Exactly, Got to love those small angle approximations!

would it help to probe the rod straight,just for the heck of it,just dont forget to canle the rotation afterwards or you will have wonky parts ,i know extreamly small numbers but you have it for free

forgot to mention that you can calibrate against a sphere that you use to calibrate cmm,first calibrate the probe to the sphere and then calibrate the machine with the newly calibrated probe.we have macroed our hermles so they grab a palete with a sphere mounted to it every 5 hours and calibrate the machine in all axes automatically

Make a rod from sphere, so both ends will share that sphere's radius. So any aligment up to couple degrees would be almost zero. But I am not sure if it can be manufactured.

For the rest of the World who use metric : the Glas pease is ca 305mm long , if you have it 1 mm wrong to the X Axis you have a length diferenz of 0,0016mm. a Normal CNC-Maschine have about 0,015mm on 1000mm accuracy. I dont know how accurat Haas maschines ar but i think the are not thits accuract (because the have no glas-scale)

This seems so much simpler in hindsight

Yeah I think Haas offers linear scales positional feedback as an option vs just having servo encoders. Other machines have them built in.

@@TT-yu9uo yes they're an option on most machines. The problem is, when buying machines tools, glass scales are a factory build option only. Usually there is a long wait to get a machine from the factory, but the dealers bring a steady stream of machines in that they can offer immediately, all without glass scales lol

Yeah all things considered you're pretty much going to get the same level of precision, accuracy and repeatability with that methodology as with this dude and his HAAS. There are so many things this dude is ...just ugh posturing. He's like the opposite of Ben at Applied Science in terms of reporting the results of his scientific excursions and being all full disclosure about what he doesnt know. (I guess this sort of makes sense since this channel is about promo'ing his CNC business vs Ben who just does it because he likes science) Like oh wow, the CTE of alu is ~40x worse than quartz, sure. OK now what sort of cut is that quartz? There's a reason why AT vs SC vs BT all cost different amounts of money and are used in different oscillators based (hunt: quartz is not an isotropic mineral-- thats why a quartz watch crystal oscillator can cost 30 cents vs a rubidium standard that goes into a cell tower which is going to cost $300. See I can drop knowledge bombs about materials science too, granted I'm sure some PhD is going to jump in and school me good). If he's just using a rotary carbide bit or a surface grinder (or even if he lapped it with some diamond polish), unless he hit the right "grain of the glass", hes introducing systemic issues into his "transfer standard". (And arguably worse than that he's instilling false faith in his systemics). @Marco Reps is an EE who dabbled into building a CNC for..some reason (I think he's friends with Stefan G, those damn smart germans). He ended up getting pretty consistent repeatability within the nanometers. He did it with just closed loop feedback servos and the tried and true MIT design that Slocum came up with (gantry-based, as much mass as possible to dampen vibration out, 25mm ball screws with 2 aux. guides per axis). In retrospect, he would have done what you mentioned (LVDT scales, rather than shafts/rotary encoder absolute feedback). He also mentioned some weird damping aggregate, that I forget. If ya'll wanna see some real impressive work, go look at Huygen's Optics'. Or optics work in general. Zee germans and Japanese can charge 100k for a lens because their aspheric cine lenses are better than the Chinese clones on literally the nanometer scale (the entire visible light spectrum is only 300 nanometers.. so you can see chromatic abberation with a green looking "wrong" at 20 nanometers, especially on an IMAX screen)

@@wither8 Huygens Optics is Dutch, not German. But yeah, along with the Germans and the Swiss the Dutch are known for producing the most precise and insane tech on earth too (cough, ASML, cough).

Fantastic! Thanks for watching and best wishes for your future shop!

Thank you and happy Thanksgiving!

Exactly! Finally someone totally gets it. If the "accuracy" macro displayed is pretty big (±.001") you should probably think about other thermal factors including material, coolant and ambient temps.

its probably easier to heat the colant,would it mess everything up if you mesured the highest temp in the machine and then add a few degrees with a heater? you would get a warm workpiece but stable temperature?

@@kristiankautto7616 heating/cooling coolant is what we do in my shop. 75° F is the temperature that works well for us year round. Coolant is heated/chilled after the pump and before entering the machine, we have parts in 6061, 7075, and 316 ss that need to hold 10ths or less and we do it with Haas machines. I have a 1 hour warmup routine that is implemented on startup days, say Monday morning, to allow the machines castings to stabilize then the coolant never stops circulating until the machine is shut down. Additional pumps have been added to flush the enclosures that run continuously which helps hold temperatures, and billets are warmed or cooled in a similar manner prior to machining as well as tools all calibrated at the same temperature. We used to have check routines, and we also used to use compensation and scalling values but the additional work was inevitably more costly compared to a few pumps and good chillers. Simple and reasonably priced modifications to the machines have removed any need for human involvement or error. What he is doing in this video is great for a job shop machine and is frankly genius but unnecessary for a production machine running continuously.

It could but the edges of the orange holders are to be positioned flush to the edge of the table. This is what keeps it square.

The rod can be at an angle as long as it is probing in the same spot then the length it becomes a constant. By the way Mr. Piercen you're a dam genius keep doing what your doing🤟

@@PiersonWorkholding Assuming you guys also checked parallel on Z before putting the tool into use?

And see similar comments why it only needs to be square to the table by .050".

I have seen it done an even cheaper way. The owner of a shop I was working a wanted an ice machine for cold drinks in the summer. He happened to see a couple at a motel on his way to work. The motel was under renovation and owner was happy to get rid of them for free. We would fill 5 gallon buckets up with ice and mix some coolant in. Then dump the cold coolant in to the tank. We did not monitor the temperature with thermometers, but the temperature inside of the machine enclosure would be much cooler after adding the cold coolant.

Coolant chillers are a thing

Those concerns are non-factors because the resolution of the probe is .0001" and any error, flex, movement, misalignment, etc is far under .0001".

Well your understanding of machinist nomenclature is off by 10,000.

$35 worth of parts is all it takes!

I think that's running Linux CNC under the bonnet? So you could do loads of stuff even more accurate than this. Add a temp sensor. Linear glass scales. Have it run a ball screw map every so often. Etc.

cant even afford a tormach😂

@@3dwezzy740 only thing I would buy from them again is a 1100MX the 8L lathe and plasma table have been a PITA with little support. Currently their support is refusing a simple request to transfer the 2 year warranty on a servo that is bad. They purchsed the servo from clearpath. we contacted clearpath and they refused because it was purchased by tormach and not us. Tormach refuses to understand a simple request to release the warranty to us so ClearPath will replace.

See pinned comment at the top. The beauty of quartz is that you don't have to worry about any of the thermal mitigation you mentioned. An extreme temp swing of the rod (for a machining environment) of 25⁰ would still be under the resolution accuracy of the probe.

Lot of good stuff you mentioned, but careful to not mix a few subjects. The quartz rod also takes imperfections of the ballscrew into account. You definitely want to measure accuracy of the ballscrew with a known, thermally stable artifact like the quartz rod. If you wanted to measure the thermal status of a workpiece, then as you mentioned use an artifact of the same material that has a known measurement at a known temp. Carbide gage blocks under 1" have essentially no measurable growth under normal shop conditions (±15⁰) so it's most likely for wear resistance when working with carbide tools. Finally, what fresh-out-of-college engineer would design a part with ±.0002 over 12"? This is why engineers need hero machinists to set them straight.

I agree with Jonathan, your goal is the accuracy of the final product, and not the error of the machine ball screw. If you really care for accuracy, then a Renishaw ball bar test will give you the best results. As far I as know, Haas doesn’t use chillers because they use a software algorithm built in the control to compensate for thermal growth, and in my humble opinion it works good enough to hold half a thousand, I can come in the early morning and continue to work without any huge differences like in the old days. I’m sure you know you can see the machine temperatures in the control lol. Also, if you working with small tolerances, work in metric. 1 micron compensation = .00003937 inches.;)

@@PiersonWorkholding A master gauge of any material takes ballscrew growth in to account as well as environmental impacts of the workpiece (if matched with CTE). There isn't a mixing of subjects. Think of it this way: if only your ballscrew is growing, why does it matter if the master gauge is impervious to environmental changes?

Most of the time we run it just to see if the machine is hot/cold. In the video we were at . 00011" over 12" so that's accurate enough to not worry about things.

The glass isn’t free floating. It is pressed into the holder almost to the point where we though it would break. Fortunately quartz is ridiculously strong too.

@@PiersonWorkholding What is securing the holder to the machine table?

@@conorg6273 magnets imbedded into the 3d printed bases.

@@conorg6273 Here's a link to this video in case you want to watch it: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/etlmjbSg3ZjdgIE.html

@@PiersonWorkholding 😂😂

You're getting too theoretical talking Bessel points. The reality of four digits of resolution of the probe output is the limiting factor.

@@PiersonWorkholding this process hinges on how accurately you can measure the rod. For the average electronic height gage linear error could be as much as .0002-.0003" over 12". FYI, Haas has a warm up function that applies a correction over a specified amount of time

You can if needed, but we generally use this method to know if the machine is running hot or cold.

Edit: (I may be Wrong on this) Because the probe tip is a ball, as long as the ball is touching the opposite face (and this is why it was so important the faces were parallel) its self correcting.

@@NexusTrimean no its not self correcting. it may not be much, but see for example a parallelogram, when you probe the two angled sides, the measured value will increase. Yes i have validated it myself in a cad program :)

​@@ipadize If taking single points yeah you could get some odd results if it's not perfectly straight to the machine axis. Taking a line on either side would help to correct. Ideally would get parallel to machine axis and probe X & Y separately. Not sure if the haas control has a single scaling function or allows individual axis adjustment.

I thought the same thing…

The way its shown (single point) yeah those are super important. If you probe lines on either side you can correct for some angle, but best practice to isolate an axis as much as possible. I'm assuming they put a bit more work into this than the video shows, working it to be nice and straight when placed on the table. I know we 3d print some CMM fixturing and definitely have to do some minor post-work if we need things exactly the same height.

Gotta read that pinned comment at the top.

Don't confuse what you're measuring. This technique is only for measuring the machine accuracy. You're right about measuring an artifact of the same material, but that's measuring the workpiece at a specific temperature, not the machine.

In theory, yes but the real-life limiting factor is the four digits of resolution of the probe.

It needs to be flat within .050" to still give useful accuracy.

I made a whole video about that. Check it out 14 mins in: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/ldKWjNSjyZOWpJs.html

Ballscrew wear would require a ballbar test which would cost you $250 minimum. This is an accurate, inexpensive first step to see if you even need a ballbar test to begin with.

We've repeated the tests in X and Y but the differences have been identical.

The thermal compensation in the Haas control is based on correction distance over time. It is meant to compensate for the machine warming up over the first part of the day. It doesn't actually take a temperature reading.

The edges of the orange holders go flush with the edge of the table. They just need to be flush within .050" before angular error is a factor.

Sure ? In my opinion you have to Line it with the Axis ( in x and z ) or i understand somthing wrong. ( Im from Germany and my english is Not the best,also i get confused with our inch- thing;-))

@@woiskorn Thank you for watching from Germany! The rod holder needs to be flush to the edge of the table by 1.3mm.

False. Doosan machines still have to follow the laws of physics.

Sure, Z could be calibrated but would require another type of stand and some extra programming. Circular interpolation is more likely to be managed through firmware and backlash.

Kinda like 2/3 N in Renishaw probes.

Fair question. According to Renishaw, the force on the second probe touch is 1.1 oz. That's way under any force required to move the magnetic bases.

Read pinned comment at the top.

Think about a ball touching a plane. And moving over to an opposite plane that is parallel to the first. Any error will be canceled out.

I don’t think it matters since they are probing both ends which were ground parallel. If you imagine the right side being angled and probing on the high side, the left side of the rod would be probed on the low side which would average to the correct length. I think this also applies to the potential error in height of the 3d printed parts. I’m happy to be told I’m wrong though.

As I mentioned earlier, the edges of the orange holders are positioned flush with the edge of the table. You would only start to see error once the misalignment is over .050”. And if someone can’t see or notice .050”, there’s no way they’ll keep working for me.

i think if you measure the rod on Coordinate-measuring machine you will find pretty accurate number (if u make coordinate system on rod). But on CNC machine rod is putted randomly on table not respecting coordinate system so you measure diffrent lenght... every time you put it in different angle you get different number. But maybe im wrong.

@@PiersonWorkholding stick to hanging drywall is what you are saying basically.😂👍

Wishful thinking on editing firmware. Machine builders have those pretty locked down. You still have to sample something to get your known and traveled distance and our method might be the solution.

@@PiersonWorkholding I probably could have emphasized it more but i meant to put the blame on the manufacturers. A machine shop could probably make loads of money if they start selling kits for industrial use not just hobbyist or garage operations that can be put together using open source software and boards. Marline already supports CNC, 3d printing and Laser cutting all one would need is to reach out to some board manufacturers like BIQU to support higher amperage drivers. 3d printers would be an other decade or two behind if it wasn't for open source and people printing parts for their printer then editing the firmware to enable new features.

See pinned comment at the top.

Something like that. Look-ahead is next level nerd stuff that disinterests me.

See pinned comment at the top.

Nope. Too small of a sample size to be useful.

Read the pinned comment at the top. ☝️

@@PiersonWorkholding, I'm probably in the minority here, but anyone truly calibrating a machine that doesn't indicate their standard on the machine wouldn't be in my shop long. That's just me though, I'm sure most would be fine with it.

Possibly. If you had a part with a lot more X movement than Y movement, the X ballscrew might be warmer. We haven't noticed anything like that though.

I am curious to

I suppose it would work easiest in a lathe with a probe. Lots of lathes don't have 12" of travel in X either so you'd have to use a shorter rod which reduces resolution.

The only way I could imagine that would work would be to mounting the rod in a tool holder? Idk lathes are deceptively simple yet complicated.

See pinned comment

@@PiersonWorkholding There's no pinned comment

@@RavenRockMachine I see it. Pinned at the top of the comments.

@@CNC_Soup interesting on both computers weren’t showing it. Now it is. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Regular probe calibration will take care of that.

Yes, works with any machine. Just use an edge finder instead of a probe.

The better performance of Zerodur isn't needed. See pinned comment at the top.

Careful to not confuse multiple factors. Material, machine, and ambient temps are all separate factors that should be measured with other devices, i.e. thermometers. The featured tool is only meant to measure and correct machine errors due to thermal expansion.

You missed the pinned comment at the top.

Backlash is a whole different topic. Modern machines have backlash in the millionths so sloppy machines are beyond the scope of this tool.

@@PiersonWorkholding I think I would like to see you measure that? My experience is different. Put a 123 block at the end of the rod. Compare it's length measuring in the same direction at each end Vs the direction reversal when you just measure both ends. I would be surprised not to see quite a few microns difference?

​@@PiersonWorkholding Trust but verify. A machine may not behave the same after several years of abuse as it did the day you received it. I think using the spindle probe is also a bit sketchy unless you're obsessively calibrating and checking the calibration on your machine. The temperature of the machine and gauge you use when calibrated could itself throw off all future measurements. Temperature differences do matter but this way of working just compounds errors in a manner that could make them painfully difficult to diagnose. Is a part out of spec? Was your gauge out of alignment? Is your probe out of calibration? Does your machine have some backlash ... The biggest problem with your solution is that it compounds these errors into a single complex variable that then affects the entire geometry of the part. Ideally, you'd probably just run critical parts and features on a machine that's been adequately warmed up in a climate-controlled environment ensuring reliable, repeatable performance with simple-to-diagnose issues. I personally think it's a solution searching for a problem. But the kind of problem it might find is the hair-pulling-inducing kind where everything is going wrong and you don't know where to start fixing it.

Are you basing 5 degrees of change in c or f. He's speaking in F, in which 5 degrees of change is only 2.8 degrees in C

Learn to speak American Machinist: three-tenths of an inch = .0003"

@@PiersonWorkholding You are perfectly right.

@@StamD65 The pain of the US stubbornly sticking to it's own measurement systems and lingo. Ugh!

@@PiersonWorkholding As a jeweler we only use the metric system and when I heard 3/10s in. i said holy shit I was shocked too and then i remembered the American machinist language, Thanks for clarifying.

See the pinned comment at the top.

It's a Trimos Swiss brand, sold by Fowler. They're excellent and we have several of them.

See pinned comment at the top.

Glass and ceramic swarf is deadly for linear rails. It's best to machine off the minimum required to clean up the ends.

Expensive ones that use quartz glass lenses.

We haven't used this for too long but we have big plans on keeping records of ambient shop temperatures across the year and seeing how machines grow and what directions are most affected.

​@@PiersonWorkholding Thanks, a good reminder of the little things. So the workpiece axis with longer travels would be impacted more as lead screw elongation is multiplied by distance? My machine doesn't have scaling enabled but fusion does have a scaling feature on models and I could do multiple posts just for temperature compensation and a reference chart with scaling factor vs ambient temperature to choose the post version. I'd hope the chart is unchanging over time otherwise its compensating for more than temperature. Having seen trended temperatures in software over the years. they look line sine waves mostly changing for events, day/night sunny/rainy and more so year long seasons along with the geographic location and all of those on top of each other. Of course tracking indoors would be dominated by heating and conditioning. Someone will leave a door open and could put a blip in the data haha, that fun could be removed with hourly averaging. There's a little bit of a parallel with how fluids volumes are netted with pressures, temperature, density, and meter factors in mind with machining i guess that would be (a finish pass vs roughing) (machine/part thermal expansion) (materials types) and (ball bar setup). This makes me want to make desk art that amplifies the movement from thermal expansion to make something visually appealing like a dippy bird.

@@PiersonWorkholdingwould depend as much on machine usage and ballscrew temp if I'm not mistaken. Might be too many variables. But should be cheap and fun to implement.

You are correct and yes, we absolutely need the 903 variable. We explain it later in the video as one of the pieces of data to display on the control. It's a number that the operators can best relate to.

@@PiersonWorkholding ah I see, didn't think of the front end for the operator, good to know, thanks!

That would make it harder to align. We only need two parallel planes.

Doesn’t work would still affect the “length” or I guess x axis component of the length. Only thing that truly wouldn’t change would be a circle or a solid of constant width, as cool as a Reuleaux triangle gauge would be I think I that’s rather impractical

Read the first pinned comment.

Sounds like you got some great high-end equipment.

It's an industry term - kzfaq.info/get/bejne/r56YlsmFq7yuaZ8.html

Works great with an edge finder too!

@@PiersonWorkholding but the edge finder is made from metal :P

See pinned comment.

@@PiersonWorkholding ay thanks / true

You gotta learn the lingo. No one says ten-thousandths and no one calls 0.1 a tenth.

You missed the point. Ring gauges are susceptible to thermal expansion. And come back and tell us how much a “large” ring gauge costs.

@@PiersonWorkholding I understand better now after reading all the comments. Indeed out of the box thinking.

@@PiersonWorkholding well a large ring gauge is normally free if you have a large bore mic ;) I know it possibly could be nice to know this information but do you really have parts that need this sort of accuracy as all this would increase the accuracy on is true position. As far as diameters etc you would always change the offset? Like you would have to change your process to make the most of that accuracy, you couldn't drill and ream any holes as they would wander far more than the difference this would make between hot and cold.

@@fzriow Yes, the accuracy of our parts matter. If you're a job shop that does ±.005" all day long, skip this video and watch Titan wreck some endmills.

@@PiersonWorkholding 😳😂

Nothing in you brain made you stop and think what three tenths means to a machinist?

Yes. Your formula is right for aluminum. Multiply by .0000003 for quartz glass.