Thanks for watching this clip. Full podcast with Elon Musk and Lex Fridman is here: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/et6CeNBk2JfXk3U.html

I’m from Switzerland, we have direct democracy. I wouldn’t change it for sure

Never thought of old laws as memory leaks. That's a brilliant analogy.

These two points - direct democracy and removing unnecessary laws - are two really profound points and I’m glad someone as influential as Elon Musk is thinking about it and brining it to the forefront of human thinking, thanks to you and your podcast, Lex!

Completely agree with Elon, our system is antiquated and representative democracy doesn't work because those in power aren't held accountable.

Read Robert Heinlein’s The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, a brilliant novel on colonization and government

Maybe direct democracy will work at Mars; your average human 'Martian' will most likely be an informed citizen, an absolute necessity for a direct democracy to work (or any democracy for that matter)

That bit of them joking about accepting cookies had me laughing way harder than it should've.

Martian laws should have a voted on expiration date and reinstatement proportion to dictate when laws need to be reviewed and by what minority or majority is required to renew it.

we tried "direct democracy" here in Italy when the new "5 Stars Movement" came out over 10 years ago. People discussed and voted online about anything. This idea that over 100 people 51 ignorants can decide for the remaining 49 educated person is a problem. Look at Covid. People is easily tricked into believing absurdities. I am for direct democracy IF people knows what they are voting about. Ignorance, lazyness, prejudice, phobias, religious beliefs, personal interests and other factors can lead a person to vote for something that won't be the best choice for the community but that suits best his own view on things. I am not saying democracy is working here in Italy (nor in USA, for what I see) but putting people together is not easy per se and easy solutions are not the answer.

It's very scary to anyone with a sense of history to hear Elon's thoughts regarding direct democracy. The founding fathers of America went out of their way to make sure America was NOT a democracy because they understood how easily majority's can be swayed to vote in a tyranny, as has happened every single time it's ever been tried. That's specifically why they made the US a Representative Republic. That Elon, the person who probably will be the one to make humanity a two planet species if anyone will, doesn't know this makes me very worried for the prospects of any extra-terrestrial human colonies.

There seems to be a problem with every form of government I can think of... the problem with direct democracy is that people can be persuaded into making stupid decisions. There is also the potential that 51% of the people can make slaves of the other 49% of the people. Still, it seems to be a better option than a representative democracy, which is vulnerable to massive corruption.

Thought my internet was lagging, nup just Elon's pauses... It almost as if he thinks about what he is about to say... Rare

We should aim to decentralise power and implement protocols to prevent it's centralisation. There is no need for a central government.

Direct democracy is like two wolves and a sheep deciding what’s for dinner.

One of your most brilliant clips.

The biggest thing about direct democracy is are things proposed in the first place? Does one person submit something and its voted on? Does it have to have a certain number of signatures i.e. petitions? Interesting to think about.

The most important policy event in World War II was the increase of tax revenue for shared public projects rather than private adventures. The vast increase of spending was the determining factor; the simplification of rules - to the extent Elon's claim is actually true - followed the money. Hey but I know, life's better on Mars.

Once a space colony becomes self sustaining it will get crazy. I could definitely see it splitting off from earth and doing its own thing

Funny thing about colonizing Mars is that Mars wouldn't be a colony forever. It would eventually develop into a powerful independent planet and a potential threat or trading partner.

2:45 lex was so darn happy that Elon agreed with one of his most griped about things. Elon is a God

Took me a full minute to understand they were talking about *internet* cookies.

No government, just freedom.

I would love an AI to run the government. Imagine every Sunday you get a list of things to vote for and when you pick something the AI would show you data of things that would be positively/negatively affected based on its simulations. Basically make the AI's job to give us all the information we need and to manage bills (like let's say a bill is showing conflict between colony A and B. The AI sees this and issues an urgent bill to send out for vote to fix).

Democracy is a sneaky word and needs to be properly defined. If Elon means voting, generally- that’s fine. But democracy means “mob rule” or majority rule- and therefore, there has to be limits on a majority. A majority can’t vote your house, money, children etc away. We need a constitution that is absolute in principles and allows voting on very minor issues- none that can ever trump individual rights

He captured the feeling of hitting that accept cookies button perfectly! Also, what psychopaths actually want notifications from random websites?

"What do they want with this cookie!?" Lol.

He’s a genius….but, so were America’s founders. After considering the inevitable results of “direct democracy” throughout history, they determined a representative government, restrained and with dispersed power to be ideal. I thoroughly respect Musks’genius, particularly when it comes to brilliant acts of engineering. For government, I’ll stick with Jefferson and Adams.

Elon: makes fun of Web3 also Elon: how DAOs are run are how we should run governments.

Laws and bills should go before a jury of 12 5th graders. If 2/3rd of the 5th graders understand the law or bill it can continue. If less than 2/3rds understand the law or bill should expire.

Breathe. Just...breathe. Love and Peace.

No politicians for life two terms then out. Politicians in safe seats in for decades is a big problems too.

Regardless, I think it’s best to start with no government and work our way up as needed.

Hey Lex I always thought that version control would be great for written law. No sneaky changes in obscure bills. Or, commits, I suppose.

give all the regulations an expiration date or and let Dojo decide what to keep by running simulations on what works best, e.g.: in case of a pandemic, and/or global economic and moral decay. Hey, wait a minute!!!

Direct democracy would descend into tyranny of the majority. Example: Majority of people on Mars thinks that keeping a certain race of other people as slaves is okay, it is then therefore okay/legal.

a garbage collection system for rules and regulations... wow, first time hearing that idea applied outside the programming world, but its such a good concept... really liked that analogy

Direct democracy is effectively the tyranny of mob rule which makes demagoguery that much easier. I couldn't agree more about the problem of disproportionate influence of special interests, but the reason they're a problem isn't inherently the fault of the representative system. There are particular reasons why this has become a problem to which there are solutions. Proportional representative republics allow both the democratic will of the people while also giving those in a minority group interest a voice and actual say at the table (this is ultimately why we need to apply electoral colleges to the state level in addition to the national level, that way one or two massively overpopulated, centrally controlled cities don't speak for and drown out the voices of everyone else everywhere else in their states like we see in states like New York, Illinois, California, Texas and the like).

So much respect for this man... Direct democracy!!

Question: why wouldn’t we first try to colonize the moon instead of Mars? I mean, if anything goes wrong, some sort of rescue operation could be there in a few days, as opposed to, you know, never.

Elon’s insight always impresses me.

Great question

I agree with direct democracy. I prefer that much more than the system that is in place which only allows us a representative for democracy. We as people need to be allowed to vote bills,laws in. And have it readily explained in layman terms for people who don't understand what is being presented to them

government laws are nothing more than opinions with guns.

you can change your settings to auto accept the cookies

Direct Democracy is the way to go!!!!!!!! Absolute Transparency!!!!!!!!!!!! NO MORE CORRUPT POLITICIANS!!!!!!!!!!!

One law that is virtually sunsetted when it shouldn't be, is antitrust. We are rife with monopolies like the Meat packers who are inflating beef prices while destroying small ranchers. The government hasn't enforced anti-monopoly law for decades.

Thumbnail giving me rocky 4 vibes

But the technical problem is that, laws are not possible to be short enough for people to understand. The representative democracy contributes to the civilization by saving people's time on both learning the subjects and studying new laws. Edit: but if people can truly deal with the voting with like 1% of their time and deal properly, this is totally another case. I still remember when Elon said their FSD is not gonna based on laser radar, I thought he not understand the tech, but it turned out he was right. This makes me question myself of the understanding of democracy.

The code shouldn't be removed, it should rather be refactored. The same with the laws, each law should be taken up for suggested updates in the senate rather than removing them.

- Direct Democracy - No Unnecessary Laws ^ Pick ONE. ^

Ideas like needing 60% to pass and 40% to remove a law are undemocratic. In both instances, the majority of a population can want something but get outvoted by fewer people. This all just sounds like a businessman frustrated by regulations and wanting a world of unregulated capitalism

i would worry with food on mars , not an ounce of bacon

somehow Elon sounds like he smoked a cigarette before the interview, but didn't have time to exhale.

not the biggest musk fan but I respect his mind, however the idea that "special interests" wont appear in a direct democracy is simply not probable. interest groups exist in all forms of government

i've at least accepted 50 cookies, but received none

"It should be easier to remove a law than add one." Well, at least not more than twice as difficult.

60% vote to make a law. 40% to remove it. Law comes in. Law goes out. Law comes in. Law goes out. Law comes in. Law goes out. Why is this happening?

This discussion is more relevant than ever

Why does the majority have a say on the minority? Why do you assume it gets the best results? What if the majority votes on slaves? Constant infringement on liberties would happen with this

"Open a portal to hell", I fell and couldn't stop laughing.

Do You know what breaks, any type of government?

Why wait for mars?

The native Martians that live underground aren't going to agree with any of that.

If representatives don’t exist in politics for the masses, than social media or that particular medium will be adequate for voting purposes- which means this will lead to anarchy. Opportunities to undermine and hack this system of democracy. Voting mafias will exist. Streamlining laws will become subjective and people’s self interest will negate this utopian ideal of a new govnt order. It’s benign yet naive. It needs and serves more sophistication than just a direct democracy.

The best thing you can do is have short term limits for politicians, regardless of the system.

Give laws time limits with the option to renew, update, or end. 10 years at a time or something. The laws from 200 years ago are likely to be outdated, misinterpreted for the current day. Plenty of that nonsense being used for the wrong reasons in our current USA system.

Mars should develop better criteria to be eligible to vote. You can't just turn 18 and be eligible to vote. A person must demonstrate a reasonable grasp of the issues before they can be allowed to vote regarding some law or to vote for a government representative or leader.

I think the internet + mobile age make direct democracy so easy to implement. "Representative" happened because you couldn't possibly reach 350 million people directly (or 1.3 billion) etc for every bill / law. Now you can with your mobile. But who's going to change the system and how?

The last thing Elon said does not sound right to me: 60% for a law to take effect and 40% to remove it. Well aren't both conditions met when the vote is split 60:40? Or does he mean >60 and >40?

Elected politicians should discuss and propose laws and the citizens should then vote whether to adopt a law or not.

For one, it’s refreshing to hear a billionaire say we need to get rid of rules and regulations- and it’s not surprising, considering billionaires know how to produce value and they know how hard it is to do so. Secondly, if a rule and regulation needs and expiration date for “garbage removal” then one should ask; “why does it exist in the first place?” The only proper function of the government is to protect property rights/individual rights (one in the same). The only “rules and regulations” the government should enforce is the property and contracts between people.

On the whole old law things, I'm like 99% sure we've an old law in Denmark that excludes you from a prison sentence, if your victim was a wet swede close to the ocean. (implying he is an illegal immigrant/terrorist)

Any government that is open to criticism and wants the best for us, not them

Love the idea of "garbage collection" on rules/regs, but then there needs to be as much attention on such. Sunsetting isn't considered it seems when everyone proposes "fixes". So we add, add, add and not plan for cutting inevitable waste. This is the huge defect across all PM.

Imagine the Martian Flu vaccine (s)

People dies but laws don't

The House of Representatives is no longer needed now that we have the internet.

Good question

There is a mechanism in law making for garbage collection its the sunset provisions but unfortunately most aren't because most laws are written by special interests who never want to give up power and laws are tiny little exhibitions of power over someone else's life.

I've thought about this for a while before this podcast. The other issue is having an up-to-date changelog of all the logs that everyone knows is the single source of truth. It's hard to find laws for many things currently. With the way the current systems work, laws simply cannot keep up with everything, we need higher bandwidth of law discovery and resolution, along with interpretability.

Cookies feels to personal for me to give sorry

I like the idea of a direct democracy however I believe I'd be very difficult to do. I know Switzerland is an example that works and I won't neglect that fact and good for them. However the political climate I feel like is a lot less tense over there and I believe that they happen to be more "traditional" in their own sense, similar to japan where the media or propaganda isn't so vulgar. Imagine taking everyone from the United States onto mars and forming a direct democracy. I'd be a cluster fuck, especially since Mars doesn't have "states" and thats one benefit to living in the United States, each state has the ability to regulate certain laws. I like the idea of some things being able to be voted in by the people through direct democracy, however I feel as if something things should be left to the more educated people in society (or people who actually have knowledge law and politics in general)

That laws be short enough people understand them is a constitutional requirement….it’s just ignored…

To eventually approach reason, remove six old laws for every five new ones.

60% vote to make a law is good but 40% to remove it? So can't the 40% who didn't vote for a law just remove it all the time?

Probably would work for a small population

If you want freedom & justice then an anarchist system is the way forward, that way you can have direct democracy

the last line doesnt make sense. the 40% that didnt approve the law in the first place can then just go ahead and remove it

Will the Law be created to allow something or to prevent something? Will ignorance of the Law be an excuse? Will violating the Law be punishable by one or all? Will obeying the Law be rewarded by all or one? Will there be a thought police created to enforce the Law, before it is obeyed or broken? Can every individual create a Law for the benefit of one or all? How many individuals will it take to pass a Law? Will there be equity in the number of Laws passed to insure that all individuals benefit?

Objectivism, basicly the first American ideals but without slavery, religion and a goverment with control over the market and free speech wouldve been cool to see. Probably a bad idea but cool to see non the less, especially now when most of those freedoms are going bye bye down here on earth.

There accept all cookies extensions for your browser.

Nobody in Monaco is losing sleep over how much democracy there is, direct or otherwise. If infrastructure works and property is protected that should be enough to get the ball rolling. Once round trips are affordable enough to ship cheap goods and stimulate interplanetary trade is when there will be real problems. Malaise is likely a bigger threat to a martian colony than some form of tyrannical populism or autocracy.

Any government that doesn’t lie to their citizens

He’s recommending DAOs

Any government that is not power hungry nor greedy

so between expecting people to get an understanding and vote on every issue directly and expecting them to also semi-reguarly vote on existing laws, at what point do people have the free time to pursue individual endeavours? Representative democracy has flaws, like all systems, but at least it caters for specialization and for people who don't care and don't know enough on specific things. Instead of this law expiry date, why wouldn't you just put up individual laws that need review on a case by case basis in the same way that whatever new law to vote on is done, like what is done in current governments. Do people really need to vote every 5 years that murder by 1st degree weapon is illegal, then by 2nd degree, then by 3rd etc. Old and outdated laws exist and courts often don't pursue them because there is more to a legal system than what is directly written in some constitution or bill of rights. And they dont get changed because there's no need to and it'd be a waste of time and resources. Elon is great at what he does, but not everyone is an expert in everything. It's fine to say "look i dont know, im the engineering guy on how to get there, that's a question for a political philosopher". Maybe if he stuck to what he was good at, he wouldn't be ruining Tesla with his misadventures in Twitter

I've never accepted a cookie. That's how they get you

There IS a mechanism to weed out laws that are no longer useful to society. The problem is it's rarey used. In public policy, a sunset provision or sunset clause is a measure within a statute, regulation or other law that provides that the law shall cease to have effect after a specific date, unless further legislative action is taken to extend the law.

Heh, Antarctica is a tropical paradise compared to Mars.