Me too

Brian in asdfmovie catchphrase

me too

*trains suddenly come out of nowhere at max speed*

Me 3

Yes I’ve heard some interesting things about how different the locos will be to drive under ETCS.

Not quite enough. 140mph operation also requires OHLE upgrades, level crossing closures, fenced platforms e.g. Biggleswade and St Neots.

​@@bfapple That's true. The Mark 3 OLE used on the ECML was designed for speeds of 100 mph, not even 125, let alone 140. It's why the ECML suffers from frequent dewirements - the OLE is completely overwhelmed with so many high speed trains using it at the same time. Headspans are the main culprit, and the masts are also much further apart than the WCML. However, rebuilding the OLE is by no means an easy job. Level crossing closures is a long term goal, which should hopefully happen anyway. However, if we think realistically here. It's not like being hit by a train at 140 is significantly less survivable than being hit by a train at 125. Both will kill you instantly. Barriers on the fast lines make sense, but Potters Bar for instance has trains passing at 115 mph without barriers, and I've never seen anyone get pulled too close there. However, the main point I was making was that the fitment of ERTMS will remove the most major obstacle to 140 mph running. When the InterCity 225s came out the lack of in-cab signalling was the primary, if not the only, reason why they were limited to 125 mph in passenger service, despite being tested at 140 mph.

@@bfapple There was an incident some months ago when the Thameslink semifast, which runs fast from Potters Bar to Finsbury Park, got horribly late, and ended up stopping on the fast line platform so it could make up some of the time (and to avoid getting stuck behind the all-stops service which had by this time gone ahead of it). With fencing on the fast lines, this would not be possible (though it is possible to fit sliding fence gates like those at other stations). The next time the train got that delayed, the train stopped on the slow platform but moved onto the fast line just after leaving. This would have to be the way it's done in future. Once I was coming into Elstree on the MML, Thameslink services run 24-hours and it was the middle of the night, the train was a Brighton to Bedford all-stations service and it was running on the fast lines, because no other passenger services were using them (at night the only Thameslink services that run are Bedford to Brighton all-stations, and EMR trains don't run). When we got into the station, the gate across the stairs to the footbridge was open so we could go through.

@@bfapple And I’m saying that’s true, but apart from signaling and OLE the other things are a lot less major

The infrastructure isn’t fit for 140mph…. The current geometry isn’t suitable for 125mph in places - hence the lower speeds. The dynamic forces exerted by trains > 125mph would also change the service life of some component’s….

Absolutely honoured indeed!

It's suppose to be

@@kevingraham2733 does it have the smells too !

It’s my company doing the designs. I’m not directly involved, but Tornado is an interesting challenge - how to interface with the drivers on a unique environment.

Wow, a steam locomotive with ETCS signalling?!

@@EonityLuna such a funny contrast between electronic screens and the controls lol.

I am guessing in the future when the system is countrywide, all locos will need to have it fitted - will be interesting to see how it will be fitted into the entire heritage fleet of locos - steam, diesels and electric. I just hope the cost of fitting such equipment is not so high that it end's up making it not financially viable to keep many of the loco's mainline capable.

@@100SteveB that’s a problem with these 60+ year old heritage steamers and diesels. Almost every single vehicle is unique; we can’t make a “one size fits all” design. Expensive.

GO is actually far from being a unique adopter: [In Europe, with railways using different signalling systems, a train that crosses borders must have equipment for each country. The European Train Control System (ETCS) was devised to solve this problem with a common system. It has spread to countries around the world - including Australia, China, India, Mexico, Saudi Arabia, South Korea and Taiwan - because it offers improved safety, performance and headway times.] - Advanced signalling will allow more frequent GO Train service

@@stephensaines7100 Auckland in New Zealand also uses ETCS.

The A1 Trust has several interesting news articles about it on their website

@@andrewreynolds4949 indeed and I think there have been at least a few stakeholder presentations recorded.

If a steam engine (or vintage diesel) is to be mainline-certified, they need to be fitted with the latest train control equipment, be it cab signaling equipment and/or digital train radio systems so it can safely interact with other traffic on the network. The alternative is to cease mainline operations of heritage equipment as closing a mainline to ordinary traffic to allow a special to run just isn't a viable operations method. Closer to my home, all 'heritage' locomotives have to carry a digital train radio. No radio, no mainline running. Fortunately, they developed a 'portable' unit that can be moved from locomotive to locomotive as required. This avoids expensive kit needing to be fitted to a locomotive that may venture onto the mainline only a handful of times a year.

Deltics next.

@@bfapple Presumably over time as ETCS signalling rolls out over the network, more of the mainline-certified heritage stock will have to be fitted with ETCS equipment to maintain its mainline certification. This is just the beginning..

i really enjoy it as an non-Tube option for getting into town :)

@Alice Warburton good that it is useful !

PTC is just a requirements/concepts that the signaling system in a US FRA regulated railroad must have. Whereas ETCS/ERTMS is a interoperable signaling system. In fact, ETCS implementations can be used to satisfy PTC requirements. And PATH uses Siemens CBTC to satisfy their PTC requirements.

Nice one Jon 😂

Nice horn! 😜

The UK’s rail system is a lot more insular than Central Europe, I don’t think it’s needed quite as much

e-g- the Ladbroke Grove accident - the signal lamp aligned with the sun at a certain time of day.

Not a new problem - I recall a new 158 class at Manchester Oxford Road having a similar issue in the very early 90's ...

And I don't lean on tube doors anymore, eversince I was almost ejected out and under the carriage from a Victoria Line tube when the doors on the wrong side opened at Green Park station.

I thought that was because of how narrow the tunnels were

They have automatic power changeover at Drayton park.

Thought the tunnel telephone wires/system was more about the traction current in the tunnels (the East London Line had them but I believe they were replaced with handsets) As for trainstops though, they seem to have already been removed, with TPWS loops taking their place? (e.g. Moorgate at 12:48, there's a TSS where there would be a fixed trainstop, and looking at the platform, mini-OSS loops where the timed train stops used to be)

The Northern City has already been converted to AWS/TPWS. Tripcocks are gone.

The signalling was upgraded last year, trip cocks are long gone thankfully and TPWS and Axle counters are now in place, the tunnel telephone system is still there though!!

I’m fairly sure the Hertford Loop ETCS is for test trains only at this time…

and platform 5, as far as I know, is still conventionally signalled

But ERTMS can help mitigate those issues

Exactly Andrew. Its not a solve-all situation but it’s the best that can be done (without building HS2 all the way to Leeds… 🤬)

@@Nooticus I think a more efficient way to solve those specific restrictions would be to double/expand/rebuild those viaducts and tunnels...

@@andrewreynolds4949 it's close to impossible to do that, especially for the digswell viaduct. impossible meaning that the cost would not be worth the increase in capacity. HS2 is a much much better and more cost efficient option actually. the calculations have been done by people who are cleverer than I am!

@@Nooticus Maybe for the WCML, but I don't really see much benefit for the ECML. I'm not saying upgrading that bottleneck on the ECML is worth its cost, but I don't think HS2 east would be an effective replacement. Far more effective for the ECML would be targeted upgrades like the dive-under project north of Peterborough, and ERTMS moving block implementation. As a side note, the Digswell Viaduct looks less like a problem to me than the constrained area at Welwyn North station. Additional spans can be built alongside the existing structure if that's what's needed. Putting 2 more lines through the station and the cutting/tunnels north of that would require a lot more rebuilding and property acquisition.

Not in this lifetime.

I believe they will be upgrading many classes, including the LNER/Hull Trains/Lumo 80Xs, the Grand Central 180s, and possibly the remaining 225 sets as well

Everything that operated on East Coast will need ETCS onboard fitting. Including freight and heritage locos.

@@andrewreynolds4949 No, it’s just all of Great Northern and Thameslink’s fleet because of the Northern City and Canal tunnels

@@bfapple I believe most stock is already fitted with this.

@@andrewreynolds4949 The 800 series trains already have ERTMS. The 387s are getting them fitted, and maybe the 180s (which are an obstacle to 140 mph running and should really be replaced with bi-mode 800s to phase out diesel under wires for long distances). The 225 group tell me that there are no plans to fit InterCity 225s with ERTMS, and they will be phased out before the removal of line-side signals.

In theory there are a few very limited sections which could be raised to 140 mph on this part of the ECML. I'm not sure if that's in the plan. Most of this section is only good for 125 or less due to other limitations. As a side note, trains on HS1 have had in-cab signaling for around two decades now

@@andrewreynolds4949 thanks, dude

The Cambrian route from Shrewsbury to Machynlleth (and onwards) already has a semaphore ETCS transition.

It's still used on parts of the Sub-surface network, on the Bakerloo, Piccadilly and Waterloo & City lines, but ironically not at Moorgate anymore.

Guessing also "no real need for it, compared to Thameslink needing it for capacity" may be part of it