In a way, aren't we all the timeless children?

"The Timeless Children is an episode where The Master takes The Doctor to Gallifrey in order to show her a PowerPoint presentation that ends with a slide saying 'You were adopted'." - Jay Exci

"Don't you know who it is?" "It's me." "No, *laughs insanely*, it's me." It would have made so much more sense for the Master to be the Timeless Child: Gives them a reason to have burned down Gallifrey, gives them an explanation for having returned now and always, justifies their eternal unquenchable rage, implicates the doctor in their suffering, gives the Doctor ego problems from feeling inferior...

If the Master was the timeless child: -What he glimpsed in the time vortex that turned him insane was the previous torturous experiments -Missy (who had been redeemed partially) had a reason to become a mass murderer again -Gives him a reason to have burnt Gallifrey -Justifies his megalomania, anger, and desire for revenge on the universe -Makes the Doctor involved in his eternal torment, which didnt start with the drums after all, but Tecteun, as she can only regenerate due to his torture -Makes the Doctor inferior

the Master should have been the Timeless Child, it works with their character and might actually make them sympathetic by making them someone who was forcibly adopted by the gallifreyans, cruelly experimented on and then used even further for various ends, including the drumbeat later seen in the end of time. You could also much more easily explain continuity issues since the Master has a less complicated continuity: that time the Master ran out of regenerations? That was an experiment by the Time Lords where they tried to cut off their ability to regenerate. It could also just explain the Master’s capacity for survival, might make them a much more nuanced and sympathetic villain and, frankly, actually has a theme to it, that being the subversion of that same theme of the chosen one, making the Doctor’s decision to stand against them all the more powerful, or even their earnest attempts to help them that much more powerful

So let's just look at what this reveal changed: - The Doctor is now less relatable - The Doctor is no longer in danger

imagine having a show about an alien with two hearts and incredible amount of inteligence, can regenarte and has a ship that can travel any where in space and time and going " we need to make them more special"

What if the master was the timeless child and that realization and torture drove him insane and that why he never dies and always pops back up and it would explain why he'd want to destroy galifrey

One of the things ruined by this arc is River Song who became a time-lady by being conceived through the time vortex which is where the doctor said his people gained regeneration

Exactly what I thought: have no problems with the timeless child, I have problems with the fact that it's the Doctor.

Also Clara went through the doctor's entire timeline wouldn't she see the doctor's past even if he forgot it

The whole thing of the Master burning down Gallifrey felt so Chibnall, too. The Master has been a multifaceted character under Davies and Moffat who the Doctor believed had remnants of good. They were a character who wanted their old Friend back in 12. Who 12 dedicated a series to trying to rehabilitate. Who 10 had a heart-to-heart to about Gallifrey perishing. Who took on the Time Lords and let the Doctor stand aside in the End of Time. It feels like Chibnall didn't watch any of that when he decided the Master would just raze Gallifrey to the ground because he found out he had part of the Doctor's DNA. It would have been more interesting if he burned everything out of empathy for the Doctor or because he felt like it was *his* life that had been a lie.

the clip of Jodie laughing outside of the show was more in character than any episode she's done

Next showrunner will reveal that the Master either lied or misunderstood the truth. Mark my words.

The Master should've been the Timeless Child. It would explain his obsession with immortality, he always instinctually feeling that he should never die. His deep, unyielding hatred of the Timelords. Hell, make Rassalon more of a villain by saying the drumbeat implanted into the Master's head was what helped jar his memory loose. It would also work with his relationship with The Doctor, Time Lords being the thing he hates the most but finding a truly good friend in one and the conflict of feelings.

I liked how the doctor was just a random guy who ran away and wasn't anyone really special. He would eventually become special because of what he would do and how long he has been around.

I know I am a year late but I just want to say that this "Timeless Child" thing sounds like it was written by a 15 year old who ran out of ideas

Rule 1 : The Doctor Lies Rule 1a: The Master Lies This is the only way I am coping.

I hope to god the next show runner reveals that the Master lied and instead was talking about himself as that would make far more sense.

The timeless child allowing the Doctor to regenerate because they saw all the people the Doctor helped would be so amazing. Why is every fan’s idea better than Chibnall’s?

Honestly the idea of the timeless child is really cool, but having the doctor be the timeless child ruins it.

The only good thing we got out of The Timeless Child was that we now know that Rowan Atkinson is a confirmed regeneration of the Doctor

The timeless child absolutely ruins so much for The Doctor. They're extraordinary for choosing to be different not for being born different GODDAMMIT

I have one objection. You say the timeless child ruins the doctor because the doctor was "just another time Lord" but that's incorrect. The most fascinating thing, the thing that gets ruined, is that the Doctor was a shitty time Lord. He was below average. He barely passed his classes, and barely got into the academy. Every other time Lord loathed to see him. And yet, I can't help but feel that this revelation is only an extension of Moffitt's run in which every Arc focused on why the doctor was "so important." And pretty much painted the picture that all of space and time revolved around him.

What if the Timeless Child was Susan? This would fit in with what we know: the Doctor running away in a stolen Tardis taking a girl with her who may not actually be his real granddaughter. Finding out about the Child in an attempt to do the right thing and free the creature to give it a proper childhood with family and learning, could be something very Doctor-like and fit eith the established timeline.

"About six years ago everyone was annoyed the moon turned out to be an egg." *SIX YEARS AGO!?*

3rd Doctor: Had no infinite regeneration but still prefered to lose one of his lives instead of letting any other people to go to the Planet of Spiders cuz it would kill them; 5th Doctor: Had no infinite regeneration and yet gave Peri the only antidote to the disease that was killing both of them and lost one more life; 9th Doctor: had no infinite regeneration, but chose to sacrifice his 9th life to save Rose ; 10th Doctor: had no infinite regeneration but gave his 10th life to save Willfred from the radiation; 11th Doctor: was going to die of old age stuck in a planet, but still decided to protect the people to the very end; 13th Doctor: Has infinite regeneration but still prefer to let an old man(who suffered his entire life in the Cyber-wars when he finaly had the chance to be free and live the rest of his life happily) to sacrifice himself in her place without a thinking twice.

The show has had the same problems with companions too, making them too special. That’s why I loved Rose so much. She was ordinary, relatable, and incredible.

I think the timeless child should have been a villain like the master. Ending in a story where to stop them the doctor gives up on regeneration to show the timeless child that the timelords can change and are willing to change. She ofc would get them back because the show has to go on but that way the doctor would still be someone who is special through theire actions.

"forcing the child to regenerate" Repeatedly murdering.

The real timeless child was the friends we made along the way

The concept of the first Doctor being the one who experimented on her is a pretty good one, but I think it'd be so much better if The Master was the Timeless Child. That way we would have a villain who is infinity stronger than the hero, and that would make things so much more interesting. Imagine the Doctor now knowing that her ultimate nemesis is immortal, the sense of dread she felt would have hit her and the audience so much harder. It would also explain why The Master was so angry at Gallifrey that he burned the whole planet to the ground. Feeling betrayed enough as he already was, this new found information would have tipped him over the egde (considering he spent a lifetime as a decaying husk).

Instead of the Master the Timeless Child should have been an independent character and the antagonist of the story. A forgotten primordial prisoner that escape and wanted revenge on all Time Lords. It could also have potential to have several ancient prisoners and new villains in the series that escaped.

Everyone's trashing on the finale but in just annoyed that captain Jack was only in the series for 10 BLOODY MINUTES. WHat was the point in him being there?

Could've been worse, Ruth could've said "Hello, I'm [Doctor's real name]"

I feel like missy (the master) should have been the timeless child that’s why when he looked into the eye he went insane because that where he/she came from and when she finds out that’s when she starts her path of healing with Peter cappaldi

10th Doctor: "I'm not just a Time Lord. I'm the last of the Time Lords." Chibnall: "I'm about to ruin this man's whole career."

The Timeless Child as it's own character would've made an interesting villain for The Doctor to face on a reoccurring basis too. It would have every reason to want to exterminate every Time Lord

How does it feel to live long enough to see all your favorite franchises go down in flames?

The idea of the Master being compassionate towards the Timeless Child could have multiple avenues that tie back into & further the arc Missy went on in series 10. There are SO many possibilities, it feels like Chibnall chose the worst road to travel

I’ve been watching so many videos about this recently, I love how much the Doctor Who fandom has turned against the Timeless Child

That's it folks, Whowians finally got their own "cursed child'. Let's just pretend this didn't happen.

Would make more sense if the Master was the Timeless Child. A nemesis that cannot be killed permanently and has good reason to be 'broken' mentally.

I always thought an interesting idea would be if The Doctor’s regenerations got more volatile with time. Right now, they can fuck up the Tardis. What if, in a couple more, they could destroy a moon? Perhaps The Doctor themselves isn’t worried about their death, but is instead worried for how much damage their death may cause.

Chibnall really is so talented, because his decisions are just one alteration from actually being compelling, but in every episode it is like he takes the one element that would challenge the doctor, and removes it, to create the most plain and boring plots possible. It is the kind of incompetence that feels deliberate.

Can’t wait for the next reveal that every human looking person in the entire universe is actually the Doctor.

In "Angels take Manhattan" the doctor heals River's broken wrist with his regeneration energy..... With the timeless child reveal, he can essentially heal all of his companions and anyone who gets injured around him... forever..... with 0 risk of running out of regeneration energy......

Wouldn’t it make way more sense if The Master was the Timeless Child? Him burning Galifry would be a completely understandable reaction, and why Missy had a decent redemption just to turn into the Evil Master again

So forget about Rassalon being one of the founders of timelord society and alone knew the secret to perpetual regeneration

Two things imo would've made this ok: 1) The Master is the Timeless Child; his reaction of genocide/hatred would've been justified. 2) The Timeless child isn't her, it's just someone and as you said, pose the Question "Is it right for me to use this stolen power?". This also could link to number 1.

Hope they retcon this by making it the Master’s biggest troll ever.

Also find it hilarious that the Doctor's entire arc from this earthshaking revelation is.... That she's the exact same person that she was before and that nothing has changed. Good on you, Chibnail. You fundamentally changed the very nature of the Doctor without changing a god damned thing about their personality or their character, nullifying the only interesting thing that could've come out of this retcon. We can only hope that this change is retconned in the same manner that you evoked it.

It would've made more sense with the Master as the Timeless Child and the Doctor as Tecteun. At some point, both their memories were wiped, but the underlying emotional dynamic between still somewhat intact, explaining both the Master's rage and his sense of attachment to the Doctor. RTD could still do this perhaps, making the initial reveal another one of the Master's head games. It wouldn't fill every plot hole, but it would go a ways towards fixing the mess that Chibnall created with this story arc.

Twist in the next season: The Master is actually the timeless child. His turn to evil is the result of his torture. He has lied to The Doctor as part of a diabolical plan.

In my mind, season 11 and 12 never happened, the last episode of Doctor who was Capaldi's finale.

Love people sharing their thoughts. Here's mine: Omega is the Child. That's how he survived falling into a black hole. Rassilon was a friend who discovered who Omega was and, already on a rise of power, tried to kill Omega so he could have Gallifrey unchallenged. When Omega tried to return and fought the Doctor he implanted some of his memories in the Doctor's head so he could have a link to the universe (like what Rassilon did with the Master). The reason why Brendon was part of the memories is a symptom of Omega's insanity, he lived for so long in isolation his history is spintered. In Brain of Morbius the mindbending threatened to expose Omega's plan so he tried to burn out both Morbius' and the Doctor's mind. Arc of Infinity allowed Omega to rewrite the matrix so he could keep his long term plan a secret. Shifting identities so suspicions wouldn't be created. Now Omega has a link to the universe that's now getting stronger perhaps he could contact people in the universe that would either sympathize with him or benifit from his power. Incidentally The Kassavan are Omega's creations who destroyed Gallifrey and tricked The Master into finding Omega's information and then telling the Doctor to strengthen the link to the universe. The plan in Spyfall was for Omega to convert Earth into Antimatter so he could have a stable world to live on. Like Zeta Minor. So Omega is ready to return and now could have allies on this universe (possibly Faction Paradox, who infiltrated the Celestial Intervention Agency by settingup a subgroup The Division)

I have a theory, what if the whole timeless child story was a gallifreyan self defense mechanism, I mean imagine daleks with the knowledge to create tardises

"What makes you so special!?" "Nothing, I'm just a kid from Brooklyn"

The writers are so bad at writing female characters they LITERALLY Clara'd the Doctor! *The Impossible Girl = The Timeless Child*

Heart breaking thing is. With the timeless child every death that the Doc had made was pointless. The 10ths feelings about dying are meaning less because it is always the moral choice to die if you have unlimited lives

Wow I hadn’t realized how interesting the Timeless Child becomes when they aren’t The Doctor. I want to see that hypothetical season where the Doctor goes searching for the god-like creature her species abused for power in hopes of forgiveness and to help free it if it might still be in captivity.

"I'm The Doctor." "Doctor Who?" "Doctor Skywalker!"

The Timeless Child should've been The Master, it wouldn't have necessarily made more sense, but it fits his character a whole lot more and would feed his ego to its absolute breaking point.

"Doctor, who ?" The question no one actually wanted an answer for. Because what the character stood for. Let alone an answer that basically says that the character is now the 'chosen one' in any sense. Yet they are getting that kind of answer from the actual show. Huh.

I thought the moon being an egg was amazing. My friend's hated me because id come up with plausible theories as to how it would work like in the show. Also if the Timeless Child had been The Master it could've been used to explain why out of everyone he was chosen by the Time Lords to become insane from the drumbeats of war, the heart beat of a Time Lord

The good thing is nobody is going to really care about this in 10 years. It'll be one of those things that was done in Doctor Who that was never revisited. Honestly no showrunner is gonna make a whole season surrounding this again, so it'll be one of those forgotten bits of canon like the doctor being half human in the past.

Here's a quick fix for doctor who, the master always lies, he lies everytime

Well good thing about this is because it’s just not cannon to me. Ignore it guys. Chibnall can’t control me, to me the show ended once 12 regenerated

I’m glad someone else sees that the most important part of a story arc, is simply the one thing: What does the character do, especially when the run into a similar problem that before was the wrong decision (it doesn’t have to be the same situation, just a similar choice of what is risked).

There was one simple change that could've made sense: Make the child the master. He already has a god complex, now he has shit to back it up

The master being the timeless child would be an INFINITELY better twist.

It would work really well if The Timeless Child was also the Nightmare Child from the Time War, because if I recall there was a time lord who became a monster due to a botched regeneration. It would make sense that if the Child was forced to regenerate endlessly, they chose to become a Lovecraftian Nightmare. Then The Timelords could have messed with the Matrix to suggest it was the Doctor who is the Child instead because they are responsible for their current predicament post time war

Chibnall is a great writer in my opinion and I really like his style in most of the shows he's done. That being said, the decision of the BBC to have him as a Doctor Who writer might be one of the biggest tragedies to have befallen the show.

"I've taken lives but I got worse I got clever, manipulated people into taking their own" - The Doctor

River song, got her regeneration powers just from trailing in the Tardis before being born. No time lord experimentation needed then....

You know what would be cool? The Master being the timeless child. That would explain why he killed everyone and also push the burden of being special on the antagonist. That would have worked so much better!

No one knew that the Doctor was the Timeless Child apart from Techteun, Rassilon and Omega (even Rassilon and Omega are in question)

The Spider-Man analogy was perfect.

Timeless Child: *exists* Everyone: "I'll Ignore that"

It would have been better if the master was the timeless child because that would have been way less predictable of a twist and give the master an actual reason to destroy gallifrey for what they did to him

Timeless Children was a one step too far for me. I can deal with the dreadful portrayal of the Master, I've seen it all before (parts of End of Time and the 80s were about as bad). I can deal with Gallifrey being destroyed *again* and in a much more stupid way for an even more stupid reason (bad plots and generally bad writing doesn't matter in the long run. It's happened before and will happen again). Hell, I can deal with just about any bad writing and subpar acting; it's all been done before. But this has fully changed Doctor Who, in a way that I feel is opposite to good. I've always said that I think the less we know about the Doctors past before running away and the less we know about Gallifrey and the Time Lords, the better. I think that element being shrouded in mystery is part of what's essential to the show. Hell, the name of the show implies a mysterious character that we don't know everything about. I've argued time and time again against finding out more about the Doctor's past and showrunners putting their stamp on the history of Who where it should be left alone. I hated that one Listen scene and Name of the Doctor, and those things that felt like such big deals to me pale in comparison to what's just been 'revealed' in the show. Not only are we given pretty much Gallifreys entire backstory, which honestly as much as I'd hate I'd still keep watching, but we've been given the Doctors full backstory, which, to add salt to the wound, completely fucks over how I view the Doctors character as well as Hartnells legacy. This is just...the opposite to how I like the show. I've been feeling so conflicted since it aired. For one, I'm glad this happened in this era. If it happened while I was still fully invested in the show I would have been heartbroken and very angry. I mean, if Hell Bent could get me going, who knows what this would have stirred. Luckily, series 11 and a lot of 12 already made me feel disconnected with the show enough to feel somewhat uncaring while watching. The problem is, this is the one step too far for me. I'm not sure if I'll keep watching. I had hope with the quality of some episodes this season but I just found almost every part of this episode awful, and even moreso what it's done to the show as a whole. I just really hope a showrunner completely undos all of this through a retcon, I don't even care how shitty a retcon it is. It's a shame because I feel as though I was one of the people defending Chibnall the most leading up to series 11, saying how Broadchurch and some of Torchwood is a great demonstration of his ability and we'll get something truly amazing. Little did I know that he'd make the blandest Who season since Davison followed by a finale the next season which makes what I hated about Moffats run look like nothing. I *want* the Doctor to be a random traveller who just decided to run away and we know barely anything about before he did so. I *want* Hartnells incarnation to be the first and for his development into the character we love to be an important staple of the show. I *want* to have Gallifrey be full of mystery beyond our basic understanding of the Time Lords. Not only did this episode give me the opposite of what makes this show so appealing and diminish what I love about the Doctors character and about Gallifrey, but it also gave such a truly shoddy backstory for the Doctor that I can't even excuse it as an amazing idea that I'm at least glad was told. I'm sorry this is so long and I doubt most of you care but for years Who was my favourite show, then Community gave it a run for its money and it was my joint favourite, while now I'm considering whether or not it should be in my top three. It's sad to feel my love for the show be stripped away, when Doctor Who is one of the biggest things that defined me as a person, and that helped me get through school. And it's so sad that since Timeless Children, I haven't even felt hate like I would after Hell Bent or a shite episode like In the Forest or Nightmare in Silver, I've just felt nothing, and I don't have any interest in what's next for the show. I really hope that my love for the show will one day be reignited and all of this can be forgotten. Sorry to be bleak but it's how I feel and I don't want to be forced to feel positively about this because I've never felt less positive about the show.

An interesting wrinkle: Andrew Cartmel actually publicly criticized the Timeless Child reveal recently. He said that The Cartmel Master Plan was something that they were mostly going to hint at and leave breadcrumbs for, not something that they were ever going to fully explain, hence why it was supposed to return mystery to the show. I find it interesting that even the person that Chibnall is ripping off thinks that this was executed horribly.

MY THEORY: RASSILON is the timeless child. he was already credited in classic who for having more regenerations and thought to be immortal. he is also partially credited for giving timelords regeneration. after the doctor kicked him off gallifrey he wanted revenge so like how he gave the master drums, he gave the doctor some of his memories when he looked into the vortex. multiple times in classic who the doctor would absentmindedly mention regenerations he never had and would sometimes say he stole the TARDIS and others say he built her. ruth was jenny-the doctors daughter which explained why thier DNA was the same. rassilon kidnapped her and messed with her head as well as giving her a matching TARDIS. he gave her memories of the doctor up to 12 which was the last doctor rassilon saw so she didnt regognise 13. he enterd the matrix (something that could only be done with rassilon's key) and hacked it which classic who proves is possible. he did all this for revenge on the doctor. during the war he became paranoid, petty and vindictive. 12 took away everything he worked for and rassilon is now an insane genius. Just my theory.

I love the idea that she was the scientist. Imagine if that first regeneration resulted in Hartnell. Wow, what a moment that would have been. They seem to have chose the worst possible outcome for the story.

I know I'm late to the party here, but you 100 % managed to voice the reason why I intensely disliked The Timeless Child.

Really, I just assume that The Master is lying. He's telling the Doctor all this just to fuck with her. Its the kind of thing he would do after all.

Honestly, if there had to be a timeless child it should've been the Master.

They should have made the Master the timeless child: Despite being a normal time-lord, The Doctor can stand on equal footing and pose a threat to such a powerful being. Or possibly introduce the timeless child as THE ONLY regenerating cyberman, not make a whole bunch. It would introduce the idea that it is sometimes too late to help some people, and that the child deliberately joined the cybermen in order to give up their trauma.

The Cartmel master plan is not necessarily about giving the Doctor a big backstory, it was simply to make the audience go “Doctor… Who???” and never explicitly reveal what they were saying. That’s why The Timeless Children (the episode) doesn’t work - it’s the Master narrating for 20 minutes.

The "Chosen One" concept is cheaper than dollar store trash, nowadays.

"They became a legend through who they were, not where they came from." Looking at you Rey Palpatine.

It so happens that both the doctor and the gallifrayans both have two Hearts. That makes no sense

Wouldn’t it be interesting if the Master was the Timeless Child and didn’t realize it? Perhaps he was so broken from all that torture and cruelty that it turned him into who he is. It would be interesting to see him react to learning this forgotten information about himself. The Master has been getting character development as Missy, perhaps we could have a moment where the Doctor shows empathy for the Master. Being the only 2 Timelords still around, it’d be nice to see them try to understand each other for once.

To summarize: The concept of the Timeless Child was great until they tied it into the Doctor themself.

Did the Master ever actually explain how he knew the child was the Doctor? Could he be lying? He's hardly a reliable narrator, and the Matrix was corrupted. I think there's enough ambiguity there that it could be retconed fairly easily!

The concept of the timeless child being completely unrelated and the doctor going off to find them and make amends is honestly the best possibility for this revelation, as it gives the doctor the moral questioning of all their previous incarnations, they would want to correct the misdeeds of their people and make amends with the child, and it could make for a very interesting finale where they finally meet the timeless child, and then the story that unfolds leads to them respecting the doctor, seeing the good they have done and encouraging them to continue to use the gift of regeneration. Infinitely a better concept then “you’re the chosen one”

I have no problem with the Doctor Being a reincarnation of the "Other" but the key there is "Reincarnation" meaning the doctor may have been a god in a previous life but is now, either by Fate or by choice an ordinary Timelord. The timeless Child however doesn't do that.

OK... retcon time lol: The Doctor isn't the Timeless Child, the Master just thinks he/she is because that's what the Matrix implied when he hacked into it. Everything else is true, as in the Child was helpless and unique, Tecteun (later Rassilon, also an immortal Time Lord founder) stole the power via torture in the name of "science" and created the Time Lords. All Time Lords share a memory of the Timeless Child due to this. "Ruth" is the Timeless Child, posing as the Doctor, probably doing so convincingly because her and all Time Lords share memories, and is currently on a mission of her own, presumably trying to undo the Masters mess via his misunderstanding.

I have a better timeless child story: everything else is the same, timeless child has regeneration and people on gallifrey used that regeneration power for themselves, however there was one person who felt true sorrow for the child, the doctor, one night he (as the first doctor) frees the timeless child who’s now regenerated into the doctors granddaughter, afterwards they borrow one of the TARDIS’ and travel to earth and over time they leave their granddaughter on earth to hopefully live out a mostly normal life. Fixed, it references the doctors granddaughter from the beginning, we can still feel fear for the doctor because they now can die and everything else stays the same... you can come up with other (better) ways the story could have gone go ahead, even saying the master is the timeless child is a better ending than the actual ending

I LOVE your changes to the idea!!!! That would have added so much to it and made it waaaaay better!!!! If it was a different character and NOT the Doctor--that would have made sooo much sense!!!! This was an excellent video! I'm so glad I watched it!!!! Also the clip of Ten with the Master is still making me emotional even though I haven't seen it in years...😢😢😭