Long live stone tablets and chisels!

I used vi when coding Java before our program approved Eclipse. I remember knowing everything about certain classes and their methods/parameters by memory. Once I got code complete I was spoiled

Emacs any day in the week.

@@AndersJackson ~

Still waiting for vii

PyCharm is just better. I use it for web development and it saves me a lot of time (=money)

But PyCharm is very OP especially with large projects not some basic apps

@@sid4579 It really isn't. I've not yet used a worse Python IDE than PyCharm. It was an exercise in continuous frustration. Also, PyCharm isn't open either.

right this should be USE VS CODE!

i use --user-data-dir to change my vscodium folder to a large hard drive so that it does not consume home folder space

and like i thought, he brings up "not open source" as a reason to not use vscode, i agree so i guess the video is not targeted at me since i use vscodium only

i find it interesting that he would list the closed source parts as negatives and then go on to describe them as "the good stuff ™" seconds later. i just find it intriguing that he would hold these beliefs simultaneously, that's all

I do this and walk away, come back 15 minutes later to check my pipeline in gitlab and I haven't committed anything :')

​@@chrisgascoyne2958that's because you didn't push xDDDD

@@chrisgascoyne2958 Apt punishment for trying to commit without a commit message 🙂

Even better, follow deliberate git principles by using the terminal to make the commits. The GUI is frankly terrible at deliberateness.

@@sudo008 Many people who use the terminal just do: git add .; git commit -m "update"; git push and there will be a day where I'm going to smash their keyboards and fingers with a hammer (in minecraft don't arrest me please), so I'm really not convinced that the gui is making anything worse.

as a pycharm user, I have to admit it is quite memory hungry.

@@arvetemechaMemory hungry? How much ram do you have 8gb? I run multiple instances of PyCharm at the same time while also running Goland, Webstorm, and with an active OBS stream to Twitch, 0 issues

Quit coding and get a typist job.

Im sure he did cause you said so ;)

It's like Arch/Linux. "I use arch btw."

There is somewhat of a reason for that. It's unsurprisong when a native tool is written in C or even C++, and it is entirely expected in fact as we know those languages have the capability to create mature, stable, and hardended tools. Newer languages for compiled programs don't have that assumption. They often fall short in some way or another, or the entire reason it works is by virtue of a supporting framework/library that eliminates whether or not you care about the library. Electron is a good example; do we even know or care what underlying language was used when it's an electron app? No; what mattered was electron. With Rust, it's different. The heavy lifting is being done through the programmer and the language itself, and it is surprising this much already useful, resource efficient, non-memory leaking, end-user software is being created this fast. That is a testament to Rust and the goal is for us to have more/better software because the langauge enables it; not to make the language more used even in suboptimal use cases.

Yeah for some use cases like ML and Data where external tools are used all the time VSCode is definitely more efficient

You haven’t used PyCharm or Datalore

I was Pycharm for ages because I think the debugger is top tier. But this weekend I got my Windows machine running WSL to debug a JAX Docker container using dev containers in VSCode - all on FREE software. Yeah easy use of notebooks is also very useful, personally I don't implement them but it's very useful to at least be able to run them and I have no idea why its pro only in Pycharm. Also from a Dev Ops perspective I can share all the JSON configs with my team and they can replicate all this mad workflow stuff with ease.

Yeah, you are right. Another pycharm ad. Pycharm not optimized, use 6 gb ram in idle, cant open big files, code completion use bad tips

On my system VS Code actually takes about 5 GB and I have even seen it twice as big at least. But it depends on the number of installed extensions and programming languages that you develop in. However in the video, he only looked at the dot vscode directory wich mostly stores extensions, but there is another just as important directory with the name Code, which on Windows sits in your AppData Roaming dir and on Linux in your dot config dir in your user home. Both of these directories can be significant in size.

@@jongeduard yes, and everything that VSCode can do, Emacs (and mostly vim) can do with way less space on RAM and disc, and thus much more efficient.

​@@AndersJackson Yes we know that. But I think it's also fair to look at this aspect from different points of view. Just consider what VS Code actually adds when you subtract the large "Chromium layer" size from the total allocated memory and just look at the actual memory usage top of that layer. This is quite likely to be a lot smaller and is probably be much more comparable to loading simply a large webpage in a tab in your already running webbrowser. However, this excludes extensions of course, which can be really large, but which also come with complex functionality like debugging tools and a lot of code completion features. I would not be surprised if some Neovim extensions are also quite big. Maybe I will try Neovim one day though. Currently I am familiar to the regular Vim, although I don't use it for large software development.

@@jongeduard don't care that much about Neovim, I am a Emacs man. And yes, Emacs still is smaller then VS Code, and it doesn't matter that it is the Chrome layer that take most of the memory. Because that is the runtime that VS Code has made the choice to use. Until VS Code choose another run time, there are still part of the memory use running that program. Using Neovim is just extension language diffrence from Vim, so you should be able to use that. But Emacs is much more expandable, as the Emacs is self documenting, which make it a great tool for hacking, with a good language for writing those extensions.

Then you are really missing some cool stuff that can reduce your work

If you are a developer, then you should.

Every programming language recommends q specific IDE while not closing the idea of using other also. I have different IDE for specific reasons, but 70 percent of thr time, I use Vs code.

Not really. I do too

@@SergiobgEngineer only pencil neck dorks really obsess and worry about something like an IDE

I don't get how the memory argument was not immediately thrown out. Seriously, VSCode could use 8GB for all I care, you're not rendering 4K in a hurry while coding, you're not playing Hitman 3 while you write up an API and you're not playing Cities Skylines with 120 running mods when patching a driver build. My 6 year old PC build contains a grand total of 16GB at 2333MHz, not even _that_ much back in ye olde 2017. Unless your code editor is swallowing up most of your RAM what the hell do you care how much it uses? What could you possibly be doing on the side? And if we're talking about working in a company and saving resources over many employees, how is that worth a possibly negative UX for your paid workforce? Saving 500MB of RAM on a dev is almost certainly not paying for the reduction in productivity

I would imagine it was about the risks of a single point of failure. That's not true of all plugins. However, if there's just one person working on something and that person vanishes you may end up being forced to change. If more than one person is involved with something there's less of a risk of something going wrong. I've had that happen with a window manager, and was painful to deal with.

Which one? Tab Manager Plus? @@jocketf3083

Your point being?

@@user-yw5me7pb2xAs in, I think the bus factor is a valid thing to consider when picking tools.

What about the extensions? Do you have access to the same ones?

@@B20C0No unfortunately not in the extension menu because something something microsoft something something legal issues with distributing vscode extensions. But you can still install them manually by downloading them on the vscode extension market place and then installing inside the editor. A bit of a hassle but a sacrifice I am willing to make

You can do that with VS Code too using code --diff

this is the realest comment under this video

Agreed 😂

why not

Dont cry

VSCode is fine and so is Python.

Definitely get the vim extension for VSCode, you'll thank yourself a couple months from now if you power through it. Configuring vim is a huge undertaking and it might distract you from work or other projects you'd prefer to focus on. I started with vim motions in VSCode, and eventually switched to neovim because I wanted everything in my editor to follow vim philosophy. Trying to navigate file trees, tabs, windows etc. in VSCode with just a keyboard got a bit tiring. I spent weeks configuring vim, and did it at a time when I didn't have any real obligations and my love for programming was waning. In my case vim restored my love for programming a bit. Today, I'd say the main draw of vim as an editor (rather than vim motions in other editors) is the extensibility. By learning vim you automatically learn how to configure vim as well, which makes it very easy to quickly customize your workflow. For example, I wanted to generate index.ts files which import and export all files in it's directory. I did it manually once with a shell command and a substitute command, then I saved that to a macro and now I can generate files like that any time I like, anywhere. You kind of get to code your coding environment if that makes sense. I'm not sure if this is enough to be worth the time it takes to learn vim, but I personally think it's very fun and I doubt many people who learn vim ever go back. Also, I think you can use local nvim to edit over ssh like you can in VSCode.

I feel like the anti-VSCode crowd is a bit like the vegans of linux, aka Arch. I get that you can customize it to hell and back, that's awesome, but you know what's awesome about VSCode? It just f*ing works, out of the box. Wanna write up massive HTML in seconds? Emmet is included. Don't know which keybinds make sense for Emmet? There's an extension that takes care of that. It's just so damn comfortable, I'm not a power user per se but when you're actually "working" on something I'd argue getting constantly annoyed and fixing things because your editor is a janky mess of DIY concoctions, that is a big minus for "flow-state". I love adding 50 HTML elements with pre-set patterned IDs and just tabbing through the content fields, or auto-wrapping multiple list elements at once *and not having to dedicate a second of thought to how I got that to work, because it just does* and my job here is to code and (almost certainly) not to make my own editor. As a big privacy guy, I still use Windows almost daily for the same reasons. I get the telemetry and whatnot is a big negative aspect, but doing common things in Linux almost always brings a major level of jank which I usually just don't want to deal with, my father actually raised me on Linux and yet I still often can't stand it. Best case scenario in Linux (if Wine doesn't work) is that there's an open source program for x task, which is great and all, but I find they are always such barebones things. GIMP existing is awesome, I'll give you that, but its user interface is undeniably meh and that's what I dislike about so many of these great initiatives, that they're often just too janky to do outside of "linux is my hobby" (exception being Blender, god I love Blender 3.x so much more)

Then you never will see a better IDE/Editor or what is good in others and what you want to do in the one you are comfortable with.

@@AndersJackson I don't see Carmack discussing about IDEs

@@LuixHe’s used Visual Studio for decades.

Exactly who cares.

⁠@@Luixyou missed the point of the talk

plugins

I suppose he'd argue that you'd use the debugger directly from the command-line (gdb, lldb, etc)

But VSCode is not IDE. This is text editor on steroids with plugins.

Same thing about git. Yes, it's useful to know git commands and options so when things get messy, you can fix it, but there is no way in hell I'm gonna use commandline git and vi to merge stuff or do code review.

If you add "set clipboard=unnamedplus" to the vimrc it will automatically use the system clipboard for all operations that copy, cut, delete and paste text. Aside from that custom keybindings can be helpful for making some features more convenient to use.

micro is my

Microsoft already kinda owns OSS with Github + VSCode. 😂Weird times...

I agree

@@dyto2287 That's why we avoid github too. Everyone here avoids github, right?

@@dyto2287 + Copilot. It means thay own your OSS code.

@@dyto2287 ??? Github/VSCode != OSS (not even remotely)

I recently heard someone complain about customizability of VS Code and I couldn't relate at all. The thought that something is missing never occured to me in the 4-5 years I have been using it. And I have like only a handful of the default settings adjusted. So I guess I match the target audience perfectly.

sure it has a lot of extensions, but its extensibility is laughable if you try to compare it to (neo)vim/emacs.

​@@TheDuckPox Yes, like I said, it's a tradeoff. Even with Emacs, for example, you have popular presets like Spacemacs and Doom. The reason is that people tend to like a reasonable set of shared defaults, that other people use and know how to teach them about quickly. I actually found it easier to use vanilla Emacs with the *straight.el* pkg manager, since it's similar to my system manager (Nix for NixOS), and there's less 3rd party boilerplate that could cause bugs or unclear behaviour that causes you to waste more time debugging than just adding an extra bit of ELisp config code yourself. At a certain point, before I got into coding as a job, I had probably written more ELisp config code than actual code lol The problem with all of this is, when you tend to work a lot with other people, it's easier to use something less configurable, so you can debug each other's crap easier, and because it's easier to convince them to use it in the first place. It's probably why, in terms of popularity, Python beat Ruby, Windows & macOS beat Unix derivatives like FreeBSD and Linux for many home users (at least at first), and the C family of languages in general beat the Lisp family. I think the 'straitjacket' is a feature, not a bug in many tools. Does it handicap people who could work better without all the sometimes arbitrary and sometimes needless rules and limitations? Of course. But it also helps everyone else know what to expect in a way. Like I said, tradeoffs. Also, I had developed a ricing addiction with Emacs, and had to give it up entirely for my sanity lol

IMO with extensions one can make it fully featured IDE.

"muh privacy" moment. there are these people, just ignore it and use whatever gives you the most pleasent experience

i'd say, the problem is that they can have a gotcha in the terms and conditions, and if you use it for some serious commercial project, you might get into a deep gotcha, ending up with huge payments to microsoft. Or they just say "sorry, not free anymore, pay 9999 to continue using it".

Didn't get that either. I just write a few words and send it off. Are there any special features we are missing?

@@RealFlicke The issue is probably the size of it

@@kimono8413 But it resizes if you press shift+enter. I thought it was made this way because commit messages are supposed to be very short anyway.

And if you need to write an essay, you can just click Commit without entering the message: it will start committing and open COMMIT_EDITMSG file for you.

Your commit messages should be verbose and explain the issue being fixed or implemented. The git history is documentation and needs to be useful for everyone, including you a year from now. A small text field encourages useless commit messages.

Thanks. But it doesn't work when you need to share the file and everyone else is using jupiter notebook. I use jupyter ascending and paired notebook for that.

Fair point! I didn't know about "jupyter ascending", thanks for pointing it out :) @@sbdaule

Hi, can you give an example or reference for this 2 line function and how to bind?

​@@tomemcd Hi, I am only now seeing this, sorry. I will paste this below. Feel free to edit to your liking: `custom_functions.lua` ``` function M.set_main_terminal() vim.g.main_terminal_job_id = vim.b.terminal_job_id print("Main terminal job id set to " .. vim.g.main_terminal_job_id) end function M.paste_to_terminal() vim.api.nvim_chan_send(vim.g.main_terminal_job_id, vim.fn.getreg('+') .. ' ') end ``` `keybindings.lua` ``` vim.keymap.set('n', 'pt', '"+Y:lua require("custom_functions").paste_to_terminal()', {desc = 'Paste line in main terminal'}) vim.keymap.set('n', '', require('custom_functions').set_main_terminal, {desc = 'Set main terminal buffer'}) ``` Of course, you can just put both of these in your `init.lua`.

Thank you@@StanislavStratiev

What's wrong with the lsp servers available on vim as plugins?

@@Raimox112 Since you can use "pylance" with vim, the only choice would be "pyright". But the "pyright" often shows some red highlights to alert me some issues which are false alarm. I think my question would be: is there any vim lsp server for Python that can work perfectly like "pylance" does?

Pyright

what does pylance do better than whatever you used to use?

@@ashikurrahman2247 Pyright just spams you with false alarms.

@tauraamui below talked about lilly a helix based editor

🤭

Lunarvim has a nice out of the box experience closer to what you expect with any modern IDE.

right but after importing the bindings into another IDE what is the advantage of vim exactly. Its so weird and limiting to use a terminal to edit files. In any IDE you can look up parent classes, read method definitions, easily run and debug your code or get AI suggestions now, plus the seemless integration to git...anyone who uses vim to code honestly that's pretty weird

What's a more seamless integration to git than working in the terminal? XD I don't know why I've just been using a terminal editor forever and I like using a web browser for looking at docs. I have the co-pilot plugin as well, what more do I need? Maybe I'll give vscode a try with the vim plugin. I don't like touching the mouse when I'm coding.

@@radscorpion8 You don't know what you are talking about. You can see "parent classes" with treesitter, "method definition" can be done with treesitter or LSP, debugging can be done with e.g. nvim-dap or gdb. Git can be done with e.g. lazygit which btw is much faster than the VS code git integration. If you don't know these things, that's ok, but please stop spreading misinformation about vim or neovim.

If you use something like neovim which is kinda successor of vim imo then you can use plugins to help you with that. Something like lspconfig and mason helps you config all the lsp with just few lines of code. Of course there is some learning curve but for me it’s worth it. I feel like I know what’s going on behind the rather than seeing vscode magically doing everything for me. For most of the user it might not matter but for me it does.

kind of guy to introduce himself on a date with "I use gentoo"

It wasn't created by MS, right?

@@fwsuperhero1 oh right, I"ve gotten the timeline mixed up. Chris Granger _was_ working on IDEs at Microsoft, but that was prior to launching light table. For some reason I had him _at microsoft_ when it was first announced.

@@capability-snob I didnt know that :-).

I don't use Plasma anymore, but Kate/KDevelop were really good. Better than pretty much any other "second tier popularity" editor/IDE. The only real disadvantage Kate has vs VSCode is the much larger plugin ecosystem, but you can still get most things done with Kate.

Good point. On Linux I am not primarily a Plasma user but more Xfce, but I am an explorer of many operating systems, desktops, tools and programming languages and I know Kate is actually a pretty nice application, it looks great and also supports Vim keybindings (although not everything works the same) which is important to me, so I agree with that it would have been a great thing to notice. But maybe he just didn't know. The world of open source software is really huge today and it's impossible to know everything.

I don't use Plasma either but use Kate daily on Gnome/Fedora. I've had a bit of a look at VS Code but haven't seen anything to draw me away from Kate. Been using it and Vim for 15+ years.

Who is going to learn to use something well when they don't like it ?

@@theelmonk who is going to have a trustworthy opinion on the merits of a program they didn't even bother trying to learn? VSCode is a breeze for so many things, it has a marketplace packed with nifty extensions and so much more. Why would I care about its efficiency? Let it be inefficient, it cannot possibly lag on my PC and it's far from new, because it's a damn text editor, I'll accept that tradeoff for it, you know, just working without fuss and the usual open source jank (FTR I love open source, but most "big" FOSS programs are too janky to use as replacements for the industry standards, a notable exception being recent blender builds)

Exactly.. surely 73.7% of 25+ million software devs can't be wrong can we?

Why would I not use Neovim, which is much faster than VS Code and has all the features I need?

More importantly they work with much smaller amounts of data and less clutter. So their tests look fine. There's also no easy way out of that since they need to be able to assemble the software, with a thousand missteps and things that don't just work, each might take seconds to write, and need least a restart or recompile to try. I've worked with web applications that need 15-20 mins to start, which would be impossible to work with. So they run it with 100 test records while the real thing has millions. And it might still be a lot of waiting for the next issue to look into. I'm not saying that this is how we gonna get anywhere better or that i wouldn't give up being able to comment here or even the whole platform if it would make everyone use simpler more reliable software 😂

@@udirt I doubt that - I'm assuming the VSCode team is familiar with "dogfooding" and would at least use VSCode to develop VSCode. after all, vscode uses a lot of typescript and they also market themselves as the best typescript editor

So not true, at least for some of us. I used to work on a project where we had to run a full SAP instance locally in order to develop full stack, and that was actually THE reason for me to switch away from VSCode to NVim since it saved me exactly the amount of memory that made the difference between unresponsive to responsive PC.

@@dan-kn3dm you missed the point - under "don't bother to optimize" I mean the system they create and sap is a good example - it needs tons of RAM and cpu, it is probably written in java which is on top of a JVM, which then interprets abap language, which to be executed is likely first fetched from oracle or hana database- bloat on bloat on bloat

With Linux, I often use VI. Say I'm using a headless server. I'd suggest learning VI is a valuable skill that will always help you in a pinch. Normally I use VSCode to edit files on my Pi4 through Samba but, fairly often, I'm logged into the console on the PI4 and need to edit and compile something. That's when the VI skills kick in.

In vscode, I just simply enable Vim bindings. Works just fine as if editing a file from a terminal emulator

All due respect for your mentor, but I am cut off from civilization far less often than I find myself at a computer without my preferred software (And if you really worry about not having clean water, bring along some iodine tablets or whatever it is as part of your everyday carry. You can already drink dirty water if you just suck it up, the trick is not dying from it)

proprietary

Drag and drop nocoders be like:

"it's not hard enough so I no likey"

I think VSCode doesn't have that level of customization, but it does have a Zen mode 🙂

If you're living in the '90s. Here, in the 21st century, Emacs is pretty outdated.

nice meme

@@CristiNeagu Last time I checked, Emacs is still being updated, new packages are being added and updated every time. Don't understand where you get this idea form.

based

@@Sun_Seeker Microsoft still updates Windows XP for some companies. They still publicly update Windows 10. Doesn't mean they're not obsolete.

WORD?

@@Cobalt985 kzfaq.info/get/bejne/jplkjdCcysCon6c.html

good, considering Neovim is one of the best editors out there.

What? First of all create docker support or other way to navigate within separate environment to support toolchain code navigation. After that we will continue to talk. On other hand vscode is damn way stupid by default. Haven't seen ideal solution yet.

I would say that notebooks are by data scientist or analyst. imho data engineers should be system and database admins with a good knowledge of the underlying system, so they can support scientist and analyst in implementing the matured analysis into a data pipeline. Many times I see data engineers end up doing analysis, and usually they are very good optimizing a SQL query, but don't know s***t about basic statistics or actual ML and the results show. I also see data scientist that are made to set up a data infrastructure, and the results are laughable. It is pedantic but it is necessary to make the distinction. The same way a programmer is not software engineer or architect.

Yeah but... if you've been using it for 15 years of course you're gonna like it more than vscode...? Not to be mean but isn't "getting distracted on features" basically normal for software you haven't gotten 100% used to? My .bashrc also doesn't look that intimidating and it's only like 30 lines long but much of that took ages to actually come up with / get used to.

Oh come on dude, every anti VSCode person gives the lamest reasons... xD When you already know your extensions/features, VSCode is ultra productive.

Yeah but as long as this increases productivity in the long run that's fine. What's bad about vscode is that importing ALL your preferences, settings and extensions is annoying and not a one-click process.

Vim does all of that

You have not looked at Emacs then. It got everything like that, and more. Like Magit and Org mode, which isn't done in vim..

vim, emacs, helix, etc. all do that.

The Linux people will all tell you they can do that too but, they don't mention the hassle of getting it working and the difficulty of fixing it when it breaks. Linux people accept a level of jank that Windows people don't. I use windows and Linux interchangeably. I like the freedom of Linux but with that freedom comes a janky experience the evangelists would blame me for.

​@@quademasters249 you must be joking. there's a reason that almost nothing critical on the entire internet runs on windows and nearly all of it runs on linux.