“We need to do our best to change the hearts and minds...not drive them away”

I loved this interview! One of the things that really stuck out for me was the conversation on teaching. I've lost track of the amount of times that I think I know a subject well and then go to teach someone else and realize how little I actually understand about that subject.

Do kids stil read Shirley Jackson's "The Lottery" in high school anymore? It is an effective and chilling allegory on the mob instinct that really resonates with today's predicament.

I honestly couldn't care less about the skin color or genitalia of my doctor. I want the best one, period. The race/gender doesn't attribute to that. Communication and care are the most important to me and they don't discriminate via race/gender.

In the first minute, I was chuckling at both of your near-perfect "Indian English" accents.

When a word or thought or belief becomes unsayable, it attains "glamour" in the oldest sense of the word: it attains power. "He who must not be named" is the most dangerous of enemies. Driving people underground makes them more dangerous, not less.

I used to know a couple of brothers who had a private practice. They were complete opposites politically and one was a homebody, the other a party boy. But when they were in the office none of that mattered, they were both very professional and would decide who gives the bad news based on the patient. The jokey dude would go when a bit of a lighter approach would work and the serious guy would go when his approach would be better. There were pictures on the walls of trips at tiki bars and hall lectures. None of the patients gave a flying damn about their personal lives because they were great at what they did. Practice shut down because twitter mobs went after them for opposite reasons and spammed the practice with reviews to ruin their reputations. Luckily they saw the writing on the wall back in 2017 and had their affairs in order so they could just retire.

African American pharmacist and native Floridian. Have said this for years and seen it in pharmacy care as well!!

Can I give this 1000 thumbs up? Refreshing to hear conversations that make sense amid a culture steeped in inflammatory rhetoric

Critical thinking and comprehension was once a foundation of learning... we had to research and read many books, periodicals and magazines in a library... the process was just as important as the outcome... that has been lost...

What has happened to Merit? Personally , when I need a doctor I want the best in their field regardless of race or gender.

Loved this show! The genuine connection and enjoyment you two have together is fantastic. Which of course makes it so much easier to become immersed in the conversation. I'm excited for the next episode that you have him come back on for.

I wasn't going to watch this because it was so long, but I am so glad I did. I worked several years in a Pediatric Education department, and was responsible for the administration of Pediatric Grand Rounds. I would often sit in on the lecture. There is such a difference between lecturers . . . I am not a medical doctor, but even I learned from the good ones. The not so good ones were awful and only boredom took place. I could see it in the eyes of the interns, residents, and faculty. I think the changes made to the pediatric medical education system has helped better the learning environment. Dr. Prasad, you remind me so much of the Peds Hem/Onc faculty we had, such caring individuals. ZDoggMD, if you think you need an emotional wall treating adult cancer patients, try treating the kids . . . it is heart-breaking. Thanks for this video, I hope the people who need to hear you are listening.

What a mic drop moment when Vinay spoke of "if the path to power or change means you have to be silent and let numerous injustices pass by the time you get to "THE PLACE" you will be so changed you will have nothing to say. Thank you both for showing us what reasoned discussion looks like in a time of contentious communication. It has been a blessing especially when Zdogg keeps the swearing down to a minimum. LOL! It helps me to share with more people when the language is clean. :) Thanks!

Great show! Am I the only one who hopes the poor Med student who wrote the article referencing bikinis listens to you guys- sending hugs!

“What we have loved, others will love, and we will teach them how; instruct them how the mind of man becomes a thousand times more beautiful than the earth on which he dwells.” William Wordsworth

I know I'm late to the ball here. But oh my goodness you two hit so many marks. I am the little peon who has orbited the DOCTOR world, I was respiratory therapy tech for several years at a community hospital, then I worked as a secretary for the IRB at UCLA. I appreciate the candor with which you both spoke. Politically, we are diametrically opposed (Candace Owens and I sit on the same bench), but your willingness to listen and not shutdown is beyond refreshing. Thank you for an excellent discussion.

This conversation and these topics are vitally important to everyone! You are both so knowledgeable and fair in your approach, I’m blown away. Thank you both for showing how honest, respectful dialogue can and should happen! ♥️

So glad I have found your channel, about a month ago. I have been telling everyone about it!

A great practitioner is a different skillet from a great teacher. To find both in the same person is RARE.

I can not even tell you how much this discussion resonated with me. Sanity, wow, got to love it!

Makes all the sense in the world, in a teaching hospital, so many hands making the soup, and names get slapped on all the time. I saw one lawsuit, I swear they sued every attending, fellow, resident, intern, and medical student with the last name “Patel”, just to make sure they got the right Patel.

Just found ZDoggMD. What an excellent series. I love the discussions with the guests. Real critical thinking in action here.

52:30 to 55 Vinay's soldier analogy and Z's rant... that resonated with me more than I can describe. Amazing podcast!

Fantastic discussion. Looking forward to your guest talking again about Oncology drugs, etc. Love the authenticity.

Loving the discussion around 58 mins- currently applying to a clinician/educator track for neonatology with a medical education focus. Here's to having more "teacher phenotypes" in academia!

Thank you, Z! Great guest and great conversation.

Thank you for yet another transparent discussion.

Zdogg I love your impersonation of your parents talking!

I have very recently stumbled upon you. God bless you. I'm just an ordinary woman and you untangle these issues in a way that I can understand without having to go get my own medical degree. Thank you soooooo much. I'm very interested but I don't understand all that medical jargon. Now I can engage in a greater field of dialogue.

If I'm not mistaken, the implicit bias test that ZDogg is talking about at 22:15 was DESIGNED to collect aggregate data. The makers of that test specifically said that findings from this test cannot be applied to individuals.

You’re one of the best😁. Thanks for putting such wonderful, sciencey, and often hysterical content out there. 👏🏻👍🏻

“...fuzzy feeling, yeah-“ “-BURNING ANGER.” 🤣🤣🤣

1:01:35 Yes, this was me-M2. Only difference: 6 of us did this together in unoccupied classrooms, self-paced thru the syllabus, and pausing at times to clarify or bounce ideas off each other.

Incredibly interesting discussion. I have so much respect for Dr. Vinay Prasad for the examples he demonstrates when disagreeing with another person's viewpoint. I love the way DR. Z and Dr. P break down the different interpretations of a research paper. Well done! And, oh my, I love how Dr. Prasad paints such vivid word pictures.

The best two!!! Can’t stop listening!!!!

This is very inspiring... too often I sabotage myself and my potential 'calling' and not move fwd with it! thanks

Greeeeaaaate show! Loved every minute of it.

If you are in medicine for the right reasons, it's a natural extension to speak up for other people.

Your shows are getting better and better!! (not even done with it yet) great show, i agree 100%

Thank you, Dr Prasad-at 51:00-THIS 100%!!!!

Awesome Vinay!

Being a EM Dr I don’t normally play in the HemOnc game except for that consult call but I wii have to look this Dr up

_Do White Doctors Kill Black Babies_ is one of the best titles ive ever read. jc

Great dialogue with another fun loving critical thinker. Time to upgrade my support for this Dog Doc😎

3:30 was pure gold

Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you!!!!

I haven't listened to all of this yet but have to say that 1) my husband, for example, is a great clinical researcher and teacher in our local university hospital, but not a good lecturer or bench researcher--He doesn't get credit for that even though at the end of the day he probably has more impact on the final practices of the trainees than many others who get the kudos because of their publishing and 2) in all our training and experience in excellent medical schools and residencies we NEVER NEVER NEVER treated anyone differently because of race and 3) more women in medicine would be great but there HAS TO BE A BETTER WAY to allow us to have sane family lives during child-rearing or any other family-demanding stages of life. Let's face it, women overall end up carrying a lot those demands, and if we have to take a career break sometimes to accommodate that, it should be ok, and not insanely difficult or expensive to get back in to practice. MOC makes all of that a million times harder than it already is. Oh, and yeah, the cost of med school needs to return to planet earth. Who can afford to care for a family and pay off that debt???

This was an awesome podcast! I love it when Z uses his 'Indian' voice!! I about fall on the floor laughing! It's Amazing!!

What an intellectual delight

Appreciate how Dr. V broke down the holes in the research paper. There’s just too many variables that aren’t represented. If the doc who is recorded didn’t even treat the baby how does that study prove anything?

@18:11 It seems that Dr. Prasad hasn't read "Repressive Tolerance" by Herbert Marcuse. Marcuse's essay explains that the (currently popular) way to disagree with someone is to fire, cancel, and retract. It is not to "defeat their arguments with better ones," but to not allow them to even have had their viewpoint aired in first place.

can some one link this paper they are talking about?

I learned & learned & learned .........thank you

“What’s unprofessional is giving a shitty talk so I have to leave” hahahaha exactly!

No worries Dr. Z. We won't let ya get cancelled! ;)

Great points.

I love VP! I catch everything VP I can find!

This was fun.

It’s not “I could care less” It’s “I couldn’t care less”

This type of discussion is why I follow you! I don't always agree, and sometimes strongly disagree with the opinions you or Dr Prasad have expressed but welcome your approach to topics that tend to be third-rail issues. If we are to overcome this caustic environment that IMHO, the modern left has created in general society, academia and politics, we need to have open and honest, respectful debate.

What mic do you guys use?

Ascribing privilege to someone who has achieved some amount of success, be it professional, financial, or personal, is a matter of perception. It is an insult to claim that what people have achieved is a result of privilege based on their race. This discounts the hard work and sacrifice that they put into achieving their dreams. We never know what struggles others have faced, what obstacles they have overcome, or what discrimination they have battled. Race is but a single facet of a whole person, and it should be viewed in that context.

HOW I GOT CURED: Thanks for the Dermatology video most internal medicine guys are weak in Derm but, this stuff is really important.. Skin cancer is no joke I got cut twice for premalignant cells on my left arm around 4 years ago. Yes the pathology biopsy came back nevus but, the dermatologist look at the histology printout and said it looked like premalignant cells. He recommended surgery and the first surgeon was wonderful but according to the pathologist she didn't get all of the premalignant cells so a second surgery was ordered and this surgeon was a butcher, she was terrible. Just goes to shows that all doctors are not created equal. What I found out later is the hospitals and doctors in Tampa Fl and the whole United State involved where playing political games and I never needed any of the surgery. At the same time a neurologist at the same hospital diagnosed me with Multiple Sclerosis (M.S.), which I didn't have and he wanted to start me on 6 shots of interferon a day immediately. Good thing I went to another hospital for a second opinion where that neurologist said I definitely did not have any signs of M.S. I also found out that these doctors work with corrupt lawyers to make money off insurance companies, pharmaceuticals etc... This is the reason I don't tolerate any corruption in medicine. My mom's doctor got 3 years in prison for fraudulently falsifying medical diagnosis's with a lab and treating people that didn't have those illnesses. I have worn long sleeve shirts and hat's ever since and the premalignant cells have never returned. This video could save some life's, very important. I decided to dedicate the rest of my life to studying natural herbal herbs which lead me with the contact of Dr Abiola who was able to cure me of this Skin Cancer. All human lives have value and should be treated like a reasonable person and everyone who want to be cured should be told the truth. Dr Abiola is a credit to the Herbs community as an outstanding educator and herbalist doctor. Contact him via: (drabiolaherbalsolutionhome@yahoo.com .

Damn this is some great material analysis of medicine and race

You should invite Dr.Shiva Ayyadurai. It'll be so awesome 👌

0:45 best moment hands down

One aspect of that paper which has been shown in other research is that minority patients tend to listen to doctors of their race. The parents are often the 'patients' with very young children. Many of these deaths are SIDS cases, perhaps parents are more likely to abstain from smoking/drinking, co sleeping etc, if someone from their race/culture advises them thusly. This is a potential confounder that doesn't blame anyone, is supported by other research, and calls for more minority physicians on the basis of how patients act, inherently.

With regards to communicating, some of the problem is forgetting how students haven't internalized the same basic concepts. I had a Civil Procedure professor in law school who was clearly an expert in her field and who regularly argued before the Supreme Court. She scared some students with her impersonal tone. I think she consciously took efforts to adjust her teaching to the fact her students were ignorant with a number of examples and questions BUT she failed to account for the struggle to learn the vocabulary for more field-specific concepts. The failure to understand the jargon snowballed into a painful experience with the more sedate parts of the lectures.

We get sensibility when we take aspects from the left, and aspects from the right and put them together. Go alt middle!

Need more communicative and better communicators for science and medical fields. For teaching the public and students learning.

52:30 yes, yes! One of the great disappointments but not necessarily surprises for me these past 2 years is that more science practitioners aren't coming forward and saying "this doesn't make sense", and aren't protecting the integrity of the practice of science. What's any of it worth if scientists themselves won't do what it takes to protect their profession.

Is this the first unofficial VPZD episode??

I am conservative and guess I am an exception; but I really find the way someone dresses to be irrelevant and also it is enjoyable to see people with their own style.Even half naked on the beach. My kids call me socially liberal; I am conservative versus being A conservative. Really though I don't think being judgemental about dress is Left or Right. I think it's more people who don't like people that look or behave differently from themselves. I see that in most people; I do work with geriatric patients mostly. By the way I love it when you have Vinay Prasad, MD on. Even though I don't always agree, I like the way he explains his side so well. I am envious as mostly I can't verbalize a clear statement most times.

Gunner 👍

Do meds make decisions based on poverty/drug use history/family discord etc? How can that be measured?

I'd like to give these professionalism studies to my profs who stop lectures to take a 5 minute phone call or who tell us openly that they don't want to be there. It's kind of crazy to hold people to arbitrary standards like taking food from a lecture or having long hair when higher ups get a pass on behaviour that is arguably a lot worse.

Gotta love CNN.... Thanks again Dr Z Persian Indian, honestly you learn something new every day... I kind of thought western European ancestors...

If this study was a ivermectin study it would have been binned a while ago. Instead no crowdsource public picking at to find holes.

Well if I'm a rich person of any race I can afford a pediatrician I'm comfortable with.This might be a factor hard to quantify.

canon video

Not done yet with the video... Is it possible that health condition/nutrition status of the mother may have also affected the mortality rate of the child? The pandemic also had hit minority groups in the US harder than the white. Black/brown people, due to melanin, have lower vitamin D levels.

There's a number of different things which play into published papers. The two biggest things are : 1. If it confirms a socially acceptable result then it's more likely to pass "peer review" because nobody wants to look too closely. 2. You can pretty much get published as long as you know which publication is likely to not look that closely at your research. I'm not saying every study is junk science but there's no shortage of people willing to publish junk to support an agenda.

Very insightful conversation. Keep this sort of content coming!🤘

I thought I was very left until I went to the left coast....I think Northeastern left is a little different, especially New England left.

Good conversation, but there has been studies done showing that Black Babies are being murdered by white doctor's and nurses. Texas death rate is so high it's higher than the national average. One nurse was deemed guilty but was moved to a hospital in New York. Then there is Black Women being turned away from hospitals in the process of birthing. I have had clients who experienced this first hand. There are tons of African Americans who want to become Doctors and high level nurses. However, they are met with opposition especially when coming from backgrounds of poverty. I think the key is having open honest dialogue with the Medical industry about race and the things systemically done to stop blacks from graduating. I have tons of medical friends who can speak on this.

More lady doctors and/or scientists please! (big fan!!!).

It’s funny you say that it is a right of center type of censoring in requiring the retraction. The right of center stance is that the anecdote to bad information is more information, discussion, and freedom of speech.

Good discussion today. Obviously, NEVER read comments or engage with a twitter mob. This is a boring and uninteresting exercise. Two concerns: Accolades via twitter can be seductive, they will stroke your ego and distract from core ideas. Harsh criticism may become discouraging if sense of self is not strong. Don't waste time by engaging.

Hilarious and engaging discussion. The Indian accents tho!! BTW- The audiophile obsession is such a male thing. Women just care that we can hear it reasonably well.

Regarding the PNAS infant mortality paper: Is the critique of the doctor allocation data validity problem really as invalidating of the study as you think? I think an argument can be made that it's not; after all, we could equally assume that there could be a bias among the persons doing the data entry to attribute bad outcomes to black physicians, who often are less protected by systems from liability, etc. Furthermore, rather than focusing on the interpretation that white doctors provide worse care, who is to say that the disparity is not purely better results due to the presence of a black physician in the care team? This could be mediated by making the parents more at ease and trusting of the care team; there is a plethora of research showing the parents have the largest effect on the child's outcomes, health or otherwise. In any case, I think that, even if the data quality is a problem, it may have altered the effect size, but the paper might still be considered evidence of a true effect.

48:59 “live-meditating”

I appreciate both speakers passion... I wish the world had more people (not just doctors) like them.

I don’t think is all skin color, it is also understanding the culture of poverty. Doctors and Nurse Practitioner’s who grew up poor, and remain humble also provide better care to the poor and people of color. If as a provider know what low income housing looks like from a personal perspective, know what it is like to try and feed growing children healthy meals on food stamps, or just under stand the stigma of poverty. Those Doctors, PA’s, and Nurse Practitioner provide better because they have been there.

Couple of thoughts... completely agree about the data analysis and how doctors were attributed to this study. The publishers should perform a much deeper study associating the OBGYN caring for the mother during ante partum care. However, completely disagree on the racial outcomes assessment because it is unrealistic to believe that in ALL USA there's no racial bias in the medical field leading to poorer health outcomes. In your utopian world of great doctors that would not base outcomes on race is completely flawed. Just because there's a lot of red tape regarding this research doesn't mean it doesn't exist. On another note, the systematic burden placed on minorities starting with primary education places many disproportionately behind white counterparts. In regards to privilege, I personally feel that it is not a diss or an attack. When privileged is reference (I acknowledge I personally enjoyed certain privileges) it is a means to acknowledge that someone did not have to overcome various social barriers those without privilege suffered through. Again, citing primary education along with poverty, housing instability, broken homes etc are many common barriers many POC deal with early in life leading to less optimal outcomes. This doesn't mean we should feel guilty about our 'privilege' but should simply be aware of obstacles in life.

Regarding Norman Wang: while it's correct to say his ideas should be critiqued and defeated, it's also appropriate to remove a person with extreme views regarding race from a position of authority over others, which is what happened to him. "Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps his mouth shut" -- no-one forced him to write and submit that paper. By doing so, he revealed his true opinions, which are opinions unsuited to (again) a position of power/authority, a position indicating esteem and respect.

Oh man bring back the mullet

That just floors me, that someone would get into either of these fine gentleman’s faces and whine, “You don’t know what it feels like to be a minority”!!?? WTH does that mean?? Like Dr P said, they don’t know anything about him, or how hard he worked to get where he is, etc. etc. I hate the fatalist attitude that is inherent in that question. Oh, we’re not supposed to get anywhere in life because of our skin color?? Or vice versa-the only reason whites get ahead is _because_of their skin color? Oh please!! It’s about content of character!! Martin Luther King, Jr.

😂 Where does it say having a black doctor as a black patient undoes slavery? Holy shit

According to your parents' definition of worth, I am worthless. Lol, love it. 🤣