I'm looking into this, and I've done this before. One of my personal bugaboo's in the "nonconceptual" learning. Holding up a flower, and having this one person "get it," then he transfers this "get it" moment forward, and so on. My issue, this is not really verifiable. Person one's "teaching" may not be person two's "understanding," just a assumption of what it might be. If it really is a learning at all, or just the adoption of a practice without true transfer of substantive awakening. I wonder if you've ever read Tom Robbin's "Half Asleep in Frog Pajamas." He has a few interesting, and I considered to be somewhat enlightening, takes on a koan or two, without being insulting btw. Now, I don't know if it's just clumsy nomenclature to try and translate into English words what the consideration of our "pre-enlightenment" state is, though it is pretty roundly maligned as ignorance. Maybe that's fair to say we're somehow ignorant of this one notion of Buddha nature, however it doesn't always come across that way. Thinking in conceptual terms has resulted in cures to disease and afflictions, along with many other advances to improve the human condition. Now, you can argue there are negative conditions that all this has contributed to, but we do live longer with less disease, and fewer people go hungry, than was experienced by generations past. It might not be this pinnacle of enlightenment that bears the fruit of peace, and perhaps a certain wisdom in some ways, but it's also not ignorance, really. In fact, I can argue that cosmology, astrophysics, and other studies, have revealed exceptional detail about all of nature that, fairly, no religious practice has ever revealed. We tend as humans to seek spiritual peace. A foundation that we're comfortable with for those unanswerable items that can perplex us. For some that includes simply eschewing spirituality altogether, but for me I've found at least much of the conceptual notions I've looked at in Buddhism is at least the most satisfying for someone that has no feeling for the existence of a "higher power" external to myself that has the ego to require a specific kind of obeisance in order to bestow blessings. I can appreciate the apparent egoless nature of Buddhism. Hence I will look deeper. But I may also continue to question, including questioning whether there's honestly a way to know if this transfer of teaching can even be verified as understood the same way by the teacher to the student. Assuming that matters, I guess. I tend to see claims...

Q

That's great to hear Daniel. Fortunately if you are inspired by Zen teaching and practice there are many good places around the world where you can go and find sangha. 🙏

Zen is corrupted Sanskrit word dhyan which when went to China becomes Chan and Zen in Japan. It a meditative yoga practice of ancient Indian temples.

@@lll2282 "corrupted" packs a negative connotation. "Zen" is not a revoicing of "Chan", though the practice is of the same lineage. Zen is the Japanese word for meditation itself. Conflating Buddhism and Yoga is oversimplification to say the least. There was interaction between the Buddha and his native India's Hindu belief systems, but calling Zazen Yoga is like calling English Kione Greek, or calling a cousin by the wrong name because his great great aunt has some similar features.

@@lll2282 little knowledge is a dangerous thing😁😅

Anagrams from my name spells it out Daniel Hazelton Waters All zen ET he own a TARDIS All zen DrWho set a net AI He notarize Dan's wallet She tantalize lore dawn Realized who lent Satan

Thanks Mike! Yeah I was trying to make the kind of intro that I would have wanted but couldn’t find.

Zen itself is anything but comprehensive and clear lol

😄 In general the squirrels don't care much about me. 😄

Rays of light all around A squirrel passes by Does not care about Cheyo

It was a zen squirrel

yo noice

Thanks for your insights, Martyn's Nan. Yes, it is quite subtle and interesting isn't it. 🙂

Thanks for your reply. You're right. This is in the Platform Sutra but I believe I first discovered it in a book of Zen quotations leading me to investigate further,. One translation gives the full account as follows. Shenxiu: The body is the bodhi tree, The mind is like a bright mirror’s stand. Be always diligent in rubbing it Do not let it attract any dust. Huineng: Bodhi is fundamentally without any tree; The bright mirror is also not a stand. Fundamentally there is not a single thing Where could any dust be attracted. McRae 2008

" Be like water " Bruce Lee

@Rock Python Maybe that's why "they " killed him ....

John Mc Rae was a linguist and historian and followed DT Suzuki's rendition and a later ed. of the Platform Sura. You can read the earliest (Tun-huang ed.) in English by Yampolsky, Columbia Univ. press., which appears to be embellished in a number of interesting ways. Instead of `From the beginning, nothing exists,' the Tun-huang text has two different verses: 1. 'Original nature is originally clean and pure. Where is there room for dust?' 2. ' The mirror is originally clean and pure. Where can it be stained by dust.? (p.132) The problem is that `from the beginning not one thing exists' indicates the Lankavatara view of linguistic transcendence which Shen-hsiu's verse extols. What if the whole Platform Sutra is a Prajna-paramita response to the Yogacarins. Alohas and keep up the good work.@@martynsnan

Thanks for your kind comment, I hope you enjoy the other videos as well!

Zen is corrupted Sanskrit word dhyan which when went to China becomes Chan and Zen in Japan. It a meditative yoga practice of ancient Indian temples.

@@lll2282 It is translated, not "corrupted." Chinese and Japanese have different phonology (sound system) from Sanskrit. Chan is an abbreviation of the word chan'na 禪那 which is just the Chinese pronunciation of sanskrit dhyana (pali jhana). The same sutras in the Pali canon were translated into Chinese and have been well preserved for thousands of years.

@@lll2282 The early Chinese translation from Sanskrit had been correct in the North, and was “corrupted” after transmission to the South, particularly area around Guangdong (aka Canton, with differently phonology) where the monumental Sixth Patriarch settled. Apparently, Japanese learnt from there and propagated as Zen to the world.

@@user-ic4ce8xb5v The early Chinese translation from Sanskrit had been correct in the North, and was “corrupted” after transmission to the South, particularly area around Guangdong (aka Canton, with differently phonology) where the monumental Sixth Patriarch settled. Apparently, Japanese learnt from there and propagated as Zen to the world.

So glad to hear it, thanks for your comment. Mexico is beautiful!

You should thank india from where zen Buddhism originated and culturally dominated over china and Japan 😂😂 Bodhidharma was the founder of zen Buddhism. He was a pallava king from South india

@@xijinping9024 👋

Yes in that sense, "sudden" is really gradual. I did a video on that difference here: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/ppakfJSLz8-tgWg.html

Thanks Gregory, yes that fits my experience with Zen meditation as well.

Thanks and welcome!

Sounds good Anthony, each of us has to find our own way ahead with the dharma, so it's good that there are many different approaches available to us. Zen is one I have also found very appealing.

I lived in Japan I my teen years, and knew a very prominent Zen Buddhist priest, he was so kind, he tried to teach me to meditate but I was such a religious Catholic, I was too scared to learn. I regret till now, at 67! I’m so glad to listen to you! Thank you!

Very kind of you to say Jorri, thanks for watching! 🙏

Ha! Yes thanks Don, that's a red squirrel, they like to come around and chat from time to time. 😄

Thanks for your kind words Nathan. I'm glad you're finding the videos useful! 🙂

Glad to hear it, SuomiSongs. Thanks for the news! 🙏

Excellent! 🙏

Thanks Idrissa! I hope so. 🙏

You're very welcome Wendy, that's great to hear. I hope you find what you need!

Yes, I also find the practical instruction of the early teachings to be very useful. Thanks DJ!

🙏😊

Thanks Melodie, glad you found it useful! 🙏

Thanks so much and have a great 2023 as well!

@@DougsDharma And to you, too!

🙏😊

I appreciate that Kit, thanks!

Thanks for your comment, and no worries! 🙏😊

Oh, very nice news Vercina. I hope you enjoy it. 🙏

Try Detroit Zen Center in Hamtramck🙏🏽. Ask for Myung-ju.

Great, glad to hear!

You're very welcome ChiisaiTenshii! I'm glad you found it clear and useful. 🙏

My pleasure xiao mao! 🙏🙂

My pleasure, Richard. 🙏

Wonderful!

Yes, Zen is a beautiful practice Evangelina!

Great, yes. I've done a number of videos comparing different sorts of meditation, but there's always room for more. I'll put it on the list! 🙏

My pleasure!

You’re very welcome Sarah, thanks for watching! I will be coming out with a video about women in Buddhism soon, so keep an eye out for that.

Hi Sarah check out the books “Transmission of the Lamp” and “Buddhism after Patriarchy” by Rita Gross

Yes, it depends on how one holds it.

You’re very welcome Gammadian, glad you found it interesting and useful. 🙏🙂

Very welcome Sid!

You’re very welcome Sam, glad you are finding the material useful! 🙏

Sure, that makes sense to me, I'm drawn to similar routes. What's most important is that you find a congenial approach that works for you, whether it's a mixture of other ideas or not.

Same man

🙏😊

My pleasure Ann!

Thanks Matt, yes I think it's good to know the history and context whether or not we find the particular practice to our liking.

Perfectionism and such-as-ness is two sides of the same coin - abandoning duality may be your awakening 😉 But also Alan Watts’ essays speak on this topic. To achieve Zen’s accidental perfection paradoxically requires years of training and expertise.

You’re very welcome John! Glad to be of service. 🙏

You’re very welcome Fred, thanks for the comment!

😄

It just means if you come across a video on KZfaq about the Buddha or Buddhism, you should disconnect from the internet.

You, sir, are the king of comments! :D :D

《金剛經》云：「若以色見我．以音聲求我．是人行邪道．不能見如來」

The instructions are clear. When you *think* you've become able to perceive the Buddha nature, strike down the thought, the perception, and the misconception will follow.

You're very welcome Stuart, sorry I talked too fast. If you remember what it was that interested you, let me know! 😄

@@DougsDharma I will sir... And again thanks!

Glad you enjoyed! 😄

My pleasure! 🙏

You're very welcome JC, thanks for watching! 😀

You're very welcome, thanks for stopping by. 🙏

You're welcome! 😊

Thanks so much Octoberfurst. Glad you enjoyed. 🙏

You're very welcome Kono! To be clear, Zen is a version of Mahāyāna Buddhism. But Mahāyāna encompasses a lot of other schools as well.

Yes craving is so important ...!

Thanks for the note Liberty Josh. 🙏

My pleasure. 🙏

Thanks for the suggestion Panada Bear!

Yes that would take a bit of research! I agree there are some parallels, and perhaps borrowings.

Oh for sure shawn, there are people who awaken "instantly" in the early texts too. In most cases though I think we are to assume they had a long period of practice beforehand that led up to their awakening. The same can be said of Zen as well, though in early Buddhism that practice was largely (not entirely) cognitive.

Glad you found it useful Shamsundar. 🙏

Thank you so much Frank! 😀

My pleasure. 🙏

🙏😊

Yes there are significant differences in how the final goal is framed in different schools.

Yes, this is one way to look at it, Anton. Thanks.

Thanks Vesna, I'm glad you found it useful!

You're very welcome Frank!

Thanks Flávia! I've actually never read or watched Alan Watts though I know he's spoken a lot about Zen.

Thanks for that Douglas!

Thanks Soham, glad you found it useful. 🙏

You're very welcome Josh, glad to hear.

My pleasure, Mike!

Thanks for the kind words Alfred. Glad you found it useful. 🙏

You're very welcome Carl, thanks for the comment!

My pleasure!

Thanks Billy, very kind of you to say. I'm glad you found it useful. 🙏

🙏😊

My pleasure!

Glad it was helpful! 🙏😊

Yes, that's the essence of it.

Yes I agree that it depends on our personalities, some will gravitate towards one and some towards the other.

Thanks happylum. I'm not surprised that the Treatise on Two Entries and Four Practices isn't widely known anymore. I'd never heard of it before doing research on Ch'an/Zen history. It seems to have been a text that played a central role in Ch'an/Zen's early development but may then have fallen somewhat out of sight.

When I studied zen w were told the Lankaravatara Sutra was used to teach by Bodhidharma himself. The tradition went on till the 5th patriarch Hong Ren. From then zen school uses he Diamond sutra instead. But once you get into sutras, its in a way no longer zen, because zen is supposedly ""beyond the 3 baskets of the Buddha's teachings"". It offers a direct recognition or realization of the nature things beyond words - much like to Buddha and Mahakashapa's Ko-an. Sutras are merely used to ""verify"" the level of realization the practitioner went through - never as a source for realization, especially in zen. Even the zen master himself is just a authority to verify the student's realization. The idea of ""transmission"" is never like in Vajrayana, whereby the teacher can bless and somewhat transmit his realization to his student and the student must have great faith in his teacher. In zen, sometimes the student would even mock the teacher:)

Thanks again happylum, great points about Zen transmission and the use of sutras. 🙏

Thanks Jay! 🙏

Thanks Allen, great to have you here! 🙏

You're most welcome Andre! 🙏

Zen certainly can be a beautiful practice.

Not really, Sumedh. The Best is Early Buddhism ...

Thanks Niklas! It's something that I've had on my list for awhile but will require some further research, since I'm not an expert on Daoism.

@@DougsDharma Yes! I would love to listen to your teachings on Taoism. It would also be interesting if you could compare and contrast early Buddhism or Secular Buddhism with Taoism. Thanks for your videos!

You're very welcome gerald10er! Yes, translation is always going to be a concern with any text from another culture. Though I don't know that Zen is any different or worse in that regard. Many Western Zen teachers use translations regularly.

I had a similar thought to what you get at, not about the translations per se, although that’s part of it, but rather about our cultural and perceptual framework of understanding the world and Buddhism. And even the framework of perception within a given culture changes over time, and is influenced by other cultures, and every individual within that culture is different and brings his or her or their own insight, although still a part of the greater culture and worldview. There’s much here to explore.

You’re very welcome, Daniel!

Thanks Temple of Sticks! 🙏