The balls to cal a world champion shooter’s grip wrong lol

I’ve found I’m less likely to flinch and push the gun with floaty thumbs. Glad to be validated by the best

Finished school with a Masters in Kinesiology. Every instructor who encourages breaking your wrist from a neutral position is flat out wrong. It robs your hand of strength. Second, thumbs up, actually improves strength in your grip, and makes it easier to keep your thumbs away from controls that can interfere with the operation of the firearm. I encourage people to roll their support hand back some to improve strength in their grip as well as make it easier to lock the wrist. Ben is far closer to anatomically correct in his grip than 90% of the shooters I see on KZfaq giving any advice on controlling a firearm. Orion Training Group teaches it this way to great affect, though I don't think they have any video posted of the training. Hwansik is another with a solid foundation to mirror.

Jerry Miculek is Floaty Thumbs Gang

Ben is absolutely correct on this. Thumbs are Opposable they are actually working against the other four fingers and hands in the grip. If you are gripping the pistol with what many have referred to as the clam shell grip with no space in-between the butt of both palms on the rear of the pistol, add the thumbs and you'll quickly see those palms separate, and the grip breaks down. Thumbs have no place in the gripping or control of pistol.

I’ve started watching Ben’s videos every day while I dryfire and I am increasing my shooting knowledge alot by listening and trying to follow along. I know you are already a pretty big name in the shooting world but you are broadening your demographic by posting so much quality stuff. Makes me want to buy your book. Thank you sir!

Grip, as well as other fundamentals of pistol shooting, may vary from shooter to shooter (compare what Ben is talking about versus Eric Grauffel's grip with support hand index finger over the trigger guard). Fundamentals are based around principles, not technique. Technique varies from shooter to shooter. Bet all my Monopoly money that the critiques wouldn't even be dust in Ben's shoes soles if they shot the same drill/exercise/stage side by side.

I agree. I am a fairly new practial shooter. I used to always shoot pistols with that "Vogel grip" or "tactical grip". This was fine as long as I was not shooting faster than 0.5 splits. Once I started doing doubles and getting sub 0.2 splits, I could NEVER keep my rounds in the A zone consistently (low hits). Fast forward the adopting a more practical grip from PSTG (as Ben has shown in this video), and it made a night and day difference. I have spent approximately 4k rounds over the last two months comparing different grips, in attempt to find which is the most consistent for me. Without a doubt, not using the thumbs has been unequivocally better for me versus introducing any input into the gun with my thumbs.

It’s interesting to see the differences in grip amongst great shooters. You with floating thumbs and say Robert Vogel who is all the way out on the front of the gun with his support hand. Can’t argue with the results of either. I think you could have a channel dedicated to just grip lol.

I love these little short informative video's Ben does.. Awesome..

You, Matt, and hkim made me realize I was overthinking and changing grip way too much impeding my improvement in everything else. Went to a grip that was consistent and stabile and I just don’t worry about it anymore

Great content in this video, but I have to give props to the audio and video quality. Top notch 🤌🏽

Everyone's hand (muscle, tendon, bones...) is different. How much strength/pressure applied on the grip is a subjective matter - it is a FEELING. figuring out someone's own repeatable and consistent grip is a process. Instructors can give some suggestions and possible solutions. It is up to the person who will have go through trial-and-error phase.

Tactical shooters seem to shoot more with a rolled over wrist. Competitive shooter are more passive. Not all, but some.

For me using my none dominant thumb helps stabilize my pistol just a bit more and reduces side to side movement my when pulling the trigger. I don’t press into the gun crazy,I just go thumbs forward and firm.

I took Jedi’s red dot instructors course a few years ago. Floaty thumbs/ anti 🐓 blockers gang for me ever since.

Your comment on our ability to lock our wrists without going full thumbs forward is such a great and nuanced point that eluded me for a long time. I would hear lock your wrists, but unless you’re shooting something with the Glock style grip angle, you’d be pointing the muzzle at the ground doing so thumbs forward. I have slightly larger hands, alien fingers as it were, So there’s not always a ton of real estate for the support hand down low. I experimented with schemes up high, using thumbs for a long time, and no matter what I did my hand would come off or my thumbs would start ruining my impact because I couldn’t build any type of consistency. in a lot of ways when I stopped worrying about it and gripped the space I could find and put some fatter grips on there that helped more than anything. It’s still a struggle sometimes getting enough space for my support hand, but any other workaround it’s just too inconsistent.

grauffel approved.

I appreciate the information in your videos.

Brian Enos talked about floating thumbs in his book as well. I started shooting with offhand thumb on the frame then recently tried to float and so far my rounds have been pushing left consistently. Working on my trigger press to sort this out. I feel like this is kin to changing something in your golf swing. Takes a little time and work to adjust. Thanks for sharing so much info💪

These videos have been such an eye opener to my shooting skill set, Thank you.

I tried one of those Align Tactical Glock thumb rests just to see if they actually worked for me. Took a few slow-mo videos with and without and the only real difference I could tell is I was actually driving the gun down where I’d have to correct myself back to my intended POA. The actual muzzle rise wasn’t even noticeable. Needless to say I sold it immediately 😂

This is how I shoot. I'm wrong handed. Thanks for the share!

Thanks for this. You just confirmed what my instructor told me. The only thing consistent about my hits at 15 yards and out was they were always pretty left. Plus I could never get slide lock on my last round. I’m left handed and it didn’t make sense to me because I thought left handed shooters usually pushed right. My instructor looked at my grip and asked me why I had my thumbs slammed against the side of my pistol so far forward. I told him my last instructor said that was the best grip. The thumbs high and forward and pressing aggressively on the gun with high thumbs for recoil control. He said, “well, he was an idiot and it’s not working, so stop that shit”. Now I grip my gun with “floaty thumbs” and I can still lock my wrist without tension. Guess what? Hits got WAY better, my slide locks open now and I have a lot less fatigue in my wrist and forearm at the end of the day. And what the hell is with that waving your support hand thumb up and over crap?! 🤦🏼‍♂️

Excellent. That's the way I was taught years ago.

Ben definitely has useful tips on proper hand gun fundamentals. Thanks for your time online. Bought his book too.

Good information

Thanks for this video. I've been trying different thumb positions, and I have found I consistently shoot more accurately with a floating thumb. I was surprised by this result so your explanation was useful.

@Ben Stoeger As I've mentioned in several of your other videos, I've incorporated changes to my grip due to your training videos. Your comment about the lack of consistency and the thumbs pushing the barrel around are spot on for me. My focus on grip during dry fire really brought this to light for me.

But but, the biomechanics and laser alignment with the co-sign of the hypotenuse of the 5th element will not be using the Pythagorean equation. If not done, your dimensions pushing against the negative electrons within the atoms of the polymer, forces you to miss…

If somebody wants to say you’re doing it wrong, tell them to go tell Lena to correct her grip👍🏽😁

Feels good to get confirmation bias from Ben lol. I figured this out a little while ago that thumb pressure is inconsistent and just opens up my groups.

So pleased to see you discussing this as it is something I have been focusing on recently when I noticed a problem. As I tire I tend to push more with my support thumb and it has been causing malfunctions as the thumb slows the slide and doesn't come fully back into battery. Jerry Miculek said squeeze it like a rattlesnake and get the thumbs out of the way and that has been my mantra as I try to train the problem away.

Our Senior Instructors teach very similar to you. ‘Thumbs namely are out of the way when they’re off the gun’ is what I hear them say all the time lol. We agree with you Ben! Keep up the great content! You’re the man.👊💪

Great video! Good to know I’m not the only one to the gun that way. I’ve been told but some shooter that I have bad grip since I don’t go thumbs forward

I keep my thumbs pretty loose too. Applying pressure doesn't help at all and usually makes things worse. Many more effective ways to grip the gun.

I’ve literally been having the slide lock out issue for years lol. Thanks for this. Gonna have to break myself of the thumb forwards grip

Better to try multiple methods and find out what works best for you. What works and doesn’t work for him may work different for you. Everyone has different size hands, more or less hand strength and wrist strength. Modify where you need to that works for you. Non of this is a one size fits all. Don’t limit yourself to one person’s experiences and opinions.

Unless I have missed it does Ben have any videos about shooting one handed and non dominant one handed for USPSA anywhere?

My conclusion after a 2 month obsession with grip is that you are correct.

Lmao@people talking about your grip. Hilarious

finally a break down on thumb positions. I never hear any talk about it. I generally thumb into the frame but curious to see what others say. Thanks for the vids.

I think the idea of thumbs forward comes from "point shooting" where Your thumbs are pointing in line with the barrel and can try to help you get on target faster, and the idea of a consistent hand positions when switching between pistol and rifle. The high support hand with thumbs forward mirrors how most people with hold an AR-15. I'm curious if you ride the safety on a 2011 with your firing hand and if you'd apply any pressure there or just use it as an index point as well.

Thank you for talking about this. I've always noticed how non "cool guy" your grip looks, with the low support hand and floaty thumbs. But your shooting obviously speaks for itself. It was the main thing that got me to really experiment with my grip. I never felt comfortable with my thumbs and/or wrist rolled way the hell forward, not even close, and trust, I tried to make it work. Putting ledges/grip tape on the frame was definitely not for me. I feel the grip I ended up with, and am using now, tracks with what you talked about here, so I feel vindicated. The gun tracks in a way that I feel is consistent, predictable and comfortable. Keep up the content, you're killing it here on YT.

Really like your take on eye dominance and grip. I have never felt like I could get my fucked up long thumbs on the frame without compromising my grip strength. The gun isn't recoiling left or right, it's back and up. Holding the gun firmly and maybe a lil awareness of pinky pressure to anchor it is perfect for me. If your thumb can rest on the frame naturally, great, but most don't.

Interesting. I accidentally happened upon this technique a few weeks ago when I thought I "blew" a draw stroke/grip. This is validating.

Miculek has floaty thumbs. I ain’t arguing with him or Ben.

The thumb rest makes a huge difference. The grip and the way I control de gun is different and more effective

I've tried a few different ways of holding my gun and the thumbs-forward grip works best for me. The difference is that my thumbs lightly touch the gun and I don't press them against the gun. I'm left-handed, so it doesn't prevent me from properly operating my CZ Shadow. Everyone is different and I agree with what you are saying.

this was timely. i started to realize during dry fire practice this week i was far more consistent with high thumbs than riding the safety.

I have a student who was told to put non-dominant thumb pressure against the slide to help him from, "shooting left." Ugh. Besides not being consistent, predictable and repeatable, I asked him how his one handed shooting is. Correct the problem with the shooting hand; don't attempt to "fix it" with the other.

Yep. Same thing Karl Rehn suggested to me for my strong-hand thumb a couple of years ago.🙂 (And do I always remember to do it? Well. . . maybe. 🙄).

Ben, how much have you been influenced by Brian Enos? Your grip reminds me of the ‘neutral’ grip he describes in Beyond Fundamentals. The alternative grip you describe was popularized by Vogel. What’s wild is that people can achieve good results with such different techniques!

Good to know. I have floaty thumbs as well, when I was starting out shooting I figured out I was pushing shots to the right because I was putting pressure against the gun with my thumb. So from there I decided my thumbs have no business getting involved in my grip

What I've found in my own discovery with grip method is when I point my thumbs forward the gun took longer to return to the point I'm focused on. When I float my thumbs and point both thumbs up the gun returns almost immediately. Don't know if there is a reason for that or if I'm being stupid but thumbs up seems to let me get faster and more consistent doubles especially when I back up past 15 yards.

Align tactical crying theirselves to sleep on thier pillow tonight.

It's hilarious to hear an amateur tell a Pro World Champion that his grip is not correct!

Agree, pushing with thumbs add nothing but unnecessary tension in the hands and interfere with controls.

I agree 💯

Tell Miculek that wrapping the trigger guard is wrong. Tell John Daly his backswing is too long. Are any of them ideal?…probably not. Did all of them figure out how to get to the apex of their sports? Yep. Point is there’s nothing wrong with having a bit of variety in grip. It’s an individual thing. I like to make lazy contact. I’m not pushing at all, but I have had issues with my p220 shooting SHO, trying to tame the recoil. I’ve hit the controls.

The critical thing here isn’t about thumbs, it’s about making a regular practice of testing your assumptions and challenging your beliefs. Here’s my bet. If someone proved to Ben that pressing thumbs into the gun makes you measurably faster and more accurate, but only if you’re dressed like a ballerina, he’d be asking us what color tutu he should buy the next day.

If they think you're wrong, they should prove it... They'd have to shoot better than you. If they want to prove it, how about Man on Man plate racks? for 1K a run? They can put up or shut up. 🤣. I know who me and the rest of PSTG are putting side bets on! 😉

Ever since I started floating I started progressing

I am guilty of using my support thumb to drive the gun downwards. While i can shoot glocks ok I have found that if a gun doesnt have a place for my thumb I can't shoot them well at all. After watching this I am going to start dry firing the floating thumb way and try to ditch that habit

Naturally my thumbs “float” as well - I’ve tried to keep them on the gun but for whatever reason my brain won’t let me - so I’ve stopped trying lol I just don’t see how thumbs would do much for recoil control anyway 👍🏻👍🏻

Lol seen it with the thumb rest in one of your classes, shooting doubles the guy to my right was asking why his 5K 2011 wasn’t grouping as tight as my 34 😂

What about riding the safety with your firing hand on a 1911/2011?

I'm gonna have to try this out. I have been a thumb pressure guy for a while, and my tendency to occasionally and erratically shank low is starting to make a bit of sense.

Since I transitioned mostly to micro-9mms for carry, other then occasional 10mm carry, I'm finding it a difficult habit to break. Thumb contact with P365 type pistols is not a good thing because the contact almost always drifts to the slide. I wish I could just flip a switch and make my thumb a non issue but its instead very difficult to change after 5+ decades of riding the side of the handguns with my thumb.

When I got back into shooting I was heavily shooting a P226 and came to the same opinion. If I kept my thumbs more relaxed and out of the way I would avoid pressing the slide stop. At most I've occasionally put grip tape patches just as an index but never to actually apply pressure with my thumb.

LAWS OF PHYSICS: If you press the left side of the frame with your left hand thumb, your right hand has to torque the wrist the oppiste way to get equilibrium. I do not want force going a dozen different directions just to get a grip and point the sight towards a target.

I'm a mid-pack B shooter but I have found when I focus on where my thumbs are and what they're doing my shit gets wild. I also see guys show up to the weeknight matches that essentially have a single shot because they keep locking the slide back after every shot. What you're saying makes total sense to me.

My thumbs are high on the slide but no pressure is applied. From the wrist angle needed for glocks I just find it more comfy

Ben, what about lefties? A thumbs up approach can put up a thumb in front of ejecting brass casing. What’s your view? Thanks!

I think the floating thumbs is mostly a glock thing. The width of the frame at the top of the grip kind of forces the thumbs off the frame, unless you have really large hands or long thumbs that can get around that wider area of the frame. It definitely does not negatively affect recoil control.

How much does sideways friction mean when i use hammer? Why do no hammers or axes have tapes on sides to maximize grip? Should a fletching knife have grip tapes to be any good? How about chisels? How should i hold a file? Gloves or not when i do that? What if there is winter half the year like here in Finland? Should i buy a new hammer or better axe to chop woods? Can i shoot animals in winter? What if i get cold or it starts to rain in summer? After a swim someone attacks me and i cannot use a gun because it is so slippery? I could end up wrestling with a dog or bear and revolver would be better? Yea i should mag dump all rounds fast as possible to one enemy with low muscle rise? ... *Sorry i am drunk and edited few words

6:33 I too use to think a thumb rest or accelerate a cut on a polymer gun was to apply downward pressure, but has the name implies it just to rest your thumb on.

As Frank Lloyd Wright put it: "Eliminate the inessential."

Changed my grip to float the thumbs recently. Better results and my gun locks back on empty. Wild.

I actually went back to shooting with thumbs off the gun, driving my dominant hand into my support hand. My support hand pulls into my dominant hand. I feel more relaxed this way. More importantly, I don't find myself adjusting my grip between shots. Painting my thumbs forward feels less natural to me.

Thumb rest for me…. It helps me grip the gun better with my support hand. It keeps me from. Gripping too tight with my dominant hand. It definitely doesn’t affect my reload in any way. I don’t think about my grip much. I’m also shooting at a pretty high level. Shooting is the easy part. It’s moving that I need work on.

But, instagrammers told me that stippled “accelerator” thumb pad cuts are for controlling recoil. And they have hype montages of them shooting steel plates. Whom should we trust?

I always try to scrunch my thumb into the frame, I think it can indeed help. However, every time I review my footage of a stage, I notice I always end up floating my thumbs once I'm focused on other things, so I think it's more natural and maybe I should just embrace it. I've wasted a lot of time trying to engrain a specific hand position, when really I think I just need to engrain proper pressures and let my hand position be where it wants to be. Doing what's natural would be consistent as well.

With the wrist straight, I find that I can grip down my support hand even harder than wrists canted forward.

If I use thumb pressure it drives the barrel and creates an inconsistent recoil. Flagging my thumbs I get a tried and true up and down recoil. You cannot stop recoil, it needs to be consistent instead. That being said, my dot doesn't leave the window either way.

The only time my firing hand thumb applies some pressure to the gun is if I'm running a manual safety gun. I rest the thumb on the safety to stop it being inadvertently activated by my support hand. Not an ideal solution. On my production guns I use a flat safety to remove that problem.

I feel seen! I’m an okay shooter, definitely far from the best, but I’ve tried the aggressive thumbs forward thing and just could NOT make it work. I’ve settled on a very similar grip to what you have where my thumbs just kinda hang out. I’ve seen every aspect of my shooting improve tremendously since I stopped trying to force myself into doing the exaggerated thumbs forward grip.

Jerry Miculek in response to what to do what your thumbs said "do nothing". But as you point out, a large majority of the trainers are preaching thumb pressure and forward cant. Most from the tactical side. But IMHO i agree with you. Shooting accurately and fast dos not need that. I think counter argument is if in gunfight need to grip as tight as possible so gun not ripped from hands. Curious to hear your thoughts on the thumb evolution. More importantly, I was using the thumb pressure (my MR920L has the "gas pedal") but i found like you said. Often pushes to right, barrel does not come down from muzzle rise, and if get it just right hard to keep the correct amount of pressure when shooting several mags in a comp. I started to notice when wrists more natural and thumbs not pressuring slide the hits faster and better (dot tracking back), but was not willing to acknowledge what my timer and eyes were seeing and saying thinking I was luckily getting a better result with bad technique. Last week your grip explanation gave me the push to practice intentionally what you suggested and it was faster and easier to track the dot. It travelled consistently up and down accurately and in tight splits. Sorry for long explanation but thought you might want to hear how your advice was successfully implemented by a reader. Thanks for all the detailed training advice. Now i need to get some resistance bands and attach to my thumbs.

I have been experimenting with a floaty thumb lately. I also found that my pistol comes back to zero better when I have a more vertical grip with my support hand.

Anyone who has normal sized hands and uses a 2011 or double stack 1911 understands this.

I’ve arrived at the floaty thumb solution myself.

Yes! Ask any pro or high amateur golfer how big a deal thumb activity is. Golf club controlled entirely by 2 hand grip, like handgun. Let those thumbs be idle.

The harder I grip with my support hand the more dot movement I experience.

Experienced this with Beretta 92x (not my gun) applying pressure on that little shelf on the holdopen. Very inconsistent results in terms of accuracy. The change in how the gun behaves is minimal (almost on "believing" side of perception).

I can’t use my thumbs without steering the gun. I was told it was a training issue when in fact it’s a bio mechanical issue. Also, end range ulnar flexion is unnecessarily fatiguing as this does not help “lock” the wrist. The knees can lock, but if the knee joint was like the wrist joint, walking and standing for long periods would be nearly impossible.

I hold the gun so when I pull the trigger the aim is not disrupted. And when the gun fires it recoils, the sights lift and returns consistently and predictably so I can shoot again without much, if any clean up of the aim. I do have the skateboard tape on my glock. I don't push inward but it is an index point to achieve a consistent grip.

A cranked forward support hand grip ends up giving me elbow tendonitis issues.

I also noticed that I’m so used to putting rightward pressure with my support thumb that when I took it off I can’t find my dot instantly anymore it’s to the left out of view due to the lack of pressure of my support hand

I have had better results with my grip from making sure my thumbs are spaced away from the slide. They don’t do anything at all. Sometimes I forget to do it, not ingrained yet.

I don’t roll my wrist forward but I’ve been trying to remove my thumb. I can’t seem to get as strong of a grip pressure without the thumb though. I can’t tell if it’s a mental thing though or if it’s the way I torque my hand. But I do know I’m pressing in or down with the thumb depending on how the support hand lands. What’s odd I’d that it doesn’t affect my shots as far as I can tell. I think when I dry fire I focus a lot on grip and i honestly believe I apply more pressure in dry fire than in live fire. Maybe this is why my thumb isn’t effecting my live fire because in live maybe I’m not pushing nearly a as hard with the thumb. Guess it’s time to record some shots and try to diagnose this. I can’t explain it but I shoot differently in a match with movement rather than how I shoot static. I’m more relaxed moving and more tense when shooting completely static is what I think is happening.