Daniel is way too idealistic and isn't happy with anything. If you ask me, Daniel's ending where the tribes leave one of the only pristine pieces of land left in America in return for an uncertain future is the bad ending.

Furthermore, this ending also fulfills the wishes of the Survivalist, who started the creation of the Sorrows tribe. One of his wish was for the tribe to embrace love and peace, but don't be afraid to fight back in righteous anger when against a foe who won't back down.

Joshua becoming a warrior of God is the most righteous ending. His renewed faith has shown him the path, God needs soldiers to defeat the armies of evil.

You forgot medium step in which Salt-Upon-Wounds is killed in combat. As result for Joshua Graham "his personal demons, if not exorcised, were at least appeased". Basically it keeps his character still in crossroads between redemption and brutality. Something I feel his character really is about - about struggle to redeem, not achieving it.

No matter what happens he's always discontent with every outcome. Something about that puts a bad taste in my mouth. Joshua's belief in God gives him hope and drive to protect the good souls of Zion. Daniel being a pacifist is okay but in a post apocalyptic setting? Thats completely unrealistic and fucking asinine. It's not "pacifism" it's cowardice.

Prime Joshua was Caesar’s Legate before Lanius, he was not the same man he is here. Him being burned alive and dropped down a canyon changed him, both physically and spiritually.

@@littleaqua32 Prime Joshua is the version where he reconciles with his inner torment to the point where he is able to spare the life of the man who killed his family, for the sake of himself and the sorrows. He has not lost any bit of skill with his .45, but has learnt when to use it.

Prime Joshua is Van Buren's (I know it's semi canon but there's definetly a time between his execution and him joining the Dead Horses where he was completely mad against the Legion and the tribes that worked for them)

Joshua actually was stronger after Caesar's burned him.

I made lanius my little bitch. For Joshua, for God, for us all. His soul and body vaporized by my humble 12 gauge, the dinner bell

Nah cuz fr

​@@Prestongarveyoftheminutemen You basically just said "no, because yes."

Me too. My last name is actually Graham as well, and my mom wanted to name me Josh. Quite a coincidence for a character I would have loved with any name.

Hello There.

@@joshuagraham8782 OMG , come on, say it

@@joshuagraham8782 dude is a legend

@@joshuagraham8782 Evening.

"...this spirit would diminish the myth of the Burned Man in distant lands... a small price for the piece it brought to Joshua Graham"

Another thing too is with this ending his character arc comes full circle. He doesn't forgive Salt Upon Wounds but doesn't brutalize him either. People have done that with him and now he acts the same way towards his enemies

He is a strong good person. He is way better than what we currently hold as values

"To hate an enemy is to be at war in your heart, to forgive them is to be at peace" thanks dude, where did you get that ?

There is no genocide. The other White Legs who surrendered are spared and are kicked out of Zion.

Holy shit, that’s chilling

All the DLCs of FNV are actually pretty dark and depressing, even Old World Blues - which I personally the most fun to play. They all tell the lesson

@@Bergen98 whats the lesson for Old world blues in your opinion? For me I feel like the lesson is: Dont play god

@@hidan407 just typed up "fnv lessons of each dlc" and found this quote in the first link. "Whatever power you are given, whether it be intellect, political power or any other form, you must put it to good. When you lose sight of the greater good this power can go very bad, and you may not live up to your full potential."

@@hidan407I’m never a big fan of the “science gone too far!” trope since I find it pretty uninteresting (see the Institute), but I feel like part of it is that the brains in the Think Tank have lost sight of any purpose to their tests. They just want to fuck around with things like a playground, completely losing the plot of why they might execute an experiment

That does mentally fuck Joshua and Sorrows up, though.

@@crapposter8201 but for good reason. They need to realize that while yes, They're living in basically paradise compared to the rest of the world, They're gonna have to fiercely defend their families and land next time someone else tries to come and take it. Daniel's idea was to literally pussy out and just leave Zion. Which is pretty much heaven in the Wasteland and their home. Like fuck that. There's a REASON Joshua Graham was the most intimidating, strict, indestructible, unkillable, and wisest man to lead the Legion. And now the sorrows can follow in his guidance.

@ShadowOfDeath🥀 "unneccessary war with the White Legs" Bruh, they attacked first. The Fallout world is surrounded by war regardless, fleeing may have bought the Sorrows and Dead Horses some time to recover in peace, but they're still apart of the world and its problems whether they like it or not. All you'd be teaching them is to flee from any sort of conflict. Defense =/= aggressive butchery however.

@ShadowOfDeath🥀 Neither Joshua or Daniel are completely right. The White Legs need to be stopped, however dragging the Sorrows into the fight and slaughtering the enemy is wrong. The Bible does not oppose warfare or killing if you're the defender. Murder and waging offensive war is a sin, but that's not what Joshua does to stop the White Legs although he goes too far if you don't stop him. Although being peaceful is the best course of action, sometimes that isn't possible if the enemy gives you no choice. Even Daniel isn't a pacifist, he just doesn't want the Sorrows dragged into the fighting. Also, I doubt Joshua nor anyone else lives in "paradise" whether in Zion or elsewhere. Joshua suffers on a daily basis with this injuries and the world around him is still hostile, that's not paradise. Although he believes Zion to be holy and important, it's not because it's God's paradise but rather a monument to God's will and beauty. He views retreat from Zion as the same as letting beasts pollute holy ground, not that it destroys his "paradise" as he even admits that your home isn't a physical place but rather a place where you are welcome and belong.

for me this ending is the reason why i always chose to spare benny.

You're a genius

Add true police stores with the perk that expands effects of magazines and 10 luck

Yeah but they look bad

there's a mod for a canon couriers duster on nexus. It combines the courier duster and JG outfits into one. It looks very decent imo.

@@gpheonix1 link?

thats what you do when Joshua tells you to scram you best fucking scram

@@TheHarrisontemple Greeting, Dulgrim. Excellent profile pic selection!

Fast af boi

After he died he became omniscient

@WungusBill didnt his head blow up

@@Mannnnnnnn I mean Jeannie May’s head got exploded by Boone and she still narrated novac’s ending

perhaps it's his lost brother

The fact that Salt Upon Wounds calls the Couriour a "devil" is genuinely fucking disgusting. He has no goddamn right when he slaughtered countless innocents. His audacity for mercy never ceases to piss me off.

​@@WAcrobat19The ones who attain undeserved power, who dole out merciless atrocities against innocents, who brag and boast on their high towers of themselves and nothing else, shall beg for mercy the loudest when it is their turn.

The fact that he honestly asked for mercy just got me like 💀

Are you ok

based

kzfaq.info/get/bejne/q8CnrcVynpe9nqM.html

I know you wrote this a while ago, but I'm going through the exact same thing. I'm on the spectrum, so I was always victimized for being different, which made me extremely vengeful towards any form of oppression. After what I went through during Covid it got so bad that it started pushing my closest friends and family away, and generally causing problems that could have been avoided completely if I had just stayed calm. People usually tell me that they don't like getting angry, but the problem is that I sometimes actually like the feeling of going into a state of blind rage. It isn't going to be easy, but one thing that people keep telling me is to 'let it blow quietly away'. Once you manage to do this, life will be much easier.

I don’t think the fire will never stop or ever end. It’s righteous anger and fury at being betrayed and for being burned alive. Yet, at some point the fire needs to die down and for the thunderstorms to heal. For allowing yourself to forgive yourself for being venerable and, maybe in your mind, naive and foolish for daring to love someone that hurt you. And let that forest rebuild after the wildfire, to love yourself again and to, cautiously and wisely, love others again. Joshua talks about God’s love rejuvenating him. It isn’t and was never wrong for you to love others and its true people are terrible. Yet, there are others that will love you unconditionally and lovingly care for you. That fire will keep burning but that doesn’t mean it can’t be a warmth and heat for others to enjoy. Doesn’t mean you can’t use it productively to help others. I hope you are okay, alright, and healing ❤️‍🩹

I think that this is one of the main dilemmas of Honest Hearts. In order to help Joshua's tribe understand that violence is not the best way to achieve your goals, you have to sacrifice a part of yourself and supress your urges to stop the vindictive circle. On the other hand, you can help Joshua to fulfill the righteous revenge and execute Salt-Upon-Wounds for all his atrocities. Writing and delivery, paired with outstanding voice acting, make this choice feel real and impactful (just like in real life society there is no such option to make everyone happy simultaneously), and that's what make this game beautiful.

disagree, one could only think this way if they have a cavalier attitude towards war and violence. the story makes its point simply; you can't introduce murder and conflict to people and expect it to fade away, the things we do on an individual and communal level define us & the paths of our lives, there is such a thing as going too far.

Just like the Canaanites and Joshua in the Bible, what a great game, shame that Fallout 4 doesn’t get this close to this writing

@Alpha Dog Well not literally just like, I believe they took an inspiration from the book Joshua to make the character Joshua Graham as he is willing to annihilate the White Legs due to their cruelty, so the Canaanites were quite savage even they sacrificed their own sons burning them and other mad stuff.

@@danielaguilera9089 That’s a good name I approve

Bethesda bad >:(

I can never tell if Bethesda intentionally doesn't write like that, or if they don't know how.

@@gudboah4688 Well they do suck. Hard.

@@gudboah4688 Yes.

If I had to make a wild guess, it’s probably something along the lines of ‘the unchanging pay the price’, which would fit with Joshua’s story of learning to move on.

When he's thanking the courier, he's not doing it because you helped him murder a bunch of goobledidooks, but because you talked him down from killing in the name of vengence and stayed his hand, therefore saving his soul in a way

"The best thing we have to offer, is good news."

Joshua is referring to staying his vengeance at his lowest point in the story, thereby creating in him a new spirit and finally giving him peace. Joshua knows that he would have never been able to spare Salt Upon Wounds without the couriers intervention.

John Moses Browning is with thee 😇

My mistake was not putting everything into Speech :/

Too much mods because vanilla version doesnt do that atleast not in Xbox

That's a shame. This is my favorite mission in the whole game. This ending is just beautiful.

My friend had a bug that kept showing the notification for a part of Zion not being able to be accessed unless if you traveled with the Happy Trails Caravan. This kept happening even in the ending and in the best place: "The Happy Trails Caravan didn't get far in their journey"- [You cannot access this part of Zion Canyon until you travel with The Happy Trails Caravan]

If you're on PC use the Viva New Vegas mod guide. Shit works wonders.

he would have murdered salt upon wounds, just saying

Randall wouldn't have killed Salt. This ending is literally fulfilling what he wanted for the Sorrows.

This isn't a "pawn tribe". They're a ravaging group of mass murderers who kill all they come across.

I think that was the intentional flaw with his character. Joshua was a man turned humble yes, but he still contained this deep seeded merciless bloodlust that never left him even after getting burned. Although his tribe's love saved him, they weren't able to quell that rage within him. You are able to up call him out on his redirected rage even if they don't let you compare him to his previous self. In the end It's up to us to finally teach him when to show mercy, in which he's finally able to experience peace.

not really, in this ending the tribals and joshua also learn how to make peace and mercy.

What the shit is this about nothing getting better under the NCR? If you do the side quests, the ending describes almost everything getting better except for the taxes. Even Freeside starts getting better.

@@halosammy14 average ncr fan

@@vm_duc Do you have an actual argument?

@@halosammy14 why, you think i want to dEbAte? typical ncr profligate

@@vm_duc answred like a true champion

I would say new vegas has a theme of their is never a truly good ending nor a bad one as we all are fighting for the same coin in the name of another. Here the spare route is good for the Zion community (like Dead Horses and Sorrows) as it makes them the most merciful and it makes Joshua merciful and healed inside, he still is the militarist warrior at heart. So he has realized that the revenge path is what he desires and that it isn't the correct way and gives up on it. The route where you let Salt-Upon-Wounds die by your hand in battle implies that Joshua still heals as he no longer enjoys the brutality and he is no longer is cruel, but he has still got a drive for revenge but he has it under control. The only one where it is a negative impact is if you pop a cap in General Gobbledigook and result in Joshua lusting for revenge, genocide, and destruction. You decide essentially in these endings does Joshua: repent and forgive (peaceful Joshua), become a soldier doing his duty and accepting he must stay calm (close to what he was during honest hearts so I guess Warrior Joshua), or become the Legate of his past life again (Legate/Revenant Joshua). This impacts the world in several ways. In the case of peaceful Joshua Zion doesn't suffer more loses anymore but the White Legs get defeated by the 80s who take Salt Lake and the survivors escape. This potentially means they (White Legs) can reform in other tribes, be causing trouble by raiding in small bands, and the 80s now have more land which is bad. Warrior Joshua results in New Canaanites and Zion needing to fight of the remanent forces of the White Legs, but this time it is a offensive war and ambushes destroy what is left of the white legs and those that survive are killed off by the 80s. This means 80s might not have control of salt lake, white legs are gone and won't harm anyone anymore and won't reform, at the cost of maybe some Zion tribals and Canaanites. Legate Joshua results in the White legs slowly dying off in their retreat, and breaking up into more smaller bands. This means 80s might not have control of salt lake and now you got roving bands of tribals to deal with. So in summary the only path that reduces potential crime in the local regions is by killing off the White Legs resulting in the 80s having the least territory gain. Legate Joshua causes more potential crime, 80s still have less territory gain but at the cost of Joshua, and Joshua maybe leading a hyper militaristic force that can conquer the local region and terrify the local populations. Genocide and brutality will ensue. Peaceful Joshua destroys his symbol, but helps Joshua see the peace inside him and give up presumably on revenge, but he still performs it in the end but under the notion of defending his people. Now with the Burned Man symbol, if Joshua become the Legate Joshua, it means people will fear him and it will protect Zion and the Canaanites from potential threats while providing hope for Caesar's enemies and Terrify the living crap out of tribals and even Caesar based on the fact he is wasting men and resources on chasing Joshua, though he may send more due to the Symbol growing in strength, but it will spread further. The Legion may even become threatened as a whole by Joshua. Now Warrior Joshua still retains the symbol but it doesn't change so the enemies of Caesar may still have hope in a force that opposes Caesar, Tribals will avoid Zion and Canaan due to fear, and Caesar will waste resources chasing Joshua, but probably won't was he anymore as he is/was doing currently same with Legion. Peaceful Joshua essentially loses the power of the Burning Man Symbol meaning Zion may soon (aka years later) be attacked by tribals seeking the land and tribals may forget the Burned Man symbol and may rise in power. Caesar may even lessen his searching for Joshua if the symbol is forgotten so more of his resources and men can be sent into the Mojave. This means it be worse for the NCR, and New Vegas, and anyone who is an enemy of Caesar as it may make them lose hope. Overall all the points are still not concrete points so it may still have some interpretation to them, but I hope this analysis may help you see why the endings aren't exactly cookie cutter good and bad. Also Follows Chalk following his dreams may be good in the end for him as he may find enjoyment in life and purpose, and considering he is never seen again like the Vault Dweller in 1 he may start a new family or residence somewhere where he'd be happy. So who knows he might actually be happier. This whole dilemma parallels people in real life having to decide do they pursue their dreams or comfort, with some failing and some succeeding. Is it inherently wrong for one to chase their dreams, and risk all comfort and certainty? Is it truly bad for one to stay at home and live a peaceful, boring, life that is comfortable with a family who loves you? In the base game there is a quest with Alice Hostetler where you can tell her something similar with Speech checks so in the end she doesn't murder her mom and run, but can find happiness in life. Regarding Waking Cloud I think the whole coming to terms with her Husbands death is probably the best option, as I don't see much of a benefit for Waking Cloud, but the Sorrows may accept Joshua more and his militarism allowing them to be more skeptical, though it is a bit of a long shot.

Innocents is good for children. Not for sociality. Another tribe who has no innocent would just whip them out

They were too sheltered from reality, and besides, what fun is that? Adding drama and weight to your choices makes you feel the consequences. Like real life, things aren’t always clear cut and dry. There are winners, losers, and people just caught in the middle trying to make sense of it all

The only thing i hate is not being able to see joshua again after completion of honest hearts ahjcshocehlvpjsvupvsylcs

Actually,if you read the survivors journals, you find out that he WANTED them to fight and defend themselves, he also wanted them to enter his caves and get to his loot, but i guess he forgot to disarm the traps

don't do shaman like that you fool

Daniel is haunted because he himself is not at peace, he just conceals it, unlike Joshua, who lays his soul bare as a lesson and warning.

@@rustyshackleford1508 yeah I kinda like that with New Vegas in general because of how raw it is on certain subjects. Chatacters like Daniel and Veronica dont get good endings but rather are bitter sweet. Daniel in particular as you stated is not at peace because he is guilty over losing many tribes to the White Legs and blames himself for not saving them. He wants a perfect world where there is no violence and the Sorrows forever remain innocent but in Fallout the world is brutal and despite this ending where the Sorrows learn to defend themselves but still are not a violent tribe, it still bothers Daniel because no matter what it was never going to have his perfect outcome

Its not for the morality its for Joshua. Its so he can be at peace. Also making him fight is so its an honorable death.

I forget if Joshua or Caesar tells you, but he started as an interpreter. They say something like "interpreting led to giving orders. Giving orders led to leading in battle." So basically the analogy of the frog in boiling water: you don't realize how far gone you are until it's too late.

Romans 12 19. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.

Yes

Yes? All other endings are objectively bad for Joshua Graham’s character. This ending literally shows us that it was selfish want for revenge and anger that drove Joshua to be “The Burned Man” in his fight against Salt-Upon-Wounds. He was still just the shadow of the fascist warlord known as Malpais Legate. But when he put down the gun, he had already defeated his foes. He wouldn’t ever go to that place again. He had to come to terms with the fact him wanting his anger to be God’a anger was selfishness, not righteousness. He had to set aside the flames that burned him, anger, and embrace the flames that saved him, love. In one ending, the legend of the burned man increases and he becomes another Caesar. In another ending, at best he “appeases his demons”, but he cannot ever truly call himself redeemed. There is no point in looking up to Joshua Graham as a character if you do not believe this to be the best ending.

@@randomusernamedandrew7663Very well stated.