2 Ways Lithium KILLS Your Alternator (and how to prevent it)
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In this week's video, I answer the question "Is my alternator safe with LiFePO4 batteries?" The answer is... it isn't-unless you take precautions.
In this video, I refer to a thermal switch I bought. It was a 10-amp, normally-closed thermal switch. I chose one rated for shutdown at 110-degrees C. That temperature is something you should choose yourself, but I think that is a good number for a thermo-switch mounted inside the alternator case.
In preparing for this video I searched eBay again and found a better choice. This is the same basic thing, but this one is rated for 16a. That would be more then plenty for any alternator I've seen. Also, it's CHEAPER!
www.ebay.com/itm/144996884088?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=gfQjjFrDQrm&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=3Zp5jgUhScS&var=444205206204&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
A commenter brought up a concern (thanks Apollo). He thought that the thermal switch might suffer from the back emf of the coil being disconnected when things overheat. He might be right though I have seen this done in motors before. Either way a simple "flyback diode" (Google it) might give extra protection and is cheap and easy to install.
Another thing that I wish I had talked about in this video was engine room ventilation. It seems basic but keep it cooler around your alternator and your alternator will run cooler!
Well as I say the description section is how I reserve the right to get smarter.
If you would like to learn more about the BankManager or order one, check out:
www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
Here is a link to the video where I talk about engine belt upgrade kzfaq.info/get/bejne/icxgZdJhu9-4p3U.html
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@bearchow1929 Жыл бұрын
I'm a highly accomplished electronic engineer in several things including power management systems and devices used in alternators and battery management systems. I passed by your video thinking "what is this non sense". I was quite surprised to find that you are quite technically correct in this video. Excellent job.
@pieterbezuidenhout2741 Жыл бұрын
It's the years experience that sometimes counts more than the Qualifications 😁.
@davelee7572 Жыл бұрын
why not just run a 4x4 relay dual battery VSR? if the bms cuts out the lead acid battery will still be there.
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
Because the lithium gets mischarged by the alternator.
@davelee7572 Жыл бұрын
@@EmilyAndClark mischarged how? "Lithium Ion batteries are charged with an absorption voltage of 14.25 V"
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
They shouldn't be. I suggest you read Conrad's writeup linked to the bottom of this. www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
@CruisingMaya Жыл бұрын
Thanks for the great breakdown, Clark! I'm a marine electrician and have hesitated to do lithium installs on my customers' boats because of the off chance that a BMS opens the circuit, frying the alternator and everything else. I REALLY like that the lead battery is there as a guardian.... and now with ways to thermally protect even internally regulated alternators I'm even more excited. I'm currently cruising, but will be back to work in a few months. I look forward to the next video and the possibility of installing a bank manager. Thanks again for the great video and sharing your knowledge!
@nordic5490 10 ай бұрын
No chance that a soft start 50A BMS can fry the alternator when a 90A compressor, or a 200A winch with ugly back emf, doesnt. The starter battery has very low impedence and is the voltage clamp, in much the same way as a giant zener diode
@EmilyAndClark 10 ай бұрын
@maya. Have you gotten back yet? Did you find an opportunity to do a BankManager install?
@darrellobrien4416 8 ай бұрын
would a flyback diode work with the lithium battery BMS shutting down?
@EmilyAndClark 8 ай бұрын
@@darrellobrien4416 nope. It's not a reversed colapsing field. It's just the alternator making full power. Forward and too strong for a diode anyway.
@CruisingMaya 8 ай бұрын
@EmilyAndClark almost had a customer convinced to get a lithium bank and keep the existing lead acid. They didn't go for it though...
@TreDeuce-qw3kv 8 ай бұрын
And people mistakenly think batteries and charging systems are simple and don't understand why I think they aren't. This post and the following comments/discussion support my contention. I rarely read comments, but I took probably an hour or more to go through these. Very informative and time well spent....👍👍
@EmilyAndClark 8 ай бұрын
Yes Everything is simple until you understand it.
@sailingjoco Жыл бұрын
We’ve been binge watching your content lately. I love the idea of a Lead/Lithium hybrid bank and it looks like you did a great job on your BBMS product. I’m looking forward to this upgrade soon!
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
In just editing an endorsement video from a buyer now. So fun to see how much people like this. I think I'll release it as this week's video. He put it in a really big system.
@michaelm6682 8 ай бұрын
The way the author of this channel explains and teaches reminds me of my enthusiasm for science as a youngster in class (late 70s-early 80s). I’ve had deafness since birth, and what little I could understand verbally was supplemented by visuals in the classroom. The author has many of the qualities of those teachers I admire and I appreciate that very much. Thank you so much. As an adult, with my deafness, KZfaq, with its closed captioning, has made the educational aspects much more accessible thank goodness. With the help of YT, I’m attempting to design & build a 100ah lipo battery system for my truck with limited space. I’ve purchased a Renogy 12V 30A DC to DC Charger with MPPT, On-Board Battery Charger. At the moment, after learning from this video, It’s clear that I need a system that is plug and play. I don’t have the capacity to understand all the science at play here. I use my truck daily as part of my job doing outreach and reliability and safety is my utmost concern. As well as affordability, which is why I’m trying to design and build it myself. I just wish there was a complete system I could install myself with more confidence in those goals. Any suggestions? Thanks for “hearing” me explain my situation in advance. Kind regards.
@EmilyAndClark 8 ай бұрын
You might find this useful. www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
@paulpozboater Жыл бұрын
Love this, thank you Clark! I've learned so much from you. Hope you and Emily are well and I'm so glad you're back on the boat.
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
Thanks Paul
@jimb348 Жыл бұрын
Great information as usual. Your deep understanding of electrical engineering and excellent explanations are what make your technical videos so great. Often other channels, even when providing technical details, are just repeating what they were told by equipment manufacturers. Which is not all bad or wrong, just sometimes not quite all the details that we really need to understand all the issues and make the best decisions. I am looking forward to the alternator tear down. I have often seen people say that you should basically throw away an alternator if you blow the diodes and that has always seemed like it shouldn't be that hard to fix. Thanks for all the great videos. I don't even own a boat yet and may not for several more years, but I'm tempted to buy a BBMS just in case you quit making them. So please give advanced notice if you every decide to quit. But hopefully you will be hugely successful with it and keep making them.
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
So nice of you to say Jim. As for fixing alternators, that could be true based on the cost of US labor. And because of that culture parts are hard to find. Go someplace like the DR or Mexico and everything is fixed. So parts are readily available.
@neilfromclearwaterfl81 Жыл бұрын
@@EmilyAndClark The Alternator parts are all pretty easy to find, at least here in the area around Tampa Bay. Alternator Starter Parts Wholesale in Port Richey Florida is a great resource for (as you might have guessed) alternator and starter parts since the owner is quite passionate about not only having the parts but also the quality of the parts. They recently got me an American Made higher quality long nose starter drive than most put into a rebuilt Marine 454 inboard and got it overnight for pickup at no additional charge. Had a nice motorcycle ride on a beautiful Florida day when I went to pick it up and was able to look a person in the eye and shake a hand. Hopefully his son will continue running the enterprise when he retires. How many folks throw out small appliances just because its cheaper to say replace a $125 portable ice maker because it costs too much to pay someone to put 3 drops of sewing machine oil on the bearings of the computer fan that was used on the condenser. We often don't think of the cost of waste on the environment when we do that and only look at the Dollars and Cents or whatever currency you dealing with. I just fixed a small appliance by taking the 15 minutes to oil the computer fan inside it instead of throwing it away and dropping $125 on a new one. That was like getting paid at a $500 an hour payrate for 15 minutes of work plus it took less time than it would have to purchase a replacement, unbox it, etc, etc along with dispose of the old one. Perhaps we should have a moment of silence for the demise of all the Emmet's and their Fix-It Shops (remember Mayberry) across the country who've fallen victim to the disposable culture we live in. Keep up the good work but don't keep working so hard at it that you don't have enough time to pause and do the simple things like comb your hair. ;> I technically gave you three likes on this one but the counter sadly only accepted the first one. Best!!!
@Tron-Jockey Жыл бұрын
For an extremely down and dirty (cheap) fix you could try putting a BZY91C18 (18V nominal) Stud Mount Zener Diode across the output (DC side) of the alternator. It's rated at 100W Steady State Power and 5000W Peak Pulse Power. They're about $20. Voltage will never go above 19V. Might want to include a current limiting resistor as well.
@jgatkinson744 Жыл бұрын
I remember when alternators first come out I was working for the Ford company on the coast of Mississippi. They sent us to auto school in New Orleans and they explain the function of the alternator they were going to replace the generator on cars and they replace them were the last cars, we had that had generators 1960 alternators took their place the fields turned inside the armature right reversed to what a generator did and you had to have 1 1/2 volt to excite them to make them work. If you had a dead battery you could push that car all day long and it would never generate any power that was a long time ago we have come along way now with electronics . Grate job Clark as always
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
Thanks
@Nerd3927 Жыл бұрын
Excellent! I use a DC DC converter from 12v to 24v since my house battery is 24v, but I never thought of a thermal switch as a protection. Very simple and cheap :-)
@marc4322 Жыл бұрын
Great info as always Clark! Happy to see I am not the only one with vbelts that goes to dust! I will do the upgrade.😊
@brianwnc8168 3 ай бұрын
Your content and presentation is excellent. In the upper threshold of KZfaq influencers that I've watched over many years. I hope you keep up the good work and are taking care of financially for it
@BigDreamsBoating Жыл бұрын
I love the content you guys are creating. Watched a ton and I feel I’ve learned so much. I currently liveaboard but I’m new to this life. Being a construction worker I’m financially challenged but very handy. With this information I’ve been able to enter a new way of life with confidence. Thank you so very much for all the knowledge I’ve gleaned from your content. So badly want a bank manager for my Pearson 40’s solar system and I’m starting from scratch. ❤
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
I have a few black box 1.x units. Same electronics and software but $100 off
@BigDreamsBoating Жыл бұрын
@@EmilyAndClark that’s good to know because function is my only concern. Soon as the budget allows thanks
@dannyjensen4954 10 ай бұрын
Great Lithium topic. If you have a Balmar with an expensive external voltage regulator, you can rig a switch that allows 50% output. You can run in 50% mode by default unless you want to "fast charge". Fast charging is used on exception and prolongs the wear on the water pump pully on my Yanmar 3GM30f motor.
@herberthahn6964 Жыл бұрын
Clark, your tutorials are always full of great information. Emily help with mad scientist look. We all know he isn't mad.
@johnnylightning1491 8 ай бұрын
Thanks Clark, now I have to figure out what kind of alternator I have. Keep the good stuff coming.
@MrZeissOne 7 ай бұрын
Thanks Clark. I'm finding you far more straightforward and informative than the battery manufacturers. Q: If I go either the dc-dc or Battery Bank route, d o I need to install a monitor or alarm/fuseto let me know if it fails? Or, is my first indication smoked alt diodes. I sent an inquiry to LiTime, asking if they are recommending any sort of dc regulator. So far, no response. And I'm finding lithium battery ads pushing their products as "drop in replacements" for lead acid batteries. The alternator is a convenient back-up for cloudy days, so I would really like to retain it as a charging source. However, I've just done an alternator replacement. It was not fun, easy, or cheap, and I'm not looking forward to doing it again soon. Thanks again for this video. It's a valuable service for any of us who go lithium! 4:56
@EmilyAndClark 7 ай бұрын
Li is nowhere close to a drop in replacement for Pb. Even the li charger controllers available today don't charge it right for a long life. To keep your alternator cool the best solution is an external regulator with a temperature sensor. I've always used Balmar. People I respect like Sterling. BankManager and some lead will keep your alternator's diodes safe and charge your Li property for a long life. (So there's my commercial. ) www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms I'm not a fan of DCDC chargers. I think I go into it in the FAQs in the link above
@douglasrobbie9998 Жыл бұрын
Great video, valuable info with minor amount of self-promotion. I see so many people switching to the external regulator alternators at great cost.
@HitTheDirt 7 ай бұрын
Worked in power when many were new. This is also a great video for anyone thinking of building an off grid hybrid solar/mechanical system.
@EmilyAndClark 7 ай бұрын
Thanks
@bitsurfr46 10 ай бұрын
Great video, Clark! I was about ready to go out and buy a DC to DC Charger when you told us that I didn't need one because I bought your Bank Manager.❤
@adelarsen9776 Жыл бұрын
I think it's wonderful that you're helping people. Thanks Clark. :-)
@Knuckledragnation 13 күн бұрын
I’m quite the opposite of the person below who stated they were highly trained and experienced in electrical systems. About all the training I have is enough to know sticking one’s tongue on a 9 volt battery or a fork in a 110v socket is definitely an experience I will remember for the rest of my life. To me electronics are similar to magic but what I will say sir is you definitely explained things in a way that even a caveman like me can understand. Thanks and I look forward to watching more of your videos. ✌🏽
@EmilyAndClark 13 күн бұрын
Thanks, Please consider sharing this video if you think your friends might also like it
@Tron-Jockey Жыл бұрын
For an extremely down and dirty (cheap) fix you could try putting a BZY91C18 (18V nominal) Stud Mount Zener Diode across the output (DC side) of the alternator. It's rated at 100W Steady State Power and 5000W Peak Pulse Power. They're about $20. Voltage will never go above 19V. Might want to include a current limiting resistor as well.
@rylanbrowne5658 Жыл бұрын
Spot on. I was thinking a decent capacitor ocross the battery input
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
Caps can cause other issues. Be careful.
@Les_Grossman 8 ай бұрын
Why not a ZVS like the 1.5KE16CA? Cheaper and biderectional?
@EmilyAndClark 8 ай бұрын
Because I'm pretty sure it will melt. But you are free to try on your boat.
@ar5000 6 ай бұрын
How about adding a metal oxide varistor?
@FullyChargedZone 3 ай бұрын
Good explanation on alternator diode while charging. That's important for people to know that it can ruin their batteries. Most people don't know.
@greenwoodforest8972 2 ай бұрын
Yes, I also forgot about this BMS protection in lithium batteries. One time it crossed my mind the possibility of replacing my lead acid battery in the car with lithium but I thought lithium is too expensive and also in an automotive environment where it becomes too hot, lead acid will be safer to use. Lead acid is already tested by time for decades in the automotive industry. This video is good 'cause a lot of people don't know this and even for people with technical background didn't realize this. It can easily be overlooked. The BMS indeed disconnects the battery from the load for protection. It has MOS-FETs, that works like a solid state circuit breaker. Thanks! 🙂
@jroschella Жыл бұрын
Glad to see you back on the boat.
@Lana_Warwick Жыл бұрын
From the title, I thought it's just another vid about bank manager, but its so much more. Looking forward to the tear down.
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
Thanks Lana
@patrickfitzoot Жыл бұрын
More solid content, well organized. I'm definitely sold on the Bank Manager....but I don't have any lithium yet, so that order will be awhile coming. Cheers.
@leo169 Жыл бұрын
Great idea with the thermally operated switch to control the alternator. Will store that one away for future use. 🙂
@bhartley1024 8 ай бұрын
These thermal switches are so cheap, I don't understand why all motors and alternators aren't thermally protected. I once burned out a Makita planer just planing some hardwood. You spend all that money on a power tool and they can't put thermal protection on the motor?
@bmunday Жыл бұрын
so glad I heard about you from another cruiser. this is HQ content! Thanks clarke!
@ianwillcock6314 Жыл бұрын
Great video as always Clark, now that I know the bbms will protect my alternator from my lithium I can stop worrying about it.
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
Thanks Ian
@benkanobe7500 Жыл бұрын
Your flat (most times installed serpentine) belt also has substantially more surface area compared to a typical "V-Belt" so it wears out much more slowly. Also, a flat belt usually has a spring tensioned self-adjusting pulley that is easy to adjust tension for belt removal and replacement unlike a fixed position pulley on V-Belts which require more tools and frequent adjustment.
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
So much better!!
@stephencox4224 Жыл бұрын
@@EmilyAndClark Not always I have pulled down many engines and found that the amount of tension applied by serpentine belts shows wear on the front upper main bearing shell at about 11 o clock which shows they often have too much tension applied in the design stage, So not everything is all apples in every case
@davidconner-shover51 Жыл бұрын
My fix for this issue, tie in a supercapacitor in parallel to the battery. Iv'e actually blown out two solar charge controllers and nearly took out my inverter over a very similar issue. Smoke and flames, glorious flames! Many of the earlier LiFePO4 4 batteries had a lower cutoff voltage; right around 14.1 volts, the newer ones run around 14.6volts. Regardless, even if the BMS triggers, the cap provides enough cushion to allow the charging equipment to shut down safely. the supercapacitor did 2 things for me, it fixed this issue, it also allowed me to start fairly heavy motors rated at nearly the inverter capacity without issue.
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
What size cap are you using?
@braithmiller Жыл бұрын
Excellent words I now won't have to type either. Thanks. Some have played with varistors temperature compensated. A few sailors tired of the cost of the potted voodoo regulator went hardware simple despite being programers. I have a VSR daisy chain working well till more money. No heat at all. Your BMS in on my wishlist.
@chiraldude Жыл бұрын
For protection from sudden BMS shutdown, why not use a zener diode shunt? A zener diode is non-conductive until the threshold voltage is reached. Then it becomes a near open circuit. If you were to put a zener between the positive and negative charge wires, the voltage spike would be limited. Since the voltage spike would only last a few hundred milliseconds, the zener would be able to dissipate the excess energy with no problem. The alternator regulator will respond and bring the voltage back to normal and the zener shunt will turn off. I did a quick search and found 50W 50V and a 50W 35V zener diodes for around $10.
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
I've tried a zener in the past. It blew like a fuse. I don't remember the specs. Maybe there are better ones now. It's going to have to dissipate 35vx140a, that's like 5kw. That's a lot of power. The time wouldn't be the 400ms. That's how long before the alternator diodes fry and the zener it trying to protect those. It's going to be until the regulator shuts down and then the time it takes for the rotor field to dissipate. If you run the test tell me how it goes. I don't want to risk my alternator.
@teardowndan5364 8 ай бұрын
An alternator under full load can be putting out 200+A for a few ms after the load disappears, your 50W zener will be taking 2000+W during that time. You need something more robust to take the spike. A 15V zener driving the gates of a dozen 250W MOSFETs to spread the heat and 5W 0.1 ohm balance resistors between each source and negative rail might work for clamping surges to about 18V. (15V zener + 10A x 0.1 ohm + 2V of gate drive for logic-compatible FETs = 18V) Since the name of the game is slowing down the voltage spike so the regulator can react before voltage gets out of hand, a 500 000uF 25V capacitor bank could also do the trick.
@apollo8352 Жыл бұрын
Great video.... having the starter battery permanently connected to the alternator and hooking the lithium in parallel through a battery isolator solves the high volt issue, then with a long 10mm2 battery cable about 10 m long going to the lithium house battery gives enough resistance to limit charging current so the alternator does not run to long at full amps...which is what I did on my RV I love the vee belt comment as it was also known as a wedge belt, noisy friction stuff. I worry that the thermal switch solution may not be so good due to the inductive reactance of the field causing back emf high volts causing the thermal switch a problems..
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
Good point on the magnetic collapse and the switch. Could add a flyback diode to the switch to give a path. I should have thought of that.
@larrydugan1441 Жыл бұрын
Excellent video Clark. Really informative. Thanks
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
Nice of you to say Larry
@user-qm5sp7bb6u 11 ай бұрын
Wow - so interesting to see how much knowledge you have on this topic. Thanks for the vid. I read all the comments and have simple question: We have a wake boat with your typical 90A alternator and a single lead acid battery that runs everything. I just purchased a Blue Sea Systems 7650 Add-A-Battery Kit ($125 on AMZN), which seems to be very highly regarded. I had planned to buy a 100AH LIFEPO4 (probably CHINS - $300) to use as a house battery to power the upgraded speakers and amp we just added so as not to run starter battery down when anchored and cranking music. My rationale being that the LIFEPO4 would be ok with getting run down, would last longer, etc. Having come across your video, I now know that the very low internal resistance on the CHINS will crush my alternator when I start the engine and the Blue Sea switches to allow the alternator to charge the house battery. Adding $380 for a Bank Manager is not worth it for my needs. Should I just forget about LIFEPO4 and get a marine battery, or maybe just charge the CHINS with a typical battery charger (one with a Lithium setting) when back in the slip and plugged in to shore power? My Battery Tender brand charger is 4.5 A and has a LIFEPO4 setting. I know it would take forever, but don't care. Thanks for any advice
@EmilyAndClark 11 ай бұрын
Lots of battery chargers nowadays have Li modes. That's marketing, they don't charge li as it should be charged. But I bet with the project you are planning you could be fine with the li dying in 3-5 years. There are a lot of right answers in life. I'd bet that your alternator wouldn't overheat. Id try it and see how it works. Give it access to nice cooling air and small stock alternators usually run cool enough in my experience. I suggest you watch my early videos on hybrid battery systems before I developed the BankManager. It explains the method of doing it safely. I don't think the add a battery is a good safe way to add Li. One should not allow li and lead batteries to connect at different charge states.
@user-qm5sp7bb6u 11 ай бұрын
@@EmilyAndClark Thanks for the reply. Unless I have it wrong (totally possible) the Blue Sea never connects both batteries to the charging system at the same time. It's always one or the other. The only way to have both connect is to manually override to allow both batts to be used to start the engine if starter battery too weak. In that case, it would be switched back to normal after starting. I will check out earlier vids - thanks again for sharing knowledge. Super dumb question. If not Li, will any lead battery work as house battery in my application - or does not need to be a Marine one?
@EmilyAndClark 11 ай бұрын
Well exactly so you discharge your starter battery and ask the blue sea to do its thing. Now your Li is dump charging into your lead AND trying to start your engine at the same time. Ouch! What you want is a deep cycle battery with thick plates to handle multiple deep discharges. Forget marine. It means nothing but wing nuts on the terminals and marketers trying to turn a sticker into money.
@reginaldpotts2037 10 ай бұрын
Greetings from Portugal, Europe. Not sure why your video appeared in my YT feed but nevertheless, information greatly appreciated. Thank you.
@EmilyAndClark 10 ай бұрын
I hope you like our other offerings
@CampPrevost Жыл бұрын
I use the Sterling Alternator Protection device $80 bucks specifically made for an alternator dump.
@brettschacher8644 Жыл бұрын
Referring to diode failures, back years ago, I was having issues with cheap reman. alts. I found the issue was cheap diode bridges installed in the reman's. I found a source for plasma bonded diode bridges which fully eliminated the future failure issues. The cheap bridges were soldered diodes which we all know has a low melting point. The diodes were simply falling out of the alt on the road as I drove along. Now not all alts are constructed so the diodes can simply fall out of the cases, such as late model Fords or many others. Not that long ago, I was working on restoring a Ford 7.3L powered PU which I had installed a reman alt. One day I was working on something else and sparks just lit up the inside of that reman alt. It was on account of a diode bouncing around inside the case which in the end pretty much destroyed that unit. This is the second vid I've watched today from Clark and they were both educational. I've been working on engines in boats and autos most of my life and have learned something even today after over 40 years of mechanic work. Of course very little experience with LiFePo4 batteries in cars has been the case. I'm really liking the hybrid battery concept now.
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
Thanks Brett. Hope you choose to subscribe and continue to enjoy our stuff
@lkeil84 Жыл бұрын
Clark, loved the video. I have a very challenging problem though. My boat has 2 engines and 2 separate banks. Both banks can be charged by either alternator through a 2 alternator, 2 battery isolator. This is great when smaller similar batteries are used. My case involves a house battery bank (starboard) of lithium rated at 700 amp hours with 6 batteries in parallel. It is very unlikely that all 6 batteries would shut off, especially since the alternator really only wants to stop charging at about 14.2 volts. Since it goes through the isolator, a voltage sense wire is needed to the alternator due to about a 0.7 volt drop through the diodes in the isolator. This is one of my problems as the non house side with lead gets fully charged rather quickly essentially shutting down that alternator and now it contributes nothing through the isolator. This leaves the other house alternator doing the work to charge a 700 amp lithium battery. As you noted about alternator speed, I ussualy run 900-1100 rpm and air flow is probably not sufficient to cool this alternator resulting in a melted brush cage in my last alternator. My thought was to use a dc-dc charger from the Port Engine battery charging the Starboard engine that has the house batteries. The charger failed within about 10 hours running though. This also puts a constant 75 amp load on the port alternator at this low rpm. I am at a loss on how to get these 2 alternators to combine their strength to charge the lithium bank and have some sort of heat regulation without the 2 battery banks connected. This system was done for safety so if the house battery is depleted to a point that it cannot start the Starboard engine, then the port engine and generator battery are isolated and still full to get the generator with charger running as well as the port engine. This would charge the Starboard engine battery in short order to facilitate a start. There must be way to accomplish this without spending thousands of dollars on larger externally regulated alternators along with who knows how many other components. The temp switch may be a partial solution as I think if the voltage sense wire is disconnected, this would shut down the output and at least protect that one alternator from frying again. Getting the other alternator involved would be a bonus. Any thought by you or anyone else out there?
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
Wow there is a lot going on here. I'm afraid your question deserves more time and analysis than I can give here. If you would like to drill into this design I'm confident we can come up with an inexpensive system to do what you want but it will take back and forth to really drill down to the requirements. Take a look at our Patreon "Dream Believers" tier. If that looks good to you, its the right place for this level of question. For short advice. I'd start by considering loosing the isolators and using a pair of these in stead kzfaq.info/get/bejne/p8mboNVnss21c6c.html They are cheap, and cause no voltage drop. Diodes were a great solution to this issue in the 70s but time has marched on.
@patrickfitzoot Жыл бұрын
U need to change your alt(or engine/or both) pulley so your low rpm spins the alternator enough not to overheat
@fsoiberg Жыл бұрын
Great info, thank you. I have a Hi-bred Bp Chassis + LiFeP04 House. Morning is the high load 35A if the load goes over 35A the current to the LiFeP04 is chopped (not by the BMS). I don't know what is cutting the power. Any suggestion? 1993 Commons Diesel powered Motor-home. Have you looked into Starlink "Flat Mount"? I have, Looks Great. If you buy a Land Based, it can be Up and Down graded for Marine Service.
@mickwolf1077 8 ай бұрын
I have a few more ideas. You can have a voltage sensitive relay that connects your lithium to your lead starting battery only when your alternator is charging the disconnects when lead battery voltage drops to its resting state. It won't matter if your lithium battery disconnects because your lead battery is still connected. You can also upgrade the BMS in your lithium battery, my JK BMS turns off charging when battery is full but still allows discharge so there should be a voltage there for your alternator to see and not shoot up in voltage, that's what happens with my solar inverter. You can also maybe have a decent capacitor in parallel with your battery to hold a voltage in case the BMS shuts off while the alternator is charging, in theory the alternator will sense the voltage in the capacitor and think its a fully charged battery. You can also remove the regulator and diode assembly in the alternator and manually power the rotor field with your ignition or a switch and connect the 3 phase stator to a 3 phase bridge rectifier to get your high voltage dc and with a suitably rated capacitor to filter the DC then connect the high voltage dc to a solar regulators pv input to simulate solar panels. The charge controller will then handle all the charging to the lithium battery. I will be trying this to make use of a fried diesel inverter generator. Great info about the overheating and thermal switch mod too.
@detlefdaniel6106 Жыл бұрын
I'm usually not commenting on you tube clips, but i think i can add some useful info. For those who have newer boats with 2014+ Yanmar YM.. engines, they are all equipped with 125A 12V Valeo alternators, which have internal regulators - simple (dumb) voltage regulators. The video suggests to add thermal switch in the field current path to prevent overheating the alternator when LiFePO4 is used. Indeed, there is a Yanmar Tech bulletin out (YMTQTB17-007), which recommends to limit the charging current to 100A. This will limit the alt temp to 200 deg C, which seems high, but apparently is OK for Yanmar. Now, a thermal switch can accomplish this, but it does not address the voltage spike problem. Here is why. I'm assuming a typical scenario with lead acid starter and LiFePO4 house battery bank, both separated by a battery isolator. The LiFePO4 batteries typically use a battery monitoring circuit (BMC), which will shut off when a single cell (there are 4) reaches its max voltage. This shutoff happens instantly with severely unbalanced cells. The lead acid battery starter battery is normally fully recharged after a few minutes and therefore won't act much as a buffer raising the charge voltage above the 14.4V limit. The only way to remedy this is a controlled ramp down of the charging current so that the regulator can follow. So far i haven't found any specs for ramp down of BMCs, maybe someone can enlighten me.
@brownnoise357 Жыл бұрын
very good insights for people, thank you Clark. 👍 Personally my next boatbis likely to need refurbishing and upgrades, along with replacements, Full wiring design check, Network Wiring, Lightning protection isolation and Bonding, New instruments (replacement originals that work, kept as spares for other boaters, and expensive but worth it Alternator, serpentine belts, external Regulator, standing rigging, running rigging, New Sails, and existing checked, valeted, and kept as a backup suit of Sails if good enough. That kind of thing. I'm still a bit wary of Lithium, after communicating with a Chinese Manufacturer. Like Lead, Lithium Hates being discharged below 50% Capacity, and you lose recharge cycles each time if you do it for longer life, they don't appear to like being charged over 85% apparently, so useful non damaging capacity appears to be between 85% and 50% , so a tual useable capacity would be 35% .? Now Lead Loves being charged to 100% right? So bon damaging capacity therefore looks to actually be 50% right, plus Lead batteries are easily and fully recyclable? Plus the extra weight, can help put displacement down low where it is useful. A badly treated AGM Battery can last as little as 18 months, but we'll looked after, 10 years. How long do badly treated Lifepo4 Batteries last ? What is their Maximum Life ? Information on those factors, are highly noticeable by their absence aren't they ? So I may go with deep Discharge Dual Purpose AGM, and Never Deep Discharge them (even with Lithium, deep Discharging Damages them. Any experience with Carbon Lead Clark ? They look interesting. As an aside, Offgrid on my Smallholding, I got 15 years outbof a bank of heavy Duty Cheap Agricultural Tractor Batteries, and only lost them thanks to Not forecasted extreme cold down to minus 45 degrees C cracking their cases. Never discharged below 50% and usually a couple of volts higher than that. I won't have "Normal" Lead acid Batteries on a boat though, must be sealed. Best Wishes. . Bob 👍
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
Hi Bob, Carbon lead is very interesting and people I respect are having good luck with them. I haven't owned a set myself. I think you might want to broaden your research into LiFePO4. I think you will find evidence that a lot of your ideas about life and discharge are not exactly right. It's still early days for this technology but it seems to me that Lifepo4 can be fully charged as long as your charger can accurately know where 100% is. That can't be done with voltage alone so basically only my BankManager can do this safely. They seem OK with more than 50% discharge. In fact they should be stored for the long term at 50% charge. I set my lower limit to 20% so I get a working spread of 80% of rated.
@brownnoise357 Жыл бұрын
@@EmilyAndClark Good points Clark, Lifepo4 is indeed a Bit different, to Lithium, but that 85% charge maximises the service life of mobile phone batteries and Tablet batteries may point to it pointing that way for Lifepo4 as well. It was a pretty good Chinese Lifepo4 Batteries Manufacturer (pretty sure looking to sponsor me with a Housebank Set, to help them determine what the maximum useful service life could be if properly treated ) who was quite firm about the number of Recharge Cycles being harmed badly, if discharged below 50% Capacity, if done often. I suspect there could well be a way of treating Lifepo4 batteries, to get a useful service life of 20 plus years tbh. Though Tester Will Prose has said that, or at least strongly hinted, that Lifepo4 batteries will self destruct internally, a long before Cycle life can be reached. Now That I find worrying worrying enough, to seriously consider whether even a free Housebank set is really worth the bother of testing, and is certainly serious food for thought. Thanks for the thoughtful response Clark, Best Wishes. Bob (who does love testing stuff ) 👍⛵️✨️✨️✨️✨️✨️
@brownnoise357 Жыл бұрын
@@EmilyAndClark PS Me again Clark. I think I'm going to let others find out about Lifepo4 possible service Life, and as 10 years for AGM properly treated is now solidly established, I think a Carbon Lead Housebank with AGM e gine, bowthruster, and Windlass batteries as a setup for long term testing, will probably be the route I go , thinking about it. Thanks again. Bob. 👍 the edit was because the message decided to post itself before completion, so added the change of direction for me as well . 🤣
@braithmiller Жыл бұрын
Carbon lead Firefly make lithium look cheap.
@brownnoise357 Жыл бұрын
@@braithmiller eta dropped letters from words. Luckily they aren't the only manufacturers, and Carbon Lead can be cheaper by a fair bit than Lifepo4 when on offer. AGM too, for a solid 10 year service life if treated properly, such as Never Deep Discharging any Deep Discharge Battery for starters, no matter the chemistry of its construction. You just need to develop an appropriate Battery Bank size, with a good routine for managing it. One Boat Owner, no names, no pack drill, an engineer ffs, absolutely Trashed his new AGM Batteries inside 18 months, and replaced them with very expensive Lifepo4 batteries. Did he change his management regime ? Nope, so bets may be taken on how long efore he trashes those Lifepo4 batteries. I would put money on them not lasting very long at all, and likely less than 5 years. Expensive lessons should be the best Education, Right ? Should have learned from his AGM bank that he wasn't doing things right imho, a nice guy, and he will probably figure it out in the end. 🤔
@dspencer1983 11 ай бұрын
i love your videos as a new sailor the are so valuable thanks
@fsj197811 Жыл бұрын
Well done, thanks for sharing.
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
You're welcome
@coachgeo Жыл бұрын
THANKS for putting this video together.
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
You're very welcome
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
Hope you enjoy our other videos as well
@coachgeo Жыл бұрын
@@EmilyAndClark been thru them numerous time and purchased (but not installed yet) a BBM+
@jjjoooojjj 10 ай бұрын
Thank you Clark for this excellent episode. I have one question though. What if I have starting battery Lithium as well. Please let me know..
@EmilyAndClark 10 ай бұрын
I don't recommend that. The major reason I developed the BankManager approach to a hybrid battery system was to use each battery chemistry to its strongest advantages. With all lithium you loose the passive alternator protection and honestly the cheap easily replaceable starter battery (I bet that li starter cost a mint!) As well as a reliable battery system to fall back on. We went into all that pretty deeply in the document the ISO asked us to write docs.google.com/document/d/1a5M0V9JjaMezCZjJwrGv0IhCekAy-r_X6PPKs1YG8dY/edit?usp=sharing If I were you I'd use a lead starter battery. Something like this. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/jtZmptacma3ZpZc.html
@adamd5013 Жыл бұрын
Does a Ballard external regulator protect the batter from BMS shutdown or you would still want a hybrid or secondary battery? Thanks great video
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
You would need the second battery.
@roncarcamo5785 10 ай бұрын
Question: if you are running Lithium for the house and Lead for the engine that are connected to a magneto (modern outboard engine) do the overheating concerns still apply? Given the continuous running nature of a Magneto do we just let the BMS do it’s job to regulate amp charging of the Lithium batteries ? Or do we still need a bank manager or dc-to-dc charger?
@EmilyAndClark 10 ай бұрын
You still want the BankManager as the voltage regulator in the outboard wouldn't treat the li kindly. I just don't have any experience with what happens when you remove a battery from a modern outboard so the diode protection may be unnecessary but the li charge controlled is very important.
@retiredguyadventures6211 8 ай бұрын
Great video! I am new to lithium batteries. I had an AGM battery in my cargo trailer hooked up to the alternator from my tow vehicle so it would charge along with the tow vehicle's battery while driving. I recently bought a LiFePO4 100 AH battery for the cargo trailer because I want to put a solar charger on it, and it has a 100 amp BMS rating. Basically I had the cargo trailer AGM battery in parallel with the tow vehicle's lead acid battery for charging off the tow vehicle's alternator when driving. I have a couple of questions. #1 - Can I even put a LiFePO4 battery in parallel with a lead acid battery and charge off an alternator? #2 - If I can put the two batteries in parallel will the tow vehicle battery act as a shunt to prevent the voltage spike when the LiFePo4 BMS shuts off?
@EmilyAndClark 8 ай бұрын
I have several videos on this topic . You can do it manually but it's best to use my BankManager if you want the best life from your batteries. I suggest you watch through my videos on the topic. Check out playlists.
@allmomomosthomebus3895 Жыл бұрын
Really good video Clark!
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
Thanks Larry
@mundall1271 3 ай бұрын
Good advice thank you.
@Dansk55 6 ай бұрын
Very informative. I bought a NOCO lithium battery for my motorcycle. Is this scenario possible? What remedies can I use if that's the case? BZY91C18 diode?
@EmilyAndClark 6 ай бұрын
I dropped a little Li into my bike years ago. My bike has a 1.7 liter engine and the lead batteries just didn't last long or reliably crank it over. I've had no problems but I certainly wouldn't need 15 years out of it to feel I got my money's worth. Honestly I'm not even sure it's a LiFePO4. So what I'm saying is those are different little beasts. They live hard and I bet they will die young but in the scheme of things don't cost much. The banks of li I'm referring to in my videos cost a lot more and, in the boat case, are taken to places where replacement is nearly impossible. They have to be reliable.
@deancorkins Жыл бұрын
Clark, do you consider the argofet as a reliable protection for lithium when coupled to FLA?
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
Absolutely not.
@Lolo7674 8 ай бұрын
Hi, great video and great explanations. But what about using a thermal switch that would activate an extra external fan when the alt. temperature gets to 100 or 110 degrees ? Nice work.
@EmilyAndClark 8 ай бұрын
I really wish I had talked about ventilation more in this video.
@philipbown3453 Жыл бұрын
Hi Clark I’m just watching one of your videos and you mentioned fitting a Lithium battery into a standard AGM battery Box , I have a Projecta power hub Battery box which has a 300 W inverter built in , and built in BMS , ot says a lithium battery can not be installed, is there a way round this as I like the Box , Thanks Clark Keep the great Videos coming 👍
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
It boils down to how the li is charged. And I assume your current device doesn't have a BMS but a charge controller. BMS is a li thing. I'll likely do that video eventually. If you are good at reading between the lines take a look at this. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/pcqYqKiS2qfafIk.html You will see me charging that Redodo with my BankManager as a charge controller. I assume you either charge this "box" or use it. This can be done. But it would be DIY
@kb9knd 9 ай бұрын
I enjoyed this video. The idea I had when you were talking about using the lead battery to protect the alternator when the lithium battery opens it’s circuit and stops charging was, would one of those super sized capacitors used in audio amp installation work in place of the lead battery? The capacitors I’m talking about are over 1 farad and some even have digital voltage displays built in. Capacitors life generally lasts longer than lead batteries. Just a thought. Thanks for the interesting video. This is the first time I’ve seen your channel.
@EmilyAndClark 9 ай бұрын
Technically it would solve the problem nicely. But,, it creates so many problems of its own. It's hard to control current with one of these. Its charge acceptance ability is scary.
@johnmeyer7655 Жыл бұрын
I have motorhome with lead starting batteries and lithium house batteries. When the engine is running, the Alternator charges both systems. This means the lead batteries are there when the lithiums turn off at full charge, and the Alternator is protected from damage. When the ignition is turned off, the lead batteries are completely isolated, they will not charge with shore power or solar panels. But there is also no power draw, so they can sit idle for weeks at a time. When the ignition is turned off, the 2 battery banks are cemetery isolated.
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
An issue you should consider is with the engine running your Li is being charged like lead (not good) and then floated at voltage over 13.48 (really not good). Are you considering a change?
@tim1299 Жыл бұрын
@@EmilyAndClark I thought you were giving me a green light for my motor home to have a lithium house battery. Now you are talking contrary with this response. I'm left confused once again.?? So I still won't buy a lithium battery for the house side of the motor home. And I thought lithium was to be charged at 14.4 to 14.6 volts to 100%. state of charge 13.6 volts. If I am charging and floating like a lead acid battery, how would the lithium battery ever get to full charge to shut down the BMT and destroy the alternator if no lead acid battery were present?
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
That was in a very old video. I have learned a lot since then. That's why I developed the BankManager
@tim1299 Жыл бұрын
@@EmilyAndClark It was posted two months ago. OLD?? remove this video!
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
What video are you referring to?
@tylerm1491 4 ай бұрын
If I have my lead acid starter battery connected to the alternator and completely separate from the lithium house bank and solar panels, is there any disadvantage to this other than being unable to charge the house bank with the alternator or use the starter battery as a backup house battery? If I go with this setup, what typebof syarter battery would you recommend? I understand that your videos and other resources should make this all clear on their own, but it's a lot to take in. Thanks!
@EmilyAndClark 4 ай бұрын
Not anyway near as much work as making them was for me Put the effort in. If not on my channel elsewhere. And once you understand the situation you will find you want a BankManager. It's the only way to do it all right. But you have to learn for yourself or just buy my product out of blind trust.
@DigBipper188 Жыл бұрын
One other thing that could really help with thermal regulation would be to opt for a compatible liquid cooled alternator. This should remove some of the RPM dependence to your charging system as there will always be a good constant flow of coolant through the alternator.
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
I haven't seen a lot of these.
@CurtisDrew1 Жыл бұрын
Would this battery manager work for my Land Yatch RV as well? I'm rebuilding a 37' Fleetwood Limited Edition. SO far I've repowered it from gas to diesel. This gives me 600 HP and a 10 speed automatic transmission. My plan is to install between 800 to 1200 watts of solar on it and replace the house batteries with- 2 200 amp litium batteries. I will keep the lead acid cranking battery for starting. I replaced the 60 amp alternator with a 240 amp alternator so it can run both AC's while driving on the road. Thinking of converting to mini split air conditioner with dual cassette roof cooling units on the one base outside unit. Since my RV will be operated much like you folks in the boating world, I'm thinking I might need a way to manage my litihium batteries charging with my dc alternator. Most of this coach is being severly upgraded with lots of electronics that I would really hate to burn up. As my Daddy iuse to say, " It's only money, I'll make more". ps: I'm upgrading and remodeling my old coach because (1) it's been paid for for decades, and (2) because it has better aero dynamics than any new Class A Coach out there. And lastly, I'm a Tim Taylor kind of guy. It's one of my hobbies...
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
Well I'll have to take the little life jackets off the electrons.... Sure it works on RVs. We have them in houses as well. Emily and I just finished a land trip through the Rockies. TINY RV/ROAD TRIP: kzfaq.info/sun/PLsT7_jPsZM5oww7H4lhk1OxyU8NuWoQal Watch the last two videos in particular, you might like the AC I have. I'm currently working with an off-road RV outfitter to customize this so it plays nice with modern truck computers that are too smart for their own good. Be glad you don't have that problem. Yes this will make your life better.
@cliffweinan3907 8 ай бұрын
Good point about loss of battery load killing alternator, especially on diesel with no engine electical load. How about simply keeping the alternator / regulator always lightly loaded with a couple of engine comparment light bulbs?
@MikeSantis Жыл бұрын
Fantastic. Thank you Clark. You explain things in a way for us that don't know much about this stuff so we can understand.
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
Thanks Mike
@VaultBoi101 Ай бұрын
I know you are talking about a boat system what about 12v lithium car battery I've seen these as drop in replacement for car batteries and they come with built in car jumper feature in case the end user accidently drained the battery by leaving on some kind of accessory; headlights for an example, it could jump it's self. I know it's not a boat set up but how much different could a marketed car battery and alternator be from what's used in a boat other than voltage and amps ? I'm just asking because I thinking about getting one
@EmilyAndClark Ай бұрын
There are exceptions but generally "drop in replacements" aren't really. Most aren't up to starting a car engine.
@kristiqntachev7139 2 ай бұрын
Hey there! Do you think that having a Smart BMS where you could control the current flowing out of the battery can save a lot of hustle ? Since i have limited my Smart BMS to only be able to charge with 35 Amps so there is no draw which exceeds these amperages. I am currently having a hybrid 2 x lead acid 100ah + lifepo4 100Ah and i am planning to change the cells to 280 Ah Eve which will consume a lot of current if i let it too. Great videos i am a big fan from many years :) Cheers from Bulgaria
@EmilyAndClark 2 ай бұрын
No removing all battery loads from a spinning alternator is never a good thing. And I'm not sure what you mean by a smart BMS able to limit current. If it's doing it by signaling the charge controller, fine. But itlf it's doing it itself by adding resistance I can say I like that idea much. But there are a lot of "right" answers in this world. It's just a matter of finding the one that works for you.
@Noisycowonline 2 ай бұрын
That you Mr Data, very helpful.
@TurgutKalfaoglu 10 ай бұрын
Very interesting -- thanks! Btw, can't you have your lithiums and your lead acids connected in parallel? That way even if the lithium disconnects, you still have your lead acid connected?
@EmilyAndClark 10 ай бұрын
Yes that's exactly how the BankManager is configured. And the BankManager takes care of the different charging requirements of the lithium bank
@BadenBadenSwitzerBaden Жыл бұрын
I like the concept of the BankManager. Could it be used in conjunction with something like a SBMS0 plus a DSSR20 that could switch the load from LiFePO4 to something like a hot water heater or electrical in-floor heating? It seems like a smarter BMS that switches _where_ the current goes might also save the alternator, no?
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
I'm not really familiar with that BMS but I have a friend here in the bay who uses a BankManager and dumps extra solar electrical energy into hot water. I'll ask him what he does. Was simple and done with on hand devices. I seem to remember he takes the signal from the solar controller to a relay?? I'll ask
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
From my friend "I just have it hooked up to the dump load of that pwm controller. Turns on at 14v and off at 13.4"
@BadenBadenSwitzerBaden Жыл бұрын
@@EmilyAndClark Thank you (and your friend) for the quick and insightful response. So much movement in this space at the moment. Exciting times!
@tiny3669 Жыл бұрын
I run a dual alternator set up and have my battery bank on a 375 amp alternator with a external adjustable voltage regulator. Works great.
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
I don't understand. Alternator hooked to battery works. Of course it does.
@jimjones7821 Жыл бұрын
@@EmilyAndClark Clark, I think he is just saying that he has a system setup as he notes and it is working out really well - thats all. I dont think he was posing any sort of question at you.
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
Thanks, after reading and answering hundreds of questions I guess everything starts looking like a question.
@grakkerful Жыл бұрын
Well, I picked up some thermal switches. Looking forward to the next video so I can learn what to do with it.
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
Someone suggested a potential problem with this. He might be right. Adding a flyback diode might help protect the switch for longer life. I'll talk about it in the description of the next video. Too late to film anything.
@grakkerful Жыл бұрын
@@EmilyAndClark I'm looking forward to it. I recently upgraded to 200Ah of Lithium (27' sailboat) and I've been a little worried about how the rest of the system.
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
I just updated the description of this video to talk about it. I basically said check wikki. What I really should have talked about in the video was venting the engine room. I think I'll add that to the description now.
@sailingrumrunner Жыл бұрын
I have a Yanmar 56hp diesel which I think has an 80amp alternator. My starter battery is two 6V deep cycles in series for 12V. I have a victron 18amp DC/DC converter fed from alternator to two 12V 206ahr SOK LiFePO4 batteries. I like the idea of the thermal switch and having spare diodes on board. Any advice or critique here? BTW, really love the way you explain things. I am a retired chemist and typically chemists and engineers don't see eye to eye. My eyes , and ears, are wide open. Thanks Captain Qwiksword SV Gratitude Cocoa Fl.
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
Thanks. I'll assume your request for discussion is for others as I'm on record. Also glad you read about the flyback diode.
@mottavator Жыл бұрын
I just found your channel. I assume your device will apply to an RV system? I have a dual alternator system as this vehicle was originally an ambulance. I have removed the rear batteries and now have the original dual battery system for the diesel under the hood. I have upgraded one of the alternators and plan on using the other alternator exclusively for my "House" batteries which are lithium. As I understand from your video, If I install a lead acid battery as an intermediate to the lithium batteries and install the Bank Manager to regulate the alternator it should help my second alternator live to charge the lithium battery bank along with 1200 watts of solar. Thank you for this video which has come up on my youTube home page!
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
Yes it will work fine in an RV. In fact we just did a 3 month RV trip through the rocky mountains. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/lbNggsxyzpvWdYE.html
@meseahunt Ай бұрын
Awesome information thank you 🤠
@EmilyAndClark Ай бұрын
You are very welcome
@meseahunt Ай бұрын
@@EmilyAndClark this content has me now thinking about the relationship of an automotive alternator while connected to an RV with a lithium battery?
@jemdost6724 6 ай бұрын
Such an excellent video. I'm convinced you can confirm if my expensive way of keeping my alternator in check will work for my upcoming project. Mind you I'm installing these on a yamaha jetboat (because I have a very demanding audio system) So I bought an Epoch lithium battery 12v460Ah claims the following statement on the website: " CANBUS Communication allows BMS to communicate directly with Victron OS" I also bought a Balmar XT 250 alternator. I will be buying the all new Arco Zeus external regulator (it is a canbus enabled regulator similar to the wakespeed WS500) I will also buy a victron cerbo GX. I'm hoping the Epoch batteries internal BMS will connect to the Cerbo GX to be able to enable DVCC and then from the Cerbo GX to the Zeus regulator which then will control the Balmar alternator to shut off when my lithium gets full and stops accepting charge or out of balance etc any time it shuts downs. All concept and I already bought most of the expensive parts but really would appreciate if you would look into these specific products. I have a good feeling you will be familiar with the individual items I have listed and will have a stronger opinion on if they will be able to communicate in the way I'm hoping. Looking forward to your reply and thanks for the videos, cheers!
@EmilyAndClark 6 ай бұрын
No I haven't put that exact system together as I solve this a different (better) way with my BankManager. It can't fail and actually charges your Li correctly unlike these devices. It's also much cheaper. I suggest you ask this question to the guys buying from.
@jemdost6724 6 ай бұрын
I see so what happens if the Lithium BMS shuts down unexpectedly, does the starter Lead Acid Battery or AGM battery absorb the extra current so it doesn't damage the alternator plus all the other electronics?@@EmilyAndClark
@EmilyAndClark 6 ай бұрын
Yes exactly. And since my hybrid battery manager always keeps the lead on line, it's always there to absorb the energy. Nothing can fail.
@jemdost6724 6 ай бұрын
@@EmilyAndClark amazing I’ll watch your bank manger video first chance I get to learn more
@EmilyAndClark 6 ай бұрын
This might also prove helpful. www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
@GoCoyote 7 ай бұрын
Electrician here: The voltage spike from open circuiting a large 12 volt alternator under max load can exceed 1k volts. This is why a TVSP device will help protect the alternator and all of the electronics in such events if you have a battery disconnect switch of any sort, including the BMS. If not using a lead acid battery in parallel, I would go with an adjustable external regulator that will connect to the BMS of the battery to regulate both current and voltage to provide optimal charging within the required range of the lithium battery. One can even set the output voltage of the alternator regulator slightly below that of the PV array charge controller settings so that the array will be prioritized over the alternator, plus the output of the alternator can be controlled to allow for de-rating if overheating is occurring. I believe that there are now can-bus controlled alternator regulators that will integrate with the entire system. Those lithium iron batteries are a big investment, and one will want to get the longest life out of them. The heat created by the alternator is a function of the winding resistance, the power output/field strength, the alternators cooling fan, and the temperature and volume of airflow in the engine compartment. The reason we use alternators over generators is that they have the ability to provide a fairly large output even at low RPMs by increasing the strength of the field windings, creating more current flow in the windings, thus more heat while the alternator fan and the engine fan are operating at low levels, thus causing more heat buildup under slow RPMs. Normally this is not an issue in running basic electronics and keeping the starter battery topped off, as the alternator will just be idling well under its rated maximum output. But add a load like a lithium battery capable of keeping the alternator at max output continuously, and that can really stress the alternator. One can help overcome this by using the above mentioned regulator, and by also using electrically operated and thermostatically controlled fans to cool the engine compartment, along with de-rating a larger alternator. A 100Amp alternator will have 1/2 the winding resistance of a 50Amp alternator, and will run much cooler when outputting 50Amps than the 50Amp alternator running at its maximum output.
@svestancia Жыл бұрын
I’ve always asked myself if a blackout was possible when BMS disconnects.. wasn’t sure if it only disconnected from incoming power or disconnected the whole thing.. now is clear.. doesn’t sound good to electronics and a little annoying..
@InspiredByBrad Ай бұрын
Our RV (Pleasure-Way) uses the factory Mercedes Sprinter 200 amp alternator connected directly to 2 100AH Lithium batteries via a timed switched solenoid. The amps range between 90 and 130. It seems to function well.
@EmilyAndClark Ай бұрын
Glad for you. Have you ever had the BMS disconnect?
@tracker001 8 ай бұрын
Sailing Yaba , needs to see this !
@SolarBuck 8 ай бұрын
any plans to do 48V. i have a NiFe battery comprised of 36 600ah cells i had to put this in a shed do to hydrogen off gassing. i interested in expanding with Lithium LiFePo4 but have been looking for a way to get them to play nice. this looks promising but i could only find 36V version
@EmilyAndClark 8 ай бұрын
The BankManager does 12, 24, 36, and 48v
@AN-kg4ei 3 ай бұрын
I just picked up 2 100A Eco worthy lithium batts and likely won't be long before wanting a BM regulator from you Clark! In the meantime I might do a little DC to DC charging experimentation.
@EmilyAndClark 3 ай бұрын
Careful with overcharging if you charge slowly I'd set the charge limit to something like 13.8v and have it float to 13.3 right away after it hits 13.8v
@JayRSwan 7 ай бұрын
If you confirm the voltage is close when you link them, could you just have a lead bat in parallel with the lifep04 when the engine is running and then disconnect the lead after while sitting, With like a bank selector switch?
@EmilyAndClark 7 ай бұрын
I did a video on this a couple of years ago before I developed the BankManager. That is still a good guideline for doing it manually. The BankManager, besides automating the process, is really accurate in knowing when the lithium just reaches full charge. The idea is you get the longest life and best capacity by charging to that sweet spot. But if you want to do it manually and charge conservatively that video is your best start.
@malcolmdavid722 Ай бұрын
I just ordered 2x 280Ah LiFePo4 from eco worthy with 250A bms and your YT video caught my attention !!. 😮 Ohh ? However they will be charged by a Victron multiplus 12/3000 and a dcdc charger from the Engine battery which is in parallel with more 2 lead acid on the bow thruster / windlass with long HD cables. Do I still need to be worried ? Any thoughts greatly appreciated
@EmilyAndClark Ай бұрын
Yes you should still be worried. Charging Li to a voltage shortens its life. The BankManager is the only device out there that charges li right. I suggest you read Conrad's article linked to the bottom of this www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
@gigioecu 4 ай бұрын
So I want to deck out my electric system in my Catalina 22. The goal is to do the Texas 200 comfortably. But is ac, inverter and lithium to much for such a small boat such as mine?
@EmilyAndClark 4 ай бұрын
Sailing is a hobby. Do what makes you happy!
@josephcrawley3095 Жыл бұрын
Is it possible to set an external field regulator so that the batteries never fully charge off the alternator? Doing this to avoid BMS shutdown and would rely on solar to top em off. Also is it possible to start a smallish engine off lithium with a 260 amp BMS max output? Perhaps using decompression lever?
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
Alternator wise Li isn't like lead. It doesn't show charge state by voltage. You can overcharge a 12v LiFePO4 pack at any voltage over 13.48v given enough time. That is why we don't float Li and why a BankManager is needed to charge li without the worry of low current overcharge. So setting the voltage of an alternator regulator low won't do what you hope. Engine starting wise You would need to check the draw of your starter. 260 amps at 13v is quite a bit of power and BMSs pass a bit more than their rating until they get hot. So.... Maybe.
@josephcrawley3095 Жыл бұрын
@@EmilyAndClark thanks for the response and clearing some of the murky fog that envelops lithium batteries.
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
Yes they look so similar but are really quite different.
@gamedoutgamer Жыл бұрын
Thanks for the video. What about CAN-aware alternators that are designed for charging lithium batteries?
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
I have seen a lot of gear that says it is for charging li. But I've found flaws in all of it except for constant current chargers that plug into the wall and only charge li that is not in service. Well except for the BankManager. I of course haven't seen every offering, no one has. But one gets tired of looking. But I just realized you are likely talking about alternator regulators that shut down on a signal from the li BMS. Sure that works. I mention it in the video. Works but expensive.
@gamedoutgamer Жыл бұрын
@@EmilyAndClark Thanks for your reply! Here is a video by The Fit RV that goes over many details about the CAN alternators - kzfaq.info/get/bejne/qbmJosxoxNqaZGQ.html
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
I watched the video. Thanks. I can't tell what logic the BMS is using to request a charge but if it's correct (that's not a given) this should work fine. My issue with this approach is you need to use batteries with a special BMS (read extra expensive) and change all your charge controllers to canbus units (also extra expensive). That's all of them. Solar, alternator, mains chargers, wind... I designed my system to work with any regulators that work for lead. And you can spend your money on more Lifepo4 cells. and of course I trust my devices ability to know when the li under its control is exactly fully charged. The BMS might be doing that well but let's just say it was a difficult problem to solve.
@gamedoutgamer Жыл бұрын
@@EmilyAndClark Excellent. Right it's a matter of cost difference and also being a different implementation. Thanks for watching that and giving your insights and comparing it to your solution presented here! I see you do have a truck camper as well and I watched that tour video by Emily a few weeks ago not knowing this is the same channel. Keep the spirit!!
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
I'll be doing some testing with that truck once we get back to the US next week. A overland RV company is having trouble getting modern trucks to charge external batteries. I happen to have one of these modern trucks so I'm going to hack the charging system. You wouldn't have any insights into it would you?
@craigharvey6957 7 ай бұрын
Can you clarify for me. Can I use my lead start battery with my lithium house bank to create the hybrid, or do I need to add lead to my house bank?
@EmilyAndClark 7 ай бұрын
Made a video just for you... kzfaq.info/get/bejne/jtZmptacma3ZpZc.html If you want to know more about the bank manager www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
@davidwalsh7603 Жыл бұрын
very informative thanks
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
You're welcome David
@paulfitzgerald1466 Жыл бұрын
Can you use a combining relay between a lead start battery and a lithium house battery?
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
No not safe. It can reconnect when the batteries are at different states of charge which can cause a dangerous inrush current condition. Read fire. Also you can't really charge anything correctly.
@DroneManMurphy 5 ай бұрын
4:29 would the voltage spike happen in an automobile with a lead acid battery if you disconnect the battery while the car is running? I’ve seen people do this to check to see if the alternator and after learning about lithium I’m wondering if that has been a problem over all these years?
@EmilyAndClark 5 ай бұрын
It really could but seldom does in cars because of all the many electrical loads a modern car has. These loads provide a path for the power being produced to flow through. Boats operate most of the time without an engine running so they have few constant loads.
@travellingjournalist966 7 ай бұрын
Hi just a question my boat has 2alternators 1 for the starter battery which is 45a the second is a 150a domestic bank, I have 700ah flooded lead acid bank can I just add a lithium directly to this set up or do I still need something between them
@EmilyAndClark 7 ай бұрын
Just put LiFePO4 in parallel to your house lead with this between them www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
@travellingjournalist966 7 ай бұрын
@@EmilyAndClarkhi thanks do you ship to uk please
@EmilyAndClark 7 ай бұрын
@@travellingjournalist966 we only ship to US addresses but there is a company called reship.com that a lot of people use who don't have convenient American friends.
@georgecarney3083 Жыл бұрын
Hi Clark, Rick Moore from Sophisticated Lady Explained the installation of a second 48V 5kW Balmar alternator, with individual Balmar regulators per alternator and a centre fielder to sync the alternators. The output of the alternators connect to a common buss with a feed to the 48V LiFePO4 battery system. So I don't know what happens to the alternators when the batteries get fully charged? His YT video SSL667
@funlovingJohn 4 ай бұрын
My toyota hybrid does not have an alternator, Will a lithium battery instead of the 12V lead acid battery hirt the 12V charging system in the phase converter?
@EmilyAndClark 4 ай бұрын
Your charger circuit is going to treat the LiFePO4 like lead. It will work but won't last a long time.
@tobyduncan6150 Жыл бұрын
What are your thoughts on the Sterling Power Alternator Protection Device to protect against BMS disconnects?
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
Seems unnecessary as a hybrid battery does a fine job and with the BankManager it's the only way to protect the li from low current overcharge.
@kevinc7866 7 ай бұрын
C'mon these Sterling devices ar less than $100. Your purported solutions are at least that much. @@EmilyAndClark
@matteng2332 7 ай бұрын
Always a great video
@EmilyAndClark 7 ай бұрын
Thanks Matt
@rickss69 Ай бұрын
Would the charging systems common in jet skis (PWC's) suffer the same?
@EmilyAndClark Ай бұрын
Sure. All alternators have diodes
@rickcreel3657 8 ай бұрын
Some BMW alternators are water-cooled with the cooling system coolant. You would have to make a pot to fit the alternator in with an 0-ring seal.
@martinsonneveld440 Жыл бұрын
Thanks for discussing this! But why so hard on DC-DC Converters? Yes it's another green or blue box but I installed one it works flawlesly and doesn't need a lot of attention, you can easily adjust on charging profile, set voltage, amps, duration so it can nicely work together with what you already have. No need to fiddle with alternators, easy install and not more expensive than alternator and regulator upgrades. Very easy to live with last 2 seasons, and solves both issues you rightly brought up here! While Lithium takes a charge so easy you hardly have to max out on alternator power, In parctice I rarely draw more amps than 1/4 of the rated alternator output (115A), most of the times its set to 25A.
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
I have used dc-dc chargers. Sometimes they are a good solution but usually they aren't. My issues: They are mono-directional. Can't move solar power to the start battery. They waste power (minor issue with power to heat but major issue since they can't pass much power. As you said seldom 1/4 of the power available. They don't charge li correctly. They charge to voltage not to full. See my recent video on the BankManager for a definition of low current overcharge. They are basically unnecessary. Hybrid batteries are better if managed property. But we are all captains of our own ships and should do as we wish.
@martinsonneveld440 Жыл бұрын
@@EmilyAndClark true, all choices are personal, only wanted to add my positive experience here.. to react to your points: I connected the solar power to a Blue Sea 1-2switch (after the solar charger) to choose banks manually. When not aboard it is switched to the lead acid starterbattery. The DC-DC Charger can be set to stop charging the Lithiumbattery ones Tail-current thresholds are reached, in combination with the apllied voltage (eg 14,0 Volt at the Li-battery), just like the solar charger or the shorepower charger (all monofunctional on purpose). I am least worried sofar on the efficiency of the setup, more to (losing) simplicity and how to save or enhance some sort of redundancy. I am very interested in your creative solutions and will sure look into the benefits. Many thanks for your time and efforts!
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
Which dc-dc are you using? I've only tried the renergy. Be careful with the battery combiner switch. If your lead is quite discharged li can try to send LOTS of current into it. We have seen some smoking wires during tests.
@martinsonneveld440 Жыл бұрын
@@EmilyAndClark I installed the Mastervolt MacPlus 12/12-50 2 years ago, as part of a total overhaul of the electrical system. Can also act as a stabilized (max 50A) DC-source, so if Lithium is down engine can be used as generator (for basics: nav, autopilot, lights etc, not microwave). This Blue Sea switch has deliberately no combiner function, it is in to be able to maintain control over the solar charging.
@EmilyAndClark Жыл бұрын
Thanks
@stephenburnage7687 2 ай бұрын
Would a further option be to add an invertor as the load on the alternator and to feed that into the existing smart charger? Kinda like a DC to DC convertor but employing the existing smart charger. (Note: i charge my batteries from a stand alone gen set, by feeding the smart charger).
@EmilyAndClark 2 ай бұрын
That seems really unnecessary and a huge waste of energy. The hybrid battery approach with a BankManager gives many many advantages including proper charging of your Li bank for much longer life.
@stephenburnage7687 2 ай бұрын
@EmilyAndClark Can you explain why you consider it a waste of energy? Inverters have an efficiency of 85% plus and so do smart chargers. Moreover, if I am only charging this way when the engine is running, the increase in diesel fuel consumption is marginal. Isn't the issue more a question of whether the smart charger will accept an imperfect sine wave (although mine accepts the output of a Gen set), cost and space (would need a 40 to 50 A Inverter). Not keen on the alternator being dedicated to a (lead acid) start battery as would have to reconfigure or remove the combiner arrangement.
@EmilyAndClark 2 ай бұрын
You can do it anyway you like. I suggest this approach. www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms Sure it's like 20 percent heat waste TWICE. If that doesn't bother you go for it. I'm not going to engineer your system in a direction I don't believe in. My approach has a lot of advantages but if you only concentrate that it's the only way to charge li correctly for a long life that should be enough. It's just extra points that it is a simpler more robust approach.