Get the show notes and transcript www.foundmyfitness.com/episodes/martin-gibala 00:00:00 - In this episode 00:01:15 - Introduction 00:03:22 - What is high-intensity training? 00:04:15 - Zone 2 vs. HIIT for VO2 max - which is better? 00:05:44 - The vital role of vigorous exercise 00:07:02 - Why VO2 max matters for longevity 00:10:07 - Why athletes vs. exercisers benefit from different intensity distributions 00:14:31 - Measuring maximum heart rate and VO2 max 00:22:53 - How the heart adapts to HIIT to increase VO2 max 00:28:09 - Why vigorous exercise accelerates mitochondrial adaptation 00:32:28 - Enhancing fat oxidation and mitochondrial growth with vigorous exercise 00:36:44 - How intensive exercise boosts fat breakdown 00:38:18 - Is high-intensity exercise better for autophagy than fasting? 00:47:36 - Exercise snacks 00:50:15 - Why 'choosing the stairs' reduces early death (VILPA study) 00:53:01 - Protocol for VO2 max 00:58:12 - The effect of HIIT on muscle fiber types 01:02:40 - How aging effects muscle fibers 01:06:31 - Does high-intensity training produce an “afterburn effect?" 01:08:35 - Why vigorous workouts are better for BDNF and cognition 01:15:37 - Anti-metastatic cancer effects 01:42:45 - Wingate training vs. reHIIT - a comparison of protocols 01:48:00 - Perceived exertion vs. HRmax 01:51:45 - Interval walking for people with type 2 diabetes 01:53:28 - Are there contradictions for HIIT? 01:57:28 - Why preconditioning reduces risks from exercise 02:03:06 - Can resistance training be a type of aerobic exercise? 02:08:46 - Does cardio and strength training interfere with each other? 02:11:07 - How many minutes per week of high-intensity training? 02:19:20 - Are there sex differences in high-intensity training? 02:19:20 - Misconceptions on high-intensity interval training for women 02:20:04 - Should post-menopausal women do H.I.I.T.? 02:20:09 - Does intense exercise raise cortisol? 02:26:23 - Bone density and osteoarthritis 02:29:02 - Atrial fibrillation risk 02:31:35 - Hypoxic training and blood flow restriction 02:33:07 - Tips for training with joint issues

Thanks to Dr. Gibala and Dr. Patrick for a densely packed useful conversation.

This was outstanding and unexpectedly reassuring. I have had more knee injuries than I would like; it was not only reassuring to hear that I can still pursue HIIT, but I was able to hear it from an expert who has learned to navigate those issues. It is -not- easy.

Spot on. I was eating one meal a day at 1600 hrs , working out intensively 6 days per week for 2 hours each time but didn’t lose an ounce for 10 years. Rest of the time super stressed, sitting in front of excel sheets and doing far too much weightlifting. Changed to low intensity carb, deep breathing in the steam room . Weights all - boggy just once every 2 weeks . Lost 25 KGS of visceral fat in 2 months

Is this 2 hours and 45 minutes ??? 😲😲😲 We will all LOVE the person who makes a summary of it in bullet format 🙂 ❤

Thanks Dr Rhonda...been following you for years and your work is invaluable...

Perfect timing. This time of year is a major PITA. I change my method and schedule every year, I was doing sprint HIIT in the spring, have to quit because of the heat, then the pool shuts down every September for maintenance, so in September it was diminished power and strength training. I was already excited for the first of October, this cranked it up at least a notch. TX Dr Rhonda!❤

Very interesting stuff. Especially to a masters runner, where the emphasis needs to shift towards more quality and less volume in order to stay injury free, and grappling with the ever present desire to maximize performance while muscle mass inevitably decreases year to year. All the same, the idea of trying to reduce exercise to the minimum amount of time to gain VO2max benefits is very strange to me. The #1 reason I put in the time in zone 1&2 is for what it does for my mood and focus.

After 30 years of bodybuilding (naturally), I will tell you that once I found Mike Mentzers style of training (HIIT), it was a game changer. For 28 of those years I worked out 5x per week for hours on end. Once I followed the Mentzer HIIT, I was working out 2x per week for 20 minutes and the results have been incredible. At 45 years old, I’m not turning back to 5x per week for hours on end. HIIT is the way to go. I’ve seen more improvements than ever before.

This is absolutely brilliant. Thank you DR Rhonda and DR Martin

OMG you have AMAZING closed captions. THANK YOUUUUUU

9/23 10:30am thank you so much for this episode it really spoke to me as I have a heart condition and do primarily low to moderate exercise but a lot!!! I’m an ultra runner! You touched on what I think about ALL the time! I do more low to moderate and do try to sprinkle in some high intensity. But not a lot. I feel that and have had good results. Thanks again!!!!

Esta entrevista es oro puro! Un nuevo suscriptor al canal. Muy agradecido por compartir entrevistas de científicos serios como,entre otros,Martin gibala,Stuart Philips y Brad schoenfeld. Saludos!

Yes🎉 that's why we developed our app! We are introducing physical activity (even vigorous ones) in between daily task and work, without impacting your schedule and taking advantage of the synergic effect on 🧠!❤

This is great stuff. Very informative. My understanding is that Zone 2 training, however, is not for increasing VO2 max, its to train your body to improve your metabolic efficiency, i.e., to preferentially burn fat instead of glucose. The guest talks about how close you can work to the ceiling for the longest time, but it seems there are (at least) 2 relevant ceilings. One is clearly VO2 max, but the transition point between burning a practically unlimited supply of fat and a strictly limited supply of carbohydrate also seems important.

Super high intensity training S-H-I-T

Most programs that are designed in the fitness industry are not HIIT it is High Intensity Steady State. TABATA is a High Intensity Steady State because the W:R is not sufficient enough to allow recovery and restoration of substrates. The programming is the problem- not the research. The research is concrete and there are a vast array of variables we can use to program for people to meet their needs. Coaching and programming are 2 aspects that are crucial to finding the right “fit” for people. Dr. Gibala is a colleague of mine and we are actively working on studies together. It is my company that he mentioned who he is working with.

Interesting how these notions change over time. In 1991 I did VO2 twice at Colorado Springs Olympic training center. They were doing drug performance testing and my VO2 were 78 and 81. Coaches of those days said VO2 was set and couldn’t be improved. Their suggestion was to work to improve my efficiency when cycling as an avid/competitive rider. I will share high intensity is rarely touched by most. ALL OUT interesting place to explore

Astonishing content Dr. Rhonda Patrick 💯💯 Thanks to share your knowledge, time and joy with us 🥳 God bless you girl! Thumbs Up from Brazil girl, yeeeh 👍👍👍

Really excellent discussion. Very informative and it was wonderful to have all the relevant citations showing (must have been much work). Great index, also. Thank you.

Thank you so much for your help and advice, I really appreciate your job. I wish you happiness and peace under the sky of prosperity. All the best. Take care and have a good time

Great podcast! Thank you! Can we have one on colesterol levels and how to drop it please ?

Excellent info for HIIT enthusiasts. Lifelong health conscience that LEVELED UP on my vo2 max after incorporating HIIT... LOVE Dr. Rhonda Thank YOU!

Great to see Michael Stipe post R.E.M

outstanding. Thought he would sing "everybody hurts" or "losing my religion" but this was good on VO2Max.

I have 90 year olds in therapy where I have improved wattage outputs on a NuStep leg sprints from 15-30 watts initially to 250-300 watts approximately 6 weeks later. I have them do 3-5 sprints with 3-5min rest. I let them sprint to their peak output and stop them when I start seeing the wattage drop. This takes 15-20sec or so. They usually improve each session.

would be good first to explain what is vo2 max and why we need it

Thanks for the excellent production work on your informative videos. This one in particular covered an impressive range of topics.

I find it so valuable. Thanks both of you.

thanks very much for the outstanding podcast Dr Rhonda, and for sharing your personal journey moving from Tabata style training to HIIT....i was wondering how you were managing to survive 5 HIIT sessions, now i know! ... the pain cave and post-session recovery associated with 6-8(20/10) Tabata are quite different compared to those arising from 2-5 minute work intervals @ true 80% just wondering if, next time you cover this topic, could you please include some discussion on: 1. the importance of warming up properly before high intensity exertion, and cooling down afterwards (esp whether length and intensity of warm-up depends on the protocol) 2. the significance of exercise selection (e.g. airdyne v running v swimming) to an athlete's ability to produce consistent performance with low injury risk across the minimum recommended HIIT dose (say, 3x weekly), including whether exercises with mainly concentric force production should be preferred (eg airdyne, sled sprints, maybe some hill sprints) 3. techniques for titrating effort during intervals of various durations...to this end, in my experience it's both physiologically and psychologically easier for ex-sprint athletes (eg kayak 500m-1000m, sprinters 400m etc) to do 'true' 2-4/5 minute 80%+ intervals because the duration matches the events they've trained and raced thousands of time. to this end, when the gun goes, they don't build progressively (even for the first 30 seconds) - they drop the hammer for, say, 20 seconds; down- regulate slightly to facilitate lactate clearance; then spend the remainder of the race (interval) "dancing" around Vo2max/Vo2max+. obviously, a one-off race demands more than 4 repeats with 3 minutes rest in between, but you get the idea! 4. what the research indicates about rest interval duration and intensity (eg, the Norwegians are prescribing 3 minutes @70% in their 4x4 because it maximises lactate clearance specific to a 4 minute work interval)..... currently, the general recommendations seem very broad, which novices may view as flexible & hence helpful, but which more athletic people may view as frustrating when psyching themselves for a true 80%+ session.....eg. 3 mins recovery @70% is vastly different to 4 mins @ 50% in terms of the actual and perceived exertion required to maintain consistent power output during the subsequent work interval 5. the argument that HIIT is somewhat of a false economy - not just because studies omit or downplay the obligatory warm up and cool down periods - but because they never seem to take into account the time taken for systemic recovery post-session, especially among genpop and especially novices. For example, anyone who thinks they can do a true Norwegian 4x4, then hop off an airdyne, shower, dress and pop off to work like they usually do after a 30 minute level 2 run will be in for a surprise. After spending 3-5 minutes lying on the ground hyperventilating, there will likely be 10-15 minutes of lightheadedness during which cognitive function will feel impaired rather than enhanced. It'll take another 20 minutes to stop perspiring, esp if they're fit. Bar the sweating, their recovery experience will improve over time. That said, it's probably wise to forewarn novices in particular in order to facilitate session planning and drive home the level of effort that's truly required in "all-out" work intervals of 2-5 minutes duration best regards and thanks again

Zone 2 is efficiency. Hiit is Max volume. A gas tank can both get more out of the fuel it stores as well as store more of fuel. Hiit is additional to zone 2 not to replace it. I'm not am expert but that's what has been explained before. To see zone 2 being compared here is misinforming

Thank you ❤ brilliant information as always 🙏

Variability of training stress is optimization of health- metabolic and mechanical flexibility is crucial for health. Here is the coolest part about HEALTH and LONGEVITY…. VARIABILITY IS SPECIFICITY and the KEY to OPTIMIZATION of Health and Performance

I suppose the question I might expect would be - how do you know if you run out of endurance before you reach the max HR? Or is the lack of endurance simply the current limiter on HR until that endurance can be reached? There's a lot of folks, for whatever reason, aren't going to be able to run 400m without stopping, let alone running it full speed.

super informative session, thanks a lot!

With regards to Cortisol, a few years ago I developed a strange pattern of not having good sleep on days of higher intensity exercise be it weights or cardio. It took awhile to connect the dots as the doctor immediately told me I had anxiety and wanted to give me pills. I took 6 weeks off any high intensity and my sleep went back to normal. I restarted higher intensity exercise and my sleep went to sh*t again within a week. It seems that my stress hormones aren't coming down fast enough after exercise. Now I only do two higher intensity days a week and take 10mg propranolol and a very low dose quarter or half of a anti-represent pill and my sleep is still slightly disturbed, but I can fall back to sleep easily whereas without the pills it's hard to fall asleep and I wake up at 4am and there's little chance of getting back to sleep.

There are studies that show identical adaptations across the board in both “strength/hypertrophy” and “cardiovascular fitness” parameters, for example comparing bike sprints and high effort leg press sets. It means the intensity/effort gives you pretty much all adaptations, and the modality is up to you. Of course over time the hypertrophy benefits will be better from resistance training because it is easier to use progressive overload than in swimming or biking. Also with resistance training you can truly engage all muscles and cause muscle specific adaptations, while biking would largely limit those to your legs. While aerobic benefits will be identical from both approaches. The choice is yours.

How about the difference caused by say KETO and the availability of ketones versus High Carb and glucose availability?

So glad to see this video. My running has recently become challenging for reasons unknown.....very hard to move out of Zone 2 for any length of time, which is a new problem for me. I'm concerned about my VO2 max, so maybe this video will help.

I was doing my last exercise snack of the day while he started to talk about that.

Wonderful video and information, thank you 🙏

Please re-check your segment timestamps in the Description. For example, it currently shows 00:50:27 for "Exercise snacks", but that actually begins at 47:33. Maybe all are shifted because of including "In this episode" at 00:00:00. THANKS!

Great info. Must sit less and sleep more... i basically need to change careers to achieve health it sounds like. Working on it.

What are the long term effects of high levels of aerobic exercise on cardiometabolic health of elite athletes. Immune system and respiration for example?

Hey Ronda have you ever experimented with ginger tea? Thanks!

Is HIIT better than regular walking/jogging for blood pressure?

With regards to brain health and feeling 'sharper' etc after high intensity, is that not just stress hormones? fight or flight activation similar to how people talk about the clarity of mind after a cold shower?

I do HIIT on a rebounder and I do HIIT weight lifting. My body is tight and toned.

Great interview,! I have switched my training over to zone two, I was doing a lot of zone four and five intervals on my echo bike with a good response VO2 max. After this I want to switch over back to the intervals. Can you tell me where you get your portable blood lactate machine please? I had a blood lactate test done to determine my heart rate zones would love to have my own so that I can dial-in!

Isn't classic heavy weight training "HIIT"?

How influential is the intensity during the low intensity part of HIIT ? Let's say I am doing something like: 2 minutes low intensity, 20 second high intensity, repeat 3 times. What difference does it make if I walk during the low intensity part or jog at a comfortable pace ?

Also if you want to run faster you need to generate power from the legs,. so run less and get into the gym and do single leg work you will generate more power and this will allow you to run faster it is not all about cardio!

I feel the best measure of fitness progression is that if your power output is increasing at the same heart rate your program is working. You don’t need to measure vo2max.

I did wind sprints when running track in the mid 90's. Run all out for 1/4 of the track then jog 1/4 and repeat. Seems like that was HIIT training.

What type of program/set - rep protocol would be good for men and women over the age of 60? Non-competiitve, former athletes looking to increase strength and cardio.

What I find particularly interesting which I'm about to test in more detail - is how calisthenic exercises at high repetitions affect Vo2 max and compares with HIIT - eg 3 sets of dips for 20 reps or 3 sets of pressups for 25 reps

At 23:17 there is a caption which says that HR max does not increase with training" - which contradicts everything I thought about it. Quick search seems to confirm that statement. I am 65yo who have never been an athlete in any sport. My HR max should be around 155 by basic age-based formulae, or 169 by HUNT formulae. But I regularly exercise with HR in 175-185 range. I thought it was because I've been exercising all my life. If exercise doesn't increase HR max, I wonder what makes mine so high, and it is actually a bad thing, not good as I thought?

Regarding how vo2max (maximum amount of o2 can be utilized) is mostly determined by the delivery side ( maximum cardiac output rate : stroke volume x heart rate) rather than the the utilization side (how well can muscles/mitochondria pull that oxygen from the blood)... isn't there a 3rd component of how well you the your lungs can pull the oxygen from the air? For example, Gary Brecka recommends using Hypermax (oxygen concentrator) when doing high intensity exercise! Regarding maximum heart rate (220-age) and using the worldfitnesslevel to estimate vo2max... any thoughts on grip-strength as a longevity marker?

Still need a good endurance base before any really high intensity efforts.

Can we do resistance training with weights and calisthenics type of functional training on the same day?

21:38 shout out to 90’s schooling with the pacer test!

what about the J curve? What about exercise over max heart rate ? like 90 0r 100% for short intervals??????

More pain... More gain... The right kind pain. Hiit is a tough proposition.

Very interesting indeed and have heard about these short bursts of 1min stuff before, but I'm not going to get sweaty 5 times a day 😂. 1min is like a 400m sprint/run and I think I'd break out in a sweat after that.

Great episode! I'd love to interview both of you on my podcast ❤. Question : how High intensity Resistance training fits into the equation? Training this way to failure should produce many similar effect then HIIT.

While this is a great interview the net is spread very vast and it is more of a motivational video than giving concrete specific advice to specific group of people which could have been accommodated in this length of time. Every answer is "It depends ...." and how doing very little can still do wonders for you. This is mushy oatmeal advice as opposed to thunderstorm and lightening.

Rather surprised that VILPA still had benefit in exercisers

Welp, great interview, I was all in until the part about coronary calcification. Where did that come from? After so many positive aspects of interval training were discussed, my stomach sank to my feet when they agreed about the possible negative, chiefly heart calcification. It's not a total deal beaker for me, but now it gives me pause to go all out.

Thanks!

the VILPA study sounds interesting, but I think that is has a bias, becasuse VILPA is done more by healtyh people with lower BMIs, so it not only their daily excercise it has dependencies so no surprise here.

My VO2 MAx is 60 as measured by my Garmin I am 58 and 80% of my training is MAF Training in Low Zone 2 for me 100-120 beats the only time I go hard is racing i.e 5km or 10km run at 150beats per minute but that is it.. 5km in 21.20 10km in 44.20

I'm with you and understand training to a good degree, but few are gonna do that V02 MAX checkup. Forget that extreme athletic here... It is just gonna turn people away ....

These aren’t exactly risky studies - so just do the studies already! Way too many questions being asked in this video.

Rhonda is going to discover Achilles tendonopathy if she starts hill sprints without any sprinting background! I did that in my 20s, brutal

May we offer a better way of measurement. Are you getting better in what you love to do? for us is cycling, snowboarding, lifting kids, and moving things.

Thanks for tuning in. If you have any suggestions about things you would like to see, please leave it in the comments.

Timewise nothing beats burpees for vo2max imho.

The no upper limit may apply to moderate exercise - not high intensity. Very few studies on this so far. Also the contrast with elite athletes is not the whole story - the move from sub-elite to elite isn't a lot.

If Rhonda was not finding tabata incredibly difficult she was doing it easy.

3-5 min x 4 all out are seriously some of the most painful stuff you can do though 😅

Nice

Mr Gibala keeps bringing the host BACK TO EARTH after she asks a question well beyond most of us here --- People, forget this vo2 stuff... It is only a method to show what your body is doing as it works... IT IS NOT MUCH YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT UNLESS YOU TRAIN SO HARD YOU HURT YOURSELF. So do your workouts, as you like, and the vo2 number will be just that, a number, a reference point that you do not even need to know...Just do something that causes your HR to increase...PERIOD.

HIIT vs REHIT, vs SIT

Not a single word on how to actually do a vigorous exercise or did I miss something?

Professor Luigi Fontana says that exercise is quite overrated for longevity. You should have someone on that doesn't put all the eggs in the exercise basket. You know, for science. Luigi Fontana also looks a decade younger than his 54 years, and he is really the only longevity expert that seems to have the formula right for aging.

I have been canceled at your web site. Why?

An exercise snack sounds good BUT if I have to be told when and what to do, I'm a follower and at first chance, I burn that wagon that I am following ... god, please help with yours? lol

1:45:00

2:14:24

He’s Peter Attia’s brother from another mother

Great guest 👏👏 🙌

Dead lifts, more effort required to do these, high intensity uses speed and momentum, not much muscle use.

❤

🙌🙌🙌

Drinking copious alcohol reduced my all cause morality by 80%

lol.. Endurance has nothing to nothing to do with a MAX HR... lol... WHATEVER the highest HR you obtain doing any event, that is your MAX heart rate... IF you are a pud and on the couch all day for yrs. UR HR will skyrocket just opening the front door.

Funnily enough, Zátopek did only interval training (200m or 400m) and won 5000m, 10 000m and marathon gold in one Olympics. But I guess modern couch potato needs “Zone 2” because it was on KZfaq😂

⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️

Great piece or work..very broad ranging..2 comments..too much time spent hearing about Rhonda’s personal exercise habits..they are not really relevant here and waste a lot of time…also Rhonda seems very biased and pushing the expert to make definitive judgments based on limited data,,the bias is toward interval training which is not right for every one or even most He says many times how iffy it is to extrapolate from limited data but Rhonda pushes anyway..better if she was more of a professional interviewer

Dr. Ephraim Engleman a famous rheumatologist with awards and honors to his name who lived to age 104 had a top 10 list for longevity. #4 exercise is over rated so do a little if you must but not too much. #5 avoid so called special diets, fish oils, organic foods, extra vitamins and other such nonsense.