Imagination Is Closer To Truth Than You Think

Imagination Is Closer To Truth Than You Think | Tom Cheetham

Рет қаралды 21,866

Күн бұрын

Natalia Vorontsova talks to Dr Tom Cheetham about active imagination, consciousness and life-changing experiences in the context of the philosophy and theology of Henry Corbin, Ibn Arabi and Surhawardi. Tom offers a unique perspective on post-materialist science, having come full circle from scientific materialism through Jungian psychology and Sufi mysticism to the realization that science is not an obstacle to accessing the transcendent. It's a thought-provoking conversation about the nature of reality and what it means to be human. You can find out more about Tom's work at www.tomcheetham.com/
00:00 Intro: Accessing reality through imagination.
03:58 Corbin saved my soul! From scientific materialism to philosophy of Henry Corbin.
12:23 Can we do natural sciences outside of materialist reductive paradigm?
18:10 Transformative experiences. Crazy stuff? Angels, paranormal, UFOs.
31:19 Are emotions just chemistry, and love not important? What's imagination for?
35:39 Literalism and fundamentalism. Literalizing - a mode of imagining. It's just love?
54:39 Access to the sacred: imaginal vs. imaginary. Mundus Imaginalis - the imaginal realm.
01:06:30 It's all imagination down and up! Corbin's Neoplatonic cosmology in the 21st century.
01:17:43 Where's our consciousness? Relationship: brain - mind/soul/consciousness.
01:20:57 What if our world queerer than we can suppose? Consciousness & language.
01:25:37 Sacred plant medicine experiences. Matter-mind, substance-meaning.
01:28:18 Success in sciences: mixed blessing? Learnings from indigenous cultures.
01:37:27 Science tells the truth? Our connection with arts, music, literature.
01:42:56 Corbin's theology: human-angel relationship. Can we retrieve the imagination?
01:48:10 Should we keep or abolish Corbin's cosmology?
01:56:15 Nature of reality: metaphysics of Corbin, Ibn Arabi and Suhrawardi.
02:01:33 Does materialism destroy the world? On the richness of being: living is glory!
02:16:40 I didn't choose Corbin, he chose me! Recommended literature.
Copyright © 2024 by Essentia Foundation. All rights reserved.

Пікірлер: 121

@jenmdawg 2 күн бұрын

Coming back to add that outside of Kastrup’s interview on TOE this discussion reunited and ignited worlds inside of me as an ex materialist but life long closeted idealist with a deep love of science and a hope for humanity inside our destructive systems. I’ve read many of the authors Cheetham references but not all and have my year ahead cut out for me. Brilliant interviewer as well - she added excellent points.

@jenmdawg 2 күн бұрын

Wow wow wow. I fell deeply in love with biology and science at 15. I became enchanted and then came across the contempt my teachers and professors had for LeMarck… and it broke my heart. It wasn’t that his ideas were correct as in the way it was dismissed. I could not get on board. I went into the social sciences and was in time seduced by the rational- materialist model… but I was dating a physicist doing his PHD at Cal when I witnessed his own dark days after an experiment relating to consciousness impacting odds was summarily shut down. Anyway, I’m less than 3 minutes into this and this man’s words and TONE of awe is exactly why I subbed to Kastrup/essentia. For the past 6 months I’ve enjoyed exploring these ideas immensely - witnessing the transformation of my whole life by giving my imagination a role in my psyche again. As a kid my mantra was “I am”! Which would flood me with bliss. I thought everyone knew about it - imagine my heartbreak and embarrassment to find out that was not the case. Thank you again for producing this content.

@johnunderwood9575 2 күн бұрын

I am not the voice in my head......I am the stillness behind the voice.

@gkannon77 2 күн бұрын

The personal testament of a man in his 70s (much smarter and more accomplished than I’ll ever be) saying things that I feel, but regularly second guess, is refreshingly reassuring. One of my favorite Essentia (even YT) interviews. Thank you for (professionally) producing this.

@hoykoya3382 2 күн бұрын

"Introspection is the royal avenue to knowledge" - Bernardo Kastrup

@anhumblemessengerofthelawo3858 2 күн бұрын

"Philosophy begins in _wonder_ and ends in knowledge" - Aristotle

@yogamac 2 күн бұрын

“Yeah, well, that’s just … your opinion, man” -The Dude

@northstar92 2 күн бұрын

The Dude abides

@rickstuart7063 Күн бұрын

Although Bernardo may have repeated it, the quote is from Carl Jung.

@JanneWolterbeek Күн бұрын

@@yogamac😂😂

@MasoudJohnAzizi 2 күн бұрын

Excellent! Indeed "our limit" is the limit of our imagination(s).

@SolaceEasy 2 күн бұрын

I'm not gonna be able to handle over two hours of digressions. I have a foot in both worlds, but I love a logical, well thought out line of thinking.

@TheFloridaBro 2 күн бұрын

No bro.. more words, less syntax

@petrrudzan2094 2 күн бұрын

For those who are not patien enough to watch full video, check this summary: Imagination and the imaginal realm are crucial for understanding reality and the sacred, as explored by Tom Cheetham. Highlights: - Imagination is the realm where reality and fantasy intertwine, revealing deep truths 🌌 - The imaginal is a space where encounters with the divine occur, blurring physical and metaphysical boundaries 🌟 - It is a realm of creativity, transformation, and transcendence 🎨 - Tom advocates for a shift away from Western materialism towards a deeper understanding of existence 🔄 - Capitalism’s impact on the environment and society calls for a reevaluation of values 💰 - Tom’s work draws from diverse influences like Corban, Hillman, and Steiner 📚 - His perspective encourages a reconnection with the wonder of existence and a deeper engagement with the imagination 🌈 Key Insights: - Imagination is not just a form of cognition, but a space where the sacred and mundane coexist, revealing the deepest truths of existence 🧠 - The imaginal is essential for understanding the world and our place within it, serving as a bridge between the personal and collective realms 🌐 - Tom’s critique of Western materialism and call for reevaluating values highlight the need for alternative ways of flourishing in society 💭 - Drawing from diverse influences, Tom’s work offers insights into Corban’s ideas and his own philosophical journey 📖 - Embracing the imaginal realm can lead to a deeper connection with the divine, fostering creativity, transformation, and transcendence 🌌 - Tom’s emphasis on the importance of imagination invites a shift towards a more holistic understanding of reality and existence 🔄 - The imaginal realm offers a space for honoring individual experiences of the sacred and exploring the richness of lived experience 🌟

@ryansperception Күн бұрын

You’re a lifesaver

@tomdorman2486 2 күн бұрын

Wonderful show. I love Tom's excitement in the ontology. I have similar views and excitement in these subjects. I remember my stomach having butterflies when I discovered Don Hoffman. This talk reminds me of the reality shifting at that time.

@ushadigiacomo7213 Күн бұрын

As a Brazilian watching an intelectual in the middle of a paradigm change I must say: fascinating. ❤

@ushadigiacomo7213 Күн бұрын

BTW: I had an meditation experience in which an extradimensional being brought me to what he called the point zero. A bright dot of light surrounded by moving black and grey moving energy. He said: all there is that point of light. All the rest is IMAGINATION.😅 I am still trying to figure it out. Welcome to the crazy world of anomalous experiences. It’s daunting, but it’s fun.

@RepairRenovateRenew 2 күн бұрын

It takes a little while for Tom to pick up speed but once he's gained momentum - what an experience. Incredible view point and way of speaking

@tbabbittt 2 күн бұрын

He impressed me with his ability to return to topic after long segue.

@RichardStone-mq3wy Күн бұрын

Great commentary session here, it seems to me people are finally getting it. The awakening is now a burst dam. God bless ya all!

@marcreiter5675 2 күн бұрын

Only 14:00 minutes in, and it is already interestingly pulling together quite the bit... From "you have such a great imagination, do your homework"... This speaks of the inner dialogue and wisdom, such as so many seek through meditation and the like... Dr K of HealthyGamer has spoken of the importance of such, on many podcast interviews, amongst some of the best podcast interviewers... Especially it's importance amongst today's technologies... This guy was at Santa Fe institute, which is on par with the advanced studies institute of Princeton... This guy was a materialist philosopher... And through the works of Jueng, Corbin and Hillman... (Which in my opinion, gives me 4 more sets of literatures I need to get my hands on)... Has recognized this inner realm of which to deep dive into... Potentially bringing us knowledge of consciousness itself... Why are people claiming "nothing to see here"? 🤔

@northstar92 2 күн бұрын

speaking of imagination and James Hillman, something he said that never left my mind was "if you aren't exaggerating, are you really speaking?"

@a.m.7438 2 күн бұрын

Yes. We don't need to exaggerate. Imagination is limited to experience. Everything we imagine is dependent on what we have experienced. Every shape and color that we mix and match in our imagination, to build new things, is only because we have experience with all the different parts individually. Whether its a mushy ball of mud, or a solid steel pole. We can imagine the mud ball on a pole and make a fake "lollipop." It's exaggerated in how large we want to imagine such a thing. But its still speaking, exaggerated or not

@aaabbb-py5xd 2 күн бұрын

@@a.m.7438 Cue American rhetorical against China. Is it exaggeration? Oh that's right, the entire spiel is made up propaganda, cheaper than the most useless of Soviet propaganda

@tracedinspace 2 күн бұрын

Meaning is a domain, an ocean full of life, form and formless like our fundamental nature. We share this quality

@user-ys7eq8be7o 2 күн бұрын

" I feel like a three year old" great awareness.. ..."And the children shall lead them"... Unless you become like a little child, you are unable to KNOW.. Simplicity, serendipity, Child language is poetry, song, dance, story..imaginative: Daily life story, nature story,fantasy story, healing story..' everyone has a story to tell... Sense of wonder 💟 just listening to your enthusiastic way to make Known authentic Presence ☝️

@hugothales4902 Күн бұрын

Very refreshing and inspiring! Thank you for the interview 🙏

@susannaemmerich1166 2 күн бұрын

Thank you Essentia Foundation, most appreciated. 🙃🙏🇿🇦💕

@timbutcher5653 2 күн бұрын

Love this conversation. Playful and full of depth.

@HigoWapsico 2 күн бұрын

Brilliant! Can’t wait for part two

@bjw22 Күн бұрын

Incredible discussion. Thanks so much!

@olga-diamanti 22 сағат бұрын

funny, this popped up just as I was in the middle of Federico Campagna‘s „Technic and Magic“ -also full of interpretations of Islamic mysticism, where I saw the name Henry Corbin for the first time. His take also seems (to me) to be going towards the ‘everything is imagination‘ perspective. I didn’t know of Tom before but so much of what he’s saying (including elements from his personal story) resonates. Different books/catalysts but very similar experience. Thank you Natalia for the beautiful interview:)

@nataliavorontsova3205 11 сағат бұрын

My pleasure, so glad it resonated and pooped up at the right time. I love synchronicities :) And kudos to Tom.

@Space.Before.Thought 2 күн бұрын

I also highly recommend Neville Goddard's teachings about the imagination. 🌅✨️💛

@jenmdawg 2 күн бұрын

Going to second this. I dismissed him as a quack until I dove in and I’m blown away by the results.

@DavidDavoDavidson 2 күн бұрын

@@jenmdawgNeville comes from a very fundamental level so it’s hard to grasp as not lunacy until you make your way down to that level of understanding metaphysics/consciousness.

@Space.Before.Thought 2 күн бұрын

@@jenmdawg I also felt very unsure about Neville when I first heard about him many man years ago, but after deep diving into his work it’s safe to say he changed my life.

@Space.Before.Thought 2 күн бұрын

@@DavidDavoDavidson very true 😊

@psyfiles7351 2 күн бұрын

Oh this is well produced and I’m excited to listen. Nice weaving in the music so fluidly!

@ericT7 2 күн бұрын

Fabulous, thanks!

@Rob1955B Күн бұрын

Hillman was a revelatory experience for me as well, who I discovered after reading Thomas Moore.

@enlumineresse Күн бұрын

For me as well. Jung and Hillman. ❤

@markcounseling 2 күн бұрын

The joy of living knowledge appearing

@anhumblemessengerofthelawo3858 2 күн бұрын

Presencing

@plaiche 2 күн бұрын

Well holy shit Tom Cheetham. What a magnificent stone you are to have stumbled on and overturned this fine Sunday! Wonderful.

@lisamuir4261 2 күн бұрын

I am thoroughly enjoying this. Just wanted to say hi🎉

@tombombadill22 9 сағат бұрын

You are a REALIST!!!

@TriggerIreland 2 күн бұрын

Such a lively and enlightening conversation! Seems like we're missing an ordinary word in English to express the agentic use of imagination in groups. If imagination is private experience, then maybe convernation (or some such) is that experience shared, and built upon. Spoken accent maybe has this quality whereby collaborative intention yields emotive mirroring and consequences when aggregated such as regional, or social, or national etc. accent. Convernation (or some such) then signifies elective psychological mass formation, repleat with means of signalling ones adoption of the mental model, such as accent. When I'm back home in Cork, I'll allow the melody back in my speaking voice because I feel at home to do so. Outside of Cork the accent fades, and without my effort, it seems. Here online though I'm local, like you. So my accent is, hopefully, respectful. Because that's what feels at home to do in this space.

@jenmdawg 2 күн бұрын

Very very interesting thoughts. You’ve put me on a fun track. Thank you!

@genus.family 2 күн бұрын

Credits to Terence Mckenna ❤

@davidbates9358 3 сағат бұрын

A whole-of-life perspective on how we adapt our innate imagination into the imaginal realm we 'label' mind, does bring a reality-wise sense of our communication biased consciousness, and the unwitting way we fall in love with the feeling of the abstract being real. 1. For the conscious sense-of-certainty we need to function within an inherently uncertain world. 2. For the cooperation needs of survival that forces us to create the reification-fallacy of a consensus-reality, abstracted, version of reality. While the elephant in the room of 21st-century humanity is undoubtedly the semi-conscious nature of our every behavior. A reality of being human that can be realized with one word questions of How? How do I walk and talk? How is my every behavior subconsciously synchronized by my nervous system?

@judithm.2399 18 сағат бұрын

Each person’s consciousness is both unique and universal. Each person’s path is both unique and universal. Each person’s greatest challenge in life is grasping the truth that there is no Other It’s not mad or egotistical To fall for solipsistically Orchestrated reveries Attuned to authenticity That’s how we grow Into ourselves Uniquely so As no one else One-in-All Each me becomes The moment each me’s All-in-One From the song “Who Do You Think You Are” From the musical Narcissist! Whose Muse is Not Amused by J.Mills

@gnostic1955 2 күн бұрын

Well said,

@Meditation409 2 күн бұрын

My 3rd time watching this ❤️🙏

@user-ys7eq8be7o 2 күн бұрын

🙏💟 for sharing 🎉

@johnunderwood9575 2 күн бұрын

There is but one ultimate goal. Know Thyself. What you are. Who you are. Why you are. Seek not the answers, rather, seek the questions. Smiling, "What is The Matrix?"

@anhumblemessengerofthelawo3858 2 күн бұрын

Know thyself. Then accept thyself.

@johnunderwood9575 2 күн бұрын

@@anhumblemessengerofthelawo3858 It is a process. Know thyself, that you may see the truth. See the truth, that you may become the truth. Become the truth, that you may know. What you know, can not be taken from you. Not even when passing from one life, to another. Free from the power of deception. Free from the prison of perception. Free to guide others into the light. Free to be.

@user-bz5hb2pu6n 8 сағат бұрын

Purposely done to keep us dumb and ignorant.

@dabrupro 2 күн бұрын

There is no such thing as mind. There are ideas and some of them are wrong. Abandon the wrong ideas, for they are wrong and obstruct your vision of yourself. Assertions are usually wrong, and denials right. Only by denying can one live. Assertion is bondage. To question and deny is necessary. It is the essence of revolt and without revolt there can be no freedom. - Nisargadatta

@masterhamlet 2 күн бұрын

.....Is the background picture somewhere in Brazil>

@yogamac 2 күн бұрын

Would love to see this man have a talk with Dan Winter. They seem kindred. 💓 🧬 ⚡️

@nathanfilbert2649 2 күн бұрын

Bakhtin etc. Art & Answerability ❤

@thoel1 2 күн бұрын

Simply put: Subjective vs Objective reality! The 1st is Conciousness / the 2nd is Science. They don't commute, though there are efforts towards... But for the moment... nope!

@ArjunLSen 2 күн бұрын

Yes they do the theoretical framework is being developed by Bernardo Kastrup in philosophy / AI science and Donald Hoffman in neuroscience plus Dean Radin in psi science and Mario Beauregard in mind-brain theory.

@ejenkins4711 2 күн бұрын

I CG Jenkins recieved a present 5th july 2004 and encountered CGJUNG well i was uneducated so i just opened up the door Shit i closed it pretty qwick, gesus i heard a ROAR i think GCAT switched on i pray 🍀💚💭

@Erebusdidnothingwrongish 2 күн бұрын

Thank you for this. You have set me potentially on a more fulfilled life. I feel I have been in that “Whishy Washy” thinking. I might ask myself what happens when I die? Well my atoms will go off and be a tree and that will be nice. Conservation of Energy kind of thing. I and been privately searching for a philosophy and religion until I was about 37 still asking the same questions. What happens when I die? TRIGGER WARNING FOR DEATH! Then I did. I died. Not permanently, however at the time I Ws very angry about being brought back. It was an Opiate Overdose. All prescribed and the dosage was printed wrong, or I got the wrong bottle, or I necked them who cares? The main point is it was unintentional. Now I know what happens when I die. I did not know that iw how truly afraid it death I was until it happened. The best way of writing it here goes something like this. I did not get the Heaven is was promised, I got the Heaven I needed. If a rubbish human like me got what I got with no effort, I can't perceive what will happen next time as I'm putting effort in. I am a fence sitter. I do wonder if its usful or painful to hold many beliefs at once? Thank you for this new area to explore x

@yogamac 2 күн бұрын

I need a list of all the authors referenced 📚 😅

@JohnMilller 2 күн бұрын

Regarding language and consciousness: vale Terence McKenna has an interesting Utube on Joyce's Finnegan's Wake

@louisdebeer2055 2 күн бұрын

❤❤❤

@user-ys7eq8be7o 2 күн бұрын

Spirit of truth is from nature's point of view or the young child's point of view..detail appreciation... Know is now..

@johnpoppenhusen4178 2 күн бұрын

Isn't this a natural part of our ongoing ascension?

@awareness2625 Күн бұрын

Modern mainstream psychology in particular is stuck in a model based on Newton and Descartes

@a.m.7438 2 күн бұрын

2:51 science gives us what we can observe to be true in the moment. It describes and observes. It doesn't make absolute claims for anything. It can only say, "based on how we tested this theory, we can conclude the outcome is Z" and that can be copied and repeated. Because what is true can be repeated over and over.

@jenmdawg 2 күн бұрын

Taussig was an anthropologist who went to the arts.

@Sally.A.C 2 күн бұрын

Amazing interview - far too many advert breaks :/

@chipotletigre9547 Күн бұрын

can someone explain please :(

@jenna2431 2 күн бұрын

It's not the job of science to give "truth." It offers a snapshot observation at A time and A place. When it can be repeated we have confidence in the data. How you interpret it is up to you.

@marcreiter5675 2 күн бұрын

59:33 imagination is creativity... Creativity is closely tied to the emotional self... This also is further and deeper tied to the subconscious mind or self, the immortal soul... Difficult but not impossible to access... Given science is the study of nature, our understandings of nature are exploited as technologies... This is imagination manifest physically... "Imaginary" is simply fiction, make believe... But even fiction can become nonfiction...

@anhumblemessengerofthelawo3858 2 күн бұрын

Hypnosis is the royal road to accessing imagination, creativity and the immortal soul, as you say. In the workshop of the mind there are many tools.

@playpaltalk 2 күн бұрын

Death is an illusion.

@samrowbotham8914 2 күн бұрын

Mundus Imago Dei The World Is the image of God. “The universe is not only stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine!” J.B.S. Haldane

@user-hw2si9eq6n 14 сағат бұрын

🙏🙏🙏

@BubbleGendut 2 күн бұрын

Got lost in all the circumlocutions. No idea!

@riikkapauliinaussa1910 Күн бұрын

I'm interested and would like to read his writing but his delivery is terribly jumbled.

@user-kw8zj9zm5g 2 күн бұрын

sacred

@marineothmonk 2 күн бұрын

The only problem is finding the fundamental truth

@jonmackay_TSD 2 күн бұрын

Theoretical Physics IS part math and part imagination…

@marcreiter5675 2 күн бұрын

38:30 minutes in, and I feel a need to touch on paranormal and UFO phenomena... Paranormal activity, given the vast amounts of claims surrounding it... Although needing to be approached with a skeptical acknowledgement of possibly being just superstition and paranoia... Should be approached seriously, in a manner as to attempt to objectively study it... To begin with, paranormal activity could be hallucinatory nonsense... But, it could be manifestations of the deceased, some other existential form of being, rare natural phenomena, or manifestations in the real world from a person's subconscious mind or self... Those would be my initial possibilities, as to how to seriously approach this subject... In the end, paranormal maybe any combination of some if not all of these... Concerning UFO phenomena... This again is a subject that dates back throughout human history... Again, these claims could be nonsense... But, they could be ultraterrestrial or extraterrestrial, or inter-dimensional intelligences with technical capabilities beyond our own...

@TheFloridaBro 2 күн бұрын

Anyone who says its been downhill since plato is a bit disconnected for my taste.

@timb350 2 сағат бұрын

Scientists aren't necessarily successful...scientists APPEAR to be successful. The only thing greater than the dimensions of our ignorance...are the dimensions of our ignorance of our ignorance. Like Tom says..."What if the world is not just crazier than we imagine...but crazier than we CAN imagine???"

@Z0mbie432 2 күн бұрын

someones ready for a mushroom trip

@CR3199 2 күн бұрын

5:31

@fethk Күн бұрын

1:09

@anonymousecalling 2 күн бұрын

Why are you deleting my comments?

@bernardofitzpatrick5403 11 сағат бұрын

Perhaps it’s You Tube doing the deleting. They tend to let the algorithm arbitrarily delete.

@kyleelsbernd7566 Күн бұрын

Downhill since Plato says it all

@timb350 2 күн бұрын

If the world ever does understand what it does not currently understand...it will be completely unrecognizeable. That might explain something like the utterly inconceivable transformation described in (for example) the book of revelations. I mean...what could EVER compel the entire world to convert ALL their swords into plougshares? Answer: THE truth. Not a guess, or a description, or a translation, or a representation, or an interpretation. The actual Kantian thing-in-itself. God only knows what could possibly precipitate such an event (to some degree it is obviously already happening...a very small degree it seems)...but it's not fiction. Just add up everything there is to add up. The conclusion is irrefutable: There's a universe-sized gap in our understanding and experience of ourselves (generally speaking)...and if that were to change (individually and / or collectively) EVERYTHING changes. Everything...is everything.

@wanderingthepeaks 2 күн бұрын

So I imagine the take away to be that the world is some realm that has been imagined into being by some unimaginable Being 😂

@user-ys7eq8be7o 2 күн бұрын

🍃🕊️🌿🏝️🌦️🏔️💦 ☝️ VEGETATION 🍃 A ..Be STILL and KNOW.. MOMENTEOUS 'news' a .. WILL KNOW!! 🤍✨

@deblock2233 2 күн бұрын

40 minutes into this and it's not going anywhere... too bad...

@marineothmonk 2 күн бұрын

To reduce my take away from the forty minutes was psychological flexibility, and avoiding traps of rigidity such as fundamentalism.

@jimosborne2 2 күн бұрын

Agreed. Before this I was walking around and listening to Michael Singer podcast, and in the same 45 minutes, it was quite mind expanding. This guy may be as deep but 45 minutes in, it’s not really holding my attention. Generally Academics don’t cut through to my core.

@awpetersen5909 Күн бұрын

@@jimosborne2Don t worry. I have the same perception. Everything needs time. 🎉

@NguyenLe-sb5xw 21 сағат бұрын

Got 85 minutes in, hoping that maybe something will come up. Most of the time is spent with him emphasizing that he’s a scientist and talking about other writers without elaborating on their concepts. All while taking forever to get the point across

@wildwoodskimberlynewworldd5282 2 күн бұрын

Excellent podcast, but he lost me when he said aliens there's no such thing that is a government phyop😮 I hope he doesn't fall for that😊🌼🌼🌼 I've been listening , but I could only get halfway through it I am an artist a serious one 40 years and I can't stop what is the connection between creativity and life in general you know I don't understand what he's saying it makes no sense to me about art when is he going to talk about the artistic process and tying this all together? I mean let's get to the punchline already😊

@laserhobbyist9751 2 күн бұрын

Hmmm…. I am far less educated but can understand psychedelics, angels, UFO and paranormal as well as spiritualism and materialism, being a leftist and a hardline right. What does this make me?