This is a good idea! Unfortunately, for me in the Colorado area, doesn't look like there are any distributors. Do you know how I could get my hands on one of these

i saw it too on another video, good for DIY

On Line... I've seen them on eBay and at online hvac supply stores.

Jake Fournier The first thing you should do before going PSC is check the external static pressure on your duct system by taking a reading across the HVAC unit. If there is anything beyond 0.5 inches of static pressure then PSC may not be a solution There’s a reason why we use ECM motors and to overcome high external static pressure. You may also add return air grills and/or supply registers to reduce static pressure. Also undersized ductwork can be replaced

@Scott H Smith Sorry, but I have to chime in and no disrespect is meant since we are all learning here. I have checked ST on my system when the first & second ECM 2.5 failed and it was low both times & within spec. The best I can determine after further testing of my second failed 2.5 unit after digging it out of the potting compound (a 2 hour job) is one of the three back EMF circuits that tells the ECM where the motor is positioned for proper timing has failed. All 6 MOSFET's themselves were fine and working, but one of the three phases was not triggering. That's what causes that rumbling and jerky movement - only two of the 3 phases are powering. My best guess is not enough built in back EMF protection or simply not having enough component cooling. All anecdotal evidence to my one tested unit of course. Regardless, when it comes to PSC's retrofits for those that decide to go that route, no worries about restrictions with them. The higher the restriction (be it return or output), the less current a PSC will draw because it's not moving as much air and thus not working as hard. All standard motor driven impeller type pumps for fluid or air follow this principle of increased restriction = less current load. Now, such restrictions very well could cause higher loads and premature failure of ECM motors because they will presumably try to compensate for the reduction in air flow by spooling to higher RPM's to maintain their set flow rates, at least that's the reason I've been told by several HVAC engineers. I really would like to confirm this one way or the other on our residential Gentek ECM's by monitoring how much load is going across the MOSFETs while in operation as flow restriction is increased and decreased; but since they are sealed in silicone potting compound, there is no practical way for a homer owner to get to them for testing. Regardless if ECM motors do draw more current when flow is restricted and are being overworked and that is why they are pre-maturely failing, I still don't buy into this reasoning. Why? The beauty with all electronic 3 phase commutated motors is their ability to be "smart" and automatically speed up or slow down based on whatever algorithm is controlling them. If Gentek were honest, smart, and wanted to make a product that would last, they would have algorithmic safe guards programmed into the ECM to save both the motor and ECM control unit when high loads or ECM internal component over-temps are experienced, by throttling down the output, and on communicating system, flag a code if the condition persists. "System Malfunction - High Static Pressure Detected or High ECM Load/Temperature Detected." Most communicating systems as you point out already monitor static pressure as well so there is no reason the ECM's algorithm shouldn't be able to use that as well to throttle output to a safe level for the ECM. We are talking firmware, nothing special. Our little RC ESC's that are dirt cheap have a multitude of built in algorithmic protections such as over current, over temp, over speed, over/under voltage, high ripple, and if they were used in a model furnace that monitored static pressure, they would no doubt have over pressure protection as well. Some even have data logging/telemetry to help diagnose powering/load issues. So if a $60 RC ESC can have all that "smart" protection built into its control algorithm, why can't a $600+ consumer grade HVAC electronic controller have it? The only reason that I can come up with is Gentek & the furnace manufacturers are crooks, and their current line of brushless 3 phase electronic commutated controllers represent a false economy. Saving a few bucks a year on power doesn't offset a thousand dollar expense every five, or even ten years. Working families on modest or fixed incomes simply can't keep getting screwed over by these pirates. My god, there are people who have commented on here that have been quoted half the cost of a new furnace or higher for an ECM & Motor replacement. This has to end! No more excuses - time to hold these buggers accountable for their crap product.

UPDATE: Wow! I really impressed my instructor! When I showed him, his eyes got wide! He smiled and said, "I can tell you're going to go far in this field. But don't get hung up in the details of things; just keep it simple. Remember; you're trying to make the most money in the shortest amount of time. If there's a problem with a motor, and you know for sure that the motor is bad, slap a new one in there for 'em, get your money, and go on to the next service call. In the end, their unit is back up and running again, you get rewarded handsomely for your knowledge and time well spent, and it's a win-win situation for everyone." 😏

Hi sir is this motor can be used as a condenser fan motor

Did it work?

Nice work.

do i need to program a new or used ecm?thanks

Glad it helped

same here. We contracted with a local company to do maintenance on the HVAC in my rental property. They said I needed a whole new system. I took apart and rebuilt the previous system in that small crawlspace by myself (20 years ago). I pulled the blower assembly and am changing out the ECM. Found one on ebay for 130 bucks. I hired them so I wouldn't have to crawl my old ass in that hot attic again. Lesson learned. I used to repair cameras with tiny little parts, so big sheet metal boxes with a fan and a small amount of electronics don't scare me.

That’s the number one killer of these motors.

Good to hear

I'm having the same issue. My motor tries to spin but can't. What parts did you end up replacing....the entire motor assembly or just the control module. Mine is a gentec ECM 2.3.

@@mtbbiker6401 It's exactly the ECM part shown replaced in this video. But my spec was different. I went on ebay and found someone selling the -exact- same ECM as mine. At the very least the ECM x.x, HP, Volts, GCxx must match. But also the Exxxxxxx in the left hand corner of the sticker matched with mine as well. Not sure if that made any difference.

@@KennethDiStefano-gt1zs Thanks. I did the ohm test on my motor leads and I'm getting 1.2, 4.8, 4.4 so I believe there's a problem with my motor windings. At minimum I'll need a replacement motor and possibly an ECM also.

That is great news Ben you got yours working with the QwikSwap, saved a good deal of coin, and you were able to get all the components from Supplyhouse (nice one stop shopping). Wish they would ship up to Canada - great selection of parts. Always a good thing to be a "hero" to the most powerful person in our lives - the wife 🙂Thanks so much for the Super Thanks. Will put it toward the V3 conversion when I have to get one when this used ECM puffs out its last electron. I have another used one here, but I know I would feel better with the QwikSwap. Stay cool mate...

Couldn’t agree more!

You are absolutely right!

10 year labor ? Wow thats impressive.

Born to break.

Old comment, but did you have any luck playing around with the old one?

Yep, thanks for pointing that out.

Zebra's VZPRO's ECM surge protector is mentioned somewhere in the comments, and I installed one on my unit shortly after I made this video from that recommendation. By all accounts, there is already adequate surge suppression & filtering within the ECM going by the number of MOV's and inrush current limiter on the input side of the circuit board; but as you say, for $30 beans, it's certainly worth trying and won't do any harm. There is no doubt these ECM's hate dirty voltage. My used 3.0 is till going strong and it's been over 3 years now, so who knows... Maybe the external surge protector is actually working 🙂

Glad it helped.

Glad it helped

Glad it was helpful.

Thanks & you're very welcome. 🙂

Excellent info Scott, Thank You. I had an Inrush Thermistor fail after 20 years and if I had it failing at 5y I'd be checking supply voltage and your advice. John might have an underlying problem.

Glad it may have helped - thanks for the visit.

Glad you enjoyed it

Glad you found it useful & thanks for watching.

Yep, a total POS is right! I maintain these stupid things are no good for home HVAC applications after hearing more and more comments just like yours. As I mentioned to another commenter, they represent a total false economy. I'm interested in these PSC conversions too. I've heard a little bit about them, but nothing more than that. Do you have any good links to something explaining the options/procedures (if any yet)? I can only imagine if someone came out with PSC conversion modules for all the various ECM's out there, so we could all convert to good & proven reliable induction motors, they would make a small fortune!

John, there are a few KZfaq videos showing how to do the ECM to PCS conversion but I found none of them shows it step by step for people that aren't in the field. Though it shouldn't be a big deal. PSC equivalent motor is easy to find and pretty much a direct replacement. Costs about 100 bucks brand new. A few wiring will need to be changed/rerouted and a capacitor will need to be added. (Maybe in some cases a relay or contactor). That's pretty much it. Probably one hour job for someone who knows what to do. Not sure if a module that converts the ECM to PSC would be practical or even possible since ECM motors are running on DC power. Someone though (if they ever) may come up with an aftermarket control module to fit on the current ECM motors and if their price is competitive and their units last, they will definitely make money off this. I have several ECM motors in my hand. All would need a working module and they would be good to go...

Thanks for the info on the PSC conversion. I'm wondering however how that method wouldn't throw a code since the mother board is not seeing any communication from the ECM telling it the motor is in fact working? With this Carrier/Bryant Evolution system I have, any funrance/fancoil motor fault code shuts the entire system down. I'm sure other systems are different and don't do that however by quickly reading a few PSC conversion posts. My thought on the "PSC conversion module" would be a device that plugs into the communication 4 connector plug that communicates with the main board in its native protocol. The power plug would also plug into it to supply the motor power. That main power plug is by the way supplying VAC; it's the rectifying circuit in the ECM that changes it to DC. At any rate, the conversion module would communicate with the mother board and trigger the relay/s as instructed by the mother board to send 120vac to the PSC motor. Turning it on, off, and if it's a multi speed PSC motor, at what RPM stage to run at (low, medium, high for example with three different relays). All the time communicating back to the main board in the furnace or fancoil all is working well so the mother board won't know any different and throw codes. Doubt it would be easy, but if affordable & more robust aftermarket communicating ECM's are ever available, conversion ones to run a different type motor should be possible as well? I would love to see a lower cost aftermarket option to these things. Even if they are just as crappy, they would drive the cost of the OEM Genteq ones down. You hit on the biggest issue with these ECM motors (next to their disposable failure rate), zero competition! Genteq can charge whatever they want to, and they are doing just that as we all know.

Hmmm, You know? You do have a point there!.. I never thought about the smart thermostats that get feedback from the ECM motor. My thermostat is a simply relay device that sends a signal to the air handler's board so it can energize the 24 volt wire to start the ECM motor. It is a dumb device. It doesn't know what's going on at the motor end. All I have to do is to add a contactor that uses the 24volt to energize the 230volt-end which will be connected to the PSC motor. And all should be good to go. And this setup will have a one-speed setting obviously. The speed of the PSC motor could be manually adjusted I believe. But since you have a kind of smart thermostat, I do understand it won't be this easy. Yes, your thermostat may refuse to control the motor thinking that something is wrong since it won't get any feedback. You may go back to a simple thermostat:) Genteq has a few competitors as I see now. There is the Evergreen motors that replace ECM X13 (not the kind you have though). Then I found a X13 Rescue motor but really didn't hear good things about it. Then lately I found Azure Digi motors by Mars. This one might be promising. I will check them a bit more before going with PSC route. I also found an ECM motor rebuilt center in south Florida (They are in Tampa) and it seems they rebuild all types of ECM motors made by Genteq. They sell it either a complete motor or just the module. They have your motor in stock. They only give 60-day warranty though. It will work but not sure if it is smart to spend money on. Because I know they will quit in a few months. They are the same design motors made by Genteq and I have zero trust on this company (Genteq). There is a design flaw on these motor modules. Manufacturer doesn't want to recognize it. But all the HVAC guys know this issue. Something will eventually happen and this problem will come to an end. I don't know when. I would love to use a variable speed/torque motor than a PSC motor but only if a reliable design comes into market...

@@iskoos do you realise that if you have an issue like high static that will cause motors to fail over and over again?

Hope it works 👍

Works great after soldering in the new thermister, and it only cost $6 for two of them, Fixed it just in time for the winter heating season , They wanted $1100 for a new ECM motor

Glad I could help

🙂

Glad it helped.

Thanks 👍

Guess that's why I referred to it as a current limiter _"it limits the inrush current on initial power up"._ 😉

Over the years the NTC thermistor have not always been the same for all 3x versions motor modules. Removing/attaching the line voltage connection to module with power still on, can also cause an arcking which could fail the thermistor. The way you tugged on the connector can also deform the pins, thus causing a poor or lacking connection. In general the fail due to power surges (lighting, poor earth ground or electrocuted squirrels). I was extremely impressed with your video. I dealt with the GE designed motor and its evolution for 33-years before retiring in 2018. The 1st generation motor was installed in a 1984 Carrier furnace model 58SXB. The pulse width modulator was separate and mounted on the back of the blower housing. In 1986 it was coupled with a variable speed inverter driven compressor A/C (38EV) or heat pump (38QV). The thermostat (Parker Electronics) was a DDC control that communicated to both indoor and outdoor unit just like your Bryant Evolution or Carrier Infinity system. The ECM (a.k.a. ICM) motor itself hardly ever fails. Failures are usually in the electronics or connections. Fan coils like yours, encounters a higher failure rate than gas furnaces. The electronics are in the cold air discharge of the fan during cooling, thus in high humidity conditions would condense water on the electronics and connections. There are 3-different modules 1/2, 3/4 and 1- horse power which are used in both 230vac fan coils and 115 vac gas furnaces. The modules will operate on both voltages. There is a jumper wire in furnace harness at motor to tell motor which input voltage. High efficiency motors were mandated by our federal politicians in 2018 just like the implementation of seat belts in cars. FYI starting in 2025 all new cars will be mandated to have a device to ensure the driver is not under the control alcohol.

Glad you liked it

I looked at one for a neighbor a few years back and the inrush thermistor was blown. $7 from Amazon and a couple solder joints and it was back up and running. I can't imagine the quote she would have gotten from an HVAC company. Also, it looks like the 3.0 now eliminates that DIY repair as it's all in one glue covered board. Amazing.

Yes, the 3 phase brushless motors last a very long time as I stated in the video - no argument there; but we are not discussing a motor failure, we are discussing the high failure rate of the 3 phase brushless motor controllers (the ECM). As I've stated to point of ad nauseam in the comments, that is first thing I checked (our Evolution system already has that static pressure checking built-in) and the static pressure is always well within what is recommended in our manual and what has been confirmed in countless forum threads and by others commenting (under the 0.5" range as you too mentioned). Of course, that is not the same as performing a proper static test on both the return & supply run so I appreciate the Evolution static reading could be wrong or limited in accuracy. We never block/shut ducts. We run an electronic air filter that has little air flow restriction unlike media filters. I clean the cells every 3 months, and the evaporator coil is checked annually. Plenum design & installation was also done by one of the top HVAC contractors in our area so I would hope the duct & plenum restriction hypothesis can also be put to rest? My two (thus far) ECM failures are therefore unlikely caused by restriction. Even if they were however, any ECM unit on a communicating system that already monitors static pressure should automatically log a restriction/pressure fault if that be the case. Of course it never has. Moreover, our little brushless 3 phase controllers on our RC models will warn of excessive draw and automatically ramp down power to cool the mosfets and other components to prevent over-temp & overload. A $500USD ($700CND)+ HVAC residential ECM brushless controller should be able to do the same - no? Is that really too much to expect when paying this kind of money? The ECM's micro controller is already monitoring current load in relation to RPM - that is how they self adjust both RPM & torque is it not? How hard would it be to include several lines of firmware code to have them safeguard the electronics? Further, I went to the time & trouble and dug the components out of the potting compound in my one failed ECM 2.5's and it was not one or more of the 6 mosfets that pooped the bed - they were all still good. It was the EMF feedback circuit in one of the phases so the ECM didn't know the armature position and when to time the pulses. That is not indicative of an overload failure mechanism or is it? Have you or the industry in general done post failure analysis of the ECM's to determine exactly what component's on them fail most often? If not, then these "high static pressure excuses" are nothing more than hypothesis based on anecdotes are they not? From my anecdotal experiences and that of many others; residential HVAC ECM's are undersigned, under protected, and overpriced/over hyped in a market with little to no competition. Thus the high pricing and poor excuses made to justify their high failure rates; blaming the installation, the duct work design, the owner, the filter maintenance etc. without any real data to support these excuses; at least none that I can find after years of searching. Please provide post failure analysis data to support such excuses. Even if they are failing due to restrictions wherever they may occur in the system, there should be effective safeguards in place when the technology already exists within these ECM's to simply shut down, ramp down, or log a restriction or high static pressure fault if that is the real reason for their high failure rate. You see many of us informed homeowners have come to the conclusion that residential HVAC ECM's are simply under engineered and designed to fail within a given time frame to pad the industry's pockets. The HVAC industry won't provide proof of the failure mechanism, just the regurgitated "high static pressure" excuse, so that's why so many of us are coming to this assertion. In short, ECM failure mechanism notwithstanding, residential HVAC ECM technology sucks! Any technology that is responsible for heating & cooling our homes that is too fragile to cope (if your high static pressure excuse is the real reason behind these failures), is pathetically under designed/engineered and is nothing but a cash grab to empty homeowners pockets while at the same time blaming them &/or the HVAC system installer for the failure. Shameful.

Good catch there on the drip loop. Yes, important practice to follow and it even states it in the Genteq Service Guide I link to above. After catching that in the service guide, I did rotate the motor so the plug is now near the bottom (7 o-clock to be exact) with a proper wire drip loop. At that time, I also installed one of those Zebra VZPro ECM protectors. amzn.to/2Bwogph Not sure if they work or are just snake oil considering the ECM already has a MOV in it for voltage surges, but figured for $35 bucks, it was worth installing. Going on 8 months now with that used 3.0 in there and the fan has been running on low speed 24/7 and of course on higher speeds during cooling and heating cycles - so far, so good. Keeping fingers crossed :-)

@@Rchelicopterfun Great stuff, with the video and now the update! Re: the Zebra, I'm looking at that, too (still troubleshooting my issue), but my thought would be it's easier to replace that than replacing a blown MOV, right? It would damage the MOV if it does its thing, correct? Re: troubleshooting, is the reason you didn't confirm you were getting correct voltage sent to the ECM because of the error code indicated that wasn't the issue?

You are 100% correct. Many of us "RC'ers" call these things brushless DC motors, since that is what they are called and marketed as in our world. So yes, in actuality these HVAC ECM motors are a 3 phase AC motor. The voltage regulation side of ECM first converts the single phase 60 HZ AC input to your furnace/fancoil into DC and then the electronics within take over and convert it into a 3 phase AC waveform which can be altered in amplitude, wavelength, and even shape by some controllers to vary the output speed and torque of the motor. Back EMF from the motor is used to correctly time the phases with the motor rotation speed.

I think it all sort of depends on your definition of "phase". Instead of three wires that "pulse" voltage in sine wave at 120 degrees offset with a freq set by the utility, it is a 3 phase motor with variably controlled "pulse" frequency and duration that rises and falls more or less as a square wave. My understanding is that the windings on the motor are essentially the same as the standard 3 phase configuration, however the ECM only powers two of them at once and uses the 3rd to sense the position of the rotor via hall effect. Since it has fixed magnets instead of induction magnets, you have to have some way of keeping your stator magnetic field in the right place, hence a computer that knows where the rotor is. Well, at least this is how I understand it. I too have a Carrier Infinity and have had to replace one of my condensor fans. It kills me that the ECM board goes bad and you end up throwing away perfectly good windings. I also had the GE motor, not sure which model number, but I could clearly see where the ECM fried itself. The board was fully potted so it was pretty much impossible to fix it. But this whole thing is a bunch of crap. Fortunately I have 3 units in my house so things are still tolerable with one unit out provided you leave doors open and use some fans to move air around. But if you only had one unit and lived in the great white north, what the heck would you do if the thing went out in Feb and the parts were 5 days out.

Glad I could help

So true. As the engineering adage goes "complexity hampers both execution and reliability."

I have a Rheem 95% Gas furnace with a PSC motor and it is fantastic! 12+ and no issues. I think the problem comes with the ECM stuff.

Thanks for watching 👍

How do you manage a relay mod with communicating systems like this Evolution system that requires communication with the ECM to function? The only 3 speed PSC motor mod I'm aware of that will work with communication systems is the QuickSwap board by Mainstream Engineering (about the same price as your relay mod). If there is a simple relay method that works with a communicating system mother board, we would all love to know about it. 🙂

Hope you can get yours working too. 👍

A lot of times if the capacitor or the thermistor are blown on the ECM module, you can de-solder them and solder on new components for cheap. Not sure if your unit had visible damage like mine did. I just had to replace two capacitors and the thermistor for $37 and few hours of work.

Yep

Thanks for the suggestion. We actually do have a WHSP on our electrical box (installed when the house was built) so the ECM/s have always been protected in that respect. I've also since added one of those dedicated Zebra Instruments ECM surge protectors (made specifically for these ECM motors) shortly after I installed this used 3.0 ECM. Honestly, I think they are snake oil (at least if you already have a WHSP installed), but for only $30 beans, figured why not try it. So far, this used one is lasting (almost 3 years now since I did the video), so hopefully with the addition of a second dedicated ECM surge protector right at the motor now, this one might actually last more than 5 years.

My ecm has gone out and I have two whole house suppressors installed. SO not always....

Well said!