Kyudo: the Director's cut

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Kyudo: the Director's cut

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17 жыл бұрын

Welcome to one of the most beautiful and spiritual of Japanese martial arts-Kyudo or Japanese Archery. This is were martial arts and Zen most interestingly intersect. See for yourself why people spend decades trying to "polish the mind".

Пікірлер: 106

@thebeauhooligan 12 жыл бұрын

I've been a western archer for over 40 years. Injury and surgery made me lay down the bow about 8 years ago. I have taken it up again, using Kyudo philosophy, and have been doing well. Zen is very much a part of my archery, and is perfectly cited in this video with the line: "The ultimate goal of Kyudo is to polish the mind." I wish there was a Kyudo sensei within a hundred miles of my home. Every archer should see this video.

@djemps7983 13 жыл бұрын

Speaking of which, my dad can literally sit motionless for hours on end while suspended 15 feet in the air on a tiny tree stand seat, waiting patiently for a deer to wander within 20 yards of him. Then he has to methodically and silently knock the arrow on the bow string, slowly raise the bow to his ear, draw, and then sometimes wait at full draw for almost a minute until the deer quarters away and exposes its vitals. He's doing the same thing as this Kyudo master, but still hits the target!

@TheGhostOperative 12 жыл бұрын

If you are ire, you are high on ganja and preferably listening to reggae music with your loved ones in the commune of nature, the temple of peace and love.

@kyudoken 14 жыл бұрын

There is in this an element of getting the cart before the horse. Kyudo origins emphasise ceremonial Ogasawara ryu and practical Heki ryu. Kyudo is in the context of Japanese culture using archery tools that evolved within Japan. The performance follows a breathing pattern similar to meditation breathing but it is not derived from meditative or Zen practice. The overtly meditative side has been exaggerated since the Meji restoration and with the influence of Herrigel.

@fightjapanrc 16 жыл бұрын

People have argued that Kyudo is a type of meditation- a way of cleansing the mind. A German scholar claimed Kyudo was connected to Zen, others disagree. A famous Japanese Kyudo sensei made statements that were very similar to Zen and has now moved to the US and is affiliated with Tibetan Buddhism.

@kyudoken 14 жыл бұрын

Kyudo requires a quiet mind and harmonised body for accuracy and for the beauty of the 'ritual'. Accuracy comes instinctively as in English longbow archery rather than by aiming . This is achieved through personal discipline and through following consistent form known as Hassetsu which is the Kyudo equivalent of Kihon or Kata. Many arts that require years of steady dedication to master can be used for meditation and improving oneself. In Judging Kyudo only 20 % is scored on the target.

@walkingbear56 16 жыл бұрын

I don't think I have ever heard it put in such a beautiful and "well aimed way". Teaching art to teenagers, practicing archery, and following a "spiritual" path... it is funny how they all seem to use the same principals.

@dokuroc 15 жыл бұрын

probably a costume drawn from older times where in war this war can argubly help either shot faster with out the need to take another arrow from the quiver or maybe u can use it when someone get close to the archer this arrow will go for him.

@Aikidopoi 16 жыл бұрын

My Sensei is looking to build a new Aikido dojo and wants to include a Kyudo dojo as well. That would be amazing.

@fightjapanrc 16 жыл бұрын

Thanks for this info. It has certainly elevated the debate. Thanks

@Filthylosopher 13 жыл бұрын

@Aenthropi When you put it that way, I can't help but agree. You're completely right about that. However I did some reading about Kyudo and came out with an answer to this: "seisha seichū". It's a principle that means: "correct shooting is correct hitting". If you perfect the form and the mind, you'll shoot well - I guess that's what Kyudo is about, not simply meditation. Unfortunately, the way it was put in the video is prone to misunderstanding... Thanks for the reply!

@goraisan 17 жыл бұрын

Very interesting!!

@kwgt 14 жыл бұрын

たしか、だいぶ昔に全日本選手権で優勝したほどのお方だそうです。この年齢になっても弓が引けるって素晴らしいことですよね。

@Devilock79 14 жыл бұрын

@HekiBerlin Tai Chi is also a martial art yet millions of people practice it every day simply for the physical and mental benefits. Practical Tai Chi can be lethal though. Kyudo is no different. I'm sure that when the Japanese still used the bow as a weapon, Kyudo was not thought of as it is now. Archery can be especially useful for sharpening the mind as it requires much more concentration than many other martial arts.

@CrowdControlFTW 14 жыл бұрын

I'd really like to see any of these guys actually hit the target more than once every hundred years or so...

@NewEnglandBudo 17 жыл бұрын

Very good!

@t3t5uj1 13 жыл бұрын

Wow 0_0, the traditional kyudo (archery). the bow made from bamboo without stabilizer and dot sight. but now many new generation for archery. with bow made from carbon (recurve and compound) with using stabilizer and dot sight for make each shoot very accurate ^_^ with max range 90m in turnament

@djemps7983 13 жыл бұрын

@1942STALKER Nope. My father is a Master Bow Hunting Instructor for the state of New York. People still hunt with a bow and arrow all over America, not to mention plenty of other countries around the world.

@Zennuts1 16 жыл бұрын

Yes...That reply sounds much better.

@djemps7983 13 жыл бұрын

@chilismuggler What is the use of hitting a target with a bow? Have you ever heard of bow hunting? It requires intense concentration to be able to hit the small vital area of a white tail deer from twenty yards. Bow hunting also requires amazing patience; getting up before dawn, waiting all day and into the evening before possibly seeing a deer at close enough range, and then the additional patience of waiting until the perfect moment when the deer is in the right position before shooting.

@fightjapanrc 17 жыл бұрын

Yamada argues Kyudo is considered a physical exercise. I kind of doubt people put on formal kimonos to do physical excercise. Kyudo is a form of ritual. A ritual I believe based on Buddhist and Shinto idea. This is why they have shrines in their dojo and say prayers to the shrine. this beyond the token rituals one sees commonly in Karate dojos.

@Raphneckone 17 жыл бұрын

Agreed. Still, the article probably gives you much more valuable and authentic information than Herrigel does.

@TheEnthe0s 12 жыл бұрын

"All conditioned phenomena Are like dreams, illusions, bubbles, or shadows; Like drops of dew, or flashes of lightning; Thusly should they be contemplated. "

@rgregg6 12 жыл бұрын

@PQVidya I respect your observations. In Kyudo the entire process beginning with attitude is important, but not dependent on muscular strength of the practitioner. Physical position of the body through all stages of the kata are required. The draw is not so much from the middle as it is a well executed, balanced set of motions that situate the kyudoka. With correct posture and technique, one can come to draw in excess of 33 kg (66 lbs), as I have seen. That is with little effort.

@Raphneckone 17 жыл бұрын

If you wanna know more on the topic, I highly recommend Yamada Shoji´s article "The Myth of Zen in the Art of Archery". Go google for it.

@Tooboolar 17 жыл бұрын

Yes, some dojos have a shrine, others don't. You don't need a shrine to shoot an arrow. It has nothing to do with kyudo. It is true that you do not necessarily need a Dan-graduation to be a good archer. However, what I've seen so far from Zenko leads me to believe that it is a mixture of religious mumbo with a tiny bit of kyudo. An often found pattern in the budo world. Water down a budo art and mix it with some asian mysticism and sheep will find lots of sheepish followers, with money.

@DrStoooopid 13 жыл бұрын

@Djemps you've obviously never tried to fire a Japanese longbow. It's an incredibly difficult weapon to master, there are no cams and cables to do the work for you.

@lovepeacebliss 15 жыл бұрын

Kyudo is sooo bad ass

@Motownbrother 12 жыл бұрын

@fightjapanrc Yes you are. I started Kyudo a few weeks ago, and yes it is very very very orthodox. More so than judo.

@Raphneckone 17 жыл бұрын

The spititual aspect was there before, but the zen-kyodo connection was made up by Herrigel (and indeed readily accepted by the Japanese). The guy didn´t know any Japanese and was in the country looking for zen. So it´s no wonder that he misunderstood one or the other thing...

@Raphneckone 17 жыл бұрын

Nope. Yamada argues that the forerunner of kyudo, kyujutsu, was a physical exercise done for enjoyment. This, however, changed with Herrigel´s teacher, Awa. Read the whole article ;-)

@djemps7983 13 жыл бұрын

@GameSteph LOL!! He obviously didn't study at the Dojo featured in THIS film! ... Deadliest Warrior... Thanks for the laugh Steph!

@fightjapanrc 17 жыл бұрын

The articles bags on Herrigel it does not really conduct any kind of symbolic analysis of Kyudo ideas or ritual or discuss their origins. He does however admit that that Kyudo has Zen influence. P.27 I am not so interested in his feeling about Herrigel. He was just grinding some tedious academic axe. Yes, Herrigel romanticized Japan. Yes, Herrigel was strongly influenced by Suzuki and was looking for Zen.

@arkangelsklucifer 6 жыл бұрын

how much punishment can a blind kyudo archer receives for hitting the target?

@Swordman0 12 жыл бұрын

Without disrespecting any martial arts, kyudokas deserve respect. Looks to me that takes too much patience, even more than kendo. Or maybe thats my thought because i see kendo more dinamic than kyudo?

@fightjapanrc 17 жыл бұрын

In Japan "spirituality" tends to come from either Shinto sources or Buddhist one's. This seems very much the latter (although Kyudo is used in Shinto rituals).

@fightjapanrc 14 жыл бұрын

@sebthrace This sounds about rite. While the the ceremony was Zen the shrines were shinto. Good points.

@youtubister 13 жыл бұрын

2:37 is that another arrow he is holding in his right hand?

@djemps7983 14 жыл бұрын

@fightjapanrc Well I certainly don't ascribe to the teachings of Zen Buddhism, but I think I understand it enough to grasp the fact that living Zen through a skill or art requires a certain level of perfection or expertise. You don't see people spilling boiling water all over the table when they perform a Zen tea ceremony?

@fightjapanrc 17 жыл бұрын

Many Japanese aristocratic activities were influenced by Buddhism. Clearly concepts of "No Mind", the positive value of "hopelessness", eliminating self and ego, the inherent perfection that must be discovered after long and ardous effort (and some luck)and the process of eliminating obstacles in Kyudo are highly likely to come from Buddhism and probably Zen. I am not a scholar on the subject but it does not seem like that far a reach.

@uexplorer 12 жыл бұрын

@Djemps And when we drive a car the zen way is to ignore traffic signs, lane markers and right of way. It really does not matter where the car goes...haha. Just go with the flow and kill the first unsuspecting granny crossing the road or maybe nudge a few cars off a cliff. In zen, it really does not matter whether you stick to your lane or not :) In fact if you have too few accidents they punish you by raising your insurance lol.

12 жыл бұрын

It is the western mind that have to receive information about eastern mindset. Perhaps it is more likely to be open to it if, during the presentation, the receiver find something familiar.

@pvsampson 13 жыл бұрын

One would think that after 50 yrs of practice,one would be able to hit the target.I have been shooting bows for over 33yrs and I have found my own rituals and find myself in a state of becoming one with the arrow at times.Kyudo is pretty to watch and I respect the devotion,but I feel the ancient Samurai,originally mounted archers,would be appalled that these modern practitioners cannot hit their mark.Good shooting form results in good shooting,and I do not see any of this here

@fightjapanrc 17 жыл бұрын

I would have to blame more than Herrigel. He's hardly the first or the last to talk about kyudo as a form of meditation designed to achieve "no mind". I am assuming the concept of "no mind" and the idea of eliminating separation are probably connected to Zen or some other related form of Bhuddhism.

@djemps7983 13 жыл бұрын

@NagoyaJoe2002 I know that not a single person in this video hit the target at the other end of the archery range.

@thomasyamaguchi6434 9 жыл бұрын

Cool

@themastermason1 11 жыл бұрын

I wonder if there any groups in Japan that practice the mounted form of Kyudo.

@coredor 13 жыл бұрын

@yinyangthang Only odd in that the choice to juxtapose western music with asian imagery is rare, but its narrow minded to believe that only the shakuhachi is suitable for this. Music is music.

@GameSteph 13 жыл бұрын

@Djemps are you kidding me? did you see that samurai guy on the deadliest warrior he fucking shot both the targets eyes out with this art.

@fightjapanrc 16 жыл бұрын

Thanks. I could not argue to vigorously because I am not up on the scholarship. But Kyudo clearly has Shinto influence and I suspect more importantly Buddhist. The concept of "no mind" and the "pointlessness" seem to be Buddhist. Herrigel claimed Zen, I don't know enough about the various types of Japanese Buddhism to add or detract from his statement.

@fightjapanrc 15 жыл бұрын

Please choose something you feel is better. Then we could compare.

@arumatai 13 жыл бұрын

@fightjapanrc so you can judge if someone has attained enlightment ?

@nomad1545 12 жыл бұрын

They wouldn't use these techniques in battle, would they? You need to be fast and accurate the win battles, so I assume this would be just a way to pratice and achive that mental discipline.

@the3dguy2 13 жыл бұрын

@Djemps any one can hit a target with a little bit of practice. thats not the goal here. the goal is to empty the mind and archery is a 'way' to achieve that. thats all.

@1942STALKER 13 жыл бұрын

@Djemps ....... does that even still exist i thought we all use guns by now !?

@Filthylosopher 13 жыл бұрын

@Aenthropi I understand your line of thought, but I must disagree. Gendai Budo has a different approach to "war" than Kobudo. Kyudo (rather than Kyuba-jutsu) is a modern japanese martial art, so it would be too harsh to say it's meant for killing. If you insist that what is shown in this video is not a martial art, you should disregard Judo and Shotokan Karate as martial arts as well - since many practicioners don't use these arts to go to war, but as means of refining their spirit. See ya!

@alexheart7832 8 жыл бұрын

It's very beautiful to look at, and certainly there's a few things I can take away from to enhance my recurve form, but we train to hit targets. We train for speed and accuracy, this seems to emphasize an intangible that I can't wrap my mind around. I'm lost in the mechanics of kyudo though, is that a thumb draw?

@fightjapanrc 14 жыл бұрын

@yinyangthang Today I appear to be surrounded by a love of orthodoxy. Any departure from cliche seems to raise ire.

@1942STALKER 13 жыл бұрын

it's hard to hit small targets with a yew bow

@Anubis3200 13 жыл бұрын

What's the point of getting a target when you are not even aiming?

@yinyangthang 14 жыл бұрын

@fightjapanrc Hmm, your response is obtuse...I could interpret it as a refute of my stated opinion, or as an acknowledged agreement with same. I was simply implying that traditional Japanese music would be much more effective than Western Classical music at conveying the serene, meditative, "essence" of Kyudo. What better instrument than Shakuhachi for that purpose? I think backing the video with Western Classical music is actually cliche in this instance. Otherwise a lovely, informative vid.

@fightjapanrc 17 жыл бұрын

I assume you have never seen a shrine in a dojo or seen anyone pray to one? Is your school in Japan? Because I saw it regularly. The arrow has important ideas in both Shinto and Buddhism so I would to strongly disagree with your prosition. BTW ritual motions serve purposes and the Kyudo of Shibata sensei is now aligned with Tibetan Budhhism in America.

@TheGhostOperative 12 жыл бұрын

yea u have to turn into super saiyan 4.

@Tooboolar 17 жыл бұрын

It is true that Shintoism uses bow and arrow for some rituals of cleansing and so, but that has nothing to do with kyudo. That's shinto. Sumo wrestling uses a bow too, got nothing to do with kyudo either.

@fightjapanrc 14 жыл бұрын

@HekiBerlin You read one article on the subject and you are now an expert? God, why did I waste all those years in graduate school if any jackass who reads an article is an instant expert.

@fightjapanrc 17 жыл бұрын

In the show above there was a very large shinto shrine occuplying one entire side of the room yet you claim there is no relationship to Kyudo and Shinto? Is your dojo in Japan? Secondly whether a branch of Kyudo has the bureaucratic seal of approval from ankf has little to do with its essence.

@trolltrumman 13 жыл бұрын

0:56 Fujishima sensei?

@Sarthex 13 жыл бұрын

@fightjapanrc anyone doing something he loves doing finds "enlightment". no need to tell others what to do, mate ;)

@yocam420 12 жыл бұрын

an arrow to the knee.

@Tooboolar 17 жыл бұрын

That's right, there is nothing ritualistic about kyudo. It is about shooting an arrow with a bow. Everything else is not necessary. If you are implying that the movements are ritualistic then again you are wrong. Every movement has a technical background, starting with the setting of the feet and ending with zanshin. I've been shooting 10000s of arrows and have never encountered something cosmological. It's concentration and self-discipline.

@Tooboolar 17 жыл бұрын

The organisation of Shibata is not aligned with the All Nippon Kyudo Federation. What they are doing is not accepted as official kyudo. If a motion has a purpose it cannot be ritualistic, although it may have a meaning to someone. That is not the case with kyudo, every movement has a special practical purpose.

@Zennuts1 16 жыл бұрын

Hitting the target "not important"? I assumed when you hit the target, you're actually hitting your ego self. If you miss, then your controlled posture of selflessness wasn't enough. For what use is the posture if its not going to do it's own inherited goal? The goal of hitting the target has to be there for the sake of no goal. If the goal of hitting the target isn't important, then the controlled posture that strives for that goal isn't neither.

@Tooboolar 17 жыл бұрын

I don't know why there's so much emphasis on "spirituality" in budo. It seems to me these comments mostly come from those who do not practice these arts. Kyudo needs concentration and self-discipline, but moreso a lot of training and plain muscle-work.

@Tooboolar 17 жыл бұрын

I don't really get what you are trying to say. The ANKF is not a religious group, they are teaching archery. If some people follow their personal beliefs like Shinto or Buddhism, that's fine, but has nothing to with kyudo.

@MrSignified 11 жыл бұрын

I don't understand. Awa Kenzo was once capable of hyappatsu hyakuchu, hitting the mark almost 100 times out of 100. Now kyudo teaches students that hitting the target doesn't matter? Can't these people perfect their every movement, release all thought, etc., and still obtain hyappatsu hyakuchu!? (IE 2:24 - what's up with that?)

@Tooboolar 17 жыл бұрын

Whenever I hear someone talking about Zen or spirituality in context with some budo art, my alarm bells go off. Most of these people misunderstand real mastery with some kind of quasi-religion. Meditating is still better than just sitting around doing nothing.

13 жыл бұрын

@Djemps You are not able or ready to understand what is presented in this video. Your chance is exactly that you obviously cannot accept this fact, thus having the possibility to gather, in time, information and wisdom. In fact, what you don't understand -and you are not even able to realize it yet-, and what you should keep trying to understand, is your own self. Ganbatte kudasai!

@fightjapanrc 14 жыл бұрын

@earthlyinfodotcom True Zen? So you have attained enlightment....?

@likes2snipe 16 жыл бұрын

okay maybe whoever wrote the narration should have stated it as the act of hitting the target is not important AS the art itself. I don't think he means "hitting the target is not important"

@user-qq4qm3ts6d 4 жыл бұрын

斉藤先生ではありませんか？

@yinyangthang 14 жыл бұрын

Very odd ti=o have Western classical music in the background throughout the narration--shakuhachi would have been more appropriate and informative, yes?

@fightjapanrc 14 жыл бұрын

My apologies.

@tonmoyahmed8405 12 жыл бұрын

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@fightjapanrc 14 жыл бұрын

@Djemps I guess Zen is not for you!

@amrak-8401 6 жыл бұрын

If you attend any archery groups, from recurve bows, olympic recurve bows, bare bows, compound bows, long bow and etc. you will find that they very helpful, and eager to help you improve your archery. But my experience with Kyudo is a total opposite, from the outside looking in it’s fascinating and it seems to be a great way to learn and focus or polish your mind like they say. But find some Kyudo groups to be snobs, arrogant, and they think they are better than the rest of the archery community.

@michaelk8414 6 жыл бұрын

I hear you on the arrogance thing. sorry you ran into this. one of the difficulties in learning Kyudo if you're an accomplished archer in other forms is letting go of much of what you've learned in these other forms. speaking from personal experience here. there are similarities of course. on the surface we are just shooting sticks at little pieces of paper albeit some very high tech sticks at times. carbon! the focus and the process of learning is quite different though. there are cultural differences in the purpose and the process. we are taught that the individual must conform to Kyudo, Kyudo shouldn't be made to conform to you. this may be some of the rigidity you ran into. there's a reason it's such a niche practice. sometimes it's a challenge for people to submit to this. if you really want to immerse yourself it really is a form of budo and you must approach it as such.

@Tom666999888 14 жыл бұрын

the low bow ist to long ...........

@TheEnthe0s 12 жыл бұрын

As much as I agree with your statement Earthlyinfodotcom, you are contradicting yourself when you say one way isn't necessarily better than the other and the same time claim others are doing it wrong when pointing out wrongness.. And this is only me pointing out what I feel is wrong with that statement again, so there is the competitional loop of human dynamics oh-so difficult to zoom out from.. :P

@mirandarandall7305 12 жыл бұрын

don't go bow hunting o god......

@fightjapanrc 17 жыл бұрын

If you so hate "mumbo jumbo" why don't you buy a regular bow and shoot it in your back yard at a tree stump wearing shorts and t-shirt. That would be truly just shooting an arrow....

@ineedmorenaruto 15 жыл бұрын

japanese instruments would have been nice, but better i dunno

@Tooboolar 17 жыл бұрын

I strongly oppose this view on kyudo, although many people seem to share your view. I use a simple keikogi for 99% of my training and only put on a kimono for fun or show. There's nothing ritualistic about it. I don't care about Buddhism or Shintoism either and I do not see them in the simple act of archery either. Remove all the mumbo-jumbo and what is left is just shooting an arrow. And that's how it should be.

@djemps7983 13 жыл бұрын

@boehmtj A Zen master doesn't 'give a shit'? It seems that you know less about Zen than even I do.

@TheEnthe0s 12 жыл бұрын

So you see enlightenment as something trainable and not omni-present? It's just an inaccurate reduction of the human mind about the nature of the human mind; and can mean so many different things in so many different contexts.. There is no false zen unless you define it as such. Observation is zen.

@Tooboolar 17 жыл бұрын

Zen and kyudo have not much in common. Blame Herrigel.

@fightjapanrc 14 жыл бұрын

@bullmeecham Why don't you get a girlfriend if you need attention. You can have pointless arguments with her. Good luck

@fightjapanrc 17 жыл бұрын

There is nothing ritualistic about Kyudo? Are you joking?!!! It is more ritualistic than Catholic High Mass in the Vatican. You not knowing about something hardly proves it doesn't exist. It is not mumbo jumbo. It is Japanese cosmological thought. Getting rid of the "mumbo jumbo" is like being Christian but ignoring the skinny guy on the cross!!!

@bushin64 13 жыл бұрын

@Djemps I realize that you are not "in the know" about these things. But your statement is very naive. The product of a very "westernized" mind set.

@algeb5316 12 жыл бұрын

Hehe zen is enlightenment? silly person, zen has nothing to do with enlightenment. Nothing is enlightenment its a complete and total release of all suffering and of all desires and thoughts, therefor zen can never be enlightenment :P. Even after years perhaps a lifetime of practice a person has to learn how to let go of letting go in order to achieve enlightenment! This archery stuff is cool but i think i would rather try Fung Fu or Tai Chi before i tried this.

@fightjapanrc 16 жыл бұрын

Maybe you should not try so hard....