2024 ThePrime Svelte?

ThePrimeVues he doesn't React

ThePrimeVuesSvelteVideosAndHasAngularOpinionsOnThem

Sus 😮

​@@mauro--1521😂

Javascript. one of the few languages in history where you need 2 types of comparisons, in case you accidentally compare "1" with 1 and getting true when it shoudl be false.

eqv? and equal? Is the only distinction required.

@@MrAntice Don't ever ask a Lisper about eq, eql, equal and equalp.

​@@MrAntice just don't use ==, bro

@@majorhumbert676 That's what I always say too when anyone asks why there are only ==='s in my code.

React kiddies attack and "correct" everyone who dares to mislabel their precious. They dont care that React is the only "library" in history that is fullstack, they dont care that Vue is a framework being a React closest alternative. If tomorrow Meta acknowledges its a framework the same kiddies will instantly change their minds, accordingly.

@@IvanKleshnin Agreed, such sheep culture. Can't think for themselves

React Devs has no brain they are connected in one network

Yeah, because both are libraries 🫣

@@IvanKleshnin I use React at work and I can care less about what it is labelled as. It's a tool to do a job. If you're surrounding yourself with people--online or otherwise--that care about this, then you should find better company.

This is the problem with weak leadership.

To many cooks, resistance and to much planning without working on a minimal viable product.

​@@joegaffney8006yeah true, whenever I'm in charge of a codebase I always go with "let's just build some shits and see what'll happen."

@@cariyaputta personally I think you can do allot of the planning building a mvp or prototype and this can also help convince people.

I agree. They need to change the way their team work. Their CTO should be the one that leads the crew, yet I don't see any of his action to contribute into the project. All I can see is he's creating unnecessary tension between team members, he doesn't even know who's the expert of the project and let some .NET devs involved with the project flow. I feel sorry for the author tbh

Right? I can't count amount of times where people asked me to install axios (before showing them how to write simple fetch couple of minutes later) Even making tiny good abstraction around fetch() takes like 5 minutes to write, so it's extremely weird that I had to justify my decision of not installing yet another library that gives 90% of overhead and 10% of actual simplification of the problem

I've also noticed way more resistance to writing our own code over using a library. I think it comes down to liability, if something breaks you can blame the library. If you roll your own solution and it breaks it's on you. I catch a lot of flack for being the "minimize new dependencies" guy.

@@DEVDerr your example could be quickly invalid while working with others, if the thing is simple and straight forward. then go ahead, do the fetch(), when you need a consistent implementation for the entire project with typescript support, error handling format. Either you single handed the entire fetch abstraction structure so everyone was enforced by your choice, or just use axios and called it a day. I once have project that went with your fetch approach, it's a little nightmare to handle, because the fetch handling structure slowly changed over time by different devs, so many inconsistency and api handling, guess what, it's a worse reimplementation of axios abstraction. I think axios is not a good example here as the lib itself has some history context. The more appropriate example I think it's installed some helper libs (hook libs or lodash) and only use one of them for the entire project, and that part of code is only few lines inside the original lib, which you can just directly copy and paste. Even worse, they realized the helper functions they used didn't fit their needs, instead of creating the own one. They create some weird abstractions or fixes on top of that wrong choice of functions. Then the nightmare starts. I also felt this is one of the core issues of the article inside the video failed to mentioned. The amount of dependency is bizarre. I can feel the codebase has tons of reimplementation on top of the wrong choice, that would justify the tons of deps.

sometimes fetch() and promises can be quite a footgun so sometimes i use axios for that @@DEVDerr

I also see some simple React/Svelte app to be extremely slow during the dev and prod. the 600mb node_modules folder is never the issue, the problem is always end up being the worse reimplementation of existing libs on top of the wrong choice of some libs. As long as you get rid of those fking reimplementation, the whole app runs as fast as fk. 🥲I'm just being the unfortune one who need to clean those debts. Being a framework developer imo is totally fine as long as you know it well, the hard reality is that tons of "framework developers" have no clue of the framework itself. They are not even qualified for the industry, you can call me gate-keeping. The market is being high-saturated and damaged because of them and we have to clean their terrible left-over.

😂😂😂

whole problem was .Net had nothing to make a SPA website for many years.

Blazor is great

Or use Angular. It is structured such that traditional Backend folks with OOP feel right at home

Yeah it's usually fixed using the bash command "npm install ..."

There should be a law that goes something like "You cannot fix the wrong abstraction by using that wrong abstraction."

​@@hypergraphicyeah, it's called "two wrongs don't make a right, they just get you going backwards. Three lefts _will_ make a right, though."

you fix it by including jquery actually

now we have slow javascript

React will reinvent Javascript soon enough

@@Kunal70006 reactscript?

@@Kunal70006 Isn't that JSX already?

@@Mr_Yeah nah jsx is more like a template not a language

why not ?

that is just one of the many problems there

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was getting developers to define graphical interfaces using OOP (the two have a closely linked history) and calling it functional programming.

@@scvnthorpe__ not sure if I agree; I’d love to hear more

You shouldn’t use class based components, OOP is fine.

its real man. it hurts so much

Accountability without Authority = Bureaucracy Authority without Accountability = Totalitarianism Need the balance of both.

They now can make decisions

@@MichaelPohoreski disagree. There is no accountability for bureaucracy. They are unelected officials. Though I suppose there is no accountability for elected officials, either, so maybe I just need to rethink that.

@@TehKarmalizerAccountability for major institutions and the people working within is a bit of a problem in general nowadays. Elected, unelected, shouldn't have authority in said institution at all but do anyways because of cronyism (not exactly but you get the point).

Consistency is a real problem with React. I see a lot of consultants creating new work but after a year or two they move on, never to touch that code-base again. They just start something new far way from this project that used X-router, X-state-manager, X-this and that. Then some poor guy is hired to "bugfix and make improvements" and everyone is angry after that.

OOP is good for a lot of things. At the same time, there's a lot of pitfalls and the over-prescription of classes and inheritance make for a messy and complex structure. Also, I like IoC at times, but I mean you don't need to bring it everywhere. I hated it in AngularJS. I worked for a bay area company and they used DI for NodeJS stuff and I couldn't figure out how things worked. We had devs completely stalled because we couldn't figure it out. I'm also a .NET dev and I've read Mark Seemann's Dependency Injection in .NET so I'm not foreign to the topic at all and I had trouble figuring out they did it.

🤓 🤡

Another web dev opinion. Be an engineer and utilize concepts that make you understand what your getting into.

The only people that do OOPS are those who can't organize their code.

​@@adrianspikes6454the web is literally defined by OOP, top to bottom. The DOM is all but written into law, and the only languages used in the browser are OOP to their core. If "OOP bad" is a webdev take, I'd listen. They're the ones who have to live the OOP life, day in and day out.

It also sounds exactly like the military rank structures used by every decent military since Napoleon. Fast decisions favor top-down decision making, but top-down structures are inherently unstable and ironically slow to react to change. The Marines especially embody the ideal of "informed captain": at the end of every meeting, the top dog gets up and asks everyone in the room for feedback, starting with the lowest ranking person. And because it's ultimately the top dog's decision, he really can't blame the youngest guy in the room for bad advice.

Let's be honest: you're unlikely to write an app using just vanilla JavaScript; you'll probably end up creating a new JavaScript framework instead. I can relate to this because I initially learned JavaScript through a framework. My background includes experience in Java, as well as basic knowledge of C#, C, C++, and PHP. Although I'm familiar enough with vanilla JavaScript to build a website without a framework, I would never choose to do so again when I have the option to use something like Astro or Vue.

@@HyuLilium you most definitely can. You only need to handle the state yourself by wiring it up to callbacks and such if you want to cross boundaries between Grape and React. React doesn't really care what's in your element, or even web component as long as you don't give it any reason to interfere.

@@mornwind318 it really isn't anything easy. Check out the issue Integrating React components #1970

If you are in NA or Europe then it is low. If get paid that much while working in India I am rich.

What are taxes like in Brazil? With the USA tax code I probably don't make much more than you do, and I bet the cost of living there is a fraction what it is in the States--especially rent.

​​​@@redpillsatori3020up to 27% income tax + ~60% tax in everything you buy (gas, food, etc...) + property tax + vehicle tax (and we have a 80% tax for imported products too) And company taxes to receive the money.

@@redpillsatori3020 In simple terms, the highest tax bracket is 27.5%; you get there once you hit a little more than BRL 4.6k - which is a little less than USD 1K. Taxes here are ridiculously high (I mean, sure, the part that falls on the lower bracket is taxed on that bracket, but once you star receiving more than 4.6k, you pay in taxes around 38.5% of every BRL 1 that you make - the extra that makes it around 38.5% is the national well fare system, that in theory will allow you to retire gaining an equivalent amount to your contributions, so if you make more money you pay more money but do retire making more later - most people retire from it (every one that is low income have it as their only retirement plan, so it is a import institution here), but I have my doubts about it's sustainability until I retire). You can get by a decent single life for about BRL 2.5~3K if you have rent and so on (small apartment rent). You can live better with that on a small town. Much better in some cases tbh. If you have a family with small kids, you expenses get a lot higher (it's like that on the US too, so nothing new for you I imagine).

I get 25$ an hour in UK, so yeah 40$ sounds great

I think almost any language or tool is opinionated. As they say, when you have a hammer and all that. But the statement works equally well with any other tool: when you have a screwdriver, every problem looks like a screw; when you have a wrench, every problem needs a bolt; when you have a welder, every problem could be welded; when you have duct tape, all you need is an awful lot of duct tape. The real problem is when people think that their particular favorite tool _isn't_ opinionated. I love assumptions. Assumptions are fast, usually accurate, and easily modified--unless I think they're not assumptions. Then they're slow, more wrong than trying to use a stopped clock to fix a boiler, and damn near impossible to change. Unless, of course, your tool is just bad. If I had a flathead screwdriver, every problem would need a bolt. If I had Scotch tape, every problem would need rope. But even there, you can see the assumptions that aren't assumptions anymore shining though: it's "I don't like flathead screwdrivers, therefore I need another tool that looks just like it but is easier to use," rather than "I'm trying to weld wood, therefore I really need to consider using glue."

Yes, better to call it barebones, or "no batteries included".

@@mage3690 "I think almost any language or tool is opinionated". RoR is opiniated. That way when you start a new project, you don't have to make these library decisions as everyone basically use the same. You don't have that in the JS world.

Its unopinionated because you can use it for just a single element, you don't have to code the whole website with react. people are just doing it wrong, it was never meant to be used for SPA

@@jhonyhndoea You have to have a root component pretty high in the markup in order to render anything at all. And react itself is not a lightweight dependency (not to mention it requires a build pipeline), so using it for just one component is a colossal waste.

What does OTP mean?

​@robolist2277 one-trick pony, I think

@@robolist2277 One Trick Pony - mostly used in gaming communities, usually meaning you play only one class/role/strategy etc, so technically you should be very good at the one thing you were doing your whole "career", but no experience in other aspects of the game mean you cannot fully grasp what's happening and ironically it makes you worse at the game. Same thing with programming and other aspects of life tbh.

@@braxpark Obviously The Poser

​@@erifetimone tiny penis

Exactly

It's just obviously better in all things Even in things that React devs claim that React is better at than Svelte (which is false)

Svelte❤

wpf is for desktop apps i think, they wanted to create a web app.

I remember WPF, it was actually pretty awesome to learn and to use.

WPF is great, but it is exclusively desktop and only works on Windows.

If I remember correctly WPF is technically available on multiple platforms thanks to C# cross platform shenanigans and possibly third party libraries. It's been a few years since I cared about it though.

@@disguysn WPF is, unfortunately, not cross platform. Microsoft really messed up the .NET framework to Core transition. While .NET is fully cross platform going on, many old libraries will never be made cross platform. Instead, they are left in the dust to be replaced by new .NET Core libraries. For example, .NET MAUI succeeds WPF. You can technically mayyyyybe run WPF through Wine, but that's always been the case for Windows applications and is hardly considered cross platform. On one hand this sucks a bit for those who committed huge time and code to quickly obsolescing .NET technologies, but on the other hand a rebirth of .NET libraries will provide a clearer path in the future and reinforce .NET's position as a modern cross-platform framework.

Consider the basic idea that there are shit developers out there

same python, ruby and whatnot, why hate only js, all scripting languages like this, or you want to reinvent wheel for every little thing, but you have limited time for tasks on a job, or no?

@@buc991 Web dev is reinventing the wheel every year...

@@buc991 Because JS isn't a programming language. More to the point, JS programmers do not take responsibility for the shit they use. The ecosystem for other languages are not nearly as bad. The fact that "no one uses NPM anymore", because they all use something else that tries to manage the dependency hell, says it all.

@@edwardcullen1739 All these "not NPM" alternatives either died out or caved in to becoming a strict (and worse) subset of NodeJS + NPM module resolution. Also "other languages are not nearly as bad" is a complete lie, since dependency management in turing-complete environments is a non-trivial task and is a problem in all languages.

@@ra2enjoyer708 Given this is what I do, I'm going to vehemently disagree. It is not the tool that is the problem, per se (though NPM solves the wrong problems), but the entire ecosystem and how it is used/managed. Python (pip) ecosystem is not even close to being as bad, though, the influx of data scientists and AI researchers in recent years has degraded quality overall. Turing Completeness is nothing to do with this problem - I question whether you actually know what you're talking about.

Personally, I don’t think programming is any different to learning an instrument or doing sports or any other hobby. For me it has to start with a goal of archiving a certain thing and learning the stuff while trying to do that. For example: depending on the interests and age of your kids you could build something with them together, like Arduino, which is a very nice approach to learning C.

Asking the real questions here, lol. Who cares about that React crap?

I feel like people are missing the point of the video. While you're not wrong, it show cases that OOP is a paradigm that is transferable to most other languages and frameworks, whereas React is the opinionated one here.

​@@OzzyTheGiant OOP doesn't belong in frontend code and the fact that syntactic sugar classes were added is just a mistake. Seeing OOP shilling makes me want to pick up Haskell and then Rust faster.

@@HyuLilium that's not entirely true IMHO, what is wrong is the complete abuse some devs does with OOP

@@NikPiermafrost OOP sucks, just admit it. Have an opinion for god's sake

​@@majorhumbert676web dev tier opinion

Yeah I don't feel anyone has really put their finger on exactly what went wrong. i can imagine any js project becomes a dependency nightmare if you use enough npm libraries

Angular is nigh impossible to customise. If you are you looking at doing anything more complex than your typical material-styled CRUD forms, you should go React or maybe Svelte,

​@@merodach566Good advice, but 99% of enterprise work is some sort of business process CRUDdy service.

OF COURSE there's a name for it, how could there not be? The irony is that he managed to perfectly recreate the chart (albeit inverted) without ever knowing what the median voter theorem is (AFAIK).

It's not cool enough, I use Angular for apps, and use Vue or Astro for static websites.

Angular is fine. AngularJS being deprecated destroyed lot of trust on people who boarded that train early

@@mma93067 I just googled when that was. 8 years ago. Between version 1 and 2 of something that is at version 16 now.

@@sivuyilemagutywa5286 What a based statement! I applaud you sir.

@@mma93067 same thing happened with Vue 3. They stopped supporting Class API and half the community left.

Could you elaborate

Can I trouble you to expand a lil bit on this, if you have a moment? I’ve only been working with React for 3 years, I got onboard the React train right when functional components and hooks took over so they’re what I know best and I haven’t had any issues. Would be good to hear about it from someone more experienced with class based components. As I understand it, there are additional lifecycle methods with class components, but hooks cover the majority of use cases and you still have class based to use when you need tighter control.

​ @tylerbrown1457 you can get everything done with function components, and yes class components are still viable. It isn't about control but about the way some optimizations are just easier in class components. To give a simple example: in a function component if I need control over the event delegation I will add a listener in the useEffect hook and unregister it in the return fucntion. However if that listener depends on props or any type of external state I will need to add a dependency to the useEffect or useCallback, effectively redeclaring the listener function everytime the required props change and unassigning the listener and reassigning it. Working around this is tedious in function components. In class components I don't specify any dependencies, I just register on mount. The listener is a class method referencing class properties. If these properties change nothing happens but if the event is fired the state it references will be up to date. You can handle these issues in function components but it is way less straightforward. Most of the time you don't need to and function components are great but having fine control over the diff checking and rerenders is just harder with function components.

What are you smoking? React delegates events by default, you don't need to write your own delegator logic for that. And if you think that passing callbacks is annoying, relying on indirect string references for your logic is even worse.

@@ra2enjoyer708 if you never needed control over your event delegation I'm happy for you. Yes in most cases the default event delegation is fine but if you ever need to work with drag and drop/drag selection distinct windowed lists (frequent updates across multiple components, with events affecting each other) you will probably need more control or juste create horrible performance. When elaborating any complex behaviour involving a large number of elements immutability will become a performance bottleneck. It seems like you barely read me and jumped to a conclusion. I chose to migrate to function components because I find them better in most cases but there are these specific complex cases where adhering to the encapsulation and immutability of function components will render performance optimizations tedious. If you don't see the benefits of statefulness and mutability don't use them but they do exist and implementing them with hooks is sometimes way more comvoluted than with class components.

It may require more dev time but once done it is future proof because there is no dependency.

These errors should be cough in the tests anyway. Since when you expect to catch serious errors building an interpreted language without static types

It wasn't even his own team, it was an outside dev shop. I was like "How about you get the devs suitable for the task instead of making the task suitable to OUTSIDE devs?"