The value of this series regardless of which "team you barrack for" is informing a prospective vehicle purchaser of the appropriateness of a vehicle to match the desired use and for existing owners demonstrating what the potential real-world limits are when using the vehicle. As a new (and previous long-term) Defender owner I understand the passion stirred on both sides but appreciate the usefulness of your work.

Glad you enjoyed it

@@L2SFBC definitely am. I. Also picking up tips for my Grenadier.

Much appreciated

You are welcome!

Wild wheelspin should be avoided, but sometimes...you need to just send it and that means bouncing, sliding and wheelspin. The car should allow you to do that.

@@L2SFBCI agree, but from a practical standpoint my P400 defender has far too much power/torque for that to be a reality. I’ve climbed huge sand dunes with the engine on the limiter, with zero throttle cut. It works out okay. I do wish it would allow full control, but I does enough the get me where I want to go.

If you're getting 20-30k "wheel spin" then you have a whole new set of problems!

I had the D250 for 2.5 years and never got to the bottom of the new Defender cutting the power when you just need momentum. The reason I was given was that when the new Defender spins it's wheels beyond a certain speed it cuts power to protect itself from damage. My guess would be that this is where LR believe you should be winching, but there isn't always a winch point available. It's one of the reasons I sold it. BTW after selling the vehicle I was told in hi box the power isn't cut, it's only in low box, so you could try locking it in M1 hi box to see if it improves matters.

Not doing that hill in high range! And typically ESC is disabled in low range...odd Land Rover see fit not to

Thanks James, seems another example of a Land Rover's computer cutting in just when you don't want them to - this is a consistent theme through the comments, and there are some who say "it's in the wrong mode" - well, we tried several and in low range that should be enough. The Grenadier did not appear to restrict throttle at all, as it shouldn't. The dune wasn't too dangerous, I could stop halfway around and not roll, but I've done steeper where you can't safely stop halfway...I would not trust an LR not to chop my power doing that!

Ha ha, well I suppose the computer stopped it spinning up the downslope wheels and sending you on a roll!@@L2SFBC

Sell it and buy a proper off road vehicle! You could see that the shite pommie built pretender had wheels hanging…limited travel IFS AND IRS suspension airbags all tight showing what a heap of junk they are! 😂🤣 Trash! 🤣

A good idea!

That is correct. I cover this in the review here which I discussed with INEOS before publication. It is a poor design in my view. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/gbqXqNOTx7jKn5s.html

hi - disabling something like ABS would disable all the electronics, and the Defender would become useless. It absolutely relies on electronics to have any offroad capability, in contrast to say the other three vehicles which have lockable centre diffs and decent flex, not computer-controlled. There is no way to disable just ESC on it. "Ice mode" is/was a problem also on the Nissan 370Z for similar reasons. Electronics are not always good...

Yes parts of it appear to still be active. ESC has levels of sensitivity - in road modes it will interven early and permit little slip. In offroad modes it will allow more slip. However, if it is not entirely off, eventually its limits will be reached and it will activate. Pressing the "off" button doesn't necessarily mean switching if off like a lightbulb. Different TR modes have different calibrations for ESC (or DSC in Land Rover terms) and you can reduce it even more with the Off switch. In sand for example, I would run Sand mode (most of the time) and DSC additionally off as far as it'd let me.

I’ve found that the new Defender can be limited by DSC, so it’s worth trying to turn off at the switch. The terrain response settings also affects its operation. I would try Rock Crawl which locks the centre and rear diffs and keep a steady throttle trying a steady 2000 rpm to start. The Defenders don’t respond well to an on/off throttle technique in my experience, loss of momentum due to this can often result in a failed climb. Using this I’ve climbed some steep ascents with only one wheel having traction. Wheels do leave the ground frequently. Low traction launch can be handy in the right circumstances too. 👍 Great work!

I’ve found that the new Defender can be limited by DSC, so it’s worth trying to turn off at the switch. The terrain response settings also affects its operation. I would try Rock Crawl which locks the centre and rear diffs and keep a steady throttle trying a steady 2000 rpm to start. The Defenders don’t respond well to an on/off throttle technique in my experience, loss of momentum due to this can often result in a failed climb. Using this I’ve climbed some steep ascents with only one wheel having traction. Wheels do leave the ground frequently. Low traction launch can be handy in the right circumstances too. 👍 Great work!

That's right. They dont know the car and still doing the test 😂

The Grenadier had an electronic problem and stopped engaging its lockers. They came back later on.

Thanks, but I don't quite understand your request?

@@L2SFBC Your conclusion is good but could you leave a bit of time after it as its not quite enough time to hit the like button before the next clip starts.

ah ok thanks

Look at the other videos in this series.

I tested an Ineos last year and it had really temperamental locker engagement both ends... Ineos excuse was it was final prototype and still a bit buggy. Some owners on groups report really early cars suffered similar intermittent fault but a recent software update has cured many of the gremlins. Perhaps this Grenadier was a very early build?

The locker problem is explained here. Checked with INEOS before publication. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/gbqXqNOTx7jKn5s.html

Can't argue with any of that good comment!

EBD is electronic brake distribution. It does not mitigate roll over it distributes braking force where it is needed. There are programs which do focus on anti roll.

@@L2SFBC That's what my comment says. They are two different systems and the separation of those two make for a better offroad experience.

ha that's exactly what I've proposed for years! but we are edge cases so it won't happen, and it seems JLR is more interested in lifestyle events and fragrances than ceding control of their cars to the owners. I doubt I could get any response that would be meaningful, probably just a "we optimise our cars..." etc. Their business model is their own call, and I'm not going to say it's wrong, but it's not aligned with what I do.

Yeah, it’s a shame. I wonder if LR Australia would fly the flag on behalf of local off-roaders. No doubt you’ve tried that too.

Too much of a niche market and not their focus. The last L663 special edition came with a surfboard and the last owner event was at Byron Bay.

Perfect example thanks! The car would know the steering wheel is turned and therefore reduce the allowable throttle, essentially putting its own well-being ahead of the driver's commands. This was my problem on the dune in the D4. A little tip; if you can manage to be opening the steering whilst applying throttle then the ESC systems are less likely to restrict power. But, it's still intensely annoying and classic modern Land Rover behaviour. I think it's dangerous and therefore shameful. If the car can't do something then okay, but you NEVER want it actively working against you and that's what modern Land Rovers do in extremis. I think INEOS got that right with the Grenadier, as do the Toyota and Nissan.

@@L2SFBC It's not the first time I've encountered it; muddy ruts in Zambia (in the very same car incidentally) where it was also bellying out in the soft mud also caused the same issue. All of these electronic devices are marvellous and make these vehicles go places they really shouldn't, but particularly with Land Rover products, you either have no wheel spin or no drive at all, and when they get really confused they get REALLY stuck. Zambia for me was a perfect example of that, because in that situation there was no workaround.

I don't think it's so much confused, the engineers just decide to put the car's well-being ahead of the driver's request. So many times I have thought "I'd like to see these engineers with me now" not just in Land Rovers, but other vehicles too. It's not every day this sort of thing happens, but when it happens...it's a problem. Another video in this series will highlight another Land Rover shortcoming on hills.

Intereted to know what the LRE instructors say. If they understood, and had to follow the company line, or if they simply didn't comprehend.

also your Series vehicle would have no BTC, so interesting it worked better than D3 + BTC - DSC.

Very true!

Tend to agree, but LR's TR system really is very good. The Toyota BTC is so good the rear locker is almost never needed. This is not the case for other vehicles eg older Rangers like mine.

@@L2SFBC I think the systems work as intended by the designers and engineers. Certainly in controlled test conditions. But in the real world, they just seem to cause confusion and frustration for owners and then when add in other factors, 20 inch rims, winches that are near impossible to use because where they’ve been mounted, auto handbrakes etc etc. It’s no wonder few 4wders choose such a vehicle for general off-road use. Even mates I know with up spec LCs with drive modes spend quite a lot of time stopped trying to work out drive modes, and their mates can’t really help because they aren’t familiar with the menus etc. It would probably be less of an issue if they took it wheeling every weekend. But those people tend not to in my experience.

Very fair comments

Lol. You are me exactly. And it is exactly why I went from an LR4 (and I had the rear locker version) to a Rubicon. These mode operated four wheel drive systems can be very good, especially when you learn how to continuously apply at least some throttle so that the computer can figure out what is going on and make all the corrections continuously, in light to moderate offroading. But push them into more serious situations and there are always issues with them taking over at the worst possible moment. And even in light to moderate scenarios as a driver you are faffing about a lot which becomes quite tiresome after a while. If a vehicle is serious about being an offroader to the full extent, it has to allow all of these things except BTC to be disabled and, ideally, also have front and rear axle lockers that are selectable by the driver with no BTC at all. And of course the other thing is articulation. And as the Land Rover demonstrated this is less about maintaining traction, as many modern TCSs can maintain wheel spin with a wheel in the air, especially with consistent throttle applied allowing the computer to calculate properly, but rather is about safety as trails get more extreme. Quite simply wheels off the ground is the quickest way to a rollover. It’s kind of ironic actually- these electronic TCS, air sus vehicles make easy tracks and light offroading simple for the inexperienced offroader- and as this what 90% of people will do offroad open up offroading to more people. But as soon as you push them into harder stuff, they make offroading more difficult. And of course they also have so many more failure points that are usually the kind that are not trail side repairable, just increasing the odds of the veh leaving you stranded (the air sus on an LR4 having an issue and dropping to bump stops and also killing your ability to access the offroad modes is my very real and personal experience example). I loved my LR4 and it got me all the places I wanted to go for a long time, but as I began to push it into harder stuff ai just got tired of fighting my own veh. I just wanted to be in charge if the decision making and not the car and not be wasting all this time. And also, because I solo a lot, I was nervous about a breakdown leaving me stranded. There were just too many electronics that the veh was reliant upon that any failure and I’d be screwed; and those can’t be fixed trailside. With the Rubicon I just selected the lift for my wheeling and it’s just Hi or Lo (and with Lo being looooowwww), axle lockers yes or no, and driver skill. The way I like it. Oh, and solid axles, because again, as you push these onto harder trails, IFS or full indy sus failures become real problems.

@@L2SFBC Robert. Another real work massive factor seems to be loads and mods. I’ve found that loads, especially where the COG differs from the factory specs and the added weight of mods, plays havoc with BTC. I suspect because, a heavier vehicle will need more throttle input to move the vehicle and thus the brakes need to work harder to stop the unloaded wheel spinning freely. I’ve found the BTC less efficient than from factory. It would be interesting to see a new defender loaded right up with touring mods/touring loads to see how it compares to an empty stock one. I’m personally very anal about where I place loads in my vehicle. Being cargo seems to orient towards the rear, I’m always trying to shift heavy loads low, and as far forward as possible. I think I really heaps stability and capability. (Race driver in me coming out) lol

Nothing at all!

I agree to a large extent. I would like a vehicle which has a solid foundation of mechanical-only, augmented by electronics. The LC300 embodies this well - with no electronics at all, I could certainly still get places in it, but with, it is amazing. The Defender is the opposite, without electronics, it is nothing.

You can do everything in that video in the patrol with out using any of the driving programmes. Just leave it in normal on road mode, lock it in, decide wether you need low or high range, into drive then go. The patrol is only one of a few vehicles that also still has active traction control in the front if you have rear locker engaged. That 300 series is the gr so it has lockers front and back if required. Also the drivers in this video need to learn how to use throttle control so they maintain momentum and also let the traction control do its thing.

@@L2SFBCthat is supposedly the whole idea behind the Grenadier.

@@Stevegrande1 my 1999 ep91 Toyota Starlet has brake traction control left foot braking look what they can do in the UK two-wheel drive trials.

Absolutely!!

Why not?

The Y62 is awesome off road in rutty sandy wombat holes, leave the second best vehicle (the Y61) for dust. Surprising for such a big vehicle with independent suspension. I think it gets it's advantage from a longer wheelbase than all the other vehicles that dig the wombat holes and the excellent flex keeping the massive tyres on the ground.

DSC is simply Land Rovers term for ESC. DSC cannot be fully disabled and most cars do disable it entirely in low range. Not Land Rover.

@@L2SFBC correct.

Absolutely

Yes

Again the terms of "oversteer" and "understeer" used incorrectly as the car in the manufacturer video is skidding not understeering or oversteering, it will do one or the other it is impossible for then to do both as it's down to steering and suspension geometry not other forces applied to the vehicle. You cannot define whether a vehicle over or under steers if the vehicle is in a skid. Over or uner or neutral steer can only be calculated when all wheels have full traction. Here is an example that most will understand, a vehicle with a locker engaged will tend to understeer because the locked front axle is trying to keep the vehicle travelling in a straight line. Another example is when the steering rack is in front of the axle, the outer wheel is pulled in greater than the arc for the correct track, so the vehicle actually turns tighter than the average arc of both wheels, that is oversteer. If the tracking is too far toe out, the vehicle will understeer, if it is too far toe in it will oversteer. anything else is a skid and should be treated as such in theory and practicals as it teaches you to drive better.

It was in mud ruts. Different modes were tried. However no special mode selection should be necessary if the car is in low range it should not have ESC enabled regardless of mode.

Learn to drive off road and not rely on expensive rubbish vehicles..👍🏻😂

with the Wrangler

Of course it would ✔️

No one out there who hates the defender is doubting the off-road capabilities… the car ist superb… the haters hate it because of the lack of reliability when you are out in the bush.

This is a very fair comment but unfortunately there are some who stil doubt the Defender's rough terrain ability.

Really? Some people have said it's horseshit, what makes you think it's bullshit?

No they are not.

Have you actually driven one or are just one of those people I just laugh at cause they really don't have any idea? I have one and taken it up far worse than what is shown in these videos in both wet and dry conditions. The only problem I have had is a slow leak from the factory tyres, and that was fixed by buying some decent LT tyres, which I think just about every new 4x4 has the same issue. Every 4x4 I have owned since the late 80's has required me to relearn the best way to drive it offroad, and guess what the new Defender is no different and it has been a steep learning curve. I have not had the problem yet with losing power driving up rock faces or wet badly rutted and slippery muddy tracks worse than the one in this video, so I am not sure why this Defender does this, but so far mine has not, and I have driven up places in it that other vehicles struggled to drive up.

GXL is now 120k 😮