The top weight of trains for the indrivetec system is 15,000KG, it can handle larger trains too. I did not mention that in the video for pacing reasons but I have seen a few concerns about it so I’m addressing it here

Very interesting video mang! It was delightfully nerdy! 😂 Loved the block zone bit!

It's funny, because as a coaster nerd who recently has gotten a chance to visit some parks outside my home Cedar Point I was shockingly blown away by the tire launch of The Incredible Hulk at Universal's Island of Adventure. I thought to myself "how did they launch so fast with tires? 0-40 in 2 seconds is still impressive. Obviously this was pre-LSM era. The answer is 230 electrical motors pulling 8 MW peak power draw! Amazing! They kept having issues with brownouts, so they added some custom generator sets with large fly wheels, which kind of act like a mechanical capacitor... not all that different from what you're seeing here. Same issue, different era, new solutions.

Would love to see a standing start launch. It's what dragster is/was all about. It's what appealed to coaster fans worldwide.

They're going to build a second top hat behind launch using lsm on the other side of the first hill, then it will loop through iron dragon and launch users into lake Erie.

Love this theory. I have thought about that too but that type of force going backwards may not be very comfortable lol.

Here's the latest Construction Update from today 4/26: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/Z5iAh7Rllpmsfmw.html

This is one of the most fascinating coaster videos I've ever seen

Blasting backwards up a 500ft spike seems super intense for a Cedar Fair endeavor but if they want to "shock and awe" the same way they did when Dragster was debuted then that would certainly be how you do it! 👍🔥

I didn't think I was a coaster enthusiast until I realized I watched this whole video front to back without skipping a second, great work!

Let's go even crazier. They have a vertical launch away from the original tophat, up a 600 ft tophat, through an airtime hill, up the old tophat, then into the breaks where the old launch was

I’m happy you remembered about Tower of Terror II being the first coaster over 300ft. Many seem to forget.

What if, it is not a spike, but another top hat you go over, and it is 2 top hats?

A strong lsm launch would be incredible. I hope you are correct because a swing launch would be such a downer

It will be something that nobody is probably going to expect. That's what makes a company great, they give their costomers a surprise they never thought they needed.

I hate the verticle spike thing. We got rid of wicked twister but now we're getting wicked twister that goes over a top hat

I guarantee if they do a backwards launch first then we are gonna get over the head restraints and no lap bar anymore

Love the video. I’m so happy for you. It’s nice to see the community coming together on thoughts of what could be the best coaster in the world

I went down the same rabbit hole learning about Indrivetec and Intrasys and their capabilities back when Dragster first closed and people were suggesting it might be an LSM launch conversion. Intrasys did the drive system for Freischutz, and that coaster actually recovers some of its launch energy through regenerative braking and stores it in supercapacitors for the next run. I had heard about this and emailed Maurer to see if it was true and they confirmed it was(although suggested that Intrasys would have more details). I also always remember what I heard B&M say in an interview once. They were asked a question about building a coaster of a certain height and whether or not they would, and the response was essentially "We don't strive to break records; our clients do. If someone comes to us with an idea we figure out how to turn it into reality." So I think if you wanted something beyond what one of these companies is currently able to do they would work with you to come up with a bespoke solution...for the right price of course.

Not sure how they'd safely launch 2.5 g's backwards, without strapping people heads to the headrests.

Cedar Point needs it's own nuclear power plant

While I would prefer an extended full circuit layout after the launch, I would love this if you launched forward toward the spike because intense forward acceleration g's are awesome. My main hope for the ride is an intense forward launch.

Theme park predictions actually had a video on why the swing launch could still run 3 trains effectively, with the animation of Escape Designs you featured in the video a lot. Still I like your theory, and if they go for something like this they should have a backward airtime spike (like on that Gerstlauer one thing) that could claim tallest airtime moment in the world, tallest coaster in the world, and it would stimulate the feeling of a rollback

Yay even more time to travel at 120mph through a bunch of mosquitoes! Loved watching this video. Cheers

If dragster started with a backwards launch...then everyone's heads would smack the seat in front of them. Physics 101

No shot they launch you backwards with that sort of acceleration. When launching forwards you have a seat to give you support; backwards just a restraint, which more heavily limits Gs in that direction (would need to check legal limits again though). If they are launching you once and towards the spike, you’re going through the top hat backwards.

Great concept! Whatever happens, we can all agree it's going to be awesome!

I have not been on board with the swing launch/spike theory from day one. Part of that does come down to personal preference, I’m just not a fan of shuttle coasters and intamin impulses because I don’t enjoy backwards or free fall sensations all that much. And the other part of my argument was exactly what you mentioned, the train not actually clearing 500’ on a spike, and that cedar fair would be copping out and going back on their own standards for what constitutes a record break when it’s convenient for them. I also think that it would be bizarre for the spike to be taller than the tophat visually, and it doesn’t make sense for a spike to be the highlight of the experience. I’d rather see an extended layout that doesn’t break a record than something breaking a record on a technicality that shouldn’t even count.

I’ve been ready since I saw the notification for this upcoming video last night at 10:54 PM !!!!!

Great video! Very well thought out and enjoyable! Thank you and I am so glad to see you posting more content! I'll see you on Opening Day!

BINGO !! I have been thinking the same thing with the initial launch being backwards.

3:11 Awesome video aside this transition is sooooo clean

Wow, I genuinely didn't realize I wasn't watching ElToroRyan. You're awesome! Subscribed!

Love the videos Josh! Can’t wait for cedar point to open up here soon!

I like the idea, although I personally prefer the sensation of a forwards launch - real world example, Mr. Freeze Forward Blast I like better than Mr. Freeze Reverse Blast. I definitely think that would make the most sense for capacity (as opposed to 3 passes over the launch track), but I do wonder if a 2.5 G reverse launch would be super uncomfortable, if not dangerous, especially for the GP - you can get away with much higher Gs going forward, because your back is fully supported by the seat. With a backwards launch at that rate of acceleration, it seems like your body would just fold in half, unless you had something like a vest restraint, and I can't imagine any enthusiast would want that. Maybe this is just a little too crazy, but imagine if the giant footer was not for a spike, but for a massive Immelmann...then you could launch forward, guarantee that everybody reached the highest point, add a highest inversion record, and end up pointing the trains back toward the direction of the top hat! You would just need a 90 degree turn or a turn table switch track or something like that to get the trains lined up properly for the launch...maybe it's too far out there, but it's theoretically possible.

did bro think that they were going to build a backwards launch of 130mph in 2.3 seconds 💀💀

Well, I originally saw the title and thought “what dumb idea is this guy going to claim”. But after watching and seeing your math and evidence trail you have 100% surprised me and I would say this is the best theory out there so far. Great job!

plot twist: six flags secretly bought out cedar point and they're gonna turn the train backwards

What I'm wondering is where the space for this backwards launch be? Unless they move the station towards the top hat? Interesting video BTW!

I'm going to say the new launch is going to be on the old braking side, reversing the way it goes over the top hat. Then LSMs on the original launch area and reaching over 500 feet in height. Cedar Point loves records and were the first to 200, 300 and 400 feet. They aren't messing around with this project and wouldn't be doing it if it wasn't for new records. That's right, plural. They may use the figure 8 to get over 500 feet. Whatever the end result, rest assured is going to be spectacular and never seen before this re-imagined experience is unveiled. I know I'll be there with fast pass plus and will probably ride several times that day because it's going to be a game changer and new standard. CP marketing and engineering is unmatched. Ride on fellow enthusiasts!

Why is no one talking about possibly 2 top hats in a full circuit.

Two thing that will refute your thinking: 1: The platform has been dug up but not the big canopy over the station (redoing the station) 2: For the launch to be backwards it would have to be a really long track to the top hat (could improve capacity yes, but it would make it less exiting and more costly)

SPike, spIKE, SpikE ...Everyone (well a lot of people) are convinced of a spike I am crazy...or is it possible there could be a second "Top hat"(at or in excess) of 500'? I would like to see this as (I guess I am old skool) I really like the "Full circuit coaster" concept... and just for fun...Whatif [sic] Cedar Point made a press relase saying "We are sorry to dissapoint you we WILL NOT be making a 500' coaster...then drop the mic with a 600' coaster...

The thing is, why do you need a 500ft spike with a swinglaunch when your tophat is “just” 420ft? With your theory, a spike this tall does make sense.

Probably CP will have to add a dynamo like the Hulk coaster at Universal, even thou its a tire launch it would dim the lights in the parks if they didn't have it.

Well done Josh!! Best theory yet. 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾

this aged well: Cedar Point confirms a spike.

I was a firm believer of the swing launch theory. Obviously with no research done other than the lovely world of KZfaq. I love your nerd video so much and date you to go nerdier ❤. I'm changing my mind to your theory now!

1. 500' really only makes sense if there's no launch at all -- a lift would work (reverse spike cable lift and switch track). Predictions only make sense based on a) They're not building a new coaster and b) The top hat will still be a large chunk of the the thing. 2. Your ideas on how powerful LSMs can be would suggest just a single launch, though maybe extended (actually, the launch track could be shortened with a swing launch, so most of these concepts including what it looks like they're doing call for a bunny hill). However, acceleration tends to slow at higher speeds due to the v-squared term of kinetic energy -- 0-120 at 1.7g average almost surely starts out over 2g. And actually the initial "hit" of mag launches is often very strong. 3. A note on energy storage, the "battery" is air pressure for both air and hydraulic mechanisms. 4. Yes a swing launch would lower theoretical capacity, but not to lower than most coasters, and in return for a much longer ride experience. But the bottom line would be reduced cost of operation per rider, even with fewer riders.

Most people do know. The new US Navy aircraft carrier launch system is LSM. Those jets get up to 160 mph.

All of the theories and speculation is fun. I'm content to wait to see what will ultimately be the truth.

this is the most coherent theory ive heard so far lol

I like your theory and I see everybody keeps thinking about launching backwards towards the spike. I think you launch directly at the spike and then roll back over the top hat backwards. That would be amazing.

I wondered if they would launch the train up the tophat in reverse, and then go into the spike, than roll back part way into the tophat, then end from there. Pretty much the layout in reverse.

I still think it’s a somewhat forceful launch towards the top hat first, maybe half way up, roll back and reverse launch into the spike keeping it somewhat comfortable but with enough speed to maybe break a new record, then launch bat to the top hat.

Vekoma actually made 2 hydraulic launches, one at toverland and one at flamingo land in the uk (pretty sure velocity at flamingo land is a clone ot booster bike at toverland tho)

The thumbnail and title gave me think this was going to say they weren’t doing a spike. Now I’m terrified.

This made me think, what if they reverse the way the trains run? Launch you forward up the spike and backwards up and over the top hat? I just feel like a backwards launch that intense would be uncomfortable, and then probably wouldn’t be able to keep only lap bars. Or maybe there will be some type of dark ride extended layout before the launch to help with capacity?

Thats how you to get to the point! Personally I'd just like a long forward layout, there's a lot of ride one can do with a 400' drop then it's feel only like MF2. I think a swing launch on a ride this large in any direction takes too much operation time but it is the current fad.

One thing I noticed you said is that you feel Gs whenever you're moving which is only half true. You only feel Gs when you are accelerating. Think of a car you don't constantly feel like you're being pressed back into your seat when your on cruise control.

Is there any theoretical limit to the strength of a LSM launch? Like if you had 8 stators lined up next to each other, (with whatever necessary gap between them) could they all drive the train at the same time? I kind of went down the rabbit hole of flywheels as a way to store and deliver electricity, which is kind of interesting - there is a lot of development in this area because renewables generate inconsistently - there is a need for a buffer between generation and delivery. Seems like launches are a great application as well but with the opposite goal - draw slowly and deliver quickly.

I'm not trying to debunk what you are saying, but having g forces drive a major part of your argument while not recognizing all these different rides have wildly different train weights can lead to wrong conclusions. Every launch is capable of producing some force, not acceleration (or g's). The total G force will take into consideration this applied launch force, train weights, friction, air resistance, etc. Another thing to consider is the g's of existing rides are not constant and there is really no way of telling what the max g's are by the general public. With all that said, the swing launch theory makes the most sense by far

What if that footer is just an extended layout at the end so they can pull fastest coaster in the world too.

The “For those of you that don’t know about block zones….” Easter egg made me spit take my drink! Lul😂

If it's going to launch in the opposite direction, I hope the trains are facing that direction and the spike becomes an inverse top hot/inversion. Or if it's going to be a spike, have the cars reverse on the way back down the spike on on the way to the original top hat. Like Time Traveler. Strata-reimagining... Lol

Since they are ripping out the hydraulics they could also move the station closer to the top hat to add a little more acceleration space going backward toward the spike. Heck, I could see a world where the station has a turn table switch track in it. Why not, the best part of lsms is their versatility in placement on the track. Plus it would allow for a wicked station fly by.

This is my prediction , and it’s the new logo of the ride where 2 trains next to each other going opposite way and doing a swing launch till they both make it over so 2 top hats

A lot of enthusiasts would have a lot of nostalgia with the anticipation and then the epic acceleration moment of a hydraulic launch. I certainly felt sad that I would never get to experience "the greatest launch on the planet". However I do think LSM technology is evolving quickly and if a park really wants to, they can crush records with an LSM launch. Hydraulic and air compressed launches were always bound by limitations. With an LSM, there are none.

This sounds so much like an eltororyan video😂

Thanks for the video, little suggestion for you and other youtuber that focus on nerd videos. If you're making insanely specific videos like this, why bother explaining what gforces are. I know the whole block zone thing from eltororyan became some sort of running gag but i feel like it makes those kind of videos unnecessary long and I'd wish they focus more on the nerdy nerd stuff! Anyway, keep the good stuff coming

Excellent video, you have brought to light a lot of really interesting information.

This theory is amazing. How to collect the power needed would be through solar panels placed around the new dragster site (away from flying items and people for protection of the equipment).

What if the spike is after the top hat and you go up the spike then come back down backwards into the breaks and then transfer track back to the station, like batman Gotham escape

Do you think iron dragon will run this season with construction of TTD?

What about the acceleration backwards? That’s up to 2.5gs into the restraint

this is a great video!! explained basically everything we needed to know currently

Can you link that Indrivetec documentation? There's some ambiguity in there I'd like to research a bit more into. "The aim of the linear drive system is to accelerate and or lift a vehicle (length of 2m ... 15m, weight of 3000kg ... 15000kg) along a track structure up to a defined speed and height (5 m/s ... 70 m/s) with a high acceleration (0.5g ... 2.5g)." I feel like it's possible they could make this claim with the intention that a 2m, 3000kg vehicle could reach speeds of 70 m/s while pulling 2.5g, but not a massive vehicle like what will be on the reimagined dragster. It's like, if the declared max speed was attributable to the maximum size vehicle, wouldn't that actually not be the max speed, as something smaller and lighter should be able to achieve higher speeds?

Ive been waiting for this videoo lmao it looked so interesting

I clicked this link and suddenly I'm back in my 7th grade math class 😳

I like how you mention the vertical launch as many people forgot about its existence. However, I don' think the energy needed would be too far off from a regular LSM launch. The vertical launch doesn't have to be lightning fast, so it could save some juice by only carrying you up at say 55 m.p.h. Going straight up at that speed would still be exhilarating. However, I think ascending a 500' top hat in this manner would allow an easy height record breaker and gravity would do all the work getting you over the original top hat. It would also allow you to be a full circuit so CP can claim such records.

I know one thing. January 9th, 2024 will be the final and total reveal of the new ride. Until then, the ride remains top secret. The spike construction will most likely begin in November when 2023 season ends.

Also, if they gave Dragster a vertical launch up the top hat, it would no longer be considered a rollercoaster. As it is, going up the top hat is the only portion of the ride when the train coasts upwards.

The safety of a backwards launch at higher rates than the original dragster seems suspect. Imagine instead of being pushed into your seat during launch, you're getting bent over the harness at 2.5gs

There would be one problem with your theory about the first launch going backwards @ 130mph, they would have to reconfig the harness's to be much more restrictive and you would fly forward from the massive backwards motion.

A swing launch won’t work because it would make the line so long no one would ever get to rid the thing.

The “spike footer is for the large capacitor bank needed for the LSM’s

I hope that’s not what they’re going to do. First of all a backwards launch that powerful would be very uncomfortable against the restraints. Additionally, the first stall on the top hat and the weightlessness is the best part of Pantheon. If they eliminate that they’re going to eliminate the best part of the ride.

Love all your research, btw. Great vid.

2.5 G's (or even 2 G's) in a backwards launch would probably be very uncomfortable. Human bodies can't handle G forces in that direction as well as those in forward acceleration.

Your theory sounds sounds spot on.

Double top hat. Two trains. This theory supported by 1) the new slab that was poured in line with the old starion, making the perfect foundation for an identical second station, and 2) the official theme is "racing," and the logo itself is a palindrome. New foundation big enough for a station. Racing theme. Two trains launching simultaneously in opposite directions would be epic. And let's not just assume the currently top hat will stay. Theres no reason why it couldn't be renegineered and made taller. Another 70 feet would do it.

I just thought of something. What if they designed a twin lsm launch system? One on each side of the train to give double the acceleration

Are we sure it's a 500' spike? What about a 100' spike and the train starts going backward up the spike and then once it rolls forward to the LSMs, they give it a forward push to clear the top-hat? Then a switch track is needed at the bottom of the spike to let the train(s) ahead into the launch area. Theoretically, you could run 3 trains with that configuration and unload/load would happen just before the switch.

Hydraulic launches actually have better acceleration than advertised by parks. With the exception of kingda ka and maybe others, the advertised time doesn't subtract the time it takes to clear the catch car brakes, by which time the train has reached top speed. For dragster, the top speed is (was) reached at ~2.4 seconds, making it a 2.3-G launch.

Great insight. Only issue with the initial reverse launch up the spike of that magnitude would be the force exerted on the human body. Initial launches of that power would have to go forward and let the seat back stabilize the g forces. I agree though, capacity issues would be horrible!

I like your train of thought.

Are you suggesting a backwards launch at 130mph? Holy broken neck, Batman!

My theory launches at 123 mph new top hat 15 feet

I am excited for this

Additional analogue theory.....(suspenseful symphonic epic music here)..... TURN THE TRAIN(S) AROUND! Then 2 launches in a fro-to progression: i.e. Reverse launch toward the existing TH, then an additional lengthy launch that breaks existing "fastest" records as it goes vertical (or even slightly beyond) up a record breaking second Top Hat that is a (record breaking tallest) inversion like the Mr. Freeze coasters scaled up beyond 500 Feet and have it complete a twisty descent with a speed hill-esque air time moment (probably fastest air time under a coasters un-aided momentum record) and complete the course up the original TH, now experienced with an ascending twist, and coast back down to magnetic brakes where the original hydraulic launch existed, station accessible with switch track for two-train ops .....AAAAAND BOOM GOES THE DYNAMITE! Tasty coaster food for thought, makes me want NL2 to visualize it for others. IF YOU ARE READING THIS AND USE PLANET COASTER OR NL2, please make this happen. You need not credit this post for IP; make it happen and the idea is yours/opem source material.....