I’ve been slowly becoming a Christian over the last years, and are considering joining a small Greek Orthodox congregation. This video made up my mind. Going to the Divine Liturgy this Sunday.

"You have the luxury of rejecting religion if you're in a culture which holds it up. But if you're in a culture that has nothing, or if you're in a culture that has replaced any sense of the divine, any sense of the sacred with basically consumerism and individualism, then rejecting religion is certainly not a fun piece of rebellion any more. It's like 'Oh shit, I think I just realized what that thing was for that we destroyed'". Paul Kingsnorth, 2021

This reflects my own experience to a T. I didn't want to be a Christian, but Christ showed up and dragged me back in.

Pageau is on a roll. These conversations are transformative

Amazing. "Social justice is like the Sermon on the Mount without love, forgiveness or God".

As I sit here working on cartoons, I thank you for your content. I am 30 years old and I struggle daily with myself. Talks like these inspire me to be more than I am and to deny myself, to pickup my cross and follow. Thank you so much for all the work you have done, and continue to do.

Fr Seraphim Rose: "The Patron Saint of Lost Western People" ... True! I went through TM before encountering Christ, and when I began reading Fr Seraphim Rose I was able to understand my own life arc. Thank you, Paul!

My two-year-old just now: "The bushes and trees are crying 'Save us!' I'm crying too!" Palm Sunday today. I only just realized that when Jesus says the rocks and trees would cry out if the people of Jerusalem were silent, the cry would be the same "Hosanna - save us!" And they do cry out. It may be clearest when we build a church, or use mineral pigments to paint Christ on a board. Even when we don't, the rocks and trees cry "Save us!" All creation yearns for the life of Christ who made and sustains it.

This guest sort of gradually won me over.

church experience as a lecture vs. "oh, God's in the room." .. loved to hear what this man had to say.

Who knew KZfaq conversations could be so awesome? Thanks Jonathan. These are awesome conversations.

The last section of this discussion is basically: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit." --John 12:24. This is the epigraph to Dostoevsky's Brothers Karamazov.

It’s funny what when he talks about not wanting to be a Christians. I hated Christianity and Jesus saved me while literally trying to research information to discredit Christ and the Bible but Instead I began having demonic attacks dreams and visions. Jesus appeared to me in a dream and I realized for sure Jesus is God. I hated Christianity but I wanted to love God and right there Jesus let me know that In order to love God I have to love him and the Bible. Everything just started to makes sense about this life and the world we live in after I accepted Christ he began to reveal the truth about everything I use to wonder about. The process was extremely rough but I never want to go back to the blind and spiritually dark person I use to be.

I am so encouraged by seeing you two finding each other in this space - in the image of The Garden in the midst of this God-forsaken world of our own creation! You give me so much hope - which I need as a grandma ( even a bit like an embodiment of the mythic grandma of the people)..... please keep this conversation going!

DUDE! You have been so extremely helpful in giving me a proper understanding of Christianity and these interviews are just the best! This was insanely good!!! My wife an I enjoy your content. We will both be Chrismated this Sat! From IFB to Orthodoxy! What a trip its been!

It's amazing how the English have produced so many literary giants who were great defenders of the Christian faith. In the 20th century, think Chesterton, Graham Greene, C.S. Lewis, J.R.R. Tolkein, Dorothy Sayers, and Evelyn Waugh. They were mostly Catholic and Kingsnorth is Orthodox, but he is following in that same tradition. I believe he will be an important voice in the years to come, and hopefully he will be joined by others.

We've tried to create a giant machine that eats everything, but we'll be ground up in the process. Lord have mercy

The same "extract and consume" mentality set loose on nature is also destroying relationships.

Your touching on the Book of Revelation was illuminating. I have been wondering if we are in "that age" (or perhaps, "an age") where we are hearing another "voice from heaven" crying out, "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues..." (Rev. 18:4). It seems to me this is the call Christ offers to those with "ears to hear " in our collapsing culture and world, and you have been discussing it!

Welcome, Mr. Kingsnorth. May this Fellowship blossom!

Thank you dear saints for making it clear how blessed we are to be adopted as children of God!!! All glory to Father God, our High Priest THE LORD JESUS, our Saviour, and the ever present help of the Holy Spirit!!!!

I am stunned as I listen to this. Paul Kingsnorth tells my story! I feel so much validation and clarity.

I can feel it too I follow you since 2016 but in the last couple of weeks I really binge watch your videos and I almost finished your brothers book Thank you for your work, you cannot believe how transformative this was to me. I went from panic attacks and "over-optimization" to a feeling of connection to reality and a caring for reality. Humanity suffers from a deep spiritual crisis. I mean I feel connected now, but I remember how dark and bitter and alienated I felt from life and I even think it's way worse with the younger generations. I just hope that this "pressure-cooking" of spiritual suffering leads to Christianity and not another global ideological experiment

I can see that I am not the first to say this, but again, this is my experience exactly. I was seeking constantly, and once I understood what Christ meant, I was dragged in kicking and screaming. As Mr. Kingsnorth says "Right, so what are you supposed to do with that information?". That was exactly it. I find great relief in this since I suspect this is a wave washing across our culture. May the seeds be fruitful!

So wild that my priest talked to me about Paul Kingsnorth a few weeks ago and I'm so into the symbolic world. Then, this happens! Everything is falling into place. Yessss!

Guys, fantastic conversation! This brings together so many issues I have been dealing with recently, without being able to see the connections. Please continue this conversation soon!!

If I can find a well written, updated BIBLE, I will read it, which I have never done in nearly 70 years, but been listening to Jordon Peterson a lot, and now Paul Kingsnorth, and it seems I am being shown the path.

It is almost five in the morning in Sweden. U need to wake up in a few hours, and I been stucked. I have Studied religion, Christianity and the Bible for many years, but I've never heard something like this. Such a depth still very rational and spiritual the same time. I dit get a new mindblowing psychological interpretation of the Biblical stories from Jordan Peterson ( he lead me here) but from here I really get challenged. It's all a new way to look at Christianity, but completely rational. It is practical and it somehow ties everything, every aspect of humanity together. And every time I start to watch I have no clue of were it is going.

Another absolute banger. Jonathan pumping out insanely fascinating interviews one after another 🦞

Boom. And i'm a practicing, devout Catholic .man ..this hit me over the head. My mind and heart are so much clearer. Carry the cross better and higher...

I am so delighted Paul Kingsnorth has become a professed Eastern Orthodox Christian!

The best discussion I have heard in years!!! Thank you both. 🙏

This conversation was very helpful for me, thank you. I also just ordered one of Paul's novel. I can't wait to plunge in it ! Thank you for enabling me to discover Paul and his work.

What a fantastic interview. Thank you so much. This has been a tough Lent for me and this is a great addition to the last few days.

Ah yes, this is my evening sorted.

I'm 3 mins in and screaming in agreement...

I'm one punk that became a liturgical Christian

Ah ha! You two meet! Excited for this one

I keep finding myeslf returning to this talk again and again...

Paul is right. Most crisis in the modern world are not political, not technological, and not economic, but ethical, and ultimately spiritual, in nature.

The Wake is a real work of art. He’s an impressive writer. It struck a cord in me and was so different than anything I’ve read before, yet puts to words feelings we all have.

Thank you for introducing us to Paul. Very interesting conversation indeed

I've honestly started to see this as the real deal, and the quest for money, power, and authority, a kind of side hustle.

I'm currently at 44 minutes 35 seconds thank you for this both of you. You are summarizing and echoing back many thoughts and feelings that I've had about my Christianity since I was a boy.

This is so cool. I read Kingsnorth's One No Many Yesses back when I was a teen. Great to see him here with Jonathan.

Fr. Seraphim Rose, the Patron Saint of lost western people. Very true. The Saint for the disillusioned modern materialist.

I feel much more in tune with Paul now, than when I watched his video 'can humanity save the world?'

I think this is up there with one of my favorite conversations so far.

One of the most powerful sign posts leading me to Orhodoxy was a simple quote from Kallistos Ware - "Man's function is not to exploit and dominate nature, but to hallow and transfigure it."

This was a great way to enjoy my lunch break!! Ty.

Yes being fully Alive in our landscape, (England for me) whether by the sea or inland, being as aware as possible of everything and making a balance between all the various potentials, negative and positive Can make for a deeper meaning with the Mystery.

Jonathan , you and JP have brought me back to a more Christ centered life.I’m 62 and was deeply impacted by the book I am Third by Gale Sayers in the 60’s . A portion of it turned into movie, Brian’s Song. A black man a white man story. One dying,one impacted immensely by his friends death. Can’t help but think about the placement of the self he states in the title of the book listening to your podcast.

God bless you both and thank you!

One of the best talks I have listened to in a while. Thank you

I pray whoever reads this will be successful, keep fighting for success, them rich stay rich by spending like the poor and investing why the poor stay poor be spending like the rich yet not investing, Roar!! Invest, earn and be successful.

I too had a varied spiritual path, but not as varied as Paul. I loved seeing Jonathan smile when Paul was talking about his path while seeking :)

This was a great and revitalizing talk. Probably one of the best I've seen from you Jonathan

This is fascinating. I live in Ireland too and am a reverted Catholic but increasingly disappointed and even distressed with the way the Church authorities are leading us,or rather, filing in leading us, especially over abortion and this covid con-job. I still believe in the Faith though and it's true that Christianity is still very much a part of our landscape, what with the shrines, holy wells and Mass rocks. I think that despite their all the hideous things that have happened here in recent years, they will never totally succeed in driving Christ nor His Mother out of Ireland, nor out of every single last one of our hearts! God bless and keep ye both and all here!

This was so valuable. I believe there are a lot of people who are in a phase where what and how Paul is presenting his thoughts and journey can open new doors. Relatable background, focus on values from different perspectives. Thank you both!

This is really good thank you both so much for your time and what you do!🦋🕊

This is one of the best interviews I have watched. It is so good that I keep returning to it and watching it again and again and again. Thank you very much.

So insightful conversation!

Thank you sirs. Really really good. I didn't want it to end. I could have listened for another hour.

We would have always ended up here, getting it "right" wasn't within our skill set. That's part of God's glory, He always knew what sludge we are and demonstrating the depth and range of His power IS the plan, and all of creation will see it.

Amen, it's a struggle but so is life if you don't have Christ. Be blessed all. And praying for our enemies is tough. I always keep telling myself that these days. As I see 99.99% of politicians as my enemies. Thank God for Jesus Christ. Peace all.

This might be the most brilliant conversation on yt. They're talking about the weightiest things there are and are saying very heavy things with such lightness that it's just a joy :) I died laughing a few times: 1. "Give all my money away? What are you talking about?!" 2. "Eat flesh, drink blood? That's disgusting!" and 3. (the greatest one) "What kind of God gets himself killed??" Uhh... again... cry-laughing. The delivery! Pefect. I don't watch sitcoms, but I think I'd enjoy Paul's. The man is hilarious. And Jonathan... being Jonathan... just the greatest coversation ever :) So happy now ^^

Every culture always talked about the tree of life in the middle of the garden and in a sense the tree of life is each of us and the wall around the city is our aura we are all Trees in the garden and we need to give our light and life to one another so that we can create this paradise together. It's awesome to talk about this stuff but right action is the only way to fix any of these problems

Was enthralled the whole way through this. Wow. Keep up the good work!

I read the Bible and I've read a few books by Kierkegaard (Works of Love and Training in Christianity) but I'd been wondering what else to read, especially from an Orthodox perspective. Thank you for an answer, Jonathan. Just ordered Philokalia, Volume 1.

I just hope that those who are strongly connected to Social Justice find their way into what Pageau refers to as the "strange movement" taking place in our culture. That's how I've found my way here, and this is a much more satisfying path to walk than its self-righteous secular alternative.

I’m going back to church after discovering Paul. Yes, organized religion has faults, but so do people. I understand humility better now. I am gonna go with an open heart and a humble attitude. God bless ✌️ I just discovered you Jonathan, I’m going to look more into your work as well!

That comment from Jonathan about star trek being the thing new Atheists promised us and what we got was 'something darker' is very telling. People complain that the recent star trek movies are dark & the DC comics movies aren't like the shiny, bright Christopher Reeve superman movies but they don't seem to realize is that art imitates life and these movies are a mirror of the culture now.

Normally I find myself in knots with intellectual babble during most of Pageaus interviews. However, this one is clear and concise. Nice 👍🏼

Helloooo!! We Anglicans have strong liturgical practices, and have preserved some if not all of the ancient catholic practice of the pre Reformation English church.

JESUS "came and "dragged me to HIM" also. The Desert Fathers helped me to walk in the right places... as a trained philosopher I am now living a relatively peaceful life.

Been following Kingsnorth since Drher mentioned him to Pageau. This was fantastic!!

Paul's discussion with Alex Kaschuta on the Subversive podcast brought me here. Good stuff.

This was a very, very good conversation.

This is a brilliant and beautiful discussion

This is powerful stuff. Thank you.

I'm 40 years old and not a Christian, but several insightful ideas and interpretations are mentioned in this discussion.

The modern world puts the Tower of Babel to shame, and Sodom and Gamorrah to shame.

Awesome conversation guys.

Great Discussion! Thanks for sharing.

Bless ur work bro, loving the content!

Amazing talk

36:35 This is brilliant. Its the description of our time

Permaculture solves the environmental issues with humanity presented as the solution rather than just the problem.

Excellent, thank you for this.

This is my favorite of favorites like...yes, THIS!

The Sacrifice of Christ is really presented in a fresh and profound way by Hieromonk Damascene in Christ the Eternal Tao. His section in that book, "The Gospel According to Lao Tsu" is transformative. This book resonates powerfully with the teaching of St Silouan, Elder Sophrony and Fr Zacharias Zacharou on Christ "inverting the pyramid," placing himself at the very bottom of the pyramid. He dies raised up on the cross, but in doing so he goes to the lowest place.

Beautiful. Articulate. Praise God. Thank you.

This is a fantastic interview

It'd be great if you'd interview Dr. E Michael Jones.

Great conversation!!!

Jonathan have you been reading Rene Girard? You threw away some lines in this conversation that reminded me strongly of him. Fascinating guest too; great talk!

Powerful.

👏👏👏fantastic discussion. Thank you both 😊

Ohh, well said, both of you, very well said. Deeply inspiring!

In our current moment, to varying degrees of severity, we’re all suffering through some version of severe disruption. Many - too many - are struggling with devastating consequences to their health or livelihoods. Yet hardship has a powerful way to unlock a drive for a better life and a better world. This pandemic we’re going through… might be the best thing that has happened to us, as we are forced to re-evaluate pretty much everything. Amidst this dark moment, our yearning for a new world has become enflamed like a raging global firestorm. An impulse for ‘deep reset’ has gripped the planet. This impulse for a restored world can manifest in anger, despair, or brave resolve. But how can we find an optimal grip on this potent ‘impulse for hope’ and avoid self-deception? Like all cultures before us, when our back is against the wall and dread drives our hope-filled visions to fix this mess, the cultivation of wisdom goes out the door. WA De Klerk: a South African writer, philosopher, and outspoken critic of the Utopian Apartheid regime stated in the 1950s: ‘Hell is the heavens we build for ourselves. His prophetic warning has gripped me to explore our drive for ‘heaven on earth’ in our current day and age. While looking into this ‘Hijacking of Heaven’ mode being - we must explore how we can avoid following yellow brick roads that don’t deliver heaven on earth, but hell on earth. We have a well-intended thrust towards healing from our sufferings. A need for wholeness and justice is our heavenly impulse - essential for the improvement of the human condition. It’s the jet engine behind our sense of progress. But if used wrongly, it tends to swing into deadly corruption that destroys its initial noble potency. It can be compared to a ‘boomerang’ tumble-effect: Driven by dread, we reach for too high heavens, only for it to swing back at us in hell-ish form. In myth we see this pattern all over the place: Icarus flies too close to the sun, only for his wings to melt as he tumbles down earth. Jack climbs up the beanstalk to get the golden goose above the clouds, only to be chased back down by the giant. Sisyphus rolls an immense boulder to the top of a hill only for it to roll down every time it reaches the top. The people build the tower of Babel to reach heaven only to scatter everyone into different languages across the face of the earth. In reality, we see this happening when good ideas as finite realities become elevated to the rank of ultimacy. We start to possess unthinking, totalizing attachments to these ‘lower’ good things without a transcendent center. In doing this we strip away the noble purposes behind these ideas and our virtues become twisted into innumerable empty desires. These can be any objects of desire, sacred values, and ideals. Like a meta-mind virus, the infection starts on an individual level - validation, careerism, materialism etc.. It scales up to the societal level - nationalism, equality, liberal democracy etc. It moves up to the spiritual level - religious fundamentalism, fringe spirituality groups, suicide bombers etc. Often these narratives and ideals function as myth that can be equated to passions, idols, ideologies, or utopias. As an umbrella term, I call it ‘the Idea’ with a capital I. The Idea is the finely crafted, dazzling misrepresentation of reality. Sure, the Idea sometimes reflects a portion of truth but on the whole, it distorts. It's this deadly distortion of reality that causes the Idea’s hell-raising boomerang backlash effect. Whatever our future ‘hangs on’ is our Idea to live out our fantasies of control or to ‘hijack Heaven’. Within the attention hierarchy, how can we re-order our desires for heaven to the highest good without falling into the deadly trap of the Idea? To confront the ‘Hijacking of Heaven’ will be a sobering call for cognitive and spiritual stability. How do we avoid self-deception, missing the mark, and falling into deadly utopian traps as we enter this new age? Are there practical ways to regain a perpetual, infinite openness and adopt an iconic vision as opposed to an idolatrous vision? With idolatrous vision, we capture it, contain it, hoard it, and it perishes in a world that has become opaque. With iconic vision, our disposition is towards the transcendent infinite behind all things and in this way, the entire world becomes translucent with higher meaning. No object or value becomes an end itself anymore. By taking a hard look at our holy cows and our attempts to force heaven’s hand, mabey we can rediscover the symbolic meaning of what it means to properly order reality as mediators between heaven and earth. Mabey, we’ll get a glimpse of what paradise was always intended to be about.