I'm an INTJ and I can see that a lot in one of my ENTP friends. It seems like being responsible for arguing for your ideas, and as soon as someone limit these ideas to a stereotype, a group, you're giving an onus of defending points that aren't the objective concepts ENTPs would like to be talking about, they don't necessarily agree with, and, the way I most relate to... slow them down, intelectually. I relate to it because my intution also requires me to hone in my focus and energy to whatever I'm thinking/talking about, and keep at it uninterrupted. Whenever someone breaks my flow, it annoys me a lot. In my Ni way, specially when it is to state random facts that are loosely related (and sometimes not even that) to the conceptual points I'm making, or to the solution of the conflict/problem in question. As for ENTPs, I agree that rejecting "boxes" allows you to expand your thoughts to where they wouldn"t otherwise, with the goals of objectivity and logical soundness, rather than consistency to the box's paradigms; lets you steer away from heard mentality and be a free thinker. Doing that is so hard, no wonder we get defensive of our "intelectual persona."

Yes ! I’m ENTP. And this really frustrates me

Sounds like something a woman would say.

if that happens in a debate just say labeling u instead of the idea is a falacy and it not allowed in a debate

Exactly… it’s because if you label me as “a new ager” then in your mind you think that I subscribe to every belief & idea that is found in the new age. But in truth I cherry-pick certain parts that I agree with and others that I don’t agree with. But when you give me the label “new ager” … you are essentially straw-manning my intellectual position. You think that you know everything I believe to be true or not true by fitting me into your pre-determined category of “new ager” whereas in truth my perspective is a mish-mash of hundreds of other perspectives that I’ve studied throughout my life.

I'm thinking the frustration might stem from the fact that if you have been labelled, the tribe starts thinking that you don't really have much else to say outside your label. Which is simply not true. Like it's limiting your ability to relay information. For example, in Jordan's case, what if he had good reasons to not want to entertain someone's preferred pronouns but is forced to because of the legislation. Like it's frustrating if people refuse to listen to any of your reasons and are quick to punish or judge you. Like if they could just take the time to listen and understand you instead of jumping the gun (because of the label) they might actually understand the worth of what you're saying.

I broke my feet today because I kicked my computer because someone commented that my videos are bad! I hate unjustified criticism. Please wish me a speedy recovery, dear mrieor

Well put, I was feeling the same thing.

just say they are making a falacy in a ideas debate

笑 笑 笑

then they will push a bunch of labels on you too 🤣

yes and the next time he will come with new info lol

@@che4840 yeah but all of them will be just based on the other person's insecurities huehuheuheueheuheuehue

I think a really clear illustration of this would be an interview with Mitt Romney when he was running for president against Obama. I remember the interviewer wanted him to talk about Mormonism and his faith, which is kind of a normal question that presidential candidates get asked. But Romney's response was really surprising to me. He just flipped out. And he basically started ranting against the system, in this case, the media. He said something to the effect of: "Why do all the journalists want to ask me about my Mormonism every time? I want to talk about my ideas for president. But all my interviews get hijacked by everybody get back up the obsession with Mormonism. You don't do that to my opponent." So that's a case where he's getting really mad by the label even though he's obviously not ashamed of being a Mormon. It's because the label is replacing a deeper conversation, it's silencing his ideas.

so true

That's a great way of putting it. So the underlying fear is that the labelling implies subjectivity in your observations, right? That your perspective is informed by tradition, madness, mindless acceptance, or herd mentality... anything other than the truth: a very conscious effort to be objective. On the other hand, there's also the frustration of being forced back into dealing with minutia, into "being realistic, grounded, " which serves as a questioning of the value you can bring, of your sanity, and makes you feel unappreciated when you have to "go back to this again" because people are not following your attempts of figuring out the world. They aren't telling you how freaking cool it is. :')

hmm, I think I know why I hate it, after reading this. You might be unto something. In political discourse, when people want to label things like right or left, I hate it. Because it puts a lot of baggage into each idea. baggage which could make someone dismiss it or accept it, just because they identify or the left or right. And I am like, no! each idea should be analyzed by itself. It should be stripped of any emotional baggage, and analyze if it has merit on its own. But I am afraid and or angry that people just ignore the ideas, and choose based on those labels. Likewise, when i present myself as an ENTP. I always start giving lots of disclaimer. I am like, yeah I am fairly certain I am an ENTP, but I am nothing like the stereotypes for the ENTP. Because I am like X, I have well developed Fe. And I end up giving them a whole crash course on MBTI, and how the functions work relating to the ENTP.... lmao. But it is all so they do not get the wrong idea, based on the label, of how I really am. Sometimes I am even hesitant to say I am an ENTP because of that.

Exactly. That's why I believe Dr. Jordan Peterson & Jocko Willink are spot on when they speak of precise/accurate articulation as though it's a superpower; preempt all that manipulative horse 💩... Orrr... "I'm yer huckleberry... WHEEEEEEEEEEEEE."

Saying that Trump is just a buffoon is pretty much committing the same mistake as saying he's "basically Hitler," no? You're still demonizing him. No matter what you think of the man - I absolutely love his character, not gonna deny it - no simple buffoon would be able to do what Trump did with MAGA and becoming president. He has got leadership qualities and brains too.

@@oscarl.3563 "is just a buffoon" I never said that. I said is a buffoon, not just a buffoon. Basically I am describing the way he acts, but I am not making a judgement on policies or even intellect. Buffoon means "a ridiculous but amusing person; a clown." Which that is basically Trump. But again, I am not saying anything else about him. I am not demonizing him. I am indeed very hesitant to say whether he was a good or bad president, I think he was both. But maybe I wasn't clear enough, and I apologize for that. But buffoon is a way to describe how someone carries themself, not of competence or intelligence. I do think he is more intelligent than his critics give him credit for. He knew precisely what to say, to garner a huge gathering. He knew what most people wanted at that time, and how to use it to his advantage.

@@farrex0 Don't apologize, no harm done, certainly nothing that cannot be cleared up with communication. The word "buffoon" does imply foolishness and stupidity, though everyone uses words differently. It originally meant jester, or professional fool. Sometimes people are so far away from other people with their mannerisms or their way or being that other people can't begin to imagine that they mean what they say. I believe Trump get some of that. Not to mention the gulf between media and commoners, and Trump is somehow a commoner in this regard if you understand what I'm getting at. He personifies the struggle between "fake-media" and the people.

@@oscarl.3563 Yeah, it was mostly my bad for the way I phrased it. I mean, wanted to emphasize, how me not being a Trump supporter, was defending Trump. I very rarely if ever use those types of labels or qualifiers on people. But I used it to show at what extreme I go to protect accuracy in general including labels. Which in turn, it made me use label ironically. Like someone can be the worst person ever, but I will "defend" that person if things said about him are inaccurate. But the opposite is true, I guess I am not really defending, just way too obsessed with accuracy. Something good but inaccurate could be said about me, and I immedeately will correct the person. And it is not me trying to be humble, because if it is accurate I will take it.

@@oscarl.3563 Hi, INTJ here. You admit you "absolutely love" his character? I'm not going to let you get away with that. Impossible not to feel contempt as well as intellectual and moral superiority when exposed to dropkicks like you mate. Imagine what it says about your complete lack of critical thinking skills and clarity of thought-akin to that of mud: that you get your "newz" from: Alex Jones (ROTFL-you can't make this up), RT, Newsmax, Sky Australia and OANN. It's no wonder polite society, and the entire world rejects and laughs at your kind. Democrats are welcome everywhere they go, in every country. You're not. You're America's shame and are the laughing stock of the entire world. But (listen carefully, as this is why society won't ever let up on you lot) the rest of us mostly judge you and your ilk: because you're objectively terrible people by almost every metric that exists for morality. I mean, consider the truely dreadful things it says about your; character, values and judgement of character...that you actually believe the likes of Trump, his equally vile sons, Ted Cruz and Marjorie Taylor Greene (all borderline fasc€`ts) are good guys....and admire them..... Oh, and admitting you're a Trump supporter, is the pickup line equivalent of "hi, I have AIDs". Radioactive. I would like to personally thank you: for removing yourself from the dating market. The GOP won't be in power for another decade, maybe a generation.

I mean, no matter what type you are... Or am I crazy to think so? 🤔

Hey there, not trying to be rude but have you actually decided you're an INFP? Asking for multiple reasons: 1. You "sound" like me--when I read your texts I hear it in my "voice" clearly. 2. I thought I was an INFJ this whole time but perhaps I was wrong and now I want to hear how you reached your conclusion. Sorry, I know you're not obligated to answer any of these but I'd love if you could be forthcoming. I'm so deeply invested in this topic.

@@proquo-s It’s cool, no need to apology, there’s no problem in asking. I am pretty sure I’m an INFP, like I would say about 90%. The only reason I am not 100% is because I would like to go through an official typing session with someone like Aimee Y on KZfaq to confirm. I would say in order to pinpoint whether you are an INFP or INFJ you should consider whether your psyche values Se or Te more. While both types are usually weak at Te and Se, INFPs will still value Te as their inferior because it complements their dominant Fi, while INFJs value Se because it complements their Ni. Furthermore, within an 8 function model such as John Beebe’s or Socionics’ model A; INxPs are vulnerable/blind to Se while IxFJs are vulnerable/blind to Te. This means that this function is the weakest part of your cognitive type and therefore you will completely abandon it, usually because you’ll be unaware of it while at the same time hyper-focused on your child aka 3rd function instead (either Si for INFP or Ti for INFJ in this case). I would have to do more research in order to describe how all this theory talk would actually look like irl for an INFJ, but from experience as an INFP I can tell you that I notice when I am lacking an adequate amount of good Te, and it bothers me. For example, I will make a list of things to do and then I will get mad at myself when a day goes by and I haven’t done anything productive. It’s an example of me not implementing my thinking judgement onto the external world around me. But when it comes to Se, I am mostly not even aware of it. I know I am bad at it, but unless I have made a huge Se mistake, then I am normally not bothered by it. Usually I don’t have the desire to go out and experience the world and I don’t pay careful attention to the physical reality around me. If I’m in public in an unfamiliar area, I will be practicing a basic amount of awareness, but it feels awkward or too overwhelming at times when I try to “tune into” the environment, especially if it’s busy and there’s too many things going on at once. Also if I have to suddenly improvise and take advantage of a real time opportunity or event, I am more likely to panic or freeze in the moment. It’s like I am too disconnected from the reality around me and as a result I am lagging like in a video game. This is why I prefer my Si more, because the practice and routine that Si accounts for helps me adapt. For example, if I just woke up for the day and someone asks me if I want to hurry get myself ready in the next 5-15 minutes so we could go out to buy some food at Walmart, I would much rather stay home and skip grocery shopping because I have a morning routine that I am accustomed to. It’s not that I never want to go out, but I need that Si preparation to make me feel more comfortable with going out. If I’m just thrown into a situation that I am not at least mentally prepared for, I will feel overwhelmed very quickly. Hopefully this all makes sense and I was able to communicate well enough. If you need any more information on what vulnerable/blind function is and what it looks like for all 8 cognitive functions, I would recommend Aimee Y’s 2 part video series called “All 8 Trickster Functions Explained.” Aimee does a really good job explaining in general, I highly recommend her channel. Also I would recommend checking out Michael Pierce’s channel. Not only does he have excellent material on Typology as well, he is also an example of an INFJ so you might be able to relate to him. Let me know if you have any other questions, I’m a big time Jungian Typology nerd so I’m more than happy to help! 😊

Maybe it's because of demon Se? Single observers freak out about chaos/control. Types with the savior human need of organizing (IxxJs) will freak out about chaos, and (in this case) I think people not using labels properly = random chaos in the sensory (Se). With lead Ni I'd say the random chaos goes against the organized pattern/understanding of the label and things connected to it in the Ni framework. ExxPs on the other hand, who are savior gather, will freak out about being controlled and getting their options limited (lead Ne = don't label me (Si), because it puts me in a certain category which limits my freedom to gather new ideas and perspectives (Ne)). As a fellow INFJ I feel the same way as you about labels. With me I think it's also connected to Fe/Ti, because using labels incorrectly might be hurtful to people/spread misinformation which "messes with the vibe of the tribe" (Fe) and it doesn't feel accurate to my Ti. Listening to Peterson and Shapiro actually really stresses me out for these very reasons! 😅

And more ENTP than other ENTPs - there can be only one!

ENTP here, and when talking to someone, I often stop mid sentence or after saying something. Because I realized how what I said, could have misinterpreted as me pertaining to "x" label. Which makes me immediately try and clear things up. Which makes me realize it just makes me look guilty. So I enter into a panic mode, and crafty ol' me, tries to turn it into a joke.

Very interesting. Thanks for providing that explanation.

I am an ENFP as well and you just described how I used to think about things up to a certain point when I pivoted and started doing things differently. We generally have a curiosity about different perspectives and in my case as well Feminine Ne and Feminine Te means this can be stretched into almost infinite ways of seeing one thing about ourselves. You can look at it as a game so that you don't feel like it's splitting you in different directions

Dave is still processing an idea/thought and he doesn't want to let it go yet, but Shan keeps talking and it's a hilarious interaction between Ni and Te.

On the specificity of the labels as a single decider, I'll agree but add to me there are infinite possibilities for these "sides." The identities don't pigeonhole me because I know my identity is more like a cut gemstone. You only see one or a couple sides reflecting in the light at a time, but that isn't the entire gemstone. There could technically be infinitesimal facets. The only time I don't like this labeling is when it incurs negative & especially false judgment on me, but otherwise I have no qualms with identifying with one of these labels that more or less does the job in communicating something about who I am, key phrase "more or less." Am I this political ideology in every sense of the word? No, and I hope no one is toeing party lines like that, but is it a solid generality and I disagree more with the opposing platforms? Yes, thus the label is good enough. I would argue it's not I don't see or or am unable to weed through the nuances, it's that they're being ignored. My deciders have either latched on to one of the nuances so strongly that the rest are irrelevant and unimportant, and/or it's seeing the math equation and what the "best" or most likely solution is to that equation thus the rest are irrelevant. Missing out is less what I'd describe it as, as well, because I don't really care about this "missing information" like observers. What I'm afraid of is how shitty it's gonna feel when the tribe turns their back on me. Secondarily, the missing out is going without the support and resources of the tribe.

@@BlueHazyDreams me and my gf have been exploring this idea of ignoring what you're doubling on. I ignore decider things all the time. In a way that I actually don't fully see the nuances of the decider stuff, I see what's easily sorted through. So is that why you deciders will throughouly acvept to be called a Republican even if you know that some of your opinions don't match up?

He is an extrovert according Big5 and he struggles w/ the trait neuroticism (neg. emotions).. so yeah, a text book ENTP..

@@gadefox people even introverts naturally get more extroverted as they get older and Peterson isn't young, also INTPS can seem very extroverted in their natural element, like when they find the right kind of people or topic or passion. My INTJ best friend thinks I am an extrovert because I suddenly become talkative when the conversation gets interesting but it's just me finding a place to contribute with my Ti I am an intp by the way. Moreover, his Fe is a little shaky for someone who both lectures and listens to people for a living as both a professor and a psychologist, not to mention since he comes from a somewhat conservative family and time that stuck with him probably because of Si, because his arguments are to show the significance of traditional values although he does make a case for real liberalism. It should be noted that both intps and entps can see both sides of everything ;thus, making it difficult forthem to settle on any particular label or definition, but the world really is that complex but most people don't insist in accuracy to the degree Ti doms do, however intp do push their thoughts to reach a consensus on things which manifest as rules, formula and principles of the world which what Peterson literally does e.g 12 rules for live. I noticed this while chatting with entp, intp world tends view tends to be more developed or thought through while entp might be more comfortable to hold into multiple even contradictory world views at the same time, which is why they tend to be more comfortable being critics that questions the status quo they are less likely to impose or suggest or argue a world view presenting it as this way is the right or best way, of the 2 intps is more likely to do this but reluctantly because they can change their mind if confronted with conflicting evidence. Peterson isn't just a critic he is also presenting case for the best way a person should conduct him/herself through life, his also sensitive with a preference to be agreeable when not challenged which is a trait closer to INTPS than ENTPS. of course at the end of the day I'm talking about the extreme traits of these 2 personalities relative to each other just order to determine their differences, that within itself denotes how similar the 2 p-types are in their thinking, either one can overlap into the other easily.

"I hate putting all my eggs in one basket"..."Ni loves opportunity and hates full commitment" I'm not so sure that's Ni. Ni eliminates options... it hones down. Maybe I'm wrong on this, but I don't think I am.

@@AntonyReed you're correct, Ni is about that. Inevitably, that's what Ni is doing: looking for the perfect way to do something, find the one true path that's why it loves opportunities, you just see so much in them. What could be if only all the Se would just conform. It's very intense. Ni doms do this all the time with all kinds of things. Rabbit holes everywhere Intuition is about the abstract possibilities. Ne just appreciates them for what they are and Ni tries to stuff it in their 'what could be' box Maybe i'm not explaining myself the best but oh well, ask an Si guy @edit commitment is much more of an Si thing than Ni @edit2 low Ni users are the ones that supposedly put all the eggs in the basket, namely: Se peeps. Ni doms have plan B and C kind of ready in case this one fails

@@AntonyReed INFJ here. I think you're both right. In reality I may at times have all my eggs in one basket but I always make sure there's a trap door for a quick exit if I want to change my perspective which is something Ni (maybe more than any function) is up for doing. Edit: So I never "feel" like I have all my eggs in one basket but maybe, objectively or at least to an outside observer I do.

@@DanAnear that I can get behind. Thanks a heap.

Not accurate on Ne loving labelling. I am Ne dominant and avoid labels for the most part. I prioritise multiple perspectives. I will remember a pattern but not it's label. And will shift the pattern almost constantly. Maybe you are referring to NeTi. There are many factors at play. I know an ENTP who loves labels. Still investigating if this is a pattern with them.

@@alexandrarebelheart No, I meant all Ne's. They feel responsible for understanding patterns, and those patterns are tightly kept in demon Si labelled boxes. Sometimes. Other times, they can recreate a new pattern. It's not black and white

@@dylonias Tightly kept in Si labeled boxes? No way. I have encountered very many Ne people and this is not unusually the case. I've only seen it in some. Even the 'isms' you're talking about are hardly mentioned. And I have noticed you changed the reason from it being an NeTe play thing to it being about Introverted Sensing. You don't need labels to store patterns.

@@alexandrarebelheart I wrote that first comment a month ago. I don't remember why I thought it might be an NeTe thing. Though Te might help determine what label to give something. Either way, Chaos is connected to Control. You have to organize your information somehow.

@@dylonias Si organises the info but labels aren't the only way to do this. Patterns can be stored in other ways.

I thought he was ENFP

If I remember correctly, his stance was that he did not want the Government to limit speech in general. Which he had a point there, if a precedent is made on the government allowing speech to be controlled, it opens a whole can of worms. He said on a personal level he had no problem with the labels, just that he did not want the government to get involved. I am not a fan Jordan, so I am not being a fanboy, I can talk a whole day abot the problems I have with Peterson's "logic", lmao. But this was just for accuracy's sake.

No it's not fear driving him, it's understanding guiding him. The Oe perspective is very much valid, it can be expressed in a mature or an immature way, just like any other functions. Who is likely more sane you think? Politicians driven by a herd, catering to them in exchange of advantages for themselves, or a professor with a high iq thinking for himself, feeling forced to call out the dangers of political foolishness?

Perterson made it clear this wasn't about limited speech... But about being forced to say what others want. It wasn't about the categories. He would have fought the bill even if he agreed with the categories, because it limits general freedom of expression, and therefore, limits thought.