to god, not obeying him and not doing what he wants. These people were god's special people, they didn't need faith, they were beyond faith because they saw god. They saw him physically show up and do things. There was no question that god existed, and still people kept turning his back on him. So why in the hell does he think that hiding himself would work? If these people who literally saw god couldn't keep it together, what hope do we have? This makes no sense.

I'm in the "getting mixed signals" boat. I appreciate your video cause you really do outline the logical and experiential issues me as an agnostic has. I'm trying hard to find God and believe, some days are more convincing than others. Some days im significantly unconvinced, especially when it comes to divine hiddeness. It's like God is not answering me, not getting back to me. It feels like a 1 way conversation. How can a Christian expect someone to convert if they can never really CONFIRM God is real and listening in the first place?

thanks-you do important work

First of all, your argument about how it affects free will is brilliant. Also 14:30 is so good!

This is the BIGGEST problem for me. We have to pray from a humble perspective. We can't get angry that we never get any replies. The moment we get angry, God goes "ohpp!! you got angry! I don't reply to angry people, sorry". Wouldn't God, if he loved me, try to ease my anger? Jonah got mad because God saved people that desperately deserved to die horribly, and all God could do was mock him. But ironically, at least that was an answer. We don't even get that.

Im beginning to doubt rhe sincerity of apologists who claim to have deeply looked into skeptical arguments .

"Mental gymnastics"...perfect description. I need to listen to this one again for several reasons. Glad YOU are out there. Truly, the Lord has sent you to us...bahahahahahahahahahaaaa! :))

as violent as their god is, one would think that Satan was the merciful one

Since Mike believe that people are not really sincere, they just sincerely think they're sincere, my question then would be what is the measure for sincerity, what are the key indicators for one's sincerity. He cannot tell except to imply that the measure is his favorable end results. If the results are what he wanted then the person was sincere, if not then they were not. This is incredibly dishonest and stupid. I think not realizing how stupid his arguments are is his real problem here.

This is the first of your vids I've seen. Immediate sub, well done.

I spent 10 years of my life sincerely seeking Santa Claus. I found that quest to be identical in every way to my quest to meet God. Even the end results were precisely the same. I found the truth instead. My belief is, most people who claim to believe in God, do so because they desire to have the benefits that they have been told come from faith in God, but maintain that faith by ignoring truth at every turn. I have yet to find the one who can embrace scientific truth AND hold a real faith in God. Some do a good job of faking one or the other to fool people around them, but I can see right through them. An intelligent Christian is someone who inherited the title and has little regard for it's meaning.

My first video of Winger he clearly lost a debate with Dilahunty, as his logic is severely limited by his beliefs, but I was struck by how sincere and likable he seemed and went to watch his analysis of the debate. Matt was actually at his worst in that video, yet the only reason Mike could find that he 'lost' was Matt's charm and wit. A few more videos and I now see him as one of the worst of the 'true atheist' deniers to me. His rejection of my sincerity is complete.. he 'knows'. He's insanely arrogant and disrespectful. Reminds me of the quote that religion allows good people to do evil things.

When i was religious i would watch his videos on occasion, it wasnt until i left Christianity and became agnostic that i realized how strange some of his beliefs are, i sometimes look back at his videos and see how much i have changed since back then and also how glad i am to have escaped it.

Love it - what a description, "Mike Winger's Desperate Dance Around God's Disappearance" That is exactly what the believers have to do just to get past the horrible stuff in that old book of nonsense. I tell you the power of childhood indoctrination, stuffing a young head with nonsense should not be underestimated. It is why we have geographical religions but the believers cannot see that obvious point.

Do leprechauns, unicorns, fairies, the Sasquatch and the Loch Ness monster deserve the divine hiddenness trump card as Jesus gets?

so how much is Winger making from his grift? He must know that Jesus calls for him to give everything away if he wants to follow Jesus. He does not seem sincere

i have a daughter. i love her so much. when she disobeyed, i show mercy and grace. i commune with her everyday. i am beside her all the time despsite the stubbornness. i am always there for her. now let's talk about the god of abraham, the one known to all as loving and merciful. where is he now? why is he hiding?

This morning I sincerely wanted daylight not to reveal itself to me, because I was so tired and wanted to sleep some more, get a quality rest. But, out of the blue, daylight presented itself to me in its full glory! 🌞😳🥴 I guess I wasn't sincere enough, because of my multilayered complex psychology... whataeva'. 😎 And that's the problem of daylight unhiddenness.

The problem with Mike Winger is that he seems to be always preaching to the choir. These arguments make sense to a believer. They also allow the Christian to feel a sense of superiority over others.

Divine hiddenness imo is a pretty strong counter to claims of religious experience because it addresses the arrogance of claiming that the creator of existence cares more about some people than he does others based on completely arbitrary criteria. Some people get to 'talk' to their god on a daily basis, whereas the rest of us are left lost in fog with no discernible reason to see the divine in anything in our lives.

I left the church because of people like Mike. The dishonesty, the endless reek of smug, arrogant sanctimony. Dodging questions, discouraging any sincere inquiry and badgering people who dared to ask anything that tested the veracity of the faith. One day enough was enough.

Excellent response. I watched the original video and found it sorely lacking. You have another subscriber now.

I had heard Christians often tell other Christians, "The only Jesus people will see is you." 🗣️😇 It simply proved to me that religiously we are doomed. When I was a Christian, I found myself to be THE WORST example of who Jesus is alleged to be. I am scarred by that implied demand to "be the Jesus that others will see." I mean no disrespect to Mr. Winger, but his argument for "divine hiddenness" is judgmental, and petulant.

Thanks for the video! I think Mike Winger is starting from the assumption that it’s impossible for someone to sincerely seek the truth and not end up a Christian. I also think one of the underlying reasons is that, if it is possible, then someone can end up in hell even if they did their best. And that doesn’t mesh very well with the idea of god being perfectly just or the notion that the people in hell deserve to be there.

I like your clear argument in response to Mike's claim. Somehow, I saw an age-old recurring theme from religion apologist when it come to hard questions (Divine Hiddenness, ProblemOfEvil, Disproportional of Hell time). -- " It's your fault, not God's " (as you had mentioned that these apologist has presupposition that can't be wrong. ) So it comes down to blame game. Which is a borderline close to cult-like manipulation (see BITE model) Another angle of God can't be wrong, is " Why can't God make thing right? "(assume that he can and he has a will)

There's a fantasy movie where God performs a high class miracle by speaking on the radio. The miracle bit is 1) it doesn't record. 2) Each person who hears it hears it in their language. 3) Comes from everywhere. *"The Next Voice You Hear"* (1950, predating the wide availability of Television.)

Re: The insincerely seeking segment, in addition to the fact that sincere seekers do exist, I don't have to try that hard to find/seek out most of the people whom I know exist, sincerely or otherwise. I didn't know most of my friends existed as specific individual people (as opposed to just knowing that people in general exist, which is another tangent for another time) before I met them at work, an event, a class, or whatever else. I didn't go out *seeking* them specifically, and yet i know they exist. Same goes for KZfaqrs, politicians, actors, or whoever else I know exists because I've seen them in papers, on TV, and so on. I didn't go out *seeking* to know that Obama, Trump, or Biden exist and are the three most recent American presidents. But I still encountered that information and didn't reject their veracity. If those very normal, fallible humans are capable of making their existence known to me without me actively looking for them (and in most cases without them intentionally trying to make their presence known to me, either!), I shouldn't need to go out *seeking* an all-powerful being in order for that being to make his/her/its/cactus' existence known to me if that's what said being wants. Doesn't really matter if I'm actively seeking, much less whether I'm being sincere about it! If I can know that Ted Cruz exists by reading the newspaper or turning on the radio, then it should be at least that simple for an all-powerful God who actively wants to be known by everybody in the first place! (And I ain't buying the free will thing, because just like with all the politicians mentioned here, I can know that somebody exists and still freely like or dislike them.)

An omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, all-benevolent god would not have any issues with revealing itself to us in tangible, measurable, repeatable manners; the hiddenness argument is silly.

As a lifetime atheist, I'm absolutely and sincerely *not* looking for god. The whole concept of god makes no sense to me and never has. I have read and heard multiple reasons why god exists and none of them have sufficient intellectual or emotive strength to change my mind. The dishonesty of people like Mike Winger (and many other apologists) just makes them unpleasant.

It puts the lie of "seek and you shall find, knock and the door will be open to you "

The major flaws that I see in Mike’s argument against the sincerity of people who seek God and don’t find him are: 1. He may be able to question the sincerity of an atheist trying God for 2 weeks and not seeing God reveal himself, but how does he explain ex-Christians? Ex-Christians who believed for years and decades, even serving ministerial roles and going to seminary bc of their faith choosing to walk away and finding other explanations for what they thought was God? How could he possibly say that these people were never sincere at any point of time while they were believers? “Faith without deeds is dead”, right? All their deeds pointed to them being real believers. 2. Jesus says that it only takes a mustard seed-sized faith to move mountains, so how much faith does someone have to express in order for God to not be hidden? This is my biggest issue with the “they were never truly saved” crowd. How much faith does it take to truly get the Holy Spirit? Bc according to Jesus it should be fairly easy. At worst, all it should take is one moment of genuine sorrow and guilt over one’s sin and acknowledging a need for a savior. But Cornelius’ conversion goes to show that you don’t even have to exert that much to be saved. He and his friends were just listening to preaching then received the Holy Spirit in the middle of Peter giving the gospel message. Seems pretty easy in the book. What explanation does anyone have for it not being that easy now? And how arrogant it is to question someone’s sincerity when they assure you that they were truly sincere and have receipts to prove it. The real issue is that they don’t actually know and refuse to admit it, so they resort to these vague, indirect, and lazy conclusions then move on. It always results in “we can’t know everything. His ways are higher. Just believe anyways or else.”

A few times over 50 years I thought I connected to god but it never lasted more than a day. It always intrigued me when preachers act like they are praying and god is talking back to them. One even told god to let him get back to preaching and they could talk later. I think it’s BS.

Its amazing how people who have a professed objective dedication to honesty are accused of dishonesty by people who have no fundamental reason beyond their own personal preferences to be honest.

I think about this a lot… as I’m with a believer. I feel they must make it about our sincerity because the fact that their own lives aren’t witness enough is insulting to them.

Imagine if you had a friend who never rang or was contactable yet had other friends who tell me if not constantly grovel to this creature will end up in a horror place this caring creature has made so he can watch his family be eternally tortured.Personally would be running to the hills to escape this evil abusive being who the ultimate abusive parent.