Unveiled: Major RCD Blunder in Heat Pump Installs
Рет қаралды 17,616
Күн бұрынAn eFIXX investigation reveals that heat pump installers are routinely installing the WRONG type of RCDs…
…we meet the apprentice electrician who’s earning an annual salary of £77,000…
…and, is it a bulb or a lamp? We shed light on the big debate…
Welcome to Electrical News Weekly in association with Solar Trade Sales, whether you're listening in the van, on site, or down at the wholesale counter.
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Show Notes 🗒️
Type B MCBs and RCDs, Clearing Up the Confusion 👉 • Type B MCBs and RCDs, ...
Firestopping of service penetrations document👉 www.thefis.org/membership-hub...
Check out the winners of the eFIXX 30 Under 30 awards 👉 awards.efixx.co.uk/2023-30-un...
Bulb or lamp? 👉 • Post
Download the new LumXpert app 👉 hub.efixx.co.uk/lumxpert-ENW
Check out the Robus Scholar 👉 • ❌ Don't Make This Glar...
Is the TIS MFT pro worth the hype? 👉 • IS This Electrical Ins...
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Time Stamps ⏱
00:00 Electrical News Weekly 22nd April 2024
00:39 Installers fitting wrong type of RCD in heat pump installs
02:57 Guidance published to help maintain fire barriers in buildings
03:35 Apprentice electrician with salary of £77000 a year
04:36 Check out this years eFIXX 30 Under 30
04:56 Do you call it a bulb or a lamp?
06:15 Download the new LumXpert App
07:15 This weeks question of the week
07:59 Is the TIS MFT pro worth the hype?
08:34 What happened to Joe's beard?
09:23 Thanks to our premium partners
10:46 Challenge words and winners
======================
Electrical News Weekly in association with
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#electricalnews #electricians #electricalindustry
@efixx Ай бұрын
Heat Pumps UK facebook.com/groups/684966259514987/?ref=share_group_link
@edc1569 Ай бұрын
Luckily we have the IET to ensure we have clear labelling of protective devices, consistent performance of AFDD with standardised status LEDs and tightly controlled standards so we can swap out protective devices without throwing away the consumer unit every 3 years. Also the IET have reassuring decided that you can only get killed by a PEN fault from a EV and not a heat pump or garden class I lighting. Keep up the good work guys.
@efixx Ай бұрын
Watch this space...
@deang5622 Ай бұрын
Labelling of RCDs is clear. The symbols are defined.
@Electronics-Rocks Ай бұрын
@@efixxinverter drives are becoming standard practice in things like washing machines & have measured higher DC
@G6EJD Ай бұрын
Really the designer/manufacturer should be quoting the DC currents imparted by their loads, it shouldn’t be for an installer to measure the DC currents and to fit an appropriate RCD type.
@efixx Ай бұрын
It’s in the instructions
@yngndrw. Ай бұрын
@@efixx Is it? I can't find any reference to leakage currents in the Vaillant Arotherm Plus Installation Manual - That's a very common model of heat pump.
@G6EJD Ай бұрын
@@yngndrw. So it looks like @efixx has uncovered a glaring omission in supplier documentation. It can't be possible for an installer to make these determinations and it's likely that products will have a wide spread of leakage values.
@Electronics-Rocks Ай бұрын
Please note the issue with DC voltages is if the heat pump has INVERTER control which a lot of the small ones don't have so no need for a type B! So installers need to look for the word INVERTER which the heat pump usually has in big letters as it is expensive & is more efficient! It has been a bugbear of mine about inverters as used in other air compressors! Also what about washing machines as these use inverters now!!!! I did put a type B in for my unit but I will test for DC voltage & current backflow at the weekend!
@retrozmachine1189 Ай бұрын
@@Electronics-Rocks Type B is something I speculated about becoming a requirement on another youtube channel. A product with motors doesn't need to have the word inverter in it to be in the potential DC leakage class anymore. So many things have variable speed motor control these days it's essentially everywhere, the days of simple line operated motors are in the past. Standard small 3 phase motors with VFD style drive, multi-phase BLDCs, even PWM'd basic motors. Washing machines and clothes dryers are a perfect example. Unless you shop at the super-low price end of the market, all of them employ one of those classes of motor drive yet not a single mention of 'inverter' in the description / title of most of them.
@gavjlewis Ай бұрын
"Lamp" is something you usually want to do to the plasterers on site! 😂
@efixx Ай бұрын
😂 Oh, come on now, we all just want to get along. 😃
@GroovyG0 Ай бұрын
Isn't it high time the IET changed nomenclature of MCB/RCBOs to CURVE B, C or D to reduce confusion with TYPE A, AC, F & B RCDs? Maybe that's asking too much, even though they regularly re-name everything else in BS7671.
@Muggles87 Ай бұрын
Yes, yes it is
@mikeselectricstuff Ай бұрын
If an inverter heatpump needs a type B RCD, then so does a fridge/freezer or aircon unit, which typically also have inverter drives these days. Smooth DC leakage from these is pretty unlikely, compared with products with big HV batteries.
@deang5622 Ай бұрын
Fridge freezers are generally on/off motor control with no control over the speed. Washing machines and dishwashers often have inverters as they need to change the speed of the motor. The IET also say that Type A is suitable for inverters as well as Type B.
@maxtorque2277 Ай бұрын
Frankly if anyone is desiging a modern inverter that exceeds 6mA of common mode leakage then they need to go away and do it again properly! Absolutely no reason not to be able to make an EMC approved inverter for any low power domestic product these days......
@Mark-the-spark55 Ай бұрын
I've installed Steibel Eltron heat pumps and it specifically requests type B RCDs in the installation manual
@efixx Ай бұрын
Well done for reading the manual!
@seanthespark Ай бұрын
Collywobbles and cantilever, also its a lamp, unless it's in a lamp because that just gets confusing! Great edition of the ENW as always Joe, and thanks for the goody bag, it finally arrived 👏👏👍
@efixx Ай бұрын
So glad it arrived safely, the post office lady was a little distracted last week so I was worried! 😂
@Cymaphore Ай бұрын
One should always check the installers manual. Many are ok with RCDs Type F, some are even suitable for Type A (internal DC fault current monitoring or other additional protection present). Installing Type B by default might be a general solution, but a costly one, so consulting the manual can reduce costs. Thanks for pushing the issue to a greater audiance!
@waynecartwright-js8tw Ай бұрын
Many washing machines feature inverter driven motors , will they affect a/c RCD operation ?
@efixx Ай бұрын
Yup, that's one potential source of DC leakage in a property. 😬
@deang5622 Ай бұрын
Read the article by the IET on how to select the correct type of RCD.
@smiffysmiffy123 Ай бұрын
Yes but the Niceic say it’s only a c3 on an Eicr so you can pass the installation. Got told off for putting c2.
@waynecartwright-js8tw Ай бұрын
@@smiffysmiffy123 thats my concern as whether it makes installs unsafe and needing a C2
@Dog-whisperer7494 Ай бұрын
Great news weekly as always Joe. The two words this week are Colliewobbles and plumage
@jimsvideos7201 Ай бұрын
How many engineers does it take to change a light bulb? Well, technically it's a lamp.
@efixx Ай бұрын
😂😂
@brendanpells912 Ай бұрын
Many years ago I visited an egg farm with about 8 fans each controlled by a small inverter drive. The distribution board was a standard Hager unit with an RCD, which kept tripping if more than 2 fans were connected. I advised they fit an Si type RCD which included immunity to the superimposed DC component arising from the EMC filters on the inverters. At the time these weren't widely available so I just left them to order one and fit it, in the hope it would fit in the Hager board.
@simonb1996 Ай бұрын
MCB out of the consumer unit, into a Type B RCBO in a separate enclosure.
@deang5622 Ай бұрын
Yes, if you can't fit or obtain a type B RCD for the consumer unit. I have noticed a tendency for some properties to be fitted with type AC. And I suspect they are far more common than people realise. And I have observed electricians doing EICRs on properties and not picking up on it, which quite frankly is appalling.
@A.Y.A Ай бұрын
thank you very much. The selected words of the week are collywobble and worms . . It's really fun to see the electricity news, I appreciate it very much. And as always thank you very much
@efixx Ай бұрын
Good guesses as always! 😃
@alanjewell9550 Ай бұрын
Another question about heat pump installations: should pen fault protection be added? I know it's not required. It seems the same potential hazard exists as for EVs on charge in that there's a big piece of metal connected to the main earthing terminal sitting outside where a person standing on the ground can touch it. No RCD will help you if the pen goes high impedance... It's probably a very small risk & may well be deamed low enough to be acceptable. Any thoughts?
@persona250 Ай бұрын
I’ve been told board manufacturers are bring out Pen fault mainswitches as you are correct .
@alanjewell9550 Ай бұрын
@@persona250 Devices to fit in a cu are available, just not yet mandatory for hp installations. I wonder if IET will bring in an amendment?
@deang5622 Ай бұрын
@@alanjewell9550I doubt it. People go up to and touch car bodies. They have to in order to gain entry. They don't go up and touch heat pumps. 474 broken PEN faults in 2021.
@persona250 Ай бұрын
Nobody is addressing the issue of where the dc current goes after the type b rcd . It flows back through all the other type A RCDs on the installation .
@deang5622 Ай бұрын
No it doesn't. Try analysing the circuits to understand why. Don't guess. Work it out.
@persona250 Ай бұрын
@@deang5622 nobody knows yet dean least of all you .
@ks-hg5vo Ай бұрын
Phillips and osram seem to refer to them as bulbs crompton use term lamps. Amazon list mostly as bulbs . Do light bulbs direct need to change their trading name. So is it humphrey davis in 1806 with his arc lamp or Edison with his light bulb?
@sadken-gr7ve Ай бұрын
I just bought a new washing machine that says 'prosmart inverter' on the front. Is that going to blind my type A RCD??
@efixx Ай бұрын
Type A should he okay - type AC not
@efixx Ай бұрын
It could contribute some DC leakage current... 😬
@OldLordSpeedy Ай бұрын
Just a question from foreign country foreigner: Is the company "Lewden" a part of the Italian company "Palazzoli"? I found many packages in internet which wrote both companies on it.
@efixx Ай бұрын
Yes, I believe Palazzoli bought Lewden a few years ago. So they're known as Lewden Palazzoli in the UK, although a lot of people still just say Lewden. 😊 Thanks for watching and commenting. 👍
@TheChipmunk2008 Ай бұрын
mail online is not a credible source
@efixx Ай бұрын
Yur, always feel a bit grubby when one of those stories comes up. 😂
@TheChipmunk2008 Ай бұрын
@@efixx was in a feisty mood yesterday lol, had to deal with an earth to live (sorry Gary, CPC to line) fault. As a result of this i now know the resistance of a slug at 500 volts is 0.007Megohms :D
@efixx Ай бұрын
Oh yeah, I think I saw you post that somewhere, was it LinkedIn? 🤔
@MarcusNailor Ай бұрын
Collywobbles & cantilever 😜 I get the feeling next week will be harder! Interesting episode, though ⚡ Crazy salary for an apprentice... 😲
@efixx Ай бұрын
You might be surprised Marcus, I've just popped them into this week's script and it was tricky....😂
@MarcusNailor Ай бұрын
😂 Looking forward to Monday's episode! 💪
@leonbongers6004 Ай бұрын
Most modern heat pump brands have a 6mA declaration.
@davidrayner4699 Ай бұрын
Greetings, love the fascinating info you give out. Were the words, 'colly wobbles and cantilever limb'? Regards from sunny Southend-on-Sea 😊
@Dog-whisperer7494 Ай бұрын
Joe I received a marxman and two eFIXX stickers on Saturday and I have no idea what or what I did to deserve them. I am just wondering if you know.?
@efixx Ай бұрын
Hi Sean, you won the challenge word competition a while back, I think it was around December time. I'm just getting caught up with prizes. 😊
@Dog-whisperer7494 Ай бұрын
Oh wow thank you so much I really appreciate it. . 👍
@protectiongeek Ай бұрын
Thanks for another great news update, Joe. Re: RCDs - how to choose the 'correct' type, can I recommend the BEAMA RCD GUIDE (latest edition is Oct 2020) or the Eaton RCD Application Guide? Both very helpful documents. Won't post links here or KZfaq will bin this comment.
@deang5622 Ай бұрын
I can recommend the guide produced by the IET in September 2019, titled 'Which RCD Type?" Very clear and concise.
@AdamWatson001 Ай бұрын
4:59 Can I call it a Bulb Lamp!? (As opposed to a "fluorescent" tube lamp or a candle lamp?)
@dorsetengineering Ай бұрын
What’s more concerning is the fact that a heat pump sat on rubber feet should (in my opinion) be treated the same as an EV charger and have a dedicated earth rod (because they don’t have open PEN detection). What’s to stop the outer case rising to 1/2 line voltage in the even of an open PEN fault in the supply?
@G1ZQCArtwork Ай бұрын
I still don't get the Torque Calibrated Arm.!?
@efixx Ай бұрын
We did a whole campaign on doing up electrical connections to the right torque settings. Lots of electricians responded by saying they've got torque settings in their arms. We tested a few to see if they were right... they weren't! Hence, there's no such thing as a torque calibrated arm! 😂
@G1ZQCArtwork Ай бұрын
@@efixx Oh I am well aware. 55 years plus in the business, never posessed a torque Screwdriver, never used one. No fires or burned connections ever. I know a few who don't use them. But hey, what do I know..
@GlynHudson Ай бұрын
Interesting, it would be interesting to see some measurements of DC leakage from real world heat pump installations? Has anyone done this?
@andyprobert7040 Ай бұрын
Hi, I am a tech engineer for Stiebel Eltron and one of my coleagues has tested an rcbo with a compressor running, and wont trip on a test.
@GlynHudson Ай бұрын
@@andyprobert7040 interesting, thanks for sharing. Was that a type A RCBO? Do your instructions specify type B?
@andyprobert7040 Ай бұрын
Yes our instructions specify a type B Rcd. Or mostly i train the electicians to install with a method without RCD on the compressor circuit. But its important to remember that any RCD up stream is also affected.
@Mircea007 Ай бұрын
collywobbles and mitts
@efixx Ай бұрын
Great guesses, tune in on Monday to see if you were right!
@LG9574 Ай бұрын
So what’s the minimum wage for an electrical apprentice over the age of 21?
@beningledew2002 Ай бұрын
Collywobbles and cantilever
@Fluffycloughy Ай бұрын
Collywobbles and Cantilevered 🙂
@efixx Ай бұрын
Sounds like the mildest cuss-words ever! 😂
@Fluffycloughy Ай бұрын
@@efixx 🤣
@mikehealy74 Ай бұрын
The beard - did it involve a sneeze whilst trimming, or maybe a cat clawing at an inopportune moment?
@TheChipmunk2008 Ай бұрын
make the best kind of rcd (type b) the standard.. also anyone mistaking the B curve with 'type b' is not fit for purpose, yes i am feisty
@efixx Ай бұрын
Unfortunately the type B RCD is currently huge, expensive and not actually required in all situations. Hopefully we're helping people learn the difference between devices. 😊
@seantaylor9758 21 күн бұрын
oh the days of wired fuses and a bit of asbestos thrown in just for good measure!
@G1ZQCArtwork Ай бұрын
Cost Adel & Collywobbles (too simple?).
@efixx Ай бұрын
We'll find out next week. 😃
@SoraaConstruction-zl9ww Ай бұрын
Every new build heat pump installer are requiring a type c
@postiemania Ай бұрын
Lamp, bulb, globe or Luminaire? I have heard it all.
@bucklelanefarm Ай бұрын
Tern collywobbles?
@AdamWatson001 Ай бұрын
4:56 Cory Mac!? Lol
@jimbobcox81 Ай бұрын
collywobbles and illumination
@flush_me Ай бұрын
Collywobbles and Cantilevered
@ThangiahGopal-iy2hg Ай бұрын
சிறப்பு👍
@efixx Ай бұрын
Thank you. 😊
@royw.1220 Ай бұрын
Collywobbles and cantilever!
@efixx Ай бұрын
Great guesses, make sure you listen on Monday to see if you're right.
@tcpnetworks Ай бұрын
Bulb? Lamp? GLOBE!!
@EdwardBretherton Ай бұрын
cantilever and collywobbles , got my goody bag 😁👍
@efixx Ай бұрын
Yay! Glad it came through. 😃 Thanks for your patience!
@gmbs360 Ай бұрын
Collywobbles and cantilevered?
@efixx Ай бұрын
Great guesses, listen to next week's show to see if you're right. 😁
@jensschroder8214 Ай бұрын
Type A are cheap, type F are affordable and type B are expensive. As far as I know, type AC are not allowed.
@mark_just_mark Ай бұрын
Collywobbles and Envelope
@efixx Ай бұрын
I'm running out of different prizes for you Mark. 😂
@mark_just_mark Ай бұрын
Two arrived this week, in separate packages…you should have saved the postage and sent them together 😜
@rogerbrookfield9232 Ай бұрын
Cantilever and plumage
@gadgetman36 Ай бұрын
It's a light bulb.
@efixx Ай бұрын
Is it though? 🤔😂
@gadgetman36 Ай бұрын
@@efixx Yes. It's in every dictionary!
@mark_just_mark Ай бұрын
Hmm, Passionfruit one word eh!!!???
@efixx Ай бұрын
Sorry Mark, an unintentional redherring... 😂
@mark_just_mark Ай бұрын
Don’t worry, I had to Google it to make sure 🤣
@peto22 Ай бұрын
It's really great that our standards do not require an RCD for permanently installed devices.
@deang5622 Ай бұрын
I will leave you to consider why that is. Try thinking about it.
@peto22 Ай бұрын
@@deang5622 Simple, there is no need for RCD for such devices in our system.
@chrishorrocks4882 Ай бұрын
Colywobbles and cantilever
@tcpnetworks Ай бұрын
Collywobbles?
@Jasonf-km5mq Ай бұрын
collywobbles, cantilevered
@iancoles1349 Ай бұрын
Why so late doing
@Daniel37parker Ай бұрын
collywobbles and boyscouts
@Jasonf-km5mq Ай бұрын
collywobble, plumage
@rogerbrookfield9232 Ай бұрын
Punch cantilevered
@retrozmachine1189 Ай бұрын
Heat pump installers getting a B on their exam results.
@philipbennett2183 Ай бұрын
kzfaq.info/get/bejne/rc6PiJuH09m5iXk.html .------------ Just another debate.
@efixx Ай бұрын
Nearly a four candles moment
@retrozmachine1189 Ай бұрын
The shortage of skilled labour in Australia at the moment is causing some stupidly generous remuneration packages. The Queensland government is essentially giving away buckets of money while people in the real world are doing it tough. Imagine getting paid an additional $AUD1000 a week simply because your job site is 50km away from your home. Yes, that's the sort of insanity that is going on down here.
@yrification Ай бұрын
It goes back installers. The heat pump only or solar only, generally aren’t electricians or have any “general” electrical knowledge apart from what they do day to day.
@kopspijker3515 Ай бұрын
Like the 2 dutch words ijskast(icebox) and koelkast(cool cupboard. ie fridge). You will know in an instant the background of the person as the icebox was for the wealthy. Both mean the same thing.
@efixx Ай бұрын
😂 Very insightful. 😃
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