Hahaha

Said in unison afterwards: The Greater Turn the greater turn The greater turn thE greateR turN

It hurts

@@thehonestwargamerstreams Lord of Change might be a 3 going by Kairos

I do like the extra save and rend they have, and will miss the relentless attacks for infantry screen deletion

Interesting take on the blightknights. I am not a nurgle player, but comparing datasheets they have one wound less, a better armor save, ward 5+ and one less attack. Imo some of their former damage from their ability got melted into the faction ability while the overall damage downgrade seems to be in line with the AoS 4 approach of lowering the damage output a bit. They seem to be a great anchor on objectives that will be hard to move.

@@Mensch777 maggotkin always had 5+ ward instead of being an army rule its now on the scroll. The got 1 more armor for less attacks, less health, no relentless attacks. They also lose the dmg from disease chance. while i do prefer the new disease for simplicity they got worse from 3.0. I'm guessing these guys will be the anvil which is fine.

​@Mensch777 What are you talking about in the faction ability? There is some seriously poor math going on here in this whole comment chain. The disease ability is strictly worse than the current version It does significantly fewer mortals. The blight lords did 25 attacks before which would do five disease points on average which means they did roughly 0.5 mortals each on average on top of their relentless attacks ability and having more damage on their profile. It's a triple reduction in damage done. Now you might say they made up for it in survivability but they didn't. I ran the numbers for third edition versus 2nd edition and how survivable they are versus zero one two and three rend as well as mortal wounds. They are now more survivable against Zero rend, They are equally survivable against one rend, and they are worse and much worse against two and three, and significantly worse against mortal wounds (They went down from 30 effective unsaved wounds needed to wipe five down to 22.5). They basically lost the full 25% of their survivability versus mortals, just under 20% of their survivability versus rend 3, and about 10% of their survivability against rend 2. It was just a big old nerf.

@@stevecatpatrick8056 Hey there, thank you for your input (even though it sounded a bit rude)! While you are completly correct about the mathing you did better, I think you misunderstood my main point and that is context. With that I mean that we have to think about those changes in context of the new edition. We don't know much but that the damage overall got reduced, armor values got changed, less rend in general and a new metric with control score got introduced. What does that mean for math one might ask. Well, you can't compare them to the old datasheet without knowing how they will compare to the new edition as a whole. So, is it a nerf? Is it a sidegrade? Or do they work pretty much the same?

Happy to be here

GUO can sprint now (relative to nurgle units). lol. Excited.

Lord i really hope not. We don't need a single army (Aeldari) to have a win rate in mid 70% for several months

Still don't think this needed to be an index edition

I think it is more likely that they mean 2+ on a D3 which would be 3+4 on the dice - on a D3 both 1 and 2 are considered to be a 1. But maybe it will be ruled as you said.

Nar, what you said makes sense, if a person theoretically rolled a die with 3 sides 2+ would be a 2 or 3. I just got excited because it was phased so different to the wyrdflame burning rule 😂😂

Compared to a guo whose output and survivability is that high!

😂😂 god this made me laugh. Poor bird, atleast fateweaver is abit of a beast.

LoC was always low quantity high quality casters and both LoC and GUO were lvl 2 casters in 3.0. With Nagash having a measly +2 to cast, with +1 & changing lowest to highest dice they are likely by far the strongest casters in the game in terms of quality.

​@@umpac123Yes but they lost the super unbinds

@@stevecatpatrick8056 true but thats also true for Nagash (and every other caster shown). Good for the health of the game.

Unless there's some crazy thing that goes on their warscroll, nurglong builds were gutted. I ran one in third it's amazing, But all the tricks are gone and everything that made them decent. Their ability to do any damage was based completely on their volume of attacks and the disease points they racked up and that's all gone, Rob hasn't done the math carefully I've poured through all the math and this is like half the mortal wounds We used to do from disease and especially for anything that relied on stacking it to seven with volume of attacks. The second big source of damage was also removed which was sloppity bilepiper letting them do mortals on 6s. That was the whole way that you ran nurglings to do damage They have five attacks each so you dumped 15 to 30 attacks out of a unit to get four to six mortals and four to six disease points. That was way more damage than their attacks actually did ever. That's all gone. And then they also took away fleshy abundance which was amazing on nurglings. It used to buff them to five wounds each which made them even harder to kill which let them heal up and importantly boosted them to an extra control when everything counted only as one unless you had five wounds. So this gave you quite an advantage over regular infantry because you could drop six onto a point and have 12 control. All in all they will have to be very much stronger to make up for what they lost. Now I don't want to see them with four plus four plus and a rend because that's not nurglings But they definitely need like good control characteristic, ideally like three. They also need Crit mortals and then either be even more tanky or a points reduction.

@@stevecatpatrick8056 All very good points and a way more in depth and thorough analysis than I have done by far. But my heart still says Nurglings. I love the little guys. Despite them being bad. And I've always wanted to run a tidal wave of them and been unable to.

@@marcbenson1969 yeah I love them too obviously as I run them now, I have 12 of the little guys When I run those lists. And I'm not necessarily saying they will definitely be bad, just that as of now they have lost what made them not bad. There's still lots to be seen but I'm analyzing the data as it comes and thinking okay he's changes if nothing else does change the other direction they will be bad. But there is definitely things that could make them better and worth taking. For example they seem like prime candidates to spread disease if you are in combat with them an additional time, or to make diseased units in combat with them take double damage from their diseases. They could also make other things buff them more powerfully, such as being able to target them with a spoilpox. And if damage goes down significantly and they retain the ability to heal themselves to full every round, Don't lose wounds, Don't lose the morbidex guaranteed raz without having to do some BS roll of four plus, and don't go up in points then they could be viable as being even harder to kill than they currently are. So it would be okay if they did no damage If they were even harder to shift and made diseases more potent or numerous. These are the kind of things I'm going to be keeping my eye out for when we have more information on our index. If we get some then I have high hopes, If we don't then I'm hardly going to bother running them unless they are like 70 points The big problem is that just look at nurgling's attack profile: They do no expected damage in combat without the buffs they lost. Take something that has a pretty standard 4 plus save with no wards, So not a tanky target at all. Each nurgling model does 0.27 expected damage in combat. Literally less than one damage expected in combat from the unit! However they used to stack disease, and you could buff them to give a mortal on sixes with the bilepiper, and keep them next to a hero with the wither staff, usually on a GUO that wanted to take it themselves anyway. So now That nurgling model also does an expected 1.39 mortal wounds! That means a unit of 3 would now do an expected five damage, whereas without these buffs they now do an expected 0.81. there is the new disease mechanic but it's limited to one per army you're already going to apply that with any unit in combat so you don't get more from the nurglings unless they can give you more diseases or more damage on them.You see just how massive the problem is? Unless there's some serious damage coming from somewhere we don't know yet They will not have the ability they currently have to just survive and grind down the enemy, Which was the fun part! If they aren't going to do any damage then I want them to be incredibly tanky at whatever I throw them at so they can tie up for multiple turns enemy units that cost many times more points than them, because that's the only way they earn their points back is by wasting the enemy is more pricey investments.

Great idea

He quick, but love you long time!

ME BIG BOM BAD!

and now it is your goal to voice this opinion on every damn faction focus.

Not as much as teleport abilities and "add [blank] to unit's OC"

Lollers

MEESA LIKE DIS

As someone who's played both, they are basically the opposite lol. Nighthaunt are speedy hit and run, Maggotkin are slow attrition fighters

Absolutely! They play super differently - I was in the opposite boat & grabbed Nighthaunt as a second army to Nurgle.

YOU MAY HAVE

@@thehonestwargamerstreams 😭🫂

You probably pick the general heal prayer or something that buffs so that you always have something to pick and chant with since his warscroll prayer is pretty useless early on.

Seems fine!!!

​​Rob you really could actually look into more detail on this stuff and run the numbers a bit. You actually didn't mention a single change that happened to the army and there was like eight nerfs/power reductions This faction took just in this preview. Just counting myself: summoning removed, cycle removed, diseases roughly half as powerful as they were (I ran the numbers It's 1.67 mortals per turn default), The healing/locus of fecundity removed, Lost our unique and powerful spell to add a wounds characteristic AKA the old fleshy abundance new version is weaker It literally just does the healing that we already had removed from something else, sloppity ballpiper lower range, sloppity bilepiper can only target one unit, sloppity bilepiper can only use one ability in your whole army before you could have two of them as long as they didn't overlap, Blightkings less survivable against anything besides zero rend, Blight kings have less attacks. I think that's all of them, I'm not counting any nerfs that also had offsetting buffs so obviously there is things that have been weakened from the GUO but he's better overall so that's a positive. The harbinger does less damage but his data sheet looks pretty good even though I actually had some pretty powerful combos previously with his old prayer I'm cool with his new one It looks good. I don't think the harbinger's prayer should be a 10 plus I think people are considering the fact he is our only priest so it's not like we can do it the other factions can and save up a ton of points real quickly and pump out some real powerful prayers We basically just get the one, But it is quite good. Overall I just think you're being real one-sided here and I would prefer a more honest look at things that had the good and the bad together so that we can sort of get the idea of how the faction overall is changing. You kind of sound like GW marketing team here. Just the way you mentioned all the good increases and changes but you're just didn't say a word about any of the huge losses we took. And also the uninspired game design I play DOT and Maggotkin which are supposed to be diametrically opposed and the two armies are way more similar than they were in third so far. Are they the same no but they are significantly moved in that direction which is homogenization.

rest of the foot troops look to still be stuck at 4 inches. maybe those 3 GUO list might become really viable.

You need to look at the math again, This is about half the damage we expect now out of disease. The faction preview had approximately eight nerfs in it from the current edition. Now could it end up being perfectly fine of course we don't know enough yet. But looking very strong is not what I would call accurate.

You have to think about you fail in a roll of 1 and 2+, so you fail 33% of the rolls and do nothing...33% of times your battle trait is useless.

It's one of the armies I collect and a thing I've hated for about 6 years

Guo.should be by far most wounds if you wanna go off lore. Krag should be more armour definately not wounds.

@@jakea3950 why's that? I'm not familiar with his lore. I'm saying for what Kragnos is, all god units really, should be able to survive a round of combat or 2. For their point cost as we know them now. His damage output potential is how he's pointed in 3rd. And that really skews the points. That's why I thought this edition they'd be fixing that. But it doesn't look like ir

​@@markpandelidis2079because that's nurgle and his whole schtick is that his forces are incredibly hard to damage and soak up an extreme amount of punishment that basically nobody else could take and still keep going but they ignore it and happily continue. In the lore the GUO is like the size of a mountain often and is literally covered in nurglings. They really should be the most impossible to kill thing on the board. Not in terms of damage output They won't stand up to something like kragnos But nothing should soak up as much damage as they can.

@@stevecatpatrick8056 right on. Ya I mean I'm just thinking of it as a god vs demon thing. I'm not against GUO having high health. It just feels like there's a bias against destruction from what we've seen so far. Kragnos being 700 points currently, losing a ton of defensive capabilities but keeping his damage output makes a similar point cost untenable. GUO stayed roughly the same. I guess we'll see.

@@markpandelidis2079 GUO's damage got cut clean in half brother. So pick your poison lol. Let's just hold on to our hats and see how it all shakes out👊

3+ save is way better imo

@@jakea3950 agreed. I guess it was just combat comedy to announce my 5 PBs had more wounds than 10 Stormcast. I guess it’s still a lot of wounds to chew through.

​​@@jakea3950is it though? Did you check the math? Before it was 21wounds × 1,5 = 31,5 Now is 15 × 1,6667 = 25 Am I missing something?

Imo it's not that bad to have 3hp now due to the rally changes. Bringing back one is a regular rally roll now and hard to do but probable to bring back 2? Gimme that shiet Also vs high rends it's always nice to have +1save

they also lost an attack, the after the fight possible mortal wounds with relentless, and disease mortal damage in battleshock phase. You can only do the spread disease once per turn so if i have multiple blightkings units in combat only 1 can spread the disease. They look to have gained the anvil unit setup which is fine, but not like Maggotkin have a ton of unit options if you want to stick to mortals or demons and not a mix.

Love you

At the end of any honest wargamer video which means every honest wargamer video buy a control marker for the new AOS 4.0. LOL.

​@@drewbash2203 if you could

Like, cool, not unhealthy.

By better do you mean significantly worse? It's better in terms of less bookkeeping I'll give you that I like that change, But it's clunkier and harder to use frankly, does about half as much damage, etc. This is one of those situations where everyone who has to play nurgle or two players who don't calculate math and strategize they just push their favorite plastic up the board are perfectly fine with it But anyone else who actually plays the army and does the math and basically the Johnnies or the spikes understand that it's been made really crappy without even making it More creative and fun? I honestly would have been fine with a reduction in power they just actually got creative with it but they just homogenized the armies more and made it like DOTs burning which is my other army so now it's going to feel very samey when I play two very different armies. They could have done so much more with the disease that actually allowed the nurgle player to tactically make choices throughout the battle, If I was designing this I would have made it able to be mutated over time into a different type of disease chosen from a whole list that most fits your scenario such as being able to choose if you want to slow the unit down or reduce their chance to hit or lower their save or make it unable to be removed something like that. Like actual tactical flexibility.

​i see you dooming in the comments alot. I understand it may be less total mortal wounds. But disease is going to be spread to more units in my opinion. This feels like a pretty solid counter to soulblight specifically as they play in 3rd. It's too early to tell. But I'm a big fan of how disease works now. I feel like it'd a massive improvement, and it's more flavorful

@@Hedonite dooming is mischaracterizing my comments. I'm withholding final judgement, but the nerfs need to be noted. I do not see how disease is going to spread more at all? Gift of disease and proximity spread way faster than the limit now. I usually have basically everyone diseased up by BR2 every game currently. It may be that our nerfs are fine because everyone else also gets kneecapped. But it's just objectively a nerf in nearly every way atm from what is shown.

Sorry to tell you but summoning is No more . And you can only das that some Thing is Bad If you have the full picture . When the full Index Rules and Points are Reveald is the time to say Something is Bad or Really good.

What was lost is irrelevant as everyone lost something but also gained new abilities. We could talk about save stacking being gone in every video but seeing as all the rules are contextless as there are no points its impossible to make value judgements at the minute. In future you'll see tier lists on unit strength but I cant asses value as we don't the value cost

@@thehonestwargamerstreams That is true I do like your tier lists.

To your second point about the recursion! ITS REALLY GOOD. Many armies won't have any recursion. Having 20 bearers into 10 is great as that means they are 50% less expensive. INFACT its better in nurgle as they have. 5+ ward which means they have. 50% wound allocation too.

I must say i have a bit the same problem with the content, i like the enthusiasm but at times is too much.. In my opinion some rules won't influence much a game and others are also quite depressing they way they are written. I guess is just perception and many people like the pure joy and optimism even at a D3 mortal that 33% of the time does nothing.