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@jordany980727 күн бұрын
Definitely enjoy these deeper dives into the texts and scholarly discussions.
2 жыл бұрын
As practitioners of Tranquil Wisdom Insight Meditation, we do practice exclusively the Brahmaviharas to get to all the jhanas, at least to the Base of Nothingness, as it is explained in the Mettasahagata Sutta. From there we do switch our object of meditation to get all the way to nirodha. So from the practical experience of this meditative tradition, we can confirm that the practice of kindness will actually lead to Nirvana. 😊 Great video!
@DougsDharma2 жыл бұрын
Thanks René! Yes, the Brahmavihāras are presented in the early texts as great practices along the path, and traditionally they are closely linked to the jhānas and other concentration practices.
@bam1119652 жыл бұрын
Excellent! Thank you! I have been very confused by Godhika's reference to temporary liberation of the mind. Your explanation makes a lot of sense. I also agree with you on Gombrich's thesis. Practicing the Brahma-viharas are likely necessary but not sufficient to achieve enlightenment. Practicing the Brahma-viharas helps to wash away the effects of negative karma in the present moment and prevent the build up of new negative karma which can prevent enlightenment. So, it's more about stopping the behaviors that prevent enlightenment than it is about doing behaviors that cause enlightenment. When one finds oneself stuck in a deep hole, the first step is to stop digging. The freedom which comes from dwelling in the Brahma-viharas can allow the mind to focus more clearly on understanding the insights necessary to reach enlightenment. Enlightenment is a knowledge - not a book-level knowledge, but an all-consuming without-doubt kind of knowledge. The danger of dwelling in the Brahma-viharas (because there is nothing which is all good nor all bad in Samsara) is that they are so enchanting and overwhelmingly blissful that it is easy to mistake them for the final goal and fail to realize they too are temporary.
@DougsDharma2 жыл бұрын
Yes, well said Brian, thanks! 🙏
@JSambrook2 жыл бұрын
I am grateful for your videos. May you be well, Doug.
@DougsDharma2 жыл бұрын
Thank you kindly, John. You as well. 🙏
@xiaomaozen2 жыл бұрын
Since I'm primarily a practitioner I'm less interested in hardcore scholasticism. But if it's practice-related and can inform/inspire/support my own practice - like in this case - I'm certainly a fan. So yes, this is a great video! Also love your conclusion! 😊🙏🏻
@DougsDharma2 жыл бұрын
Yes the scholasticism may get in the way, but this topic at least theoretically could be critical to our decision to practice one way rather than another.
@bencharits2 жыл бұрын
Thank you for another insightful video. Your rationale and arguments were right on point. There is no teaching that I know of based on Theravada or even other Buddhist traditions that would lead from love and kindness directly to enlightenment. There will always be a step or more after love and kindness. I also think that there is often a confusion with the term "Vimutti" which means liberation. In Thai Theravada tradition, there are more than one type of Vimutti. We often discuss two types of Vimutti, Jeto Vimutti and Panja Vimutti. Jetovimutti is the liberation through Samadhi (concentration). It is like you have said a temporary liberation in the meditative absorption like Jhana. Panja (or Prajna in Sanskrit) Vimutti is liberation through wisdom which is the true permanent liberation as being Arahat. Your explanation was right on point exactly like in Thai Theravada tradition.
@DougsDharma2 жыл бұрын
Yes, thanks! To be fair, Prof. Gombrich is aware of all this, and thinks the later tradition got it wrong. I'm just not sure I see what he sees.
@iamteerapong2 жыл бұрын
The last benefit of loving-kindness in Metta Sutta also seems to be against Gombrich's position. "(11) if one does not penetrate further, one fares on to the brahmā world. When, bhikkhus, the liberation of the mind by loving-kindness has been repeatedly pursued, developed, and cultivated, made a vehicle and basis, carried out, consolidated, and properly undertaken, these eleven benefits are to be expected." (AN 11:15) Thank you very much for your great videos.
@DougsDharma2 жыл бұрын
You're very welcome Tee, thanks for the comment!
@markmerella38942 жыл бұрын
Nice video. One thing I learned is that the four brahma-vihara basically outline the Bodhisattva path and that’s precisely why I find it so attractive. 🙏
@DougsDharma2 жыл бұрын
Well yes, they are closely related.
@xenocrates25592 жыл бұрын
Thanks for this fine video. I found it articulate and well presented. I'm aware of this dispute about the immeasurables and their end result. As someone who has practiced them for decades I have found these disputes of interest. Here are a few observations: First, I'm not convinced that the either/or that is set up in these disputes is valid. I mean that I think it possible that more than one meditative technique could lead to the same result of full liberation. Second, if one takes this view (that there is no either/or involved here) then many of the alleged 'inconsistencies' that arise in this context fall away. Third, I'm not convinced that techniques like insight or meditative absorptions lead to a 'permanent' understanding in contrast to the result of the immeasurables. My observation is that those practicing insight techniques are just as prone to this kind of falling back into ordinary mind. Fourth, my feeling is that the immeasurables, when practiced over a long period, lead to the understanding of what 'immeasurable' means and that this is a feature, or characteristic, of nirvana; I mean that nirvana is immeasurable. My suggestion is that becoming more and more grounded in the understanding of the immeasurable itself is becoming more and more acquainted with nirvana and that this is why the practice of the immeasurables can lead to permanent liberation. Again, this is not a critique of other techniques; it is, rather, an apology for the idea of the efficacy of the immeasurables for full liberation. // Thanks for this thoughtful presentation and for all of your dedicated teaching.
@DougsDharma2 жыл бұрын
🙏 🙂
@chriskaplan6109 Жыл бұрын
I agree with your wise perspective on this. It may not get us all the way there on its own, but it certainly doesn't hurt. Not bringing up and engaging with the counterpoints is a pretty serious oversight, as I was advised the same when earning my philosophy degree. Great video Doug!
@DougsDharma Жыл бұрын
Thanks so much Chris! 🙏
@Giantcrabz2 жыл бұрын
I love scholarly deep dives. I've always been a nerd for philosophical arguments
@DougsDharma2 жыл бұрын
😄Me too, though they can be pretty hard-going sometimes!
@BuddhistTushar2 жыл бұрын
I like these type of videos. Plz don't stop just bcz some people won't like it
@DougsDharma2 жыл бұрын
No worries, T G. I'll make them when I have a good topic to deal with! 😄
@uliuli89972 жыл бұрын
Reminds me of when I visited my friend who lived by the beach. I would walk to her place by the Ocean. What a pleasant trip to her house. Seeing people...watching the Ocean waves...clouds...smelling the salt water... hearing the Sea gulls...warm Sun on my face...Wind at my back... In all...a pleasant trip going to see her. But...on occaison... I'd make the Journey...and she wasn't Home. Life. But...I made the Journey. Even if she was Not home...I thoroughly enjoyed the Journey to her house. I didn't achieve my Goal...it was always a GREAT Journey. Regardless of the outcome. But...it was better when she was home.📿🙏
@DougsDharma2 жыл бұрын
Yes! It's great to get pleasure on the journey as well, though even that is only fleeting.
@handynas65292 жыл бұрын
Amazing video Doug!!! I agree with you that we should be looking at practices such as loving kindness and compassion as paramount at least as a foundation or a starter for our eventual path towards ultimate liberation. I view these as what I call the softening of the heart type of practice that leads you one step at a time towards the completion of the 8 fold path
@DougsDharma2 жыл бұрын
Yes absolutely! Thanks handy. 🙏😊
@downpour212 жыл бұрын
Thanks for another video Doug, I absolutely love this style of video where you go in depth it’s really compelling and makes for great watching as always!
@DougsDharma2 жыл бұрын
Thanks so much, Sunset!
@paulomoreira9957 ай бұрын
I love the Topic.
@DougsDharma7 ай бұрын
Glad to hear!
@yrasphong Жыл бұрын
🙏🙏🙏 Thank u Doug for doing what u do..through u I have a way better understanding of Buddha and the path to enlightenment through compassion,love and kindness
@DougsDharma Жыл бұрын
You're very welcome! 🙏😊
@nousinmotu2 жыл бұрын
Thanks for your video Doug, I really enjoyed it. Is it too scholarly or theoretical you ask? Our practice is our views and thoughts, our words and our actions so this seems like such an important question. Too important not to talk about. My interest is primarily as a practioner too, not a scholar. Selfishness and ignorance are characteristic behaviours of the mind in our state of delusion. Even virtuous actions performed by the unenlightened mind will also have a root in selfishness, it seems to me. Maybe not an obvious selfishness, but a feeling that one is happier doing a good thing, or improved in some way by doing it or that some transactional reward is being gained. How can actions of an unenlightened thing cause enlightenment, which it would seem is not a prize or a goal that can be 'done' or achieved but a kind of realisation, a knowledge of a reality prior to and before the veiling of the mind. So yes, your conclusion makes sense. I am quite willing to agree also that though virtuous action doesn't cause enlightenment, non-virtuous action would likely prevent it. So to find a way alongside performing those virtues to transcend the unenlightened mind, like our dharma practice, self inquiry or religious surrender, depending on the chosen path.
@DougsDharma2 жыл бұрын
Yes, I agree Peter! It's hard to practice a completely pure form of virtue or kindness, but that's the aim anyway.
@garyriding52322 жыл бұрын
Thank you, Doug, I found your argument to be convincing. I enjoy a lot of work by Dr Gombrich, but he sometimes appears to stretch his arguments farther than the evidence would allow.
@DougsDharma2 жыл бұрын
Yes, thanks Gary. To be clear, I really like Prof. Gombrich's work in general, and he seems a very kind and able teacher.
@Dunna2 жыл бұрын
Ven. K. Nanananda's book "Deliverance of the heart" has a nice account on practicing Brahmaviharas in the Buddhist context.
@DougsDharma2 жыл бұрын
Great, thanks Dunna.
@mightylotan2 жыл бұрын
I agree with your arguments against his claim
@DougsDharma2 жыл бұрын
🙏😊
@stephenrizzo2 жыл бұрын
I think your take on this particular point Gombrich’s makes is well taken. I do , however, agree with him that there seems to be many different schools of thought represented in the canon. While harmonizations can sometimes be made credibly, as you pointed out here, sometimes harmonizations strain credulity to the point where someone has to be an inerrantist to believe them. Sometimes the old saw that the Buddha taught things differently to different people doesn’t cut it, like when the is an outright contradiction or gross incongruency. Sometimes saying it was put in later by someone else explains what we see better.
@DougsDharma2 жыл бұрын
Sure, absolutely. Just because we can harmonize one thing doesn't necessarily mean we can harmonize others equally well.
@senerzen2 жыл бұрын
Could you give an example? I havent read the whole Pali canon but as far as I can tell, it seems pretty consistent to me. I am very interested in hearing things I havent considered or known before. So, what do you mean with different school of thought?
@stephenrizzo2 жыл бұрын
@@senerzen since this is a channel on Secular Buddhism I will point out incongruences related to that, but first I want to provide an example of congruence. The Culamalunkya Sutta and the Kalama Sutta harmonize beautifully. The former has the Buddha saying he will not declare if the vital facility is identical with the body or not, or whether the Perfect One lives on after death or not. These appear to show the Buddha unwilling to make a pronouncement about rebirth. The latter begins each of the consolations related to rebirth with a big IF. This is exactly what we would expect given the former. Likewise, the two are incongruent with all pronouncements of knowledge of what happens after death that appear in too many suttas to name. I suppose you could say the Buddha changed his mind latter, but I would think that somewhere that would be stated given the importance. Note: jiva or vital facility is what is reborn, at least in Jainism. If the jiva is the body it would seem to imply no rebirth. If it did it would seem to imply resurrection. I know that this is controversial, but that is the whole point.
@senerzen2 жыл бұрын
@@stephenrizzo Thanks for the explanation. I agree that it is unlikely that Buddha changed his mind for the reason you mention. It is indeed possible that there were competing schools providing their own suttas. But there is a third possibility: upaya kusala Maybe Buddha was adjusting his teachings according to the understanding of each individual. As an example I would like to point out to the Ananda Sutta. An outsider named Vacchagota asks Buddha if there is a self. He refuses to answer. After that person leaves, Ananda asks Buddha why he didn't answer. He gives four reasons. Each time, starts with "being asked by Vacchagota,..." implying that if he had been asked by someone else, the answer might have been different. Among those reasons, the third reason, is that if he had said there was a self, that would have contradicted his teaching of no-self. So, his teaching is ultimately "No-Self". But he refused to state it that way to that specific person because he would misinterpret it. That is the whole message of that sutta. Even when speaking in English, Christians, musims, atheists, Marxists, capitalists etc are all speaking different languages. They might think they are speaking about the same thing because they are using the same word, without realizing their definitions are different. Or sometimes they use different words, not realizing they mean the same thing. It amazes me to see Buddha having such a sophisticated understanding and adjusting to the person he is talking to. The problem is that, for us coming 2500 years later and looking at things out of context and when compared to other teachings given to different people at different times, they seem contradictory. I believe everything can be harmonized. My interpretation of Buddha's teaching is that; he taught reincarnation but reincarnation is not essential to believe in and he refused to push it on skeptical disciples and outsiders. It is a knowledge that comes through experience, namely through remembering one's past lives. There is no need to believe in it as one would KNOW it when the time comes. There is no need to get obsessed with speculation and get entangled in a trap of views. Enough suffering exists in current life to justify a spiritual life, hence the arrow simile. What would we first do if got shot with an arrow? Certainly we would be looking to eliminate suffering instead of speculation. Lack of believe is the last of the five hindrances but I think this is in reference to the practice and not any dogma. Because believe in any dogma is attachment to that view, one of the four attachments to overcome. One needs to believe in the practice, that it is possible to overcome suffering and believe in himself that he can do it. In some suttas, denying the existence of the next life is counted as wrong view. Technically this might be true but I don't see this as a requirement for practice. This is a very short line vs whole suttas with the message saying don't believe in things just because they are in the texts but rely on your own experience. Remembering past lives is that experience. This way, everything is in line. Sure, maybe there were different schools and I am over-interpreting this. But when I see a contradiction and think about how this might be harmonized with the rest and find a solution, I also find textual references indicating my solution is correct, which gives me confidence that this is not me forcing solutions. In the Ananda sutta mentioned above, the 3rd reason is a clear indication of what the actual teaching is (No-Self) yet Buddha refuses to state it for the reason explained in number 4; that specific person would misinterpret it. How he would misinterpret the answer is also explained in reasons 1 and 2. 1) If Buddha had said there was a self, the person asking the question would have jumped to the conclusion that Buddha was teaching an eternal unchanging soul. 2) If he had said no-self, he would have been misunderstood as being a materialist. So, he chose not to answer. People have preconceived notions and we can't ignore the possibility that our definitions might be different. We need to agree on definitions to be able to communicate. Once I was able to speak many languages (christian/hindu/materialist/anarchist/etc), when speaking with other people, it is usually easier to adapt their terminology while expressing my point rather than trying to teach or impose my definitions. Buddha is the only other person I'm aware of who does this. In one text Buddha says "I don't argue with the world. The world argues with me."
@stephenrizzo2 жыл бұрын
@@senerzen I think we will have to agree to disagree on this. That is okay as I don’t mean to change your mind. I am just pointing out an incongruity. I think there is a difference between remaining silent because one individual will be confused and saying “I do not declare” which implies for everyone. I think “I do not disagree with the world” could mean I don’t know, you may be right and others were unwilling to accept his unwillingness to declare a side like as was the case in the Culamalunkya-sutta.
@tormunnvii33172 жыл бұрын
Love the scholarship 😉
@DougsDharma2 жыл бұрын
😄Yes it can be fun to learn!
@Magnulus76 Жыл бұрын
In regards to Gombrich's remarks about cetovimutti = nibbana, I think he makes a good case esp. considering the Karaniya Metta Sutta concludes by saying that somebody who perfects the practice of metta will not be born again in this world. At the very least, it implies non-retrogression along the path of the Buddha's teaching. So I think there's some support for Gombrich's interpretation, and that later Theravadin scholars over-systematized the Buddha's teachings (a common issue in many religions traditions, BTW). I especially agree with Gobrich that Theravada tends to interpret the Buddha's teachings cosmologically to the exclusive of other ways of understanding the Buddha's teachings. In fact, when I first read the Karaniya Metta Sutta, Gombrich's interpretation was the most immediately obvious to me, even though I had not yet encountered Gombrich as a scholar, I had come away with the same conclusions. It's important to keep in mind that Gombrich is using the historical critical method. That means he takes a skeptical eye to inherited religious traditions and religious texts, and committed to using the common critical tools accepted in western academia. It's an approach that's been reasonably successful in other fields of textual and religious studies in other traditions, and might explain why it seems that he overlooks other texts in the Pali canon. It was evident to me, even studying it at a cursory glance as a skeptical layman, that the Pali canon contains things that are cosmological explanations, extrapolations, and later accretions that were added in later, and are not in fact the Buddha's original teachings. In the same way, scholars can know that the Donation of Constantine wasn't actually written by Constantine, or that some of the epistles in the New Testament likely were not in fact written by St. Paul, but somebody imitating his style (possibly a student, for instance).
@DougsDharma Жыл бұрын
Yes, though we have to also resist the temptation to decide that material with which we are not in agreement, or which is not well accepted nowadays, must be a later accretion, particularly if it is attested in all early recensions.
@uliuli89972 жыл бұрын
As a Tao Chi Chuan practitioner of 50 years plus...my Xi (Teacher) constantly informed me...This is how WHITE CLOUDY HANDS Tai Chi Chuan is practiced...Period. If you expect other things...this is not for you. Ever Tai Chi Chuan teacher...teaches their brand...their style. Even if you don't get what you want and expect....You're still doing Tai Chi Chuan. Grandma used to say....Pay your nickel...make your choice.
@DougsDharma2 жыл бұрын
That's right Uli. Each of us has our own perspective.
@magicaree2 жыл бұрын
Doug have you read Jack Kornfields “After the ecstasy, the laundry”. He begins by stating that enlightenment doesn’t last and I find that disturbingly cynical for someone who was a monk and is considered a prominent figure in Buddhism. Would love to know what your thoughts are on this.
@DougsDharma2 жыл бұрын
I don't think I've read that one. It sounds a little like the Oxherding Pictures in Zen. I think though that if he's writing from his own experience, he's probably not discussing enlightenment per se, but rather something more like stream-entry. That is, he's discussing a temporary glimpse of enlightenment rather than full enlightenment.
@uliuli2012 жыл бұрын
Maybe...Maybe not. But what Path would NOT benefit from Kindness???
@DougsDharma2 жыл бұрын
True!
@RustyJoe2 жыл бұрын
To me it depends upon one’s definition of nirvana. I believe the Buddha, coming from Vedic tradition, saw nirvana as liberation from Samsara. An agnostic like me might see it as liberation from fear of the unknowable, or contentment with existence on the universes terms. Kindness will foster serenity which might help one with acceptance, but not lead directly to acceptance. It could however stack the karmic deck in favor of one seeking a way off the wheel.
@DougsDharma2 жыл бұрын
Well yes, the Buddha did have a notion of nirvana as liberation from samsara, though in this-life terms he saw it as the ending of greed, hatred, and delusion.
@RustyJoe2 жыл бұрын
@@DougsDharma all necessary to free ones essence, but loving kindness can lead directly to those things. Showing kindness can lead to openness, openness leads to understanding, leads to compassion, dispels delusion. You may have made an argument for the professor’s view 😉
@nayanmalig2 жыл бұрын
Today I helped an old woman buy breakfast .... Took me a minute ... But it was more refreshing and satisfying than ten hours of selfish meditation ... To put it bluntly.
@DougsDharma2 жыл бұрын
It's wonderful you did such a good deed. I'd say that any meditation that is selfish isn't worth a moment of our time, much less ten hours.
@5piles2 жыл бұрын
20:30 no, at access concentration / shamata the perfectly single-pointed mind of the desire realm has become suitable to be conjoined with the jhana factors. that is what shamata is and that is how one actually moves into the form realm. there, freedom from the 5 hindrances abides permanently both in and out of meditation sessions. this is case by the time of basic shamata where one can already sit in single-pointed concentration effortlessly for 4h, let alone by the time one reaches 1st jhana where one remain in perfect samadhi effortlessly for 24h straight
@umarkhayam44032 жыл бұрын
Sadhu....
@DougsDharma2 жыл бұрын
🙏
@harshanagahawatta88602 жыл бұрын
scholastic work is enriching for professors, even for monastices, who have little experience with practice (Maga-pala). it is well known among practitioners, of "sathara (4) kamatahan", 'Metthanu sati' is one out of four as a samatha meditation, but without 'Vidarshana', i.e., others three (Buddanu sati, Marananu sati, and Asubanu sati) practitioner will not be able to turn 'samudaya' (ill- will, delusion) to " 'Norodaya'. Also one would wonder, if professors argument has any merits (attained Nirvana by parcting Bhrama vihara along), what is the purpose of "Satara satipattana MN10/DN22 sutta" perhaps the most important sutta in the pali canon. we should encourage academics, scholars to critical analyse these 2500 year old texts (only known in the west since 1900', only 120 years ago), but not to the point of their own theories which leads to pure speculation. The practitioners of the path (Maga-pala) have very different experience than academics, and scholars, who have different interests in these teachings.
@DougsDharma2 жыл бұрын
It could well be Harsha, though to be fair to Prof. Gombrich, he is familiar with the Satipaṭṭhāna suttas you mention.
@metafisicacibernetica2 жыл бұрын
Interessante...
@yongjiean99802 жыл бұрын
You need wisdom...the practice of the 4 apamanas can lead to the Jhanas where you can use this mental clarity to investigate the true nature of phenomena
@DougsDharma2 жыл бұрын
Yes that's right. It's part of the path.
@Atma.Nishta Жыл бұрын
is this the same quote as quoted at 7:49 , _Therefore, bhikkhus, you should train yourselves thus: ‘We will develop and cultivate the liberation of mind by lovingkindness, make it our vehicle, make it our basis, stabilize it, exercise ourselves in it, and fully perfect it.’ Thus should you train yourselves._ (Samyutta Nikaya)..... *if no, it adds to the confusion*
@DougsDharma Жыл бұрын
I think that's a different quote.
@Sky-and-Earth2 жыл бұрын
As long as one is only ‘practicing’ kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy, and equanimity may take very very long to become enlightened; may not ever become so. The one who is enlightened don’t have to ‘practice’ anything; these all will be ‘innate’ then.
@DougsDharma2 жыл бұрын
Ah yes, very true. The enlightened person is beyond practicing. It is through practice that one gets beyond practice.
@paulbail14512 жыл бұрын
I like deeper dives. Weeds are fine
@DougsDharma2 жыл бұрын
😄Thanks Paul, glad to hear it!
@SoyElta2 жыл бұрын
Responding to the counter argument like St Thomas Aquinas is the best way to do western philosophy in my opinion.
@DougsDharma2 жыл бұрын
How is that?
@SoyElta2 жыл бұрын
@@DougsDharma at the end you mention talking about the counter arguments to an argument during your discussion. It is my understanding that this method of responding to your critics.in the text was by in large invented by Aquinas. And I feel like it is the right way to go about philosophy as do you.
@shatveekareddy34972 жыл бұрын
Nirvana - meaning ?
@DougsDharma2 жыл бұрын
The complete and permanent cessation of greed, hatred, and delusion.
@shatveekareddy34972 жыл бұрын
@@DougsDharma ho ,, some one told to me nirvana means awakening or enlightment , can explain to me ,, please sir
@Upstreamprovider2 жыл бұрын
Some Dzogchen sources assert bodhicitta IS enlightenment.
@DougsDharma2 жыл бұрын
Interesting, I'm not sure how to understand that idea.
@aucontraire5932 жыл бұрын
@@DougsDharma Dogen similarly said that sitting in Zazen is not a method to enlightenment, but rather enlightenment itself if practiced sincerely.
@Giantcrabz2 жыл бұрын
Isn't that a much later development within Buddhism though?
@aucontraire5932 жыл бұрын
@@Giantcrabz Perhaps, but Zen often traces it's lineage as a continuous interpersonal transmission from the Buddha himself. Some recognize the precursors of an 'objectless' meditation from themes in the Satipatthana sutra.
@Upstreamprovider2 жыл бұрын
@@DougsDharma Nor I. But I'm not enlightened, so I wouldn't.