That overhead view of the two cars meeting at the apex at 9:05 - brilliant shot!

The 86/BRZ platform is a public service. Amazing that they exist at all. Smile 😊

I saw a japanese video in youtube, they tested both brz and gr86 in track. the brz beats the gr86 and got better lap time. they explain the differences as follow: the brz is more stable and has better control which makes it better for time attack where the gr86 has faster throttle response and more over steer which makes it better for drifting.

Went with the Subaru. Ease of ordering, price (no markup/add ons) and because early reports were that it was a little softer/quieter. Super happy with it.

The reason the power graphs look different is because the scales are different, not because the engine tuning differences result in the torque and power curves shifting in the RPM band and crossing at different points. Look at the relative magnitudes for torque and power at 7000 RPM on the two graphics. We know both cars make the same peak power at 7000 RPM. Since Power is Torque x Rotation speed, that means both cars are also making the same torque at 7000 RPM, but the Toyota's graph would lead you to believe it's making significantly more torque than the Subaru because the scales are different. If talking about power in horsepower and torque in lb-ft, the curves always cross at 5,252 RPM if you use the same Y axis scale for power and torque. If using power in kW and torque in N-m, the curves will always cross at 9,549 RPM if the Y axis scales are the same for torque and power. If the curves cross at some other RPM, it's because torque and power aren't being plotted on the same scale. The Toyota's torque scale starts at 100 N-m but their power scale starts at 0. Subaru's graphic doesn't have numbers on the Y axis, but based on the cross-over point at around 4,800 RPM and the and the relative magnitudes of the torque and power curves, my guess is that their torque and power scales both start at 0 and their power scale is 2x the torque scale. If one car feels peppier than the other, my guess is that it's due to a difference in throttle pedal calibration. Toyota may give more throttle opening earlier in the pedal. Or it's placebo effect.

I ended up buying a 23' BRZ even thought I prefer the look of the GR...mostly because I had a horrific experience at the Toyota dealer and a very pleasant experience at my local Subaru dealer.

The shot @9:12 at the 180° turn with the cars coming opposite directions...... Awesome!

Thanks for everyone who worked on this videos. Great camera work. I would love to see these guys do some track battles or review a challenger

The drone shot of the cars going opposite directions was so cool!

HP = (TQ * RPM) / 5252 Since HP is a calculated figure derived from TQ, they will always cross at 5252rpm. If Subaru‘a graph shows otherwise, it is either not a legitimate representation of the curves or it represents alternative units (eg Nm and KW) that cross at a different rpm because the formula is different.

I’ve been WAITING for this comparison. Thank you so much E.D.

The green is sweet. I know Todd likes Skittle colors, but the dark green gets my vote for appearance. As an autocrosser I'd be curious to see a run down from that perspective between the 86 and BRZ. I suspect the difference would be minimal but it would be interesting. When placing an order in October 2021 there was no way to know how the two would separate their version. It came down to the Toyota dealer no having any information and Subaru being able to give me an order and ETA. With today's supply chain I suspect there is very little cross shopping via test drives. We all take our guess, order, and hope.

What a beautifully videod episode , great shots,creative angles. This video boys is a work of art, one of your best!

This is the video that needed to be made. Thank you so much for getting all these cars together and sharing your thoughts. Cheers!

I really didn't know which to choose (aesthetically, I like bits of both). I didn't realize there was such a difference that I probably would have just bought whatever was available. I'm so glad you guys made this video!

how ironic, all of my car options that I'm considering being reviewed in one video! this is great! thank you guys

Going from my 2020 performance pack BRZ to a 2023 base GR86 very soon... I am so excited! Car gets to the port tomorrow. So glad since I've started my engineering career I have listened to all of your advice and enjoyed this platform, and completely owned up to having the disease.

Excellent video! Very interesting to know the differences are more pronounced than in the first gen! And as others have noted, the editing and camera work is superb!

Great comparison, Thanks for the push to go buy one! Only 500 more miles to go till its broken in and I can fully explore the limits.

Great job guys!! Another quality video and honest critique of the cars driven!! Travis's Dad (learning to drive manual)

Always enjoy the refreshing perspective you two have on cars that literally every youtube channel gets to drive. The difference in ECU tuning is fascinating.

I love them all. Interesting to see they’ve actually put some thought into the feel and didn’t just slap the parts together. I will say though…. I like the front of the first gen just a bit more. It looks sharper to me. I think it’s the more horizontal approach. Looks are subjective of course.

Good back to back gentleman. I am glad to see someone shared with us why they are different. Now to go drive em. (:

As usual awesome video guys. Great feedback on all three cars. The more I watched the more I want one. Just not the right time.

First of all, I loved this comparison - very thorough and nuanced. There's a funny moment at 12:40 when Todd says "on the right canyon road, you may never need to brake" and almost immediately at 12:47 there's a shot of car's brake lights flashing :). I didn't know if you planned that intentionally.

I finally picked up my own GR86 Premium, manual, in Neptune Blue yesterday. First car I ever bought, and I love being in it so much!

As of your posting, I'm very happy with 10 y.o. 1st gen. FRS. I truly appreciate the way you both refer back to the gen 1 cars. Mine has seen the road course a few times and looking forward to a few more times. Back in the day, with my '68 Coronet 440 R/T, I did live 1/4 quarter mile at a time. The problem was that started riding motorcycles, to which Muscle can hardly compete. Had this affordable design been around at that point in time, I might be a retire Race Car Driver. It would be nice to drive the canyon roads that you show, but I'd be happy to run US 129 in TN with you and talk about fun.

Thank you, great comparison and very interesting conclusion.

I don’t understand the comments about the torque and horsepower graphs crossing at different points. 5,252 is always the point in the rev range on a dyno where horsepower and torque will cross paths. Google it! So whatever you guys are saying makes no sense!

As a 1st gen owner, I really appreciated your back to back comparison of the 1st generations on track, back in 2012 or 2013. The differences between the setups of the cars, though subtle, are there, and I'm so happy you've done it again for the second generation. I wasn't sure which one I would like more in the second generation (can't drive them without deposits locally), but your comments make it pretty clear: the 86 has more energy, which is what I want in a driver's car. ....now the real question: the brand new GR86 or a used 987 Cayman? I have a feeling you'll be addressing this in a future video!

Man, I have to say that the production values of your videos are really high. Super sharp and professionally done.

Thank you guys for this video. This is definitely extremely valuable information for anyone shopping these two cars which I am.

This production is right up there. Well done, guys. What a great content here.

Just got the 86 and I’m in love.

Fantastic review! Thank you!

Great comparison, guys!

So if you gave the BRZ the same ECU map as the GT86 you'd have the same responsiveness and the better chassis with lighter steering?

Great review guys! You both did a great job at describing the differences between the two. I own a first gen BRZ and have been trying to decided if I should add this new gen to the garage. You guys definitely sold me on the GR86 over the BRZ if I end up getting one.

Thank you for posting this video - subscribed!

Thank you guys! After this video, I have finally made up my mind about which one to get!

👏👏👏For the shot at the 9:05 mark.

The differences sound like some pretty heavy confirmation bias tbh lol

Nice shot at 9:10!!! Very ingenious 😌👍

A good friend of mine ordered an identical BRZ in December and took delivery of it in June. Before it even left the dealership, he installed coilovers, a brembo big brake kit front and rear, unequal length header, full exhaust, short throw shifter and a few JDM bits (he's a Subaru master tech). As a former owner of a '13 BRZ Limited with a few mods, he let me drive it on some local twisty roads while he road in the passenger seat. You guys...oh my God, I drove that car as hard as I felt comfortable on a public road...I scared him a little bit. The whole time, the car remained DEAD stable and planted, very neutral in corners and the tires wouldn't even squeal...it just refused to let go. And you're absolutely right about the overall feel of these cars, that BRZ felt so much more solid and "finished" than my '13 BRZ did. second-generation

Great vid...it would be cool if you guys would be willing to drop the oil pan on your GR86 and check for silicone as part of your ownership experience.

HP and Torque always cross at 5,252 RPM so I am not sure what is meant that they cross at earlier or later points.

So enjoy your channel.

Thank you so much for your videos and your channel. Whenever i consider cancelling my pre-orders here in Australia, i watch your videos and im reminded why i love driving and my enjoyment of sports cars. I look forward to my GR86 arriving in March 2023. Thank you

Fascinating that the differences are so discernable!

Thanks to bringing to light the differences between the cars - kind of the first mention of the power delivery differences.

the hakone color combo is honestly sweet af

Thanks for the in depth comparison... Now my mind is made up!

drove both.. they're ABSOLUTLEY DRASTICALLY OVEREXAGGERATING about the differences between the power. watch them even race in a straight line its essentially equal.

We need a gen2 hakone edition with a couple TRD performance mods added in !

Already at 12k Miles Love this Car! Keeps me goin!

I own a 2022 Neptune Blue GR86 and love driving it everyday, I find reasons to just go for a drive.

These guys deserve to have way more subscribers than what they have.

I went BRZ route because of markups on GR86. I am planning to put on every STI accessories that come out that improves handling starting with flexible v bar. Not going to do any engine related mods for warranty period but I assume the response would be fixed with a tune.

Love the forest green color with that bronze combo!!

nice film work going on

The smile on the new BRZ is interesting. It’s not the smile you make when you’re happy. Its the smile you make when you’re uncomfortable in a situation, like if the guy who was sitting next to your group at the bar just very loudly and angrily bullied someone else out of the bar, and you thought it was going to turn violent. Then they sat down back next to you again.

Are you guys concerned about the RTV sealant issue? Hopefully Toyota/Subaru can address this before the engine possibly dies from oil starvation.

I'm glad I picked the one I initially liked the most. Thankfully I don't have to regret a GR86 over the BRZ.

That dark green looks amazing on the old one

Thanks for your detailed explanation of the differences. The GR86 is not necessarily the better car. It is better for the two of you based on your preferences. While I agree that the GR is the better car for the two of you, your detailed explanation of the differences helped me decide that the BRZ is the better car for me. I have put down a deposit on a BRZ, based in part, on your reviews.

Fantastic video, gentlemen!! I desperately want one of the new GR86es in Hakone Green with the bronze wheels and tan interior! Please, PLEASE Toyota, in Hakone green!

Yaaaaaaaas! New everyday driver video day!

Can you guys please investigate the excess silicone sealant breaking off into the engine oil, clogging the oil pickup and causing engine failure in GR86s?

Have you heard of the Silicone issue affecting the 2022 BRZ, 86, and WRX ? I would like to hear your thoughts on that matter. My car is actually an affected car and have seen silicone on the oil dipstick and there are plenty of other people online now talking about this on forums and uploading videos of them looking into their oil pick up tube.

Great report. Ya made me think, maybe I made a mistake ordering a BRZ, BUT I am 66 with replacement knees and a back held together with titanium. I ordered a stick, so the added sophistication of the Subaru will be welcome. I get amused by BRZ owners who look down in the Subaru.

Great sharing, thank youu

I'm looking forward to the end of mark-ups era on the GR86 and I'll buy one at MSRP or less. 😉

That shot at 9:05 is so good!

Love the green paint on the Hakone.

With the first Gen I prefer the look of the BRZ. With the new generation Toyota absolutely killed it with the styling on the 86. The differences in appearance between the new brz and 86 are subtle, but imo the 86 is stunning. The first time I saw one in person I was almost drooling Very torn as I’ve been looking at a bunch of 2014-17 brz and 86s planning to buy one… but my heart just pulls me towards the GR86 so strongly

I’m confused. “Nice to see such a broad difference”, and “if we’d driven the BRZ first we wouldn’t have bought it”. And in the next breath but “the level of nuance we are talking about…”. I get the suspension differences, but I wonder if the actual engine difference between the two is primarily throttle mapping? That can certainly make a car feel more urgent.

One of the best comparisons of the twins out there! I‘m on the waiting list for next year for the GR…. Can’t wait and I will push my MR2 roadster even harder until then

So glad these cars exist!

This boxer engine are so good on long distance driving. I don’t feel fatigued at all. I’ve driven 2000 miles for 19 hrs straight I wasn’t even exhausted when I got to my destination.

Wow! I've watched SO many reviews of these cars, and nobody has noticed that the ECU tuning is different, and better in the 86. I assumed they'd be identical. Perhaps because most of the other reviews were of the individual cars, not back to back. Great job deep diving into these cars, and thowing the previous gen in there for comparison too. I've got the '17 BRZ with performance pack (Sach dampers, different wheels, Brembo brakes), and it was the first year with the shorter gearing and the (mighty) 5 HP and torque bump. It's fun to drive every time I get in and has been bullet proof. That said, still casting the sideways glance at the new gen. Perhaps when supply chain isn't such a circus. This will be good information to help choose between the BRZ and the 86. Thanks!

My choice is the BRZ 2023 Limited as my new daily driver. I prefer the suspension from what I've heard, the idea that the same motor makes more power for Toyota is obviously a tune or something that can be overcome. Can't wait for my new car :D!!!! Also I can actually get a BRZ good luck with a GR.

Its the first time that any reviewer points out that the tunning of the engine on the BRZ and GR86 are different, and that the Toyota 86 gr performs better than the Subaru BRZ in this aspect. Most of the reviewers only point out that the only difference were in the suspension components, and that one of them was arriving to the tests with DOT 4 synthetic brake fluid to better withstand the track abuse.

This video just solidify my decision on buying the GR86!

When they first came out I was 100% team GR86 for looks. The BRZ has grown on me sooo much. It looks more sleek and mature, the 86 is starting to look tacky imo. Can’t go wrong with either.

So it sounds like you should buy the BRZ for the better suspension, then take it to your local Toyota dealer and have them disable the fake engine sound generator and reflash the ECU with the GR86 tune. This will give you the best dynamics of both cars. Then, depending on how you feel about the looks, you either live with the Subaru's front bumper and lack of rear spoiler, buy an aftermarket bumper and spoiler, or try to fit the Toyota front bumper and rear duck bill spoiler and paint them to match. Problem solved!

Looks like I chose correctly! Now to wait for the GR86 to come .

1st Gen Subaru BRZ owner here. Okay it's more like Gen 1.5 because it's a 2019 after they updated the engine in 2017 if I'm not mistaken. What is sounds like is that the 1st Gen Toyobaru Twins (R.I.P FRS) are Windows Vista and the 2nd Gen Subayota twins are Windows 7.

11:30 Interesting how the engine is tuned differently on the BRZ and GR86. I don' think any other channel picked up on that.

Whats crazy is that every measured performance test shows the BRZ to be faster. In a straight line, around a track, whatever, the BRZ consistently comes in a few ticks quicker.

its finally here. nice

I had a 2013 FRS. I saw a GR86 last night. Now I want one again.

I hope they do the rtv recall done asap.

11:34 I thought torque and horsepower always meet at 5252rpm? I'm confused now.

At 14:30, the analysis of the driving experience reminds me very much of how the ap2 s2000 was tuned more for comfort than the ap1 which was a more aggressive driving experience. BRZ ≈ AP2 S2000 GR86 ≈ AP1 S2000

You guys are really Gud at exaggerating stuff. Always go for the OG, which is the BRZ

You guys do know that torque always crosses HP at 5252rpm due to the formula used to calculate HP being-Horsepower = Torque x RPM / 5,252. Likely the scaling of the graphs is different or you are dealing with some display tomfoolery.

Have you guys had the silicon sealant issue? Any silicon in your oil pan due to the extra thick layer of silicon that Subaru / Toyota applied? That would be my only worry with the brz and gr86 right now. Oil starvation leading to engine failure.

Yep, I drove the GR86 on track for 4-5 laps, and got that “I should buy one” feeling. Great comparison!

Very nice video! I'm looking of buying the new BRZ. I have driven the previous model BRZ. Is the suspension of the new one stiffer or not? Thank you for your answer in advance!

im confused you keep saying you notice the power difference when driving them back to back but what about side by side? you have them both did you not do any roll racing from 20 to 75?