F1 Piston and Conrod - A Closer Look

F1 Piston and Conrod - A Closer Look - Ep 20

Рет қаралды 62,800

Brian Garvey

9 ай бұрын

A Closer look at the Cosworth F1 Piston and Conrod!
Brian,

Пікірлер: 139

@maisteer 9 ай бұрын

I've been wanting to see you covering the conrods and pistons right from the first episode... ^_^ - Thank you Brian for making these videos.

@daveschouweiler8952 8 ай бұрын

Cool to learn so much technical detail on these incredible rods. Note the new LED shop lights (mentioned at 15m:08s) which illuminate the rod consist of only a pure blue and a pure yellow light, so red and other colors in the rod don't show as they do under incandescent light or sun light. The human eye sees "white" when blue and yellow are blended, but this combo does give off a different type of white light. Note that nearly all LED white lights use a pure blue LED which is covered with a translucent yellow phosphorous that is sensitive at the blue wavelength. About half the blue light passes through the phosphorous unchanged, the other half is absorbed by the phosphorous and converted to a pure yellow frequency before passing through. Only blue and yellow objects are fully illuminated by LED white light. It takes time for us to adapt to this change...back to finish the video now.

@EngineeredtoWin 8 ай бұрын

Fantastic comment...thanks Dave. So much information is sometimes contained in KZfaq comments and this is definitely one of those times. Hope you enjoy past and future videos, all the best and thanks again. Brian,

@daveschouweiler8952 8 ай бұрын

@@EngineeredtoWin - I have learned the yellow phosphor does also emit a spectrum of green and red wavelengths, not just narrow-band yellow, as I had thought. This explains why red and green items can be illuminated by a white LED. The color balance is still different than a filament bulb or sunlight. I'm still learning.

@mariussolomon5398 8 ай бұрын

Thanks Brian nice video very interesting. Al parts high quality.

@Haaspeed 7 күн бұрын

great video. thanks for sharing. best of luck

@Martin-pe4gl 8 ай бұрын

I love those Videos. Thank you ;)

@EngineeredtoWin 8 ай бұрын

More to come!

@jtveg 8 ай бұрын

Thanks so much for sharing. 😉👌🏻

@wayneikola2650 8 ай бұрын

Really glad I happened onto this channel. This stuff is great.

@michaelironsights8347 8 ай бұрын

It has been a while but this is so cool its unbelievable.

@EchoSixMike 9 ай бұрын

That Pankl rod is probably NASCAR, not a fuel motor for certain, those are aluminum and look like barbells. Great video, thanks for sharing it.

@EngineeredtoWin 9 ай бұрын

Mike, you are correct...NASCAR it was...just had a proper look at it there and seeing non equal fillets on the big end axial faces which means matching adjacent sets = V8.

@Midnight_Rider96 8 ай бұрын

@EngineeredtoWin couldn't that mean it's from any V engine with shared rod journals?

@GB-vn1tf 8 ай бұрын

Awesome detailed look at the piston assembly there, id like to see this detailed look at an entire engine from materials and construction of every component. This is why i like F1 and other motorsports because of the level of perfection in the engineering. To have it explained just makes me want to learn more. Great channel, keep giving us this type of content please. Thanks.

@markscully2342 7 күн бұрын

It’s just a shame that true innovation has been removed from the current f1

@davidanderson4500 8 ай бұрын

absolutelly brilliant info and vid. thanks

@EngineeredtoWin 8 ай бұрын

Thanks for the comment! I've deleted about 50 comments saying I'm too slow at getting to the point and unmm and ahhh too much however I'm not an influencer or presenter so everyone will have to just make do with the boring Engineer speak and delays when recalling 15yrs of info on the fly!

@markboeckmann2334 9 ай бұрын

Surprised the small end is bushed and not running a taper with a DLC pin or something similar.

@MrCrabbing 8 ай бұрын

Oh great thanks very interesting, I guess there is a lot of time\money goes into building these engines so perfectly all the measuring and calculating end up wit a perfectly balanced unit

@jacksonmarshallkramer5087 8 ай бұрын

That's a super trick rod.

@daledavies2334 8 ай бұрын

The Pankl rod appears to be a NASCAR item. 6" to 6.3" length with big end for Toyota or Honda bearings. Pin ends are likely 0.866". F1 have very short stroke so a short con rod is acceptable contributing to light weight. NASCAR replaces the rods pretty much after every race, 500 to 600 miles. Good used ones are for sale regularly that can be used in streetrod engines or lower class club racing where they are not stressed anywhere near as much.

@MisFakapek 8 ай бұрын

Pretty thick these conrods you have here, my F2004 conrod is so much narrower in the top part - nice to see such a difference. Whats funny Ferrari likes their Pankl and Mahle partnerships.

@stevesloan6775 8 ай бұрын

I’d be hoping you can do a Winter trip to the Australian track summer.🇦🇺🤜🏼🤛🏼😎🍀🍀🍀

@helldiablo8471 4 ай бұрын

Hello, is the DFV head video comingsoon ?

@kennethhacker3014 8 ай бұрын

Hello from NJ

@JDM_Jeffro 9 ай бұрын

Super interesting video once again! Great to have you back Brian, hopefully nicer weather will come your way! Cheers

@MrPnew1 12 күн бұрын

Thanks for the videos. 20:14 it's called selective fitting 24:43 called torque to yield 41:21 cam ground similar to ordinary pistons

@cobra7250 8 ай бұрын

I enjoy your channel. I just thought I would mention that top fuel connecting rods are aluminum.

@jesus_built_my_hotrod 8 ай бұрын

jesus fucking christ i loved every minute of this

@Pauloconnellmotorsport 8 ай бұрын

Cool video thanks Brian

@EngineeredtoWin 8 ай бұрын

Missed you in the lounge...was carrying two hydraulic pumps and it all got a bit tense with yer wan on the check in desk after that! Hopefully see you somewhere soon.

@Pauloconnellmotorsport 8 ай бұрын

@@EngineeredtoWin No problem Brian, was a great weekend of racing! My Cosworth NME is due a build soon so I’m enjoying hearing your input on these videos. Keep It up!

@gothicpagan.666 12 күн бұрын

We know designs and materials move on at various rates, but there is clearly an element of history repeating. Example being the interface mating on that F1 rod with it's cap being the same basic design as with the Hillman Imp rod assy.

@eurocargarage_1470 8 ай бұрын

Thank you for these videos love them. I have a question that maybe you cover in your oil pump video coming up but does the oil pressure play a significant factor in the big end bearing clearance? Is there a ratio that is used as a rule of thumb?

@EngineeredtoWin 8 ай бұрын

I have it all pretty well covered in the upcoming video - but to mention briefly, oil pump delivery is far more important regards cooling various areas, as opposed to oiling them - if that makes sense.

@eurocargarage_1470 8 ай бұрын

@@EngineeredtoWin thanks for the reply Yes I understand what you mean. Building a V10 gt3 engine now for an audi evo 2 and love your contents and various differences with what your showing Thanks again

@drcolster 8 ай бұрын

I wouldn't call the PANKL rod a std rod... That Rod Depending on sizes and weights, can be used for an 600 hp engine, up to 1500 hp approx... That PANKL rod is what a NASCAR engine would use, its probably a 300M material,H beam design..for around a 3.250" stroke... The F1 rod are for short stroke , high RPM, small bore, small litre capacity engine..plenty of strenght with the amount of material on that titanium rod... great stuff....500ci Top Fuel use Big Alloy Rods....

@EngineeredtoWin 8 ай бұрын

I suppose what I meant was standard size...like you would see in a road car or whatever. I think the last time I saw an actual standard oem rod was about 15yrs ago...thankfully!

@240rsmaxi8 8 ай бұрын

The small end bushing looks much darker than a usual bronze bushing, more like beryllium copper?

@bwatt1383 8 ай бұрын

Great video, fascinating to me is the precision of the squish zones. I've listened to Nascar lectures mention the crazy tolerances there as well. Just wondering, have coated titanium wristpins ever been used? Ive heard how titanium has a tendency towards galling, would that be the main drawback?

@lapin46 8 ай бұрын

for the same strength, it would have to be of a larger diameter in Ti compared to steel. And there is little space as the piston is so flat.

@seancollins9745 8 ай бұрын

h13 dlc coated tool steel is pretty much the standard

@rafaellastracom6411 9 ай бұрын

On this subject, can you tell us if these F1 N/A engines used offset cylinder axis to reduce piston to cylinder loading? I am shocked as to how little skirt height there is on the pistons and am curious as to how they manage this issue. Thanks for any clarification on the issue. Fantastic stuff as usual.

@EngineeredtoWin 9 ай бұрын

Hello and thanks for the great comment, I can confirm off the drawings that no offset exists - the bore center intersects crank axis. Many thanks, Brian,

@rafaellastracom6411 9 ай бұрын

Thank you for the clarification. I would have thought that if offset configurations were worth the trade-offs they would have shown up on these engines. @@EngineeredtoWin

@anridemirdjian5011 9 ай бұрын

Brian, thanks for the time spent on making this great detail video. Would you mind sharing what is the bearing thickness Cosworth chose for 20k rpm's (2mm range ?) Also when you mentioned "lots of debates about pistons guided" ? are all Cosworth F1 engine piston guided ? I recall most Cosworth engines they touch they favor piston guided setup. Is the wrist pin centered or offset ? Thanks.

@EngineeredtoWin 9 ай бұрын

Anri, The bearing thickness vary depending on the finish bore big end diameter of the conrod as mentioned. However, this set in the video is 1.750mm thick. - Clearance 35 microns total - oil film thickness 17.5microns. I can confirm this setup is piston guided. However there can sometimes be great debate which is best - but that's not important to what this channel is about.

@anridemirdjian5011 9 ай бұрын

@@EngineeredtoWin Thanks for your fast answer. Please share if the wrist pin is centered or offset ? Thank you.

@EngineeredtoWin 9 ай бұрын

@@anridemirdjian5011 Centre.

@mcspikesky 8 ай бұрын

You should call them your engine building calipers, it will boost engagement and weed out a few mooks!

@EngineeredtoWin 8 ай бұрын

LOL. "Can also be used for opening paint cans etc"

@jeffarchibald3837 8 ай бұрын

I'm surprised that the wrist pin wall is so thick.

@davidbibra6975 9 ай бұрын

When building these engines is there any particular lube for the threads or just engine oil

@EngineeredtoWin 8 ай бұрын

Pankl supply a grease for the bolt threads...looks standard enough. Molykote gets applied to the conrod big end thrust faces...and for the rest, a squirt of castrol engine oil...

@Everything_Music 9 ай бұрын

I have a question, how does oil get to the wrist pin if their is no oil passage in the con rod? Is it because the oil squirters can lubricate it?

@EngineeredtoWin 9 ай бұрын

Yes, the squirters run very near the small end at bottom dead centre.

@stevesloan6775 8 ай бұрын

At 29 min and the dampening path. Surely what’s going on in that zone would be 99% to do with combustion timing? Push past topples back the piston. 🇦🇺🤜🏼🤛🏼🍀😎

@EngineeredtoWin 8 ай бұрын

The aim of this band is to protect the top ring by disrupting any high-pressure pulse waves from detonation. The volume within this groove, although small, allows a space for additional atomisation of the fuel and air mixture. When detonation occurs, this extra space provides an outlet for the shock waves. It also aids in reducing ring flutter.

@YouCantSawSawdust 13 күн бұрын

What is a typical rod/stroke ratio in a F1 V8 and V10?

@jon4915 9 ай бұрын

Wowwwwww

@Lobo-tommy10 8 ай бұрын

Three cheers for Plastigauge!!!

@EngineeredtoWin 8 ай бұрын

pl-x to be exact!

@jstdrv 8 ай бұрын

How does the small end get oil again!?

@geniferteal4178 2 ай бұрын

Been a while. Miss your videos.

@andym6608 9 ай бұрын

Brian when you said about cracking rods on titanium I’am sure Yamaha are doing it on there new R1 engine?

@EngineeredtoWin 9 ай бұрын

Andy - they are and for the last 10yrs, with two phase Ti alloy, and the process happens in liquid Nitrogen. I think they are the only company doing it however - and I don't think fracture split rods exist in F1 or Racecars...(yet) since its benefits favor mass production mainly.

@toast47624 8 ай бұрын

I would love to know how the hell they machined under that bridge in the piston.

@EngineeredtoWin 8 ай бұрын

5axis with a ball nose/radius/special ground tslot cutter for shank clearance it looks like...

@beowulf885 5 күн бұрын

my diesel pistons have that groove i thought all pistons have it

@markscully2342 7 күн бұрын

Top fuel Conrods look more like that f1 conrod but the size of the other one and they are aluminium!

@Andrewmichaud14 8 ай бұрын

I'm 50% here for the F1 nerd tech and 50% for the voice.

@EngineeredtoWin 8 ай бұрын

That's my posh accent and all :)

@Grooty79 8 ай бұрын

What quench measurements do these engines run ???

@millennialpoes5674 8 ай бұрын

@Edward135i 8 ай бұрын

basically a motorcycle engine.

@NeroontheGoon 8 ай бұрын

Actually, that Pankl rod is titanium and looks very much like the set of rods in my Ducati. The set of titanium rods for my Desmocedici ran about $4200 for a set of four. Pankl doesn’t work with aluminum, high strength steel and titanium only. Great rods but they sure as shit don’t give them away!

@EngineeredtoWin 8 ай бұрын

The top fuel rod is steel...the F1 item Ti. Expensive gear for sure either way.

@chrisandtori9083 3 күн бұрын

Top fuel rods are definitely not steel. They are aluminum 100%, the steel rod would absolutely murder the small and bushing and squish it out of the hole from the extreme rigidity of the steel beams, and this is one of the big reasons they don’t use steel rods in top fuel among many others, but also titanium rods. Are fracture split now or can be and have always been able to be fracture split just the technology wasn’t around apparently. Like for instance, the stock titanium rods, a Yamaha R1 15’+ superbike engine are fracture split caps on the stock, titanium rods from the factory. And several others are doing it and have been doing it now for the last 9+ years etc. But anyway, great video nonetheless, and keep them coming. I’m actually in the process of development and design for a new set of custom titanium rods For our WSBK spec R1 ( 245whp 15,400 rpm $150k build superbike) 👍 I am an engineer as well and a few different race shops and build various different platforms of world level superbikes and super/hyper cars 👍. But pretty cool I think I’ve seen this video from you a while back as well but cool to see it again specially when we’re in the process of designing and manufacturing our new set of titanium rods! 😎 but again great video keep up the good work, man!

@VGHCX 8 ай бұрын

The piston compression height is?

@user-sd5wg1vg4e 8 ай бұрын

I think it is the yamaha r1, the special version. They figured out cracked caps on titanium rods.

@backho12 8 ай бұрын

Yes, the R1 Yamaha has fracture split Ti rods. There are a few detailed articles on Google.

@user-sd5wg1vg4e 8 ай бұрын

@@backho12 Saw it in Cycle World. Look up Kevin Cameron. He is not very good on camera, but his technical writing is the best I have ever seen.

@backho12 8 ай бұрын

@@user-sd5wg1vg4e That’s sacrilege! Kevin Cameron is the best at everything including his well done videos!

@user-sd5wg1vg4e 8 ай бұрын

@@backho12 Did not recognise you as a true believer. I was soft selling the path to true enlightenment. BTW. I am taking one of my Kevin books into work tomorrow for one of my apprentices. ALL HAIL! GOD EMPORER KEVIN CAMERON!

@newagetemplar6100 8 ай бұрын

Cool , cheers Brian . What an awesome looking setup . I’m still surprised they cnc machine virtually everything. I would have thought EDM With a long lasting copper finishing tool would be more common especially on pistons and rods . Going back to the valve train have you any idea why they haven’t used rotary valves instead of cams and valves etc , ? ( the rotary ball Type similar to I think Cummings tried ) . With the development of DLC coatings and seal technology one would have thought this was a viable method. amazed at how they can manufacture piston rings in all fairness. I’m also constantly frustrated why car manufacturers take no pride in the aesthetic appearance of their engines. Admittedly their not on show but motorcycle engines are such a work of art , yet mass produced and very high quality. Apparently a top Russian research team have experimented with carbon fibre con rods , ball bearing cranks and a whole host of other engine trials . YT ….. Garage 54 😜 Thanks for your content.👍

@newagetemplar6100 8 ай бұрын

@@zomgthisisawesomelol yeah probably correct but as far as I’m aware they don’t compare to EDM surface finish. Especially on exotic materials like titanium that’s hard to machine and hold . Same goes for wire erosion, far more accurate and less stress on components . And still used on tool steel when making injection mold tools

@alexjohnward 8 ай бұрын

F1 rules are heavily influenced by manufacturers, they demand poppet valves.

@RyanBedecki Ай бұрын

Do you play the f1 games? I wanna say I just raced with you haha

@longsleevethong1457 8 ай бұрын

What year f1 Con rod is that?

@johnnycomelately6341 9 ай бұрын

re K1300R, nice Brian. The cylinders are canted forward a lot...anyway back to the F1 parts

@EngineeredtoWin 9 ай бұрын

Yep - its some rocketship. Have driven nothing like it that accelerates so fast. Sounds and looks like a fighter jet too!

@donr62 9 ай бұрын

@@EngineeredtoWin what do you think of the front suspension compared to tele-forks?

@EngineeredtoWin 9 ай бұрын

As I tell many people - I'm not into motorbikes at all...I bought my first bike exactly 2yrs ago - a GS...I briefly rode a 125 honda varadero for 2weeks as I thought you had to start on a 125cc...but here when you are over a certain age you can start on anything, so have limited comparison experience on tele forks. Anyways...60,000kms later spread across the GS and K1300r all I can say is I never had an issue pushing hard in corners and under heavy breaking you never kiss the white line!! Purists hate the Bmw setup, I know no different and am told can match a tele setup 1000cc in the bends_in a nutshell!

@niklasendler3177 3 ай бұрын

Hi Brian, I love your videos. Are you making more?

@EngineeredtoWin 3 ай бұрын

Thank you! Yes, more on the way soon when work levels off a bit!

@niklasendler3177 3 ай бұрын

@@EngineeredtoWin Awesome, looking forward to it!

@pazsion 8 күн бұрын

will it even run with half the stroke gone?!

@schwazeneggro4274 4 ай бұрын

i think its scott mansell talking about $50k worth of f1 piston! He has a videos about f1 piston as well

@alfabethev2.074 6 ай бұрын

What! you're ayresh! I would never have guessed😄

@desislavvelikov2430 8 ай бұрын

How much it weighs ?

@joeclone2686 8 ай бұрын

What's the pin offset measurements?

@ipanzerschrecku4732 8 ай бұрын

Why wouldn't they cut the interface with EDM and insure the tolerance stack with EDM to get the precision needed. A good EDM machine can make a joint air tight.

@EngineeredtoWin 8 ай бұрын

Same reason they don't cut high precision gears with edm I suppose and instead hobb and finish grind...not saying edm wouldn't work, but perhaps they have the grinding equipment on hand.

@adelmemo8262 15 күн бұрын

What is the weight?

@Ozzy3333333 8 ай бұрын

Thats no TF conrod, them motors peaking in the 11,000HP now. Thanks for sharing.

@EngineeredtoWin 8 ай бұрын

I haven't a clue about top fuel really to be honest...its in my category of "American stuff" lol. Thanks for the comment!

@saratoga123321 8 ай бұрын

“For all you American guys…” …thanks lol

@danbarton4540 8 ай бұрын

Why is there only 1 compression ring? As most road cars have 2

@EngineeredtoWin 8 ай бұрын

Less friction, less space required...

@danbarton4540 8 ай бұрын

@EngineeredtoWin is increased blow-by not a problem? Thank you for the reply

@peterflynn9123 8 ай бұрын

E1700 alone for gudgeon pin clips for a v10 rebuild...... wow!

@EngineeredtoWin 8 ай бұрын

Yup...they took a lot of getting right over the years. Made by a small company in the UK.

@mmd8488 8 ай бұрын

究極の機能を求めた物は当然だけど美しい・・　理解頂ける方は少ないと思うがガラスケースに入れて眺めていたいです。

@kyliejm2 8 ай бұрын

Piston material is likely 2618. F1 engines are warmed prior to starting to alleviate pressure on the timing gears ie the deck height grows with temp, and the gears then have the correct clearance. Excellent video, thank you ❤

@EngineeredtoWin 8 ай бұрын

No...gears have plenty of clearance from cold. I can't remember backlash specs but will check.

@donr62 9 ай бұрын

It seems counterintuitive to run such a small ring gap.

@EngineeredtoWin 9 ай бұрын

Why would you think that?

@andym6608 9 ай бұрын

they don’t want any blow by with only 1 ring

@donr62 9 ай бұрын

@@EngineeredtoWin my only reference is the couple of bike engines I’ve built using Wiseco pistons. They say to run a 0.004” ring gap per inch of bore size. And to increase that gap the more stressful the application, i.e., street vs track vs drag. My last 80mm bore engine build used a recommended0.018”-0.019” top ring gap. More heat more expansion right? My application does run a second ring but I was still surprised by the 0.001” gap for the piston/bore in this video.

@EngineeredtoWin 9 ай бұрын

Fairly sure this is down to expansion or lack thereof and under crown cooling as well as ring land cooled area. F1 engines get a gigantic amount of oil delivered to the ring land/crown underside area by the many squirters. @@donr62

@RHBTurbochargers 6 ай бұрын

If you have a 1mm ring with 0.5mm chamfers, you can have a near 0 gap without pinching it

@grahampayne2767 8 ай бұрын

Dont recall that rod...

@mikeg4163 9 ай бұрын

Not sure you should be touching the rod bolts with bare hands…at least if you want to use them. Cool video though.

@EngineeredtoWin 9 ай бұрын

All de-greased after video along with the rings - more important!

@norberthofer5830 14 күн бұрын

Another great and very informative video but I have a couple of questions. First why would they use plastigauge to measure the rod bearing clearance. The second question is if they had such a problem radiusing the area where the rod bolt comes through? Why wouldn't they have a blind hole there for added strength and ease of manufacture? The weight can not be that much different. Thanks again for the hard work.

@bydi3354 Ай бұрын

Замерь смещение от центоа пальца есть и какое......

@samstewart4807 8 ай бұрын

lol looks like a CP piston but they only cost $200 so it cant be a CP piston

@richardgreen7811 8 ай бұрын

ELITE ... These are corporate connecting rods and pistons. The cost of these products and the vehicles they propel eliminate competition in a real sense. Gone are the days when "the man" made a difference and members of the general population could compete at the advanced level. If you want to see racing today, you have to attend Formula Ford events. The rest of it is just money and elitism.

@EngineeredtoWin 8 ай бұрын

Totally disagree, Richard. This is pushing Engines to the limit...budget is irrelevant...material limit and design engineering talents become the limit. While I do appreciate your comment...someone before you could say the same about formula Ford...whom was well up to speed on model T engine tuning or racing.

@richardgreen7811 8 ай бұрын

@@EngineeredtoWin At a point ... anyone during any decade could say "this is pushing engines to the limit". In realty, the only limiting factor in engine development is $$$ via corporate sponsorship. What it means is that the paradyme of auto racing has completely changed away from open competition to highly restricted class racing with rules that actually eliminate competition. The driver is no longer relevant. The cars may as well be operated by AI, which I'm confident is coming next.