Good summary! Lol

No but if you already have animals capable of pulling equipment, I bought a complete set of horse drawn hay equipment from the 50s for 3k and am looking at 2k to get it all running in good condition you literally can't buy/fix a good condition tractor for that

@@wesbrackmanthercenthusiast4695good luck breaking a horse or ox to pull it gonna be waiting a few years for either we don’t do oxen animals anymore for a reason

@TankedFarms5151 currently working on that, got two draft mares and a colt from one the mares should be ready to go by late summer if I actually set to harness training they are already doing riding competition riding, it's me that won't be ready since I'm currently setting up a basket case of a sawmill and moving my primary barn to a better location plus have horse shows to help run and laser engrave the prizes for

@TankedFarms5151 funny enough talking to the folks who still use and work on equipment for draft power they are all in agreement and state in similar terms this same fact that I have saved to my notes from the book international no9 restoration and serviceing by linn r miller (((The horse-drawn sicklebar mower has only been in popular use since shortly after the US Civil War (1860s) earliest crude production models started to appear around 1845. Many refinements were made to the basic style of the "push-pull" frame came into being at the end of the. 20th century. The late model enclosed gear units began to appear in the 1920s "International" still made the HD mowers until after the end of World War 2. They would have continued long after that were it not for government programs to force the draft animals off the farms and replace them with the new tractors, a move seen to absorb the economic displacement which follows the dramatic end of war time economy. This was a period and rational, which gave us high powered chemical herbicides and pesticides as well. War it would seem continues to destroy long after it concludes the enclosed gear late model John deere case oliver David Bradley, and McCormick deering international mowers. I, (we) are so fond of had a Zenith, a popular manufacturer, and use that lasted just short of 25 years millions of farmers with millions of mowers built to have a serviceable life of a 100 plus years, all pushed into fence rows. I say it was far too short of a period I say we ought to still be using them and benefiting from their efficiency and practicality.))) The real reason this stuff isn't used anymore is probably because the powers at be wanted to be able to milk money out of us and now currently with the electrification of everything be capable of shutting down Political dissidents if they don't agree with you like they currently do in China

Right on

Solid advice for sure. I'm personally trying to figure out how to put 1,000 hours on my tractor to justify the purchase... lol

@@provisionhomesteadjust get a good deal on a cheaper used one and the numbers are in your favor. Or if you really need one for just heavy lifting it even makes since to save your back and make you 100x more productive with your time moving dirt etc..

We purchased 2 used ones, and I kept having to stop and fix them. I ended up selling both of them and getting a new Kubota L series. I have plenty to do around here on our 105 acres, but I still work an 8-5 right now. Otherwise, I would probably put 1000 hours on this thing, no problem.

Excellent mindset!

big is never better , that is why he says farmers are lonely , with all the tec we have today , i could milk 10k cows by my self . until i get hurt an need help for a few weeks . community is all that matters .

I think I take exception with "any". It would have been nice to have one at our last homestead but we could just borrow the neighbors. We just didn't have enough land to justify the purchase. There's also the consideration of the type of enterprise. If your intensive grazing 10 cows on 5 acres and running small mobile chicken shelters by hand, you really don't need one. It may be nice to have for winter feeding but you could always do square bales.

I used walk behind for a few years now have a tractor because the implements for tractors are way less expensive I wanted a stone burier for my bcs and the tractor one was half the price and twice the size

Most small scale chickens and orchard don’t need a tractor. Atv and truck are higher priority

@@redemptiverevelation Yeah,I guess if you dont harvest firewood,move anything heavy,garden or anything like that then,no you dont need a tractor. I cut my own firewood, have 35 chickens breed rabbits and quail. I also garden and think a tractor would be very helpful. Moving wood,gravel,tilling and even mowing wood be made much easier.

@@ciphercode2298 firewood: atv and truck and trailer over tractor any day. Gravel gets delivered once a year, we spread by hand or pay $100 to use the neighbors skid steer. No need for tractor for wood chips, chickens, orchard. Atv, truck, chainsaw, trailer, snow blower, generator, wood chipper, etc… but no need for a tractor. And if we need excavation, we borrow an excavator. We are saving tens of thousands and our tools more than do the job

Yes but there’s economics there too. Large construction companies don’t own much plant now. They’ve worked out it’s cheaper to hire the kit or pay a contractor when you need it. The reality is that most farms have kit that spends 11 months of the year in a shed.

@@hughmarcus1yeah ya have that kinda wrong the most expensive thing on a farm that get very little use but is also the most important thing on a farm is a combine gets used twice a year for about 100 hours each use

The context in which Joel is operating is not a massive monoculture where specialty equipment like a combine could be economic due to scale. The context of all this work is in the realm of regenerative AG, multi-speciation and diversification of enterprise. That's probably where the disconnect is.

A lot of extension offices have equipment you can borrow or rent so for some things it makes sense not to buy it. But not having a tractor at all? I think that’s a stretch. I really dislike the old 8n as a tractor, but they’re practically free. I have a Kubota with a loader on it and now that I’m pushing 60, it really helps with the heavy lifting. Like what are you doing your basic field management with? You just pay someone else to bush hog? Most farmers I know don’t have time to do their own work. Buying their time and playing off their neighborliness is just exploitive.

@@provisionhomestead monoculture farming doesn’t exist in America unless you are looking at permaculture things like orchids you could say that’s monoculture but American farming doesn’t mono crop.

I had just bought a tractor 6 months before sitting there recording this and was definitely sweating a bit...

Solid advice! Talk to someone who is unbiased and see if it still sounds good trying to pitch it to them. Well, your wife may actually be a little biased in the direction of less new equipment if she's anything like mine.

That is very wise.

My rule of thumb is 500 hours and a purchased tractor needs 650 hours and a new tractor needs 1000.

I think they are awesome for your market gardens. Not sure what Joel would say but I think the principle he shares about knowing your numbers for your specific situation still rings true.

Also wear and tear on your body, it's cheaper to replace a hydraulic cylinder than it is to replace a knee.

Thirdly, an IRS depreciation schedule is a pretty poor place to start. After 10 years that tractor is still worth at least half it's original value, even if you put 10k hours on it.

He is not sayingnever buy a tractor, he is saying that people need to know the numbers before making the purchase.

I agree and I think Joel would agree too. Not all of us are lucky to have a nice neighbor who will come over to our property and do tractor work for $100. However, at our Florida homestead, that was the case. I gave the neighbors across the street eggs in exchange for using the tractor every now and then.

In Indiana 2.5 tons of hay per acre... average. Small square 50 pounds... what am I missing. That is a lot of acres. Did he say the equivalent to 30,000 small bales a year. Approx. 100 bales per acre. In Indiana. Even if you do three cuttings and your land does double the tonnage of average output. What am I missing? You would need 50 acres for 30000 bales.

Thanks for the comment! Agreed. Making 20,000 bales sounds amazing until that's all you do the whole year. Joel has a pretty established team at this point so he can put out those numbers. The rest of us need to think in terms of our personal capacity.

I agree if it makes you exponentially more productive per hour even if you don’t value your time work/hr or have to pay for extra help.

It makes the total difference.

That he was lonely and liked to chew tobacco?

Sounds amazing but also very daunting. But guess who could keep on going if everything hits the fan...

Wheat farming before tractors needed another quarter to a third of the area under wheat to grow feed for the horses. Might be just about the same proportional cost of fuel now but the result is much more food and much less labour. In a Societal breakdown people will come and eat your horses.

Very true but people now days are conflating actual farming and some homestead on 5 acres, you can use drafts one you 100% can not

I'm no homesteader, I rent all the 70 acres of land I use. But I grew up poor farming and am mechanically inclined, will buy a basket case for scrap price and get it running. I have draft horses and they are my primary source of motive power. I would not advise people to run out and spend good money on horses and the necessary harness and machinery unless you have what it takes to make it all work together. It becomes your whole life. I can farm for cheap using a hybrid model using "junk" from the past 120 years because it is what I have always done. My channel details some of the horse work I do farming and logging. Keeping a team just for sleigh rides or wagon rides is a poor investment, same as with a tractor, you need to be working them all year round. My big tractor is a Farmall 826 bought from scrap and it is only used for jobs needing the HP. Yes it sits all winter, but the value there is cheaper than purchasing a gigantic motorized forecart, or paying a custom operator who shows up the day after your hay got rained on to round bale it. I stopped paying custom operators 20 years ago due to no-shows as storm clouds unleashed their fury on my hay and grain.

I bought a complete set of horse drawn hay equipment and I like the folks/ equipment so much that I'm trying to start a horse drawn equipment shop for my local Amish communitys and friends in the horse shows

What figures are using come up with these random numbers.

😆

Now I can't unsee it... 🤣

The answer was an easy 'no' for us at first. We didn't have enough land or scale. It would have been nice, for sure but definitely not worth it.

It may have be him but probably more along the lines of "selling hay." I'm not sure he sells his hay but stockpiles it for the winter. So in his analogy, he's saving himself the cost of buying hay by producing it himself for around .50 a bale.

Balancing act for sure. I think that's why he depreciates over 10 years. To be honest, 10 years is too long in my mind but I guess that's playing the long game.

Hey! We don't use those profanities on this channel... lol

I'm with you on tractors being fun. I would go as far as so to say "therapeutic"! However, Joel is talking about running a successful farm business, and unfortunately, the longevity of your operation is all about the money in a lot of cases.

@@provisionhomestead fair enough. 👍

Agreed! Don't think he was saying it is worthless, just depreciating. PS, I love your videos and am a big fan of your channel!

@@provisionhomestead thanks for the kind words. His financial calculations assume no remaining value. His entire point is based on this. Residual value of the tractor renders his point invalid.

He’s depreciating it like it’s a line item on a spreadsheet. Not uncommon for businesses to do. With that being said, I’m 100% on your side on this one. Keep it nice for 10 years and you’re going to recoup 60-70% of your purchase price and be far more efficient in your day to day.

Agreed, he's not saying it has 0 value, he's just depreciating the asset in the books. I bought a 52 8n for $1500, spent $200 to convert it to 12v and give it a full tune up. Used it for 6 months and then sold it for $2200. Rumor has it, the 8n originally sold for $500. Of course, the dollar was worth more back then.

Sorry but value does and will not go up. The price might. But price is not value.

@@Ironrodpower true in general, but there are exceptions among classic era tractors which go up in value even when accounted for inflation. I know a salesman here in eastern Europe that is sending old Fendts back to Germany as their prices skyrocketed there.

Purchased a brand new Kubota for 24k 0% for the life of the loan with attachments in 2020, it is now 2024 with 400hours and worth the same 24k. Make smart investments, don't listen to people as if they are God. It's just an opinion.

Your not alone! I really admire my Amish neighbors. Boy do they work hard!

He actually mentions his fancy hay tractor near the end of the video. Don't think you guys are too far off.

I hear you and tried getting some older tractors for cash when we first moved here. I ended up spending more time fixing them and couldn't find a good mechanic in the area... Didn't help that I was sold a Ford 4,000 which was really a Ford Industrial repainted blue so my repair manual was hit or miss. Lol

Right his logic makes no sense as a farmer you don’t get rid of a tractor if it’s working and doesn’t cost more to fix than it is worth. So by saying that I mean if I buy a tractor and use it I’m never getting rid of it until either the tractor shits out or I get big enough to upgrade and still probably get rid of the original one

Depends on the enterprise. We were so small starting up that we could get by with just borrowing a tractor. Today, there's no way I could get by without it.

@@provisionhomestead I own 8 acres and work the land, I bought an old bobcat 40170 and it’s the best thing I could invest my money hands down. Now, I know majority of people can’t do or justify that, but a small loader is a huge health improvement for everyone, especially when getting old/older

My favorite part. I'm sure alot of us just stopped the video right there. Lol

I need to talk to your tax guy! How do I make my tractor free?????

Excellent perspective!

I think that was the point he was trying to make. He puts the disclaimer at the beginning to not get worked up over the numbers but consider the principle... but of course, alot of people are getting worked up over the numbers.

😆

Or 3 hours a day, 6 days a week. Or if you have an additional farm hand, 1.5 hours per person for 6 days a week. It is ALOT of use in a single year but I think that's the shock factor he was after.

I was there with him in person and he seemed great. I believe he is 67, and this clip was at the end of a 2 hour talk.

You don't know who Joel Salatin is, do you?

I've never seen one of those before! Looks amazing!

@@provisionhomestead Many diary farm's here in Germany use one as replacement, for a Loader/Telehandler and a hay making tractor. Its implement rated pulling force is around 32t(metric). It cant replace expensive pulling tractors. For seeding applications it lacks an iso bus+RTK... system, so a 3rd party iso bus+RTK... system can be added. It is possible to get more front hydraulic cycles as an option. Engine is now a 170ps Deutz, used to be a Chinese one,- years back.