His answer is just an evasive way to say "Lidar is too expensive to be used in your 100k tesla...", meanwhile processing the streams from the cameras represents a heavy computational workload for real-time identification of features... distance evaluation, and all the matrix algebra involved. Lidar provides real-time distance "measurement" in 3D at very low latency and requires less cpu intensive processing. Last never the least lidar will work day and night regardless of light, which is required by the cameras feeding the CV module. How about cameras + Lidar ? For added safety and redundancy...

Lidar is not supposed to be substituting camera vision, but to augment it with additional information. Sure you can measure depth with stereo vision, but only if the object has sufficient contrast and illumination. When you're driving in the full sun, and are about to go inside a dark tunnel, cameras can't see inside the tunnel. When there's a white truck against a white background, there may not be enough contrast to see it. At night, cameras can only see where the headlights point. Stereo vision only works when you have multiple cameras looking at the same object, which is a problem for the Tesla because the B pillar camera is the only one that covers important side view sections.

1:40 Just because humans perform driving using vision alone, doesn't mean an autonomous driving system will not benefit from accurate depth information via lidar. If humans had the physical capability for distance sensing for eg. echolocation like bats or dolphins, you can bet we will be using that ability for driving

Remember that he sold 1 million+ cars with cameras only and the promise so unlock autonomous driving in the future. He simply CAN'T praise lidar now.

Their argument of vision only is based on the premise that vision alone is 100% accurate.

I don’t think it’s right to say that either option is the correct way. Safety is the number one focus and if both systems together can compliment each other to provide enhanced safety measures then I can see that happening in the near future. There have been numerous crashes and issues using just one or the other and if used together, it could vastly improve pedestrian/driver safety.

I think it would be lame to rely on only cameras. Learning through different sources is the way to go

Those guys are clueless. Airplanes have VFR for clear skies and IFR when no vision is possible. The more sensors, the better.

LiDar is corrupted by Fog , Rain, Falling Leaves and Snow. FSD is also flawed . What TESLA needs is a dedicated AI brain on each car system.

i dont know.. when it comes to 3d scanning , Lidar is faster and way more effective then photogrammetry using massers of visual data and processing it into a bizarre zombie version of a 3d model.. but i do agree with him about cell structures is way ahead of our technology. The problem is that we wont be able to get our technology anywhere close to the level eyesight is on in our life time, since that would require fully understanding how our brain works (and getting our conciousness to understand itself without commiting suicide)

The fly don't use LIDAR.

Does Elon know there is an automotive lidar on the market that offers dynamic range at low latency, and is under $500 per unit? Hell you cant even buy a car bumper for that much!

What about when it’s Fog or dark how reliable will be vision. In those scenario Lidar is necessary. So to use fully autonomous vehicle probably need lidar and vision both for safety and reliability. Am I wrong ?? Anyone who can answer

this was 2 years ago which is a century in tech. Lidar is down to 500 $ and Tesla is using it on their next gen cars

But the problem with cameras is fast changing light settings and dark spots of course the different angles of an object

Wouldn't your car need a freakin' super computer onboard to run this neural net??

Bruh 🤦🏿‍♂️ even a kid would let you know redundancy is best. They really got lost in the sauce of "once you solve vision, you solve autonomy" my brother in christ, you're not getting full self driving if you're stubborn aboutyour data streams.

He is completely missing the point that during biological vision, the eyes move very fast and focus constantly to get the best perception possible, cameras can't do that. I wish humans had active vision like lidars, bc perception of depth based on vision alone is not very accurate to begin with. Musk is wrong here.

As a 3D artist and Python developer, I see that direction and need to achieve the level of the human eye for vehicular observation & navigation. In order to do this they are not only going to have to pursue vision but what he said was we had to develop our own LIDAR so now they will have to develop ocular-based camera technology to achieve their results.

Cue the video of a Tesla completely yeeting a child sized doll while all the other Thomas cars using lidar detect said doll and come to a full and complete stop

As far i can agree with this reasoning "humans use only eyesight, so autonomous cars should do the same" i think it's not bad to use "superior senses". It's like saying "people moves through legs, so cars should have legs". Yes, it can be sufficient but simply with wheels cars can go faster

Humans crash cars all the time and are a horrible benchmark for autonomous vehicles so saying humans can navigate without lidar is really not a good argument. You can use cameras and such to infer distance but feed in accurate depth data into that data-set and you'll have huge improvements in your learning algo. Additionally, Lidar doesn't need black box ML algorithms to produce the depth data, so make for more a more predictable system which is great for a safety mechanism. Machine learning algorithms frequently act unpredictably when presented data that wasn't in their training set, and we can see that there have been crashes in Tesla cars that simply wouldn't happen if they had lidar data to check the algo. Additionally, Lidar is getting cheaper... it's in consumer electronics so this idea that it's expensive is evaporating quickly. Maybe Musk is right and once we "solve" computer vision, lidar will be unnecessary, but if we can get cheap accurate depth data, why not?

Elon Musk likes to compare self driving against human drivers but he should remember that each human driver is legally responsible for his own failures. Near-perfection is not good enough for automobiles that are mass produced in millions and drive many miles every day. The problem with machine learning-based computer vision is that it can never guarantee its results, and that small chance of failure will eventually cause accidents in many places. Lidar is worth the effort if it can eventually reduce the chance of accidents by a very small amount.

Given most humans can't drive worth their a**... I'd give lidar a try.

I'm thinking we're missing out a lot by not having olfactory sensors as part of self-driving cars. It's crucial to modern route planning both to find desirable destinations, and also areas which should be avoided.

I disliked the modern internet hyperbole of using words like "slam" or "hate." Just because Elon Musk says that LIDAR is a bad idea doesn't mean he "hates" it or is "slamming" it. Maybe to investors hopped up on adderal and cocaine it may seem that way but he's casually saying it is a bad idea and we shouldn't depend on it and give up on the idea of autonomous cars.

And then it rains, is dusty, or there is fog. or you come up against a highly reflective or highy mat surface that imagery cannot percieve depth from.

I would agree with Elon Musk, if they had cameras with comparable performance to the human eye. Unfortunately such a sensor is not have been made. For that reason i think that lidar is necessary to make up for the lack of information. Also it is not bad at all, if the computer have more information about the dept, than a human, there are accidents where false dept perception was the cause. I agree that vision should be the primary information source, and for that reason you don't need a state of the art lidar system, a worse consumer grade sensor would be plenty.

One thing people dont understand lidar( infra-red ) and vision (visible light) are the same thing with just different wavelength !

Watching this video as Xpeng just announced it's dropping Lidar.

seriously doubt someone as unqualified as elon "spearheaded" creating spaceX's LiDAR. what he means is the same thing Steve jobs meant, someone else designed it and he announced it

If the goal is to solve driving in good weather than sure cameras can solve the problem but if we want our self driving cars to go beyond the capabilities of human vision and drive safely in low visibility situation than at this point of time Lidar is the best solution. My prediction is that in the future Teslas will only run inside tunnels OR Elon will be forced to add Lidars as backup. After all extra $300 bucks on a $40,000 car means nothing when it comes to Human life.

Lidar can tell me if im actually heading into a tunnel or if the roadrunner painted visually accurate tunnel in front of my Wile E Coyote ass. Visual information like symbols, traffic, road signs, pedestrians yes That should be visual. and it is my job to see it. but lidar aids that. Lidar is objective. Lidar says, with certainty, something is truly there, and isn't an illusion or mirage. And there is a measurement between source, and target. Where with a camera, there isn't. Cameras help me see an image with immediacy an image I need to see now, and with clarity to extended ranges Lidar needs to work in TANDEM with my camera to tell me how far away everything is, as lidar alone cannot produce visual clarity like a camera can, but Lidar provides objectivity in what its lasers CAN hit. so that my car can respond to it My car is my co-pilot in this endeavor. If I get something wrong, the car gets it right. If the car gets something wrong, my judgement corrects it. And together we form a complete brain Removing LIDAR is like removing touch from your senses. You are going to notice that sense being missing And wish you had it once its gone. It would be like if your hearing went from stereo to mono, and you could no longer tell relative directions and distances of sound sources. It would be maddening to not have a vast combination of complex senses after previously having them.

how do the cameras do with rain on them or fogged up ?

3:04 my brain must be broken, they are the same size for me.

i think they both have to work together lidar and vision! what if theres no light how can vision see??

He promoted Hyperloop too. People make mistakes.

He said it as if he only uses important matters, not for the average family with babies on board

The compute power is what makes lidar better. You can do a lidar scan with a Resepi lidar unit from Inertial Labs and the small internal unit can make a 3d cloud almost instantly. 30s after landing a drone you have a point cloud compared wit 5-6 hours with picture for 3d mapping. In other words lidar gives far more detail far quicker.... and yes it is expensive.. a Resepi Lidar unit costs 30K so it isn't viable for vehicles yet and cheap lidar isn't much better then a camera.

The point of computers and tech is to be able to do what humans cannot, why is there this emphasis to try making vision systems behave exactly like we do? Computer vision isn't great. I've heard of Teslas crashing into motorcycles because the computer vision thinks the two very close, low down tail lights on a motorcycle, especially a touring motorcycle are in fact a distant car. Absolute joke, LiDAR would have seen this.

Never trust a salesman talking about technology.

LiDAR helps to do a lot of new things that you are not able to do without it. Digital twins are one example of it.

Lidar isn't even expensive, and is obviously in many ways superior to stereo camera vision for measuring distance, etc

VOLVO will be using LIDAR for the EX90. Lidar is not lame. VOLVO knows about safety. Trust me on this. radar ranging is also essential technology and TESLA shouLd be using it not removing it and then patenting a SUPER RADAR!

Normal glasses was not made to see better in the dark, only a infrared glasses, i mean LIDAR was developed to air surveillance and reconnaissance, not to sensor of self drive car

Instead, smart use Lidar to win battles 🎉. If every country get lidar in their military and a nuclear, no one can threaten you.

I hope that one day only cameras will allow full autonomous driving, but why not using LIDAR until we reach that? Moreover i think it could be a great redundant feature, since also human eyesight can sometimes be confused, while whit LIDAR you "can't get confused". Furthermore if the problem is the cost, maybe the way to go for autonomous veichles is semi-public transportation like Waymo is doing, so that you have really expensive and safe cars but its cost is splitted in lots of users (though it would be nice to have private autonomous cars too)

If Lidar's cost comes down to just couple thousand, is it still stupid?

Specifically speaking navigation in a car? What if i am a sailboat entering a channel of ever changing currents and shoals. I fly a drone of the entire sweep of of the channel overlaid with the contour of an existing navigational map. Another passive income owner 80 acres of timber wants a real time summary of how many trees, what volume, board feet, and have an almost perfect analysis of volume, count and board feet. So just one of many aspects of the use cases, and saying it is lame, is like saying the docking with the docking station is lame. Practical value is realtime mapping of growth, change and passive fingerprinting for the mariners, woodland owners, farmers, and developers of the future cities that did not have the supply chain or the trail surveyors map. So the title may be invalid and lame for saying lidar is lame, the value to surveying damage, growth or change far outweighs robotic navigation for space station or car driving. Great to know it is lame for your products. Now what about those who work to feed, house, and navigate the channels of life.

I think that is too broad we had to use right tool for the right job . For fast and long range then lidar is good like drone aerial photography but for deep underground or behind building then ultrasound and radio wave , microwave and nano aloha are unbeatable and harmless so each is designed 2ith functional in mind

People joking Tesla engineers only account for weather in California when design the car but forgot about the rest of country 😅 they still can’t make the wiper work properly yet 😂😂

The question: if human could shoot lasers and get depthmap on top of the color vision, how the brain could it? Why evolution totally skipped that capacity? or maybe it has been developped, but it was a failure and so disappeared.

Compare Bat vs Human navigation ability hmmm

The statement that no one uses lidar to navigate our body is facetious. Of course we dont, but we also arent made of inorganic material. A computer and a brain are two very different things working on two very different spectrums.

but camera can not see well in low light/rain/fog condition, and LiDAR has become much cheaper now due to technology advancement

elon out of his depth as usual

What about infrared and other wavelengths of light? They provide all the characteristics of traditional human vision

Guaranteed Elon uses LiDAR

The people talking about Lidar clearly didn't watch the video. If you watch the very end, he states the benefits of Lidar.

first of all using autonomous vehicles to drive us around is lame. I don't want to rely on any kind of machine to decide how and when to drive me around. I don't want my life to have to adjust to the autonomous machine in order for me to get around. I want to remain the one in control of my whereabouts and I want to remain as the one to be in control of the machine that'll take me to and from where ever I may be going. I don't want my life to be autonomously controlled by any kind of machine. I don't care if it makes everything else run smoother for everybody else, I care on weather or not I'm in control of whatever may make my life smoother. When you go to an amusement park ride, you are not in control of the vehicle you are in, I don't want my travels to be limited to have to stay in my vehicle till the vehicle stops and it decides and tells me when it's safe for me to exit.

Humans drive with eyes, so cars can do it with cameras. Well, maybe yes, but why not using Lidars in ADDITION to cameras? If we follow that reasoning humans don't have eyes behind their head, so we should remove cameras from the back of the car? Maybe cars will be able to drive with cameras, but for sure they will drive better with lidars

I agree and disagree. 1) Developing AI camera based computer vision equal to that of human capabilities is essential. Using LiDAR as a crunch is for losers 2) Driving down the price of all sensors to a few cents/dollars is essential 2b) Once the price of a sensor is low enough to be negligible, adding it to a tech stack increases future capabilities and use cases

With optics and image analysis you get the probability of an object, with lidar you get solid data. Too many bugs with visual perception.

So basically lidar is long distance brail

Lidar for landing gear on rockets ….

What if it’s pitch black dark?

Yeah, Elon musk doesn’t use LiDar, instead, use super expensive gpu for all the vision tasks. Must be genius for budget

elon musk is really one to talk about “expensive and unnecessary”

Elon is a tool. LIDAR is the future for improving autonomous driving.

this makes intent. Profit motive with intent. I could build a case with this.

Imagine an NFL quarterback retrofitted with LiDAR and software uploaded into his brain to compliment his eyesight. It’s just a ridiculous example but you’d get complete passes all day.

I call bullshit. Visual interpretation is susceptible to misinterpretation. Lidar is a theoretical bump stop.

But the cars hit ppl and crash

Very Interesting stuff

Fact vision can’t detect distance as lidar. If China solves the cost to be affordable than they will lead better car autonomy.

U cannot call someone’s invention stupid

his attitude is why people burned to death in his cars

When you’re parking it’s helpful. Change my mind. I tested it in cars. You can’t see everything with cameras unless you have cameras everywhere 360. Animals, children, objects. Cameras. And our vision and cameras aren’t perfect. Try doing it in a low light environment. Why calling it lame in the first place if you developed your own one and use it with space X? Typical Elon click baiting irl. It has flaws yes but it isn’t lame. Expensive? Yes. Not ergonomic? Maybe yes. But for someone who’s vision is deteriorating with time where my perception is changing lidar is very helpful in the city. I do see how on US roads it’s unnecessary though. But I’m from EU.

Недавно занялся вопросами робототехники, и сейчас в основном собираю информацию, и как видится, что-то идёт в тупик. По какой-то причине уже де-факто стандартами в робототехнике стали ROS/ROS2, лидары и SLAM. Команды разработчиков роботов создают девайсы для участия в очень стерилизованных соревнованиях, имеющих мало чего общего с реальной жизнью, и почти всё рабочее время тратят не на разработку новых алгоритмов, а на решение dependency hell между несколькими фреймворками. И не спроста у ROS в визуализации вместо робота выступает черепаха. По большому счёту на таком стеке технологий только черепаху создать и можно. Робот пылесос, доставщик продуктов и складская тележка это предел такого подхода. И тут Илон в принципе подтверждает, что лидары могут использоваться в лучшем случае как вспомогательная технология, и то только в определённых задачах. Да и ещё в 1970м году СССР запустил первый луноход который вообще без всего этого обходился.

just like a human would normally do, an autonomous car should adapt its driving choice according to the visibility conditions. ex: If a autonomous car can see through fog and so doesn't need to slow down, that would be seen as danger for other non-robot drivers, and so create a grater danger.

Engineer. Don't forget.

So funny when it thought about how a ai is Able to tell where it is I thought dots

Yet another thing Elon will be wrong about. Lidar allows for so much more data that a simple camera just can't do reliably. Try using AR apps on an iPhone with the lidar sensor and an iPhone without one see which is more accurate.

Diffraction limited, all I have to say.

My car has Lidar and saved me a couple of times. In this age of cellphones almost everyone are on their phones while driving so LiDar is necessary

Con men LiDAR is the future

Lidar on the street cams no more crims demolition man future total recall

Guess cars functioning at night is for losers. unless... well I'm sure 360 degree infrared will be much cheaper /s

and winners have his FSD crash into police cars, one after another

Someone bring Musk to Lahore, Paksitan. So he may check fog here. No eye can work here. 😅. So the cameras won't. Self driving cars are supposed to overcome the humans weak points as well. Like no vision in the case of fog etc.

it is almost end of 2022, there will be a very little time left when he will have to eat what he said here.

I love how the captions are just a strong simplification of what is being said without question, like tech could be summarized as "good" or "bad". This Musk's groupies should start a cult.

OK, release your product when you actually "solve vision".

Yes

And losers deal with musk.

More money for musk

Agree with Elon

ahahahhahahhahahaahahaahahahahahhahahaaaaaaaaaahhhhahhahahhahahahahhahahahahahhahha

Game theory in action. Give more ideas

Lying about LiDAR 😏