Not a problem. Glad you liked it all.

Where do I find the link for the spreadsheet?

Rob Keene it’s in the description.

LOL. Yes, the pride of ownership will drive us to make it better and better.

New BOM powered by wind /wireless connection ~2K

So true. There is a large level of pride owning and caring for a plane.

And scheduling conflicts!

Was it costly?

@@mplondon1264 Depends on the definition. I bought a Comanche 250 as it fit my mission and I knew the previous owner and history of the plane. There are cheaper options. Insurance is expensive for complex planes

@@tomedgar4375 I'm looking into private lessons but I was wondering how simple it is to own a plane.

I agree. Hopefully I'll pull the trigger next year. Was going to do it this year, but RONA had something to say about that.

Believe it or not, these arguments were in the original script, but were removed in the end to help focus the video and maintain a more high level overview. But, they are still apart of another video we're working on on why you should own your own plane. =)

Wait! You can fly at night with just a private pilot license? You don't need the instrument rating for that?

@@landen99 , Yes you can, You actually need 3 hours of night flying in order to get your license

Which fbo is pressuring you to fly in bad weather?

​@@ethanswimmer1287 I'll let my female A&P friends know, lol

Honestly, taking care of your own plane is a lot easier. I managed a club for about 2 years. When that planes flying, things come at you fast. When its just you, its so much better.

Thank you for the complement. Thats literally our goal with most our videos. Glad you liked it!

Not a problem. I hope the spreadsheet helps!

Good luck! Glad you found it helpful. =)

Glad you liked it! I learned a lot myself when I made this one.

You’re welcome. Glad you found it valuable!

DEFINITELY!!!

Thanks! I had fun making this one. It’s a question a lot of people ask.

No problem. Glad it helped. =)

Hope it helps!

No problem! Glad you enjoyed it.

LoL. But if there’s a will, there’s a way!

Lol

Glad you enjoyed it! Hope it helps!

Glad you liked the spreadsheet. Every plane is different on ownership costs. We just got another plane for the club and it blew the engine within 30 hours. Our other plane has been going strong for 4 years and 800 hours.

Oh I totally agree. I didn't want to get too deep into the details on maintenance and costs of ownership. This was just supposed to be a comparison between renting and buying. Now, I'm planning on a buying a plane video soon. I'll be doing a deep dive into the buying aspects in that one.

So true. I would say that's a lifestyle choice. =)

Around here it's a year, but there's all kinds of space at the airport 20 minutes away. I'm just lucky to be in a area that has a lot of airports.

@@flywiththeguys Nice that is the way it should be! Everything is so spread out here in colorado. I might consider getting this good deal on a hanger over at GXY though. I guess I will just drive an hour to fly an hour haha!

@NonyaBusiness! That would be awesome. The airport community 20 minutes south of me is going for around a million, it is insane!

You rarely find in these discussions how unbelievably convenient it is to live in an airpark and fly your airplane out of your front yard. Although I paid for my hangar along with the house and land that money is not being burned up in rent. I don’t have to drive any distance at all to get to my plane and it’s easy to work on it, clean it or take it out for a spin in my free time. A lot of people do not realize there are many airpark options located near them and many of them are affordable. I think the airpark lifestyle is truly one of the best aviation lifestyle options out there and is a total game changer when it comes to owning an airplane.

Jeff Swartwood get some land build a home and airstrip all in one. That would be ideal

Glad it was helpful!

Thanks, and thanks for watching.

Thanks! There are more pros and cons, these are just the major ones.

Fly With The Guys I’m just a few hours away from my private check ride. I can’t imagine having to keep renting at the prices I’m currently paying...it’s outrageous

@@DanCoastie I was chatting with someone over on reddit about his plane rental costs. He says they are nice 172 with round dials and a GPS, but it's costing him $220 an hour wet. I just... I cant even.... He needs to find a new flight school. Oh and make sure to check out our video on the private pilot checkride. Good information in that one!

Fly With The Guys I’m flying a PA-28 wet for $155/hr plus instructor cost of $64. It’s the only 141 school in town and I’ll be using them to get my instrument with my GI bill

No problem. Thanks for watching!

Thanks!

I know right!? Good luck in your aviation journey!

This is true! Airplanes have been appreciating as well. 172s are starting to cost as much as 182s.

I'll have to add that one to my list. Thank you!

Absolutely! I didn't want to get too deep into the details and summed this up with saying you have money tied up in a plane until you sell it. Airplane values are on the rise.

Fly With The Guys still a great chart, best comparison out there ...great job.

There are a lot of ways to look at the money you spend on the plane itself as an asset. I'll be doing a buying a plane video soon that should take a lot of this into account.

LOL. We all know a Steve. =)

Both very nice looking aircraft.

Oh man, the Beaver is a beautiful one! Some day i want to have my own AT6 Texan/Hardvard, but It's just a dream.. . At the time!

This is a BIG con for me. I didn't include it in the list, but I should have.

Wise words

Thanks!

That's another way to look at it. Sharing is a good way to lower your cost depending on the mission.

Get your commercial license, and you can charge whatever you want! :) Not sure if it would work, but if you own the plane, maybe you can charge 'car shuttle' fees to airport from home, and similar?

The rate problem seems to always be compounding. With the Red Rocket build I feel like I'm finally going to be able to just have fun!

Good choice! Get your training done in something inexpensive, then get the seaplane add on later. It'll help more then you think. =)

Fly With The Guys Thanks for replying. I see plenty older ( 1960-1980’s ) single engine planes going for $13,000-$30,000. Is there a risk in buying or should get something in the 90’s?

@@bahamasking2063 There's no risk as long as it has been maintained well and had the logs to back it up. SOmething with a good mid time engine is always nice. Never buy something close to needing to be replaced, those are usually the really cheap ones. But remember every aircraft is built for a purpose. Just find one that suits your needs for now and later.

Fly With The Guys Thank you so much for all the info

Controller and trade-a-plane are a good place to start

Traderonline has an Aero Trader section and I have seen planes listed on Facebook Marketplace.

Depends on the club. Some cost more in monthly dues than financing a plane, then you still have to rent them. I should do a video on partnerships though.

Glad you enjoyed it

Some clubs or lease backs are really good ways to get your plane paid for. We're working on a video for that.

Its generally based of the Tach or Hobbs meter. Some rental operations and clubs charge extra fees for taking the plane places for extended periods of time, like overnight, because it's lost revenue when they charge by the hour. So it all really depends.

@@flywiththeguys hey thanks for the info. Soon to begin my venture towards piloting.

Thank you!

Goddammit Steve!

We kind of cover that when we talk about flight clubs, but we could have done a better call out directly addressing it. You see, you have an on paper hourly rental cost, but what you need to look at is your true hourly rental cost. You get this buy adding up all your rental costs for the year and divide it by the number of hours flown. Going back to your scenario, I'm not aware of any rental operation or club that doesn't charge a minimum daily fee for taking a plane on an extended vacation because they are technically loosing money from other potential renters. These charges would actually increase your true hourly rental cost and may move things in favor of buying a plane. Good catch though!

It has its appeal. Honestly, I want one for my recreational flying, but for everything else I do it may not be right. So torn...

No problem!

Thanks! I hope you find the spreadsheet helpful. Good luck on your test! Remember, passing is passing.

I find owning a plane very rewarding. Even now I spend time taking care of one thats not even mine and I love it.

LOL. I'm not. I've just been knee deep in this stuff for the last few years. It's a big question a lot of people ask and don't really understand the aspects of it. Granted, I don't fly enough to warrant buying a plane, but I still want my own.

Great choice! Everyones needs are different and it's not always a numbers game. 130 miles round trip is a beast 3 times a week.

You're welcome

I've heard of places charging a daily minimum if you rent a plane for an overnight trip. This is to recover potential lost income from missed rentals. Local flights, they usually only charge you for flight time during your scheduled rental. Where you're renting from seems more like the odd ball out on this one.

@@flywiththeguys Thanks for the reply even after 3 years this video posted!! You are correct. if you planning on cross country and stay at destination for few days, owning a plane would be better. plus, if you feel like something you don't like the plane and want to upgrade, you can just buy whatever avionics you want to upgrade and just upgrade whereas rented plane, you can't do that.

I'm going to make a video on partnerships and clubs eventually, and this will for sure be something I'll be talking about. Thank you for the comment!

The future time value of money is always a consideration. The owner of the aircraft has an advantage over the renter since they can choose to rent out the aircraft as a source of income and/or to cover operating costs, when not being used by the owner. This is a common practice among aircraft and yacht owners of all net worth levels. I have flown on a number of planes owned by high level executives and celebrities who have gone this route. Also, since the aircraft would then become a business asset, all of the costs associated are tax deductible and the purchase price of the aircraft can be depreciated over time. In the video example, using the estimated yearly total cost of ownership and the estimated hourly rental cost, the owner would only have to rent the plane out for a total of 53 hours per year to break even on the plane. Anything beyond that would be "profit." With only an additional 38 hours of rental income, you have made your 10% return on the original $50,000. So, as long as you can rent it out for 91 hours per year, you have an aircraft for free and $5000 in gross annual profit. Of course the operating costs, and other amounts would change based on the hours rented, but this is just an over-simplistic example. This is a much better and predictable way to generate a 10% return than in the markets, since an airplane can be insured for zero risk of capital loss, whereas a portfolio can lose 100% of value or more, with no recourse. Cheers!

@@thatsrich944 This is interesting. I'm currently in the market for an aircraft and this seems like a great idea. Do you happen to have any resources you could point me to on doing this?

​@@airops423 I don't, unfortunately. But, I would guess that you can check with some air charter companies. Since they are arranging flights for hire, they would be the ones to coordinate rentals for you. They probably own some of their own aircraft and also source from private parties like yourself. They also provide/source pilots for the rental, if not rented by a pilot. Nearby flight schools are also a possibility, depending on model/type... if you are fine with students operating your plane. You could try to do it on your own, doing the marketing, setting up the agreements, handling all the mechanical/legal issues, but that will be a lot more work. All depends on what you want to do. I think if I were going to do it, I would research a lot up front, put together a business plan, and likely purchase a brand new aircraft, with some of my own money, private investors and/or a loan. I would make sure over the projected service life of the aircraft, that the purchase price, recurring costs (maintenance, repairs, inspections, storage, insurance, ferrying), other expenses, and my expected hours of flight each year would all be covered. It would also be a good idea to shoot for a decent return/profit. If you have investors, they will be looking to get a return on investment, so a loan may be a better option. Of course if you have or are planning to attain your CPL (or CPC), then you can fly your own customers, too. In the end, if you could find a way just to break even and cover the cost of your own flights, then you've saved a ton of money, flown for free and own your own aircraft! Hope that helps.

@@thatsrich944 Interesting.. I'm familiar with the leaseback model for flight schools, but I definitely don't want a bunch of students using the aircraft (not to mention that would quickly drive up the maintenance costs). Not sure how popular chartering a single engine aircraft is, unless perhaps I purchase an SR22 or something. My budget is like $80K. I was considering purchasing a nice Cherokee 180 or something similar with a few partners. Purchasing a Cherokee by myself and doing a leaseback with a flight school is definitely doable as an alternative, but then it will get beaten up by a bunch of students. Chartering Cherokees doesn't seem particularly popular. I guess that leaves me with looking for my own renters?

Most rental operations look at that as a loss so they have rules against it or have daily minimum rates when you take the plane overnight, regardless of flight. Our club charges 2 hour minimum each day, which is generous in reality. The idea is they could be making more on rentals throughout the day, but now you're occupying it so they cant.

Yes and no. You can get your total cost per hour or rental cost per hour, then remove everything on the data tab that involves maintenance and compare the numbers. That's about as good as it's going to get with this spreadsheet.

Much appreciated. Thanks for replying.

Thats dependent on how the rental or club charges. Our club charges a per day minimum the plane is gone. Regardless of if you fly it or not. If you exceed the fee in flight time, it's waved. This is because of potential lost revenue. This is typically done to keep people from week long rentals that rack up 4 flight hours. Thats why you would take the total you spent renting, or the total you spend on club dues, fees, and rates as the comparison.

😂 I know right! Oddly enough, a guy joined our club named Steve and he books the plane now when I want to fly.... Karma?

I've started rebuilding a plane. It's fun, daunting, and rewarding.

Absolutely. Some rental operations cut corners to save money. There’s one in my area that refuses to update their Garmin GPS because they don’t want to pay for the subscription.

One way to own an airplane and actually make money While doing it Is to Least the airplane to A flight school You see the airplane I rented that I lost the Engine in Was a Cessna 152 that I bought For $1500 put an engine in it And leased it to a flight school

And I'll get my Corsair F4U somehow. www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/47839523/1951-chance-vought-f4u-corsair

Ever hear of the T-51? Its a poor mans P-51, still looks, and sounds amazing

Yeah but it’s just not the same lol. My a full size replica or something like that.

And I'll get my mooney!

Considering the going rates for rentals these days... you'd be paying about 18K in just the plane and fuel alone. If it was me going that route, I would seriously consider it. Outside that calculator I made, check out this video. It'll help understand the numbers better. Going rates for a 172 right now is around 140-150 hr/wet. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/pLpmla-H29iyc2g.html

Glad it was able to help. Love the Tiger. =)

I've seen people struggle on phones. Works great on a real version of excel.

Totally true! I think we danced around it a little in the lifestyle section. The freedom to fly when and where you want.

Josh Henry you still type in the numbers and it will show you the cost.!it will be higher than the rental and only you can decide if it’s worth it. For me I like to rent it’s a no brainer at 25 / 35 hours a year. If someone gave me a plane it would still cost more than renting one. Airports should be required to rent hanger space for aviation related operations only. Most GA airports have long waiting list you can die waiting to get one.

It really comes down to the mission. You should buy the plane you need 95% of the time and rent the plane you want 5% of the time. For me, I dont need 1000+ LBS of useful load for most of my flights, let alone the extra seats. I usually only fly with myself and one passenger.

@@flywiththeguys yep, that's my issue and perhaps my answer as well.... Since we can only rent a 172 and the limitations of the load there, I'm not sure what kind of mission my family would be able to do if we had something with a larger useful load. I know we like the idea of having the freedom of our own, but without a real good way to "test drive" that, that's were my question comes in.

@@joshhenry1545 I have 6 members in my family and have contemplated a 210 or Saratoga. After calculating the fuel burn and air speed, it didn't make sense for even 10% of my flying. We just never all go together. As far as test driving, I ask a lot of questions and have been in a lot of different aircraft because of it. You may not be able to rent it, but you can usually get someone who owns one to show you it and possibly even take you for a ride if you ask.

Depends on the club or rental operation. Realize that hours the plane isn't flying but booked is potential revenue lost. My club charges a 2 hour per day minimum regardless of flight if you take it overnight. Some charge more of what they lost letting you take it out that long. I've heard some clubs charge over 1K a day to make it prohibitive.

@@flywiththeguys the overnight rate I believe will be the deciding factor on ownership vs. Rental in my situation as far as commuting 600 miles a couple time a month

@@flywiththeguys btw thanks for the reply! I know its difficult to always reply on my own channel but I try!

@@AmericanPiddler No problem. I really do try to help where I can.

Good points. I was going to go through the car analogy. The average car payment is $530 per month. The average insurance payment is $125 per month. That’s $7860 just to own it, let alone drive it. But, someone would argue that a car is a necessity. But you’re right, there’s Uber and Lift. It’s all a lifestyle choice in my opinion. In the end I didn’t include this to make sure it was more of a high level overview and stay out of the weeds on each side. I like your comment though. Very thoughtful.

1 and 3 are kind of the same. But all good points! I've been renting forever and and hate treating the plane like a ticking time bomb. You NEVER know what the last person did to it, you only see new "damage" when they get back. Like tires, scratches, dings, and hanger rash.

@@flywiththeguys I have been lucky because I bought an SLSA (Flight Design) new to train and checkride in...the wife trained in a flight school and trained in a 'used' and beat up Flight Design. That was the plane that nearly killed her and her CFI when a throttle cable stuck on a flight one day and the CFI had to cut the engine and still make the airfield. When we both got our tickets we bought our current plane, a new Cirrus SR22T. So except for the intro flights neither of us has ever rented. When we first got the Flight Design we rented hangar space and quickly saw how your 'baby' can be damage by others putting their aircraft away next to yours. So we bought hangars too. I sympathize with those that have to rent plane and hangar space. They are more patient than we are...

Renting is usually a per flight hour thing. Every rental operation is different, but If you take a plane for the weekend you usually have to flight hours plus pay a per day charge, even if you don't fly, to cover potential lost revenues. I've heard this being anywhere from 200-300 per day.

@@flywiththeguys thanks for the prompt response. I really love your videos, they are quite informative and is the push I needed to finally put my feet into aviation. Thanks a ton!

LOL.

No joke! I want to make a video on this. And I'm considering buying an experimental right now.

@@flywiththeguys I would love to hear your thoughts on the subject.

@@flywiththeguys You should make that video.... pros and cons. the advantages of experimental are huge, but so are the cons. I've done it both ways.

Depends on the part. Like some of mine I'm never using again... selling those.

Thank you and I appreciate your comment. I maintain the plane I fly, but I’m unique in how I pay for my airplane habits.

Dodging isn’t the right word. Its different everywhere you go so couldn’t put a number to it. More expensive to fly in CA vs the middle of no where Kansas, not to mention the type of aircrafts available. In my area you can get a 172 for about $135 on average. 150/152 for about $100. Most places don’t like posting prices, they want people to call. Flight schools like working with program pricing.

They can be! As long as the partnership is a good one. I've heard horror stories from people over the year. One guy up and took the plane to get new avionics and expected everyone to chip in thousands. I'm down for a good partnership though. I've been trying to find one that isn't trying to get a new partner because something broke on the plane.....

Solid advice. Granted, I have been seeing rentals going up substantially too. My club just increased the hourly rate.

@@flywiththeguys I'm about to rent a 172 for $130 that I've never rented before. I hope their website is up to date and I'm not told it's more than that.

I know what you mean. Don't remember if I even got into that discussion in this video, but it's a valid point. Our club charges 2 hours per day minimum if you take it overnight somewhere, and that doesn't even begin to cover lost revenue on some of the planes.

I'm where you're at. We just purchased a plane to rebuild and I cant wait to stop messing around with the club schedule.

@@flywiththeguys I bought mine while still working on training for my PPL, just after I started solo-ing. Turned out to be great timing since shortly after I bought it, the school had one of their 172s go out of service indefinitely. It was so great not having to be part of the subsequent mad scramble to find availability, I was able to just go fly whenever time and weather permitted. Ended up with nearly 90 hours by the time I did my check ride just because I was able to go flying so much (and subsequently had ZERO issues on the check ride) :)

@@AlyssaM_InfoSec Amazing! Tell me if you agree with this video, well the part I set it to for you. The video is on saving money getting your PPL - kzfaq.info/get/bejne/pLpmla-H29iyc2g.html

@@flywiththeguys oh wow, that's an interesting thought and yeah you could do that. Although I think you'd have to look at the cost of insurance and hangar/tie-down space as part of the instructional costs. But then again, with the way aircraft prices are still going, you might be able to sell the plane for more than you bought it for and make up that extra.

True! I swear I talked about that, but it could have been in another video when we talked about getting your certificate for less.

My 14 year old said Mowing Lawns. But really it's about balancing your finances and what you spend your money on. A lot of people chase new cars, better electronics, or acquire huge amounts of debt so they can live a lifestyle outside their means. Make good financial decisions, work hard, and you'll get there.

I'm sure you're not the Steve I'm referring to.....

@@flywiththeguys I thought it was funny as hell! Love the channel!

Me too

LOL. It was just an example. And it all comes down to how much you borrow and for how long.

Just found 3.25% on a Home Equity Line of Credit for 20 years. My credit is excellent, so that helped. Bad news is it is variable rate...kinda scary these days.

Thats a hard question to answer. I know a bit about it and how it would work, but there are SO many variable it would be hard to explain here. What you would want to do is look at setting up your own rental operations and what that looks like at your airport as far as rules and regulations. Or you could offer it as a leaseback. Now, do they make money? ..... Having managed a club for the better part of years all I can say is it depends on a LOT of variables.

Thats fine...

AGREED!

Good effort, it was up at deer valley from the observation deck. I need to get over to falcon soon though.

I want to do aerobatics.....

That's a lot of recreational or training hours in a month. Averaging at least 2 hours a day all month long. It depends on what you fly and for how long you'll keep flying those types of hours.

@@flywiththeguys how much does it typically take for reaching 1500 flight hours in order to become an airline pilot?

@@jad2026 You shouldn't buy a plane to gain enough hours to get an ATP. You'll spend WAY to much money. It takes time to build up to it, and regional airlines typically finish up your training once you hit a certain number of hours. It would be best to get your Commercial and Instructor certificate and work at a flight school so they pay you to build hours. Still then, it takes a few years to get to the number you need. BUT, working at a flight school is good. Some of them offer pipelines to the regional airlines. Call one of them for more information on this, otherwise you'll spend close to 120K chasing 1500 hours on your own.

@@flywiththeguys Thanks for your help, you earned a sub.

It would greatly reduce the cost per hour for sure. You just have to be sure to buy a good plane. Check this video out too - kzfaq.info/get/bejne/pLpmla-H29iyc2g.html

It can be, but where theres a will theres a way. I got mine for less than 5K, and it took me 3 years. Heres some perspective on it, and no I didn't buy a plane. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/pLpmla-H29iyc2g.html

ME TOO!

Depends on the area your in. A 172 typically rents for $115 to $135 an hour wet.

I know what you mean! I was there once. Thought I wasn't even going to make it through my training.

After renting for so long and taking care of others planes, I really want to own. Plus, I'm fairly sure I would break even.

Yea, I didn't call that out well enough. Yes. Maintenance is the real reason.