Ep. 049 - Why Use 4DOF

Рет қаралды 33,170

Күн бұрын

On this episode, Seth is joined in the studio by Senior Ballistician Jayden Quinlan. This show is a culmination of sorts, of our ballistic series discussing bullet drag, ballistic coefficients, and drag curves. We take an in-depth look at the 4DOF Ballistic Calculator, specifically on how and why it is superior to BC based ballistic calculators. Enjoy the show.

Пікірлер: 87

@johnherman7449 Жыл бұрын

Thx guys 4DOF is incredible I've hit at 1386yd in 4MPH wind with 140gr ELDs with 6.5 Creed with 20" barrel using out of the box Ruger Hunter using programs dope. Your ELDs are all I will load they are freaky accurate!!!

@DavidK2007 Жыл бұрын

Love this stuff. Just recently I went deeper down the handloading rabbit hole with your headspace comparator tool.

@hornady Жыл бұрын

Fantastic!

@thegriff9425 Жыл бұрын

@@hornady I’ve tried downloading this app for my iPhone 8 several times. Unfortunately it crashes on opening every time. Any suggestions?

@philiphine885 Жыл бұрын

Love to see a podcast on 4dof use. Would be very helpful. Really enjoyed this series.

@ronws2007 Жыл бұрын

4DOF tips and tricks podcast ep. # 51 is where you need to go. In that episode, they are done with the basic descriptions here and show you how to drive it like you stole it.

@natinnh1 Жыл бұрын

Excellent series - Thanks Hornady ballistic geeks - Seth, Jayden and all the others behind the scenes. I didn't realize that the 4DOF is on desktop computer as well as on the iPhone. Make sure you let everyone know. I feel pretty comfortable entering information, but I'm sure myself and others will be looking forward to the step by step podcast version. I would also be a good idea to suggest downloading the 4DOF technical papers to refresh what Jayden was teaching us along with more technical stuff. Love it.

@johnc1642 Жыл бұрын

LOVE the podcasts keep them coming!! Seth and Jayden are an awesome team. I listen whenever I can. Thank you!!

@hornady Жыл бұрын

Thank you for watching!

@wyattgraham5711 Жыл бұрын

Getting ready for finals and then QC comes on and I’m back in class. I am grateful to be studying manufacturing engineering and I have a base to understand this better than I would have just out of high school.

@CplSkiUSMC Жыл бұрын

The level of research and development packed into the 4DOF is stunning. While listening, I revisited 4DOF and found that you've added quite a few bullet profiles since last I looked, including my 168gr BTHP Match that I use so much. I like Bergers and some Sierras, but Hornady is the industry leader and my bullet inventory is at least 10:1 Hornady over other manufacturers. Hornady produces not only quality bullets, but for the most part, affordable bullets. Who can afford to go out shooting when every bang costs you a dollar or more? It's tough to look at a 5 shot group and realize that target might as well have been a five or ten dollar bill... or more! At least with a ballistic calculator like this, you don't have to spend money guesstimating.

@RMM--uv7uk Жыл бұрын

Thank you for sharing this information. I have always wondered how the science behind the program works.

@hornady Жыл бұрын

Our pleasure!

@mikeinmontucky9085 4 ай бұрын

SUPER COOL seeing the mechanics behind the app! When I started extending my shooting, it didn't take very long for me to settle on 4DOF as my go to for firing solutions. now I know exactly why! Thank you for the in depth videos and the 4DOF app.

@hornady 4 ай бұрын

Thanks so much!

@airgunslugslingers Жыл бұрын

Excellent series. Eye opening!

@georgelza Жыл бұрын

Love the idea of a stater/beginner 4Dof How To... moving to an Advance. Looking forward to it.

@allene.5306 Жыл бұрын

The concept is great. The UI of the iPhone app is beautiful. Unfortunately, the field application was less than stellar. Sometimes wildly incorrect. They're generally close to a trued AB solver (Kestrel AB), but there have been instances where the outputs were not even remotely close to what was needed for impacts. Several high-level PRS shooters went through every single input after a particularly frustrating stage (that I would normally have easily cleaned) and confirmed that every single input was correct. I immediately abandoned the 4DOF app and went back to a trued Kestrel AB.

@georgelza Жыл бұрын

have to ask, with your database vs Applied Ballistics radar and their database, how does the 2 Ballistic Calculators compare.

@nateh2652 Жыл бұрын

4dof is a fantastic program! Though it won't make a shooter what he isn't. Learned that the other month, actially. We went out hoping for 1.3k yards, had targets from 300 on out and had all the data. (6.5cm, 140gr eldm, 2700 fps) when the targets finally got set up, a storm front rolled in with 15-20mph sustained winds with gusts even higher. the whole 9 yards. We were irritated, but we set up the targets, so we were going to shoot gosh darn it. Lol. Fired probably 40 rounds, didn't hit a thing past 450yds. I guess I need a LOT more practice with wind and to learn when to call it a day.

@adamm74 Жыл бұрын

This info is amazing. Thank you guys Still waiting for the Berger 245 EOL to be added! Maybe someday

@user-sp4cg8kg8d Жыл бұрын

Been using 4dof a little over a year and love it

@Kycirion Жыл бұрын

My biggest gripe with the app is that I MUST have a cell phone data connection to start the app. For the guy you mentioned that goes mountain hunting, his phone dies, he charges it at Basecamp and restarts. Well, now his 4DOF doesn't work and he's screwed. There's no reason why the rifle and load data isn't permanently tied to the app and saved on the phone. It should never require a data connection to work.

@hornady Жыл бұрын

4DOF does not require data to start or work. Shoot us an email if you've ran in to this, because we certainly haven't. podcast@hornady.com

@UtilityBi11 Жыл бұрын

I used the app offline, no issues.

@it_is_what_it_is_brotha Жыл бұрын

Can't wait to get to using the app again with this better background of information! I'm still not sure about the 0 angle process but I'm going to watch the tips and tricks before asking any dumb questions that may have already been answered in that one.

@user-gk2ir4ml3t 4 ай бұрын

Jayden is a good communicator, explain the theories really well. I love math and physics, but cannot bite down on the industries focus with ringing steel at long range, hunting at long range its dedication to technology to do these things. I know I am a Geezer, but truly believe in developing skills that require human skill and athletics. For example- shooting positions at 100 & 200 yards. This is a translatable skill to our hunting fields. Yep, it is a question of hunting ethics. Once again I do love these theories, they never should be mainstream in the hunting of our wild Game. Shades Of " Brave New World" folks. More scary than helpful My little " old" opinion

@conservativesniperhunter7439 Жыл бұрын

Early next year I’ll be buying a Kestrel 5700 . I have been up tossing over the Applied Ballistics or the Hornady 4DOF version. I think that I’ve just made up my mind , it will be the Hornady 4DOF version.

@fattigla 9 ай бұрын

I'm glad you guys didn't charge for 4DOF, but I've paid for ballistic solvers that don't work nearly as well. I won't use anything but Hornady ammo as long as I can get it.

@daleksr449 8 ай бұрын

Really like this podcast I learned a lot from this one also

@ShootingAndReloading Жыл бұрын

Thanks for the continued great ballistics series. Eagerly look forward to each instalment :) I switched over to the Hornady app after being a long time user of Ballistic AE. Although my primary 223 bullet (Sierra 69gr MK) is not in the 4DOF library, I find the Hornady apps predictions closer to reality than Ballistic AE's. I may have to try some of your March or ELD Match bullets. oh... on that, please produce a lighter .223 A-Tip for those of us who don't have a 1:1 twist barrel! :D

@offroadsoda Жыл бұрын

I feel like it would have been interesting to have Cleckner on this episode. Love to hear his thoughts on 4DOF - would/does he use it???

@spysweeper Жыл бұрын

All I prefer to use now are Hornady bullets! I hit a mile with a 6.5 Creedmoor 147gn ELD-M at 2700 fps on an 18” Sig Cross! I just started to build on the 4DOF app and was able to get a WindMeter Ballistic version that pairs nice to it! I haven’t tried do zero angle yet but excited about it! I am building an 8.6 Blk and will use a CX 185gn but the twist rate can’t go to 1:3-can you fix that??

@jbcaptain11 Жыл бұрын

I have found the zero range to be crucial for correct data. With the 6arc I had to put in 312 yards although it was sighted in at 100

@difficult_aardvark 10 ай бұрын

Um what? You had to true your zero range by 200 yards?

@ericb.4358 10 ай бұрын

Would be nice if the 4DOF Kestrel had RANGE CARDS and at least memory for TEN firearms/ballistic entries. This is a highly informative discussion if 4 Degrees Of Freedom ballistics. Truly amazing in the amount of data collected to get a VERY accurate ballistic solution.

@jdlucasnc Жыл бұрын

I appreciate the time and effort to come out with this app. But I’ve a problem. Long story short I’ve shot two 10 rnd groups ( 140 ELD-M )with a 6.5 CM around .7 to input my off set for zero angle (+ 0.260”). I’ve went over the inputs until I’m tired but at 418 yds the firing solution is off (low) by 0.5 moa Both AB and StrelokPro agree with the correct solutions with AB using a CDM. I’m about to give up as I don’t know what else to do. My velocities are correct. It’s not scope tracking error. The environmental inputs are correct also. Beats me. I’m glad I haven’t dropped $525 on the kestrel 4DOF yet. But I sure would like to find the the fox for this problem. The scope is correct also! Help would be appreciated. Thanks

@hornady Жыл бұрын

That zero angle seems off from personal experience. Give us a call at 800-338-3220 if you have some time and the techs can walk you through it.

@fastjybe Жыл бұрын

Beautiful. Downloaded 4DOF on my mobile. 110-A-tip, 147ELD, 153-A-tip, entering them...

@hornady Жыл бұрын

Very nice!

@UtilityBi11 Жыл бұрын

In the 4DOF basics, can you cover the atmospheric zero? That’s new and not covered in the other instructional videos.

@fattigla Жыл бұрын

I've been using 4DOF for a number of years now, and it has worked well for inside 1,000yds.For the zero angle feature, are the environmentals we can pull from the nearest weather station (weatherbug app) accurate enough, or do I need a kestrel to take full advantage?

@ronws2007 Жыл бұрын

A kestrel can give you temp and wind speed at your location, even give you a solution when linked with the app in your phone that has your rifle profile. However, for altitude ASL, you may need the weather bug or something. Elevation changes. For example, where I live is 840' ASL, the highest elevation in my county and higher in elevation than the gun range I can go to two counties away that is indoor 100 yards. Where I hunt can be 32 F but the indoor 100 yard range could be 70 F. And 50% humidity rather than 60 percent. I have tried the zero angle and didn't notice too much of a difference at 100 yards. But you would past maybe 300 yards, which is what I consider the start of long distance. Word of advice, the Kestrel 2700 is not compatible to the app and if you try to pair it, the app will crash. You will need a 5700. However, you don't have to have a Kestrel synched. Just read the data from your Kestrel of whatever model and put that in. If I see a deer in the woods at 70 yards, 2700 to 3000 fps is too fast for any of most factors to mean anything and of them, wind would have the most effect. It also depends on the type of shooting. Hunting can have some shooting aspects similar to the active engagements of Ryan Cleckner, sniper team leader in the 1st Ranger Battalion 75th Ranger Regiment. His M24 was in .300 Win Mag, which he preferred. The performance to 600 yards was steady enough, even in Afghanistan, that he could dial elevation for distance, usually based on actual collected DOPE, and then shoot left or right edge of target zone into the wind to get a round into that zone. It was not about knocking the 'X' out on a target at 1k. It was about putting a few hundred grains of stopping power into a target and having that target stop. With whitetail deer hunting, such as I do, my zone is an 8 inch pie plate and make my limit 4 inches. That means, with a 1 MOA rifle, I am probably good to almost 400 yards. More important than that, which is what Jayden discussed in the second part of group sample size, you can have a rifle be very precise for hunting if it does what you need when you need it. So, shooting groups with a hunting rifle should be done when it is cold. And then shoot only 3 shots. If those are 1 MOA or less, your rifle is fine for hunting because anyone shooting more than 3 times at a deer has a big problem and should stop shooting until they fix it. As opposed to some competitions where you may shoot 20 rounds or more at a whack. Then you have to pattern the gun for that and find out if its precision is equal to the event.

@ktmkaratechips 7 ай бұрын

I did a good 15 round group and figured out my zero angle once. Worked like a charm. I had to take the barreled action out of the stock and clean the gun good after a wet hunt and when I put it back together all my impacts are now .4 miles low. I thought as long as the scope and barreled action stay together the zero angle stays the same? Do I have to re-do the whole process now that i re set the barreled and scoped action in the stock and the “zero” is now .4 mils low?

@jbcaptain11 Жыл бұрын

In a email with hornady they claim there is nothing stopping manufacturers from producing 6arc. But it’s been out for two years and no other company is manufacturing the ammo

@UtilityBi11 Жыл бұрын

In this podcast, it sounded as though users had to choose, either use a Kestrel, or 4DOF. I have a Kestrel with 4DOF. You don’t have to give up your Kestrel to use 4DOF, the app can still connect via Bluetooth to the Kestrel and obtain the critical environmental conditions, and perform the calculations on the app.

@erp1776 Жыл бұрын

Once again thank you Gentlemen for an awesome Podcast. Looking forward to the next ones on more in depth Use of the app thank you Question Sounds like if we use Zero angle You can set your Scope to our favorite bullet. Then fire different bullets and log the impacts. And get accurate results without ever hafting to change your Scope settings from our favorite bullet. Essentially having multiple Zeros simply by inputting the impact offset??

@fattigla Жыл бұрын

I'm no expert, but what has worked for me is creating a separate rifle profile for each bullet/rifle combination for example savage model 10 w/175gr SMK, savage model 10 w/178 ELD-x, etc, then you don't have to mess with changing inputs while you are shooting, when you try a new load, just set up a profile with where it hits in relation to the bullseye. Don't change scope zero. You can stagger different loads in your magazine, switch profiles between shots, the app will change your correction and you hit at distance.

@erp1776 Жыл бұрын

@@fattigla Good deal thank you for the info I had a feeling it might work I'm probably gonna give it a try the next time I'm out at the range.

@mosel42 Жыл бұрын

Can you check the AJ on the 17 hmr 17gr vmax in 4dof. It's says one mrad jump at 200 yards with a 10mph crosswind. After a summer of prairie dog shooting with it, it never matched with what the app said. The come up was always right with no wind, and the wind hold was right, but when the app figures on AJ, it was always off.

@matthiusix Жыл бұрын

I love the idea and the effort to make it into a software. However, the application is buggy. Since iOS 15 upgrade, it just stopped working on my iPhone if WiFi is enabled. When I disable WiFi and use 3G or LTE, most of the features work. But not always, the app usually crashed when I tried to run the multi-hud feature. It ignored the wind in some scenarios, more and more often, so I decided it's time to use a different calculator. I dropped the app in favor of Strelok Pro. I'd love to come back to 4DOF, but it has to get a proper upgrade and a debugging run until it starts working.

@jonathanvezina5349 5 ай бұрын

Out of curiosity, when taking a larger sample size is it best to use the same target, or is it okay to use multiple targets so long as the aim point and hits are accurately measured?

@larky1973 Жыл бұрын

I really wonder why for sooooo long nobody in Hornady didn't realized that this app has major error :) When you set pressure above 1016 hPa, elevation and windage calculation doesn't work. That's why, months ago I quit using this app.

@SavageShooter93 5 ай бұрын

Hornady "rock throwing rocket science since 1949"

@mckimmym 5 ай бұрын

Any plans to put the Berger 108 BT Target in 4DOF? The 109s in there are pretty much unobtanium.

@Pew_pewchronicles Жыл бұрын

Can you guys talk about what’s zero angle on the 4Dof app?

@chrisdewet4384 Жыл бұрын

Can use 4dof for my 155.5 Berger as well as for my 168 Nosler RDF'S

@brentrasmussen2440 Жыл бұрын

Based on all the measured data for each bullet in the 4DOF library, I am assuming that using 4DOF is not advised if you select a similar bullet in terms of BC or grain weight. Is this correct and are more bullets being added to the 4DOF library?

@milesn3173 Жыл бұрын

If I understand your question, you're wanting to use a bullet that is in the library, but is not the bullet you're actually shooting (but similar to what you're shooting) to generate an estimated trajectory? Your results will likely be less than ideal doing so. It may work okayish for 0-600yd, but beyond that you're likely to see errors compound and get progressively worse.

@brentrasmussen2440 Жыл бұрын

@@milesn3173 Thanks, kind of what I thought. I'll stick with the BC calculator for bullets not in the 4DOF library.

@chrisnewman3685 11 ай бұрын

Helped me

@prone_wolf8871 10 ай бұрын

More rimfire shows please 🙏

@rudyvazquez8230 Жыл бұрын

😇🙏🏼

@slamminhawgs9847 Жыл бұрын

how do we get ahold of someone to send in some bullets to get on the 4dof app? thanks!!

@hornady Жыл бұрын

Shoot us an email at podcast@hornady.com

@chrisdewet4384 Жыл бұрын

The library does not have RDF 168 or Berger 155's which is sad

@hondas562 Жыл бұрын

I’ve been watching so many of these discussions. I think against my intentions I’m becoming a Hornady fanboy.

@PD48914 Жыл бұрын

So my 338 Lapua magnum shooting 230gr ELDX is zeroed at 200 yards and 4Dof says 5.5 MOA to hit 500 yards at 3107 FPS but I shot 12” high. so I put 3300 FPS in it and it said 4.5 MOA so I came back 1 MOA and hit dead center. Why? And I did get my AVG FPS from my Caldwell coronagraph. I know my Caldwell could be or probably is off. Is that my problem or could it be something else? I did everything that 4DOF requires in the app like my zero Angle elevation I mean I did everything to the tee. Any ideas?

@PD48914 Жыл бұрын

93 gr of 4831sc COL is 3.680 and is .30 off the lands

@hornady Жыл бұрын

If you're velocity is correct, that would point to a zero issue.

@PD48914 Жыл бұрын

@@hornady 200 yard zero is on. I thought the same thing. I’m zeroing on my Tipton ultra gun vise

@russellfleet7636 5 ай бұрын

I would rather have my calculator in something other then a phone. I have had things get missed up when phone does updates. And when hunting I like for it to be attached to the rangefinder.

@toddjenest3212 9 ай бұрын

I want a BC that will load ALL ammo and not just Hornady.

@ellerybice3787 Жыл бұрын

Define "Great"

@russellferreira1997 8 ай бұрын

Hello Team I can not get 4Dof to open on my Iphone, tried 3 phones can you assist please

@hornady 8 ай бұрын

Shoot us an email at tech@hornady.com

@Spartan.88 Жыл бұрын

The Mobil App will not let me create a account

@JacobTerherst Жыл бұрын

I am tripping over myself to send you a box of bullets to get it into the 4DOF library!!! I will even send you unopened primers and powder (with proper hazmat shipping) if that will help. I’ve contacted Hornady twice, and with no success. What do I do????

@Mr.Killswitch Жыл бұрын

I’ve been wanting to try this app out, but I’ve been happily using Strelok Pro for years. I started on strelok because 4dof never had any of the bullets I reloaded with.. looks like I need to fire this back up and try it out! The UI is very nice to say the least!

@C_Squared Жыл бұрын

This is all good discussion. But nothing in 4dof makes it revolutionary over say AB in the hands of an experienced shooter. As an aerospace engineer, a pilot and a shooter I don’t find anything here that’s like holy shit you did it. You lining the same cat a different way. I have 4dof. But AB is my general go to because I have been using it longer for one so I’m comfortable. Also the user interface and trajectory outputs are way more useable on my phone. BC or form factor, all you are doing is moving the Cd. It’s not revolutionary in any meaningful way. When I mess with it, 4dof and my AB CDM’s are almost identical but the CDM’s don’t require truing. No matter what the bulk of us are moving the axial for, factor. But keep going. Make it better. Fix the UI and maybe I’ll switch, but the AB library makes your library look like a magazine.

@richardfournier1074 Жыл бұрын

Too bad you can't use it offline.

@hornady Жыл бұрын

But you can…

@richardfournier1074 Жыл бұрын

@Hornady Manufacturing my bad. I was incorrect, I was thinking of the Hornady Cartridge Catalog app. Awesome that you replied, though lol.

@trevorkolmatycki4042 Жыл бұрын

So… a fancy pantz kestrel 5700 rigged up with a 4DOF engine isn’t being supplied with the extra storage capacity sufficient for more than 3 profiles?… well that’s a drag. This sounds like an entirely solvable problem… the 5700 elite model looks like it has more on board memory but is only offered with the Applied ballistics engine. 🤷🏻‍♂️hmm… Has AB and kestrel shaken hands on some sort of exclusivity arrangement?… Very sus. I have the Applied Ballistics Mobile iPhone app and I’m sorry to report that it is trash. The interface is ancient and it will not connect to an external kestrel drop for environmental inputs… but worse… the solutions are fraught with large sloppy computational errors. I have reported such errors to AB and they have acknowledged them but then taken months to issue corrective updates… now the current version is again producing solutions that appear to be anomalous. The AB mobile app is thus unusably unreliable… whilst simultaneously being one of the most expensive smartphone ballistics apps on the market… make that make sense. SMH.

@timkohchi2048 10 ай бұрын

Appreciate the quality of info, but using headset mics is completely unacceptable on a podcast. Fine for air traffic controllers, too close-coupled for a podcast. I really don’t need to hear all your mucus sounds, makes it unlistenable