Couldn’t agree more mate. The jazz musician Miles Davis once said that the actual beauty in music is the space between the notes. Being comfortable in moments of silence and pauses is so important. This shows Colin’s mastery as an interviewer.

the long periods of silence while Jonathan tries to figure out how to dance around saying trigger words so not to offend regressives. jesus christ. well, he's called "the smartest man in gaming," not the man in gaming with the biggest backbone.

@@isturbo1984 It's more that he's trying to articulate word choice in the most eloquent manner possible. Even if you say trigger words, there are refined ways of organizing those same words together. It's clear that Jonathan understands and respects the art of word choice.

@@metaldicemansure. i know. he's refined for sure. but its a 80/20 thing thats pretty obvious.

@@isturbo1984It's a case of "been there, done that". Any time he's more spicy people get very mean in a bad way. Like the tweet that was referenced in this interview, the quote tweets were VILE, and that wasn't even a very spicy take. There is backbone and then there is not wanting to get thrown shit at you for a week for five sentences you've said.

Nice pfp. RIP Akira Toriyama.

I dunno man. He hasn't delivered. He didn't include a final secret or Easter egg in the Witness ... Even though it required you to watch a 2hout KZfaq video about Easter eggs and mystery in media

There are a few final secrets, arguably including the 1 hour lecture you mentioned and its corresponding secret, which is not actually ‘required’ seeing as how it is itself a ‘secret’.

@@nintendude794 I suppose. I was little let down when I turned all the pillars white and it did it didn't trigger anything new. I was bummed.

I think that the education system being a requirement and societal expectationn for vulnerable kids while also annihilating ambition and harming student's brains is a bad societal problem. It seems like in elementary/middle/high school, people do what they are told and don't try to be the best at anything. I relate to what you say.

@@0iaWhenever I had problems in school, for whatever reason, it was always my male Social Studies/Geography teachers who were the most helpful. Even if it had nothing to do with grades, if it had to do with fitting in or whatever, it always seemed like they were the nicest, most caring, and most helpful. I'll always remember their names because of this. They wanted the best for me, they wanted the best out of me, and they helped me improve myself, both as a person and a student.

@@stuckintheinbetween :)

.hopesfall.

As an outsider that casually tuned in to see why the game dev environment is terrible at the moment I found Blow saying that he’s spent the past 8 years making an engine and a programming language instead of an actual game. I then go to read the comments section and see that you called him rational. Listen to Blow at 15:48. He knows he’s making bad decisions. The game industry is making poor management decisions. Blow can sort of do this because he sounds borderline genius and has some cash. You all sound lovely and I think Blow is a good guy. But seriously I’ve seen this before with smart programmers and they shoot themselves in the foot sometimes by aiming for perfection.

Same!

It's generally best to let your opinion of someone be formed by that person directly!

He has some really bad takes, but he has some really good takes too. Rather than caring for what impression he gives you as a person, it's better to consider each idea on its own merit.

Jon is just very neurotic, it's not something he has control over but even in this conversation you can see the critical negative lense of course, just less grumpy and more concerned, but similar idea

The default for someone working in software should be grumpy. The industry is loaded with snake oil and horse 💩 More should discuss this

Curious what you mean by this. I’m a software developer myself and I don’t really feel this way in general. Honestly it’s the most fulfilling job I’ve ever had (and I’ve had a few, in various industries like healthcare, construction, and service)

I have some opinions that would absolutely appal even LSM

Lol. We all do but unfortunately I would like to keep my job so I will keep them to myself. But when I retire; I will enjoy being honest for once! @@Dmpurcell90

Nailed it 👍 it’s an open minded community. Love the LSM followers.

Yeah, Blow clearly came into this interview on the defensive knowing full well he might polarize. But honestly, I didn’t find him polarizing at all. He came across as reasonable and rational. Very compelling interview.

Jonathan blow back?

I need to get back to it, got probably about 1/3 thru and fell off a bit. I'll probably need to start over which gives me anxiety. I had a notebook I was using but that may be incoherent coming back years later.

One of the best games ever made and a true work of Art.

I couldn't solve any puzzles. Maybe should give it another go

@@OnlyRealCloud I'd say take notes and also realize though technically you can "solve" any of them at any time there is a route your guided on that gives you some of the building blocks of what different symbols mean. If you walk up to one and it's complex and contains a bunch of stuff you haven't seen before make note of it and what's on it but then go look around as you almost definitely skipped over the easier ones that train you.

Been that way since Dadaism

The reason that anyone's thorough, transparent, and earnest attempts at objectivity in criticism are so eagerly interpreted (or, more often, outright ignored) as being 'anti-woke' is largely because the very notion of objectivity itself implies/requires a hierarchy--of quality, based on merit. Merit in the context of criticism could be defined by such characteristics as internal consistency (coherence) and flawlessness (demonstrated proficiency of craft/technique, apparent achievement/fulfillment of artistic goals and ideals, minimal observed presence of potential error or fault). Merit and hierarchy (and ideals) alike are all inherently anti-thetical to the 'woke' worldview, and the instincts it instantiates. According to the Book of Woke, no person or race or sex or height or weight or occupation or geographical location or lifestyle or sexuality or "lived experience" is superior or inferior or qualitatively different to any other, they are all equal--none are above or below in any way whatsoever and therefore all are totally equal in value, equal in merit. Therefore, no winners allowed, so instead everyone gets a participation trophy and a pat on the back, in all outcomes. Big problem with that: "when everyone's Super, no one will be." When no one can win, anymore, every one has to lose. As an example, women now have to ("get to") become soldiers and firefighters and construction workers and CEOs instead of nurses and teachers and counselors and mothers--because there 'are no differences', and because there -*-can-*- be no differences. Forget the fact that if the idea of 'no differences' was true, affirmative action would never have survived its infancy, or never existed in the first place. But alas, even on 'leveled' Diverse Inclusive Equitable playing fields, women [and "minorities"] still struggle to -*-compete-*- -- emphasis on compete, again merit, hierarchy, etc. -- and essentially end up serving their new masters as mere props and tokens, tragically and ironically. This also applies perfectly for men and women entering each others' athletic arenas under the guise of trans-inclusivity--so extreme is this new view that men and women are 'equal' that you must also view them as wholly interchangeable, regardless of circumstance or context. When no one can win, anymore, every one has to lose. Same goes for art and criticism. The woke (more than the anti-woke) would prefer to "say nothing at all unless they have something nice to say", generally, unless of course they're talking to or about the perceived anti-woke... More importantly, the woke (more than the anti-woke) would prefer to forget film and design and art altogether--instead, everything is content now, and no content is superior to any other content: no content *can* be superior to any other content. Just consoooom product, and get excited for next product. Be content with mere 'content'. Enjoy the g0yslop that passes for entertainment nowadays, chud. You've *earned* it... No one can win, anymore, every one has to lose. In fact, why not just let the subscription services and the AIs handle alllll your art and entertainment needs and desires from here on out. As if you have a choice in the matter. Own nothing, live in pod, eat bugs, and be happy. That day is closer than anyone, including me, is prepared for. No one can win, anymore, every one has to lose. Every one is equal in the eyes of the rootless transnational capitalist cabal of masters. Anyways... A majority probably don't even recognize these instincts of theirs, or that they're connected in this way. “Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free.”--Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn The same or similar could be said of videogames, films, and all other articles of art. For more on this topic / these topics, I highly recommend: Harrison Bergeron by Kurt Vonnegut The Force Awakens Review: Introduction by MauLer (but only the first 64 minutes or so, for our specific conversation here) An Apology For Roger Ebert GDC Talk by Brian Moriarty All Cultures Are Beautiful series by Sargon Are Some Cultures Better Than Others? by PragerJu I mean PragerU Brave New World by Huxley Google's Ideological Echo Chamber by James Damore

@@nintendude794 Wokeism is proven illogical the second you see one lion pride take out another, or observe the evolution of a species throughout time via it's domination of other species and intra-domination of certain types within that species. Modern people need to get some balls and call this ideology out for what it is because by the time it destroys our society it will be a killing field not a time for debate.

​@@nintendude794 Frankly this might be one of the most insane posts I've ever come across, quoting the fucking Incredibles and citing PragerU and Sargon. Or literal introductory literature such as Huxley or Vonnegut. Or the most fucking milquetoast taste on "Games are Art" ever by Brian Moriarty. All while disparaging "woke". I'm not sure where you get the notion that "woke media" says nothing unless it has something nice to say, or that they're against the idea of objectiveness. "Woke people" might not believe that there is literally some divinely ordained truth to the universe that makes some art better than other, but 99% will confidently tell you that Huxley and Vonnegut are literal shit taught to high schoolers who have never had to think critically for more than five seconds. Actual "woke" is when Toni Morrison makes Claudia, a ten year old black girl, racist towards white people in her novel The Bluest Eye. Is Claudia justified in this because normalized White beauty standards in America mean she will never be beautiful (she will never have blue eyes)? Is it justified because she had a bad experience with a white girl her age telling her she was ugly? Or are her growing feelings of violence towards White people a tad bit extreme? After all, it's not like any of the other Black characters in the book are saints either. It's a rather destructive book, all told. All the characters are perpetuating the racist, misogynist, violent society of 1940's Urban America, and a lot of the nuance is lost when in the end it will always be White Americans who are more valued in the country. Not because of any actual merit, mind you, but because they simply "are" (and there's a whole world and country history that leads to that assumption all the way up to today). If your experience of "woke" is Twitter, or Reddit, or KZfaq videos by literal racists and misogynists, you need to grow the fuck up and read learn about the world. It's so easy to confine yourself to an echo chamber where you define entire groups of people by your third hand interactions with them. Have you ever thought about that? Have you ever thought about how PragerU might not be portraying everything in an objective light? Do you perhaps agree with them because you already have a preconceived worldview and this simply confirms it? Challenge yourself. Don't listen to Jonathan Blow to say you agree with him. Respond to his ideas, because I sincerely doubt you will always 100% agree with what he says no matter how big a fan of his you are. As for me, though I love Toni Morrison's work and how antithetical it is to the White experience in America, I think it has blindspots and is genuinely mean spirited at points, no different than Claudia's racism (see: the lives of people considered White trash in Cormac McCarthy's Suttree, and their struggle to overcome it. Great thing to think about in tandem with Morrison). That doesn't invalidate everything Morrison has ever said, but it does mean that I recognize limits in her arguments or points where I simply disagree. Also, if you really want to think about meritocracy, you'll have to contend with the fact that it's a utopian vision impossible to realize. You say that women "have to" become this or that. No. Literally no. This is not "woke mantra". "Woke mantra" is ultimately about letting people realize that they have the choice to become whatever they want to me, and more importantly, dismantling systems that predetermine your value as a person such as racism or misogyny. Tell me, why do you believe that women make worse soldiers, CEOs, firefighters, or anything else? Is it something inherent to their gender? Because then there's a great discussion to be had about the societal definitions of gender and sex. Believe it or not, "science" is not some all defining objective truth! It is a human generated belief that will only ever justify human notions of reality. People will cite "science" when saying something like that "XY is a man and XX is a woman!", ignoring the people with XYX and XXX chromosome types, the people who are born XY with traditionally-associated female genitalia and XX with traditionally-associated male genitalia, the people born with a mix of genitalia and internal reproductive organs. "Science" has already told us that binary sex does not exist and that gender is a malleable, social construct that varies from culture to culture (unless you inherently believe some cultures are better than others, in which case you would either have to enter with an extremely good faith argument or simply shut the fuck up). But "science" can never overcome people who will pick and choose and censor as they please to confirm their pre-baked beliefs. A meritocracy will always fail because it will never actually be objective. And this makes it oppressive to everyone who is not """objectively""" superior at something. Take note of the fact that I've forgone the typical "But marginalized people have it inherently harder because of systemic oppression, and that's why we have to lift them up!" argument to prove that "merit" is a self contradictory idea when applied to actual humanity (of which we all are). As much as I agree with it and it's validity, it is not the only way to prove that it's stupid. And I don't say any of this to mean that "merit" is a useless concept, but when applied to defining the entire world, it becomes very harmful very quickly. (Also, never think for one second that you, or anyone else, is a paragon of logic and merit. That is literally the opposite of logical; you are turning off your critical thinking skills). On a finale note: Your dumbing down of "woke people" into people who enjoy subscription services and AI is simply stupid. Most "woke people" recognize subscription services as predatory models and AI models as only ever regurgitating the oppressive ideals that humanity loves loves LOVES to perpetuate in most mainstream media, making it actually quite un-"woke". If you are going to become smart about the world, it will not be from listening to fucking Jonathan Blow talk about video games. He's generally a fucking idiot who has mildly interesting insight into game design, particularly with puzzle games (see? I hate his guts, but I still listen for the occasional gem. It's almost as if I'm capable of critically thinking for myself!). Nor do you have anything to learn from Brian Moriarty, MauLer, or PragerU unless you are interested in baby's first approach to subjectivity and objectivity, how to be irrationally angry at nothing, and alt-right propaganda respectively. I implore you, genuinely think for yourself. Engage with works, don't just accept what they have to say as fact and don't define people and entire movements by the few interactions you have online. Even here, with Huxley, engage with this idea: what if there actually is something utopian about its society, equal to the traits that make it dystopian? Did Huxley write out an assassination attempt on the concept utopias or is the novel's London perhaps more complex than a binary good or bad? Even if you do choose to see London as ultimately bad, does that completely eschew the accomplishments of the supposedly "utopian" society?

I thought I was the only one confusing him with Dave Bautista. He looks like Bautista's cousin or something.

It’s the shape of his head/neck, he has that same round bald cranium look. Somehow dudes with that head shape look powerful AF lol

He looks like Dave Bautista mixed with Karl Pilkington

You shouldn't agree on everything someone thinks, shows you're in the right place

“You can’t fix other people, but you can fix yourself.”

The economy is not fucked for normal people because anyone was irresponsible lol, this is exactly the way it was supposed to go

It's just capitalism and its limits. We didn't built a world based on human values and human needs. We built a world based on money, short-term gains etc....everything is showing us we have to adjust our value system to reflect what REALLY matters in life. The society we have is not meant to thrive.

My second favourite game of all time. Avoid spoilers and enjoy!

You might hit moments where you're completely stuck and the urge to give up will kick in. Try to push through. Take a break or come back to that puzzle later and you'll eventually solve it. It's one of the most satisfying experiences when you finally finish the game.

I still didn't manage to finish the game but I absolutely love it. M8ght try again soon😅

So have I! This man has made two masterpieces. Braid was the game that really made me a believer in the "indie" space and the witness was a one of a kind game. It's a puzzle game that takes the most simple mechanic and transcends it to a beautiful, surreal, and mind bending experience.

Great way to put it.

Turns out if you have overwhelming ability and the right personality it doesn't have to be a fantasy.

@@bigfrankalbigguy789 well, as of now, it still is lol... he's come further than others, sure, but let's look back when he actually ends up with a finished game.

​@@DrTheRichhe'll either ride it out till the end or go broke. His personality won't allow him to cut off from the sunken cost.

I agree, remote work exposes individuals who weren't productive in the office but got away with it. It also gives employees more time, less stress and gives employers access to a wider range of skills since they're no longer limited by geographic location

I agree but I'm not in a creative field and I think maybe in those fields its easier to be collaborative in that way. That said my quality of life is drastically improved as a work at home worker, and also if these companies really put their money where their mouths were about reducing their carbon footprint they would do this where ever it made sense. I think in many cases they want to micromanage their employees.

I do remote work at this point as well, because my focus shifted from caring about what I do to just wanting to do the job and get out. I believe back in the day it used to be different - you would be in a room with people who are all about what they do and always had insights to share about the stuff they do. I believe conversations would be about topics and not personal/social things of the workplace. Nowadays it seems very stigmatized to care about what you do - at least from my experience. You are better off signaling that you are as common as you can be - so why not just as well socially dissociate by working remote and reinvesting the rest of your day in the things you truly care about. Especially the web stuff feels very alienating...

In my experience working at a smaller studio for 5+ years, I'd agree with Jonathan Blow on this one. Game dev, especially with smaller teams, is pretty different from your standard 9-5 job where you just do your job to get paid and then leave. People get into game dev because they're intensely passionate about their work, and most people I know want a collaborative, creative, and tight-knit environment. That requires building and maintaining healthy team dynamics, especially because it's an inherently stressful and exhausting job. You both 'have' and 'want' to put so much of yourself into it, and sometimes that can blur the lines between personal and work life. It takes a very specific kind of person to want it. I've experienced firsthand exactly what he's talking about, where gradually remote work can start to feel isolating. I think it does have a demonstrable negative effect on morale and productivity. Seeing people in person at events and doing more in-office work has had a lot positive effects for team culture. Again, it's very different than most jobs.

Too many in the American workforce need to be babysat in the workplace unfortunately.

😂 Ok, this comment got me. 😂

I had a HS teacher named Mr. Creme. And we just kinda laughed at that

Wanna hear something even more on the nose (or tip)? I had a school nurse named Mrs. Dick. Her husband’s name? Harry…….you know the rest.

And as a human being, he has every right "to fully indulge in that mindframe." We have freedom of speech, where we get to express our opinions about matters that affect us, and he is sharing his opinions about matters that affect gaming and the games industry-and that includes business and econonics, seeing as he owns his own company that employs others, which means he has a vested interest and a highly informed opinion about such things.

He’s doing exactly what he’s supposed to be doing:)

Lack of meritocracy, more like.

This usurious financial system is the main culprit. Research economics in Islam - no usury, no illegal taxes, no undercutting, no monopolies,....the greatest system anyone could wish for (except the usurers)

I think it depends on the industry as well. the kind of collaborative game dev stuff he’s talking about probably requires more teamwork, but if you have a more individuated industry like the one I work in it’s fine to be at home. Sometimes you don’t need a team of people to do your work, and if you already have a good social circle of family/friends then the “isolation” of WFH winds up not being such a big deal.

His entire view is myopic. It’s not like he’s going around to other businesses and interviewing their workers. It’s all assumptions.

Some being the key word. Most people are not that productive working at home they just prefer it

​@user-dj9iu2et3r Yes but he I think is right from some industries I've seen as a contractor for various different companies ( we do security equipment)

It's also that most jobs are persued just to make money and to live a somewhat decent life. For little indie-game studios like Jon's, the environment vastly differs. These people work there because they love what they do and they all believe in shared long-term goals. That's just not comparable to some web-dev job where you don't care about the product or your coworkers and just want to grind through the task-list.

Anything worthwhile is time-consuming

The Witness is my second favorite videogame of all time and I also am still missing the final trophy. I’ll play the whole game a third or fourth time someday and claim that achievement then. (It’d be difficult to do without a thorough refresher on the game’s “languages”.)

@@nintendude794 Yeah you're right. Like, I'm really good at puzzles (imo) but I'm just not super fast. So I remember I just kept falling short of that certain trophy because it's on a timer. I'm just not fast enough lol which means I guess I'm not smart enough hahaha. Still, such a great game

It's not like he needs the language for the game. He just couldn't take dealing with C++ any more after decades of it.

@@forasago I couldn't take dealing with C or ++ in college either. And that was only a few months 😁

And Ed McMillen for that matter. Bonus: Rich Vreeland.

now that’s an interview that could go ape-poop off the rails. would totally look forward to that!

is Phil doing anything these days?

Movies cost a lot when it comes to dollar per hour value, but they are priced low enough that they feel like an accessible impulse buy and they don’t take any effort, just sitting and watching. Games take effort and interaction and for some, that barrier to entry is too much. And sure, sometimes you won’t like a movie, but it still didn’t take much effort to experience and the money is spent and it’s over and many times you experience it with another person so at least you hopefully had fun being with someone else for the experience. If I buy a $70 digital game at home on my console and play it for one hour and hated it and can’t sell it or return it, now I just feel like I wasted a lot of money, and then I will also be more careful and cautious when buying the next one.

exactly, while development cost increased, the cost of distributing it fell to nothing.

I don't think you fully appreciate how much the price of games has come down. When Zelda released on the NES it was $50 in the US - or around $115 in today money. It had a development timeline of about a year and a core team of about 10 people. Zelda TOTK on switch was $70. It took around 5 years and 300 people.

@@1337pianoman at the same time the same development cost was spread across 3 times the number of sales and with rough estimate 30%+ of them being digital sales aka less cost. and this is very atypical most games sell nearly exclusively digitally now.

@@cj09beira Nintendo used to take a 33% cut of third party games on the SNES, which included the cartridge manufacture, and we can assume it was cheaper for them than that. freight was about 1%. Even rounding way up and saying manufacture was 50% of the cost, that would mean games should cost half what they used to. Let's look at a game like Hades. It had a team of 20 people working on it for 3 years. That's twice the team size of original Zelda and an extra year, but let's be generous and call it the same. It should have cost half as much since it was digital. That's around $57. It retailed for $20. That's a massive drop in price. Looking at TOTK again, it has more than 10x the team size and 2x the development time so you should expect to pay 20x the cost. If it was priced the same as games used to be, that's $1000 per copy. And that's being incredible conservative. Games cost >1/10th what they used to. The only way it's at all close to being viable is because the market has grown massively. But mostly it's just not actually viable which is why we see good games studios closing all the time

A 4k bump is going to be massive. One of my favorite games but I never replayed it so definitely looking forward to this

@@brandonkylemarks The game is gonna be stunning. I played it a few times when it came out to get all the achievements but haven't touched it since. It's been good playing it now because for the most part I forgot all the puzzles.

It was certainly along for the ride at least. Watch Indie Game: The Movie.