“One of the main things having money gives you is the ability to not think about money. So you can think about other things “ So true Well said.

Universities shouldn't be run like a business. Health care (I'm a physician) sure as hell shouldn't be run like a business. Until the general public realizes that unchecked capitalism is ruthless and amoral, well...it will get worse before we see real change. Rock bottom here we come!

I agree. (I'm a Boomer professor at a major public U.) The biggest growth in higher ed has been administration. Admin would say that they make for better learning and take the admin burden off instructors. The opposite happens. I'm spending much more time on admin than 30 years ago, and student learning has not increased, even with better tech. Let's start by taking the profit margin out of student loans, freezing hires to admin, and putting "public good" back in education.

As a person who went to Brigham Young University at the same time as Tara Westover, the reason she had cheap tuition was because 90% of the costs were paid for by tithing of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints. I am no longer a Mormon myself but it really goes to prove what a community can do for their youth even if it's through an institution.

I was the first person in my family to go to college. It took me 20 years to pay it off. It was loans or nothing because my parents could not afford to fund my education. Was it worth it? Maybe...but not really. I HATED the career I ended up in but made such little money and worked such long hours that I had to keep deferring loan payments - hence it taking 20 years to pay off. Now at 48 I have finally put myself on a better career path. Public colleges should be free for most and low cost for the rest.

Here in Switzerland we pay $500 per semester. I don’t understand why a university is beyond a normal studies

Tara Westover's story is informative and she touches on very important issues for our times. Her story of the father and daughter who just closed the browser is sad on so many levels. The loss of hope and one's dreams when it comes to educational aspirations because of lack of money is a consequence of treating education like a commodity rather than a benefit to society. A culture that creates inequality on so many levels as the US does when it comes to access to education and/or healthcare is only weaking its own social fabric.

My family was that rung on the middle class that made too much for any financial assistance. So college was out of reach. I'm 28, just bought a house in the Bay Area of CA, and have no student loan debt because I looked at university and elected to enter the trades instead of higher education. I was in my orientation for university when I got the job offer. Best decision I ever made.

This interview is both revealing and confirming for me. So many themes! One thing is certain: we definitely use our version of capitalism as a weapon against the poor. Regardless of racial group, poor people are systemically kept down. That is a whole series of interviews by itself. I’m glad she spoke her truth, choosing to see her life for what it was, instead of through the heavily skewed lens of her family’s narrative.

An excellent and genuine articulation of the reality of the barriers to a good education for so many people.

She is SO impressive. Her book was great. Reminds me of my life and college. Relatively poor, didn't know about financial aid, and had to work so hard to get through college. But things were even more affordable in my day.

I worked in higher education for 20 years. One of the reasons I decided to change careers was the unconscionable piling of debt on students and their families.

As someone who once worked in higher ed, hoping to be part of the solution and help my fellow underclasses after I graduated, what hurt me the most was processing collection checks. These former students were paying off debts from almost a decade prior in $20-50 installments, which would probably take them another 2-3 decades to pay off, if they made it that far. And, for some crazy-ass reason, student loan debt is NOT cleared through traditional bankruptcy, at least not without incurring EVEN MORE DEBT. Meanwhile, massive cuts were being made to instruction, and the administration was paying itself *hundreds of thousands of dollars* more every year, even go so far as looting its endowment AND its goddamn PPP loan... That made me realize that, if colleges and universities are going to be run strictly like businesses, making education into a luxury good, then society itself was going to suffer. I thought I could be part of the solution, but clearly I was wrong, and I'm glad I left.

Thank you so much for posting this interview. I was particularly stuck by this statement: "When something is not within your reach, it's just human nature to devalue that thing." That is so true. Thank you for discussing this important topic!

When I went to college 45 years ago, you could work a minimum wage job all summer and during breaks, and (barely) pay for the dorm/food/books/tuition. That was no car, no holidays, no other luxury expenses, but one could do it. Just a rough guess, but today you'd need a minimum wage job, plus you'd have to borrow several years, maybe 6+, of post-graduation salary to complete a basic degree. That says a lot about the cost of college, the value of the degree, and the lack of an increase in minimum wage.

If it weren't for the Pell grant, I'd be living on the streets. It makes all the difference for those of us whom have suffered through poverty.

My dad had three daughters and we knew from an early age that he expected us to go to college, a place that he had not had the privilege of attending. Thankfully, we were all bright enough to be accepted to a state university and the price was affordable. It was an experience that changed even my outlook and I think everyone should have the opportunity to go to college without being saddled with unending debt. On the other hand, we need to provide ways to have a good life even without a college degree. It isn’t for everyone.

Thank you. A decent life shouldn't be reserved only for the exceptional. The fact that a few people can get through extraordinary difficulties doesn't justify making a minimally acceptable standard of living so hard to achieve for the non-exceptional.

Unlike J.D. Vance, Westover is true to her roots, critical of the education system, and empathy for low income students today.

Sometimes people need to stop looking at individual stories of success and thinking "that's possible". Instead they need to look at the statistical figures and ask "is it probable?"

Putting college education out of reach makes the K-12 all the more important. If high school courses won’t teach you then how can we have a literate community.

This piece resonated so much. 😔 My daughter was accepted to her 1st choice university that is offering her a partial scholarship which only covers 25%. Neither her nor I can afford the remaining 40k annually and even as she looks for other scholarships to supplement their offer, the window is closing. I agree that higher education is the way to improve one's quality of life but its becoming harder to convince young people that this is true.

Excellent conversation.

When other European and Asian countries where College are mostly free and affordable, US has made it discouraging for people to pursue higher education. Hence easier to control their minds.

I could listen to this young woman talk 'till the cows come home (even if they're Republican cows). She's unguarded, modest, open-minded, humble, and empathetic. She has insight, and gives me a sliver of optimism about the future of the U.S. while watching a tsunami of bad news.

In many european countries higher education is free.

I was only able to afford university because of the Pell grants I received, and it absolutely gave me the freedom to engage more with my classes and significantly cut back on the hours I had to work to cover the extra costs. I also remember how difficult college applications were, and how adrift in a sea of bureaucracy I felt trying to navigate it all on my own. School didn’t help, my parents were working too many hours and didn’t know anything about the system enough to help anyway. It’s a lot to ask of kids, even those who aren’t struggling, and it says something about the system that there are so many companies that have popped up to help fill that gap for a price - to boost your GRE/ACT score, to help you write the best admission essays, etc etc.

So much human potential is just wasted.

My 12 year old read the book with me in 2021, partially because I was raised in an extreme evangelical family, and I was VERY lucky because my father’s side wasn’t evangelical but rather successful lawyers and one doctor, so I had some inspiration to work hard. I ended up with fairly large student loans but was very fortunate to meet a professor who wanted me to study under her in an Ivy League graduate school. So I typically slept only four hours a night once I got in that grad school, working very hard to take advantage of my great fortune to get in there. I can totally understand what Dr. Westover is saying. I always tell my son and my university students that my success was a combination of great luck and hard work. Both were necessary. I headed a program at a liberal arts college for several years in the States, and students needed 70K+ for tuition and board. Most had terrible debts.

Talk about being sheltered and lied to. Smh! Her parents failed her but sounds like she was determined to get educated and wanted to develop a new prospective. Good for her.

What an extraordinary journey this young lady has experienced. Her unusual upbringing was an asset in her quest to understanding the world. I am anxious to read her book. Blessings to her!

Throughout the 1960s, I paid $120 a semester at The University of Michigan and $72 a quarter at the University of California--Berkeley, in-State residency. Yet 80% of faculty now are "adjunct" which means not proportionate pay to full-time salary, no insurance, no pension. The money is going into mega-salaries of executive administrators, and into ostentatious campus-building for local prestige and wealth. Business does not offer work in which higher education is needed and has changed academics to an apprenticeship the students pay for. This is the reason there are so many Americans who have become cultists of ignorance, placing our democracy in jeopardy.

Amazing conversation! Thank you…this young person is worth listening to!

She’s brilliant, she should run for office, I’ll vote for her!

What a beautiful and eloquent lady.

I had 3 jobs and full time school. I needed the pell grant and was weeks away of going to mexico for a semester to study Mayan art. Then without notice the school dropped the pell grant because to many were not paying it back. I had to drop out. I often wonder how my life would be different if that didn't happen. later I found out that only 2% of people from my poverty background reach graduation, I felt a little better I made it as far as I did.

Corporate America needs a low wage, under educated, health-care dependent workforce, un-affordable housing, Netflix, and pizza. The entire U.S. economy is structured on it. Why people are loyal to an economic system or government or policy that opposes them is beyond me.

I started college in 1963. My mom had saved $500 to help me get started. That wasn't enough but I got a gov loan. I couldn't pay the loan. I changed schools and worked each day washing pots and pans in the kitchen and learned lots of cooking skills from the women I worked with. They also made sure I had food to eat. In my third year I worked from 4 pm to 4 am in a pizza and beer joint making pizza's and cleaning up. I didn't make enough money to pay my tuition and board. I made it 4 months before I was kicked out for not being able to get up in the morning for classes and. not having enough money to pay my school bills. I dropped out for several years when I worked as an underpaid clerk in a chemical laboratory. That was a very unpleasant experience filled with a residence with exposure to rats, hunger etc. But I did get to take a couple of night classes for a year and a half. I did save enough money to go back to school. I choose to get a degree in the shortest time period possible. My first 10 years after graduation was a constant struggle to work in a field with minimal financial rewards. I did manage to meet some people along the way that helped me better my job prospects. It did take me 30 years, but I did end up earning 3 Masters level degrees that in many was too little too late. I wanted to be a researchers. The only research I did was for my second Masters degree. My first was a written document to get awarded the degree. The third was a several years long internship. I may be an ingrate but I really was never able to live my dreams and goals. I was however able to earn enough money to retire. I earned a retirement annuity from three different and unrelated professions. I also still hold 4 professional State licenses to practice different professions. Unfortunately, now at 80 years of age, my life goals have changed to simply survive a cold winter and grow a garden for best foods.

I relate so much to this. My graduate program is almost $100k and I’m still working full-time

She's absolutely right. State public universities need to be affordable. I went to University in the early to mid 90's and was able to work part-time, live at home, and get through school without debt. Having to work part-time during school kept me from taking some opportunities offered to me (an archeological excavation abroad), but at least I was able to get a degree without debt.

There are aspects of life that cannot and should not be capitalized: education, health care, food, infrastructure like roads, dams, utilities, water…

She speaks truth. I went to university for 7 years, was an honor student throughout grad school and yet I am still homeless and jobless here in the USA. I was constantly misled by administration, lied to about opportunities and harassed for questioning university policies. It was all BS so the university could make money. Yet, the government says I should pay the loans back anyway. Well, they can suck it! I will NEVER give those student loan companies another dime! I default with enthusiasm! Screw them like they screwed me!

Governments should pay for everyone’s college education. Or else online colleges will take over and college as we know it today will collapse.

"Everything in my life at that time was about money...because I just didn't have any."

such an important topic, thank you Amanpour and Co

Life rule #1 "Never take a loan you can't default on". That rule has served me well.

Great interview! I always find her perspective on life fascinating considering how hidden from reality she was growing up.

I went to school with several successful people who’s lives were changed in the same way by a Pel Grant. I have also lived with many friends without higher education who devalue it in the same way, and whom are unable to get ahead in life due to a lack of that education, be it academic or even a trade school.

Her story resonates with me. I clearly remember during my freshman and sophomore years worrying more about making money for my school/living expenses than I did about actually learning.

Every family that does not get financial aid is really covering the cost of 2 people. Its wrong on so many levels.

It's not about living up to the American dream, it is to survive the American nightmare. Most of population has a lower quality of life than the average of us Scandinavians (still we have more $ billionaires in Sweden per capita than the US)

I'm questioning the value of the college degree because many students who attend college end up getting a ton of debt and end up doing jobs they could have done after high school. I'm not anti college degree but we need a strong K12 program first and have a option to find the best post secondary education if it's tech schools, short courses or 4 year University. The thinking that a four year degree is the only option for success is dangerous and it's setting up people to fail.

So very true. The cost was a major factor in my not attending medical school

I'm wondering if the United States is actively trying to destroy its education system.

Ms. Westover is not only intelligent, but has a real concern for people who desire an education. However, I am mystified why it took until the middle of her sophomore year to get a Pell Grant?. BYU is a good school. You'd think counselors would steer her there upon matriculation. Finally a professor or administrator did so. She was well read, to a point. And had access to the internet. That just shows you how smart, industrious people require help and a little luck to get along. The masses need an education. Yes, to make money, but also learn about themselves and life in general. Ms. Westover has a depth of character that most of us do not possess.

Thank you for this important interview! This is the kind of valuable content I really enjoy from Amanpour & Co

Thought provoking. Having read her great book, and watching this interview, makes me believe more ardently that we need to invest in education for all who aspire to a college degree. Knowledge is so critical today.

Yes, the banning of books - the burning/disregarding of them like in Fahrenheit 451 is terrifying

Beautiful lady who navigated a tough situation and frankly is raising some great points!

What an amazing articulate perspective.

Thank you! 🌷💚 Really I wish more people saw this.

Thank you for interviewing Tara. She is so inspirational!

Our govt needs to open medical school and nursing up for 5 years of free tuition to beef up or Family medicine and nursing staff for each state....each state to choose a handful of students to enter the program....no rich folks allowed btw

The disinterest of college in young people isn't just inaccessibility, it is the disgusting state of our high school and grade school systems - they are more like a police state than a school. My kids' expériences were so different from my own I was appalled.

I remember when my sisters have money left from Pell grant that help with transportation, books, and food when going to their university. When it was my turn to go to college. There was no Pell Grant left and after few years, I have to take a loan every semester. I have to quit due to lack of mney for transortation, books and even food, and now I'm paying my students loans and is unbereable to live on my own at $14 hr. I'm even considering selling my car so I can save that money and breathe a little.

One of the things I heard recently is that employers are using the requirement of a college degree to keep Blacks and Hispanics without one from getting a job that might not really need one, or if it's a job they are doing already from transferring to another company for the same job.

Great interview! Tara brings a very realistic view to the problems young people are facing now.

Tara Westover's story and her involvement, directly and indirectly to our society is much needed. I love her book and her story. Thank you, Tara, for what you represent and for your insight. Reading her book, Educated, several years ago was an eye opener. What a gift she is.

Working in manufacturing 20yr I can say companies are stupid in that they put low priority on training and quality of product. They consider the college degree a standard for position and heirachy with competence overlooked.

My oldest daughter’s in her 2nd year law school. We’re in Canada and she did get government loans but also had to take a professional loan because 1year is 10K. She’s also worked part time all through school. Another huge issue is affordable housing. When she’s done school, then paying back will start and no way to save for a house till years later.

I can relate to working around the clock to pay for school, then leaving just as the economy crashed. It took years of continuing to work numerous jobs before I could even begin to think about buying a home, much less starting a family. These days, I am all for reading as extensively as one can while growing up, finding the most scholarships one can if you desire a college education, and even if you pursue that, getting a trade as well as we can see now that being educated outside of certain specialties does not necessarily translate into getting a job that pays enough to secure the "American Dream".

America gave up on being a "society" around about 1980, when Saint Ronnie came along and turned off all the taps to public investment in anything or anybody.

I think a public funded college education would be a good thing. I think it would help society.

Really good conversation. Thank you, Michel, and Amanpour & Co. Thanks to you my hold request list at the library keeps growing.

The ability to change is a good marker of intelligence. This woman is intelligent.

Damn! This explains 1/3 of our society being cultists.

Loved, loved, loved her book!!! One of the best books that I have ever read! It was so engaging & unexpected.

This young woman needs to get into politics. She can make a difference.

In 1984, my tuition and fees per quarter at my community college totaled $312. Given inflation, this is equal to $824 in 2022. Today at the same school a semester of tuition and fees is $3200.

When I attended college at our community university in the early 1980s, I took a full load of classes, and the cost per semester, including books was $650. My grandson is struggling going to the same college and now a full semester of classes now cost $4000, all for for a career that pays less than $40,000 annually. If he advances to a four year college, he will accumulate nearly a $100,000 in student debt four a bachelor degree in engineering, so tell me, where is the incentive to go to college, go six figures in debt, just to make, not much more than a person without a degree earning nearly that much working on an assembly line? I know young adults right now that are have four year degrees,that are working in their fields of study, and are still living with their parents because they are so burdened with student debt that can't afford to live on their own. There is something wrong this picture.

Aside from the interview, her book became my favorite EVER. Not only it opened my eyes into a lot of things, but also made me feel very inspired. I highly recommend everyone to read it!

I imagine a discussion between an US-citizen and a European, who has migrated to the USA recently: American: So you left free education behind? European: Hmm, yes ... American: And more or less free healthcare as well? European: Well, yes ... American: Also a working democratic election process? European: Why, sure ... American: And you knew that in the US you don't have rights to get paid leave or paid sick days like in Europe? European: Yes ... American: Also a year of paid maternity leave? European: Also this ... American: Why in heaven did you leave all that?! European: To take advantage of the American dream, of course! American: "face palm" - What do you think we Americans dream of?!

So so true!!! The cost is just so out of reach!!!

This gal shed light on more ideas than the lack or commercialization of education. She has the kind of personality that enjoys learning…so she had that going for her to help her push forward with her education. One of the things that showed up in this interview, for me…was that this gal had been home schooled. I reminded me of how much home schooling increased over the past few years, along with all the ‘little schools,’ that were created for religious reasons. These parents wanted to protect their children from ‘outsiders’…apparently because they might be contaminated by them! I think that we see just how this has effected children’s education and world view in general.

Tara's arguments will actually convince readers to continue taking their college classes. It's tough, and a significant financial commitment right now, but she offers a deeper understanding of why it'll be worth it long term, and what to do to make the access more equally distributed. Thank you.

I loved her book. An amazing story and, clearly, an unusually bright and articulate young woman. Now that I've "found" her I know I'll be following her career. She speaks to so many important issues and the growing divides in our society.

What is wrong with us in the U.S.? How did money become our leading measure of everything and everyone? Colleges and universities were not primarily businesses decades ago. Nor were hospitals and health insurance companies--most of them were non-profit until the 1960s. Perhaps we have too many MBAs, but that's probably only a symptom of what's wrong, not the cause.

Wonderful interview!

Education has always been used to keep people separate. The haves from the have nots, To keep the costs high means only the haves can go…. And those without will remain without.

She was helped because she is pretty. A physically ugly person, male or female, has a tougher time.

I worked my way through college and paid for all my room and board, books, and tuition. It would be impossible in the same state school today.

Mind blowing that she didn’t here about the Civil Right Movement and lived in the 21st Century. That’s insane.

Tara is a breath of fresh air.

In college in the late 90s, a classmate made a comment that I was just there for a piece of paper. The thing was, I was working 7 days a week and doing a heavy coarse load because I couldn't afford to be there any longer than I absolutely had to be.

Finished reading your book. Thanks for being brave to write it.

Listening to this reminds me that one of the big things that poorer kids and their families are deprived of in high school is high quality and knowledgeable college entry guidance. For example, an extremely bright HS junior from a family where no one has attended college might look at the tuition at a well endowed Ivy League college and say: “Wow…70K per year! Forget it…they’re all rich kids anyway”. They then look at their state university and say: “Wow…25K? That’s better but still unaffordable!” What they don’t realize is that if their kid is really bright and has an unusual background and comes from an unusual region of the USA and good teacher recommendations and college board scores, the “elite” Ivy League school WILL accept them AND make sure it is affordable through strategic application of grants and work-study. They won’t accept you if they can’t figure out how to make it somehow affordable. Stereotypes aside, many “elite” schools WANT kids like this can afford to do this; however, it takes a knowledgeable HS guidance office to inform the student and their family and facilitate the student in taking the steps to make it happen. This is something that private schools do very well but many or most public schools do not have the resources for.

Courage and honesty is refreshing. 🇺🇸

there are less students applying for college today for these reasons.

I taught as an adjunct at a community college. The dean, who hired me and who the faculty respected because she was a good listener and actually was willing to try to solve faculty problems, had to leave her post when her husband was given a tenure track position in another state. The move was sudden and an interim dean was needed while a search was conducted. Rather than giving the job to a faculty member who had been a department chair, a friend of one of the officers was given the post which paid more than $100,000. This person had two business degrees. In other words, she had, on paper, a master's degree as did many of the adjuncts who earned $2,500 per class taught. She never supervised anything and she never taught. Sadly, she did not pay attention. One of the adjuncts taught at another CC on Tuesdays and Thursdays. He emailed his availability to her and she assigned him classes on those days. She also scheduled a speech class for him to teach. He never was a student in a speech class, let alone a teacher in such a class. A class on the hero in literature was scheduled. I dropped her a note because I essentially have a master's degree in mythology. She gave the class to someone who had been teaching technical writing. I was not given a class which I had the preparation for. Now, being the conscientious people the two men were, they put together good courses. It was while teaching at that community college that I could see how college has stopped being the means of improving society to being a for profit chunk of the business that is America.

Impressive is not a word that I commonly apply to young people these days...but I apply it now with some sense of renewed hope in the young.