Watching the extremely low passes during the durability portion of this outstanding set of tests, got me to thinking..... Could GR try to recreate the Rambo 3 Tank vs Helicopter scene? Hind vs T72 I believe.

Alledgedly Soviet crews in Afghanistan carried reloads in the Hind hold so they wouldn't have to go all the way back to base. That's possibly a big benefit that neither the Ka or AH have.

I remember way back, flying an Apache on the C-64 in "Gunship". When targets were distant and relatively close to one another, I could launch a few hellfires a few seconds apart, and switch the laser between targets as they got taken out. Boom! Boom! Boom! Saved a lot of time.

Hind. But I am an old geezer and it’s an iconic raptor to me. Saw it at air shows in the 70’s and 80’s. Great flying by the whole crew. Pitch and yaw in a helicopter takes some skill.

A good test, but the doctrine difference between the Ka-50/Apache and the Hind are *totally* different. A Ka-50 or Apache would sit back and launch missiles with the safety of distance, whereas the doctrine of the Hind is to come in fast and low with the benefit of surprise.

23:21: Its probably faster due to it being a contrarotating design. It has two rotors providing thrust/lift compared to one and does not have a tail rotor adding to drag. 26:00: When you fly low enough that an infantryman ends up putting HIS face into your Shakval.

Pro tip, yanking the stick and/or rudders around is not a good way to evade ground fire. Since the change in direction is so short the momentum keeps the helicopter/jet from actually changing course and you end up just losing speed a bit. I use the "slow stir" method that works really well. Just cycle the stick in a small figure 8 pattern or some other small random pattern and do it so you make one "stir" every 3 seconds or so. It makes it really easy to dodge gunfire.

I agree with a lot of this. The vikhrs are lackluster for armor but fine for lightly armored vehicles. The Shark is also really easy to use for various ground attack strategies, and it's also super fast, whereas I've been having a ton of difficulty with effectively using the apache. Dont have the Hind so I can't speak on that too much. I was suprised the Kamov was as survivable as it was, but I think that comes down to the pilot skill more than the capabilities of the aircraft itself.

It appears we’re going to need a AH-1Z to balance things out

This is exactly what I asked for. Outstanding buddy. Also the U boat video was great, be cool to get a quick tour of the bridge to explain the basics

Interesting comparison, but, the biggest deciding factor is which helicopter has the best wind screen wiper system.

Loving you guys running through all these scenarios. fun and informative. tThanks to you and the team

I own all of them and I like each one. They are different, but each of them really deserve some love

Got a good group of friends there Cap . Thanks for all the content and much love from CT

I prefer the Apache just because when I was stationed at camp taji in 2009 working at the detention facility there, an Apache was always overhead providing air cover and reconnaissance.

I believe Ka-50 is faster cause counter rotating blades … edit: from this point on was wrong. See reply for actual reason:P

DCS needs an AH-1, from the G to the Z.

I flew several times over 50km (once even over 100km) back to base in Ka-50 without it's tail (plus returning to base successfully after losing all hydraulics). I wouldn't have made it even a km in other helis without it. That automatically makes it the best heli for me. A strike against Mi-24 is the absolute horrendous "stability" of the DLC when it released: 30 CTDs in first 10 minutes without running any mods and with graphics set to best performance over detail. My fav heli is still Mi-8 though. Love the Bus. Too bad development was dropped long ago and we'll never have all that was promised (multicrew, nose machinegunner, ATGMs, etc.).

Surprising how many pilots fired at the closest targets first. And thus obscuring targets at the back with smoke.

Everybody who ever heard Hip or Hind sound IRL got to love that sound. I mean in DCS it's not bad but IRL it sounds cooler, there's room for improvement. I love ED for great job they're doing. And thank You for doing this SCIENTIFIC work.

Makes sense, the Apache was designed primarily as a Tank Killer

Beam riders are inherently disadvantaged by direct flight. HELLFIRE, Javelin and other systems use diving tactics.

Amazing comparison. Many thanks

Definitely going to have to revisit this once the Apache gets all the other capabilities.

Of order of the ones I like by looks / cool factor. 1. Hind 2. Kamov 3. Apache. Reverse the order as far as which I'd want to take into battle.... especially given that I'd have better logistics / maintenance flying something American :D

honest good work, enjoyed every moment. :)

Love the videos!!!

You should do the first two tests again but have the ground units be able to shoot back, then it's a better test of deciding to either get in close or stay further back.

Ripple fired radar guided Hellfires, or even just IAT with MTT (ie. all features that are missing from early access, and George in his current state really struggles with manual tracking) Apaches would shred this test, not even a contest.

Apache all day - I like the looks and the history of it. It does need two people to make it work effectively, but then again so does the Kamov really (the Ka-52 two seater is the one we see in use in reality)…

It's not surprising that the Hellfire is doing better than the Vikhr, as the latter was mainly designed to be cost-effective... you can fire 4 of them for roughly the same price as one Hellfire. But, except for a couple of your campaigns, that doesn't generally matter in DCS. Maybe it will if/when the whole RTS campaign thing comes out, that could change the balance quite a bit.

The conclusions I've come to for the American attack helicopter capabilities (future models) are: 1. Fire and forget missile system. 2. Increased carrying capacity of laser guided fire and forget AT missiles. 3. Fast rearming missile "magazines". 4. More accurate chain gun targeting system, with 3-round burst limitation choices. 5. Improved low level attack strategies for both day and night operations. 6. Improved IR decoys... fewer, if necessary, but maybe 2X or 3X bigger/hotter.

Monkey for life.... Insane pilot skill. Great job on missions and how you put the test. It was lot of fun to watch. Thank U for content.

Interesting, and expected results :) I STILL want to see a ground race between the wheeled choppers! :) Must keep all wheels on the ground which is fastest and stable?

Really entertaining. Re-run with Hip versus Huey and Gazelle? I think you'd have to leave out the anti-tank bit though?

Hi Cap. Still loving the YT videos. For those of us who don't have all the DCS 'bells & whistles' (eg Winwing joysticks, throttles, etc.), is it possible to do a split-screen of 1. a real human Grim Reaper flying a helo/fighter/warbird, whilst simultaneously, 2. showing DCS world & the aircraft flying. Think it would make a great YT post, plus one of you gets to show off their superb flying skills 😉

Hey Cap, does DCS have a MI 28 Havoc ? If I remember correctly, one of the design features was that it had air to air just to hunt down Apaches. Cou you do an air to air over Las Vegas like you did for the Gazelle ?

I love the AH-64 but its the only one I own thinking of getting the KA-50 next

My favourite is the mi-24, also the only one I don't have in DCS. Never meet your hero 😪

That was fun!

Would think flying lower would actually be worse, because most of the armour is on the front and bottom, and the engines, the only thing you really need to worry about from small arms fire here, are going to be more easily hit as more of the enemies have line of sight to them at such a low angle.

I'd like to see target acquisition ability to be taken into account. The Apache with its radar and FLIR should have a clear advantage but how much of a difference does it really make to skilled drivers with good eyes?

Those infantry were the best marksman in the world. They lit those choppers up everytime they came through.

Some do not understand that two propellers are two blade weights and two swashplates. And these two circumstances are not at all the advantage of the Kamov helicopter.

+GrimReapersAtomic *As of 28 March 2022 only Bugeye® Technologies (USA) supports the AH-64 model with cyclic and collective:* AH-64E Cyclic FC2000 (P/N 20B120712-1001) and Gimbal FC1000 (P/N 20B120844-1001), plus AH-64E Collective FC2000 (P/N 20B120784-1001) and Bearing FC1000 (P/N 20B120736-1001). F-18 Rudder Pedal FC2000 (P/N 24B120009-1001) should be good enough for yaw input. OtOH, VIRPIL® Controls (BLR) supports both Mil-24/28 and Kamov-50/52 with cyclic and collective. The MongoosT-50CM2® Grip (C/N VPC-007) and Base (C/N VPC-109) with a 200mm extension (C/N VPC-602-200) will function as cyclic for both, and the new ACE™ Torq™ yaw bar (C/N VPC-304-001) provides antitorque input for the Mi-24/28 and differential collective for the Ka-50/52. The SharKa-50® Grip (C/N VPC-011) and Rotor-TCS™ Base (C/N VPC-111) provides collective. VirPil also offers a SharKa-50 Engine/Armament Panel (C/N VPC-403) One helo not modeled yet is the USMarCor / Bell Helicopter Textron AH-1 Zulu, which packs equivalent engines to the AH-64 in the dual General Electric (USA) T700-GE-408 plus four-blade main and two-blade antitorqe rotors, but is 30% lighter. Again, only Bugeye supports the AH-1Z, with the UH-72 Pilot Collective FC2000 (P/N 20B120535-1001) and Bearing FC1000 (P/N 20B120736-1001). F-18 Rudder Pedal FC2000 (P/N 24B120009-1001) should be good enough for yaw input; but I cannot find the sidestick cyclic in the Bugeye catalog. Unless Bell went with the Esterline grip for the A-10 and F-16, which Bugeye replicates with the F-16 Grip FC2000 (P/N 20B120152-1001) and F-18 Desktop Control Mechanism FC1000 (P/N 20B120093-1001), that is.

Best tip for the ka50 , turn on manual weapons mode and turn on aa mode for vikhirs . You can snipe ah74 from 9k away

So many variables in this test. What it lacked in accuracy it made up for it with entertainment value.

My favorite is the Apache and I think if they just went with rockets and gun they would have done better.. but I have a soft spot for the KA-50 so I'm happy with this vid.

I would like to point out the Apache's LOAL is designed to allow you to have multiple missiles in the air, so even if you're playing it safe you can launch in 10 second intervals basically and continue following the pattern, because the Hellfire only needs the final 10s to hit its target

Wait until the FCR and the K-Hellfire comes out. Then the Apache is unbeatable in terms of kills per second-

Looks like a lot of fun. As for the results, I say meh. Since the Pilot variable will always be different, since each pilot have their own strengths and weaknesses. I think the Apache could have easily won the 2nd round. Since Simba got like 10 kills in 1 minute, and if he had the whole 10 minutes, then he could have easily won that round if it wasn't for the mix up with the target boundaries. For better results, I would suggest doing basically the same thing. But instead each pilot will get a 3 rounds in each helicopter. For example Simba would do 3 rounds in Apache, then 3 rounds in Hind, then 3 rounds in Ka-50. This will allow you to measure each aircrafts limits without the obvious variables that arise from different pilots each flying only 1 aircraft.

I wonder if they will add the Eurocopter Tiger and Mi-28 and how they will compare to the Apache and Ka-50

How many people here actually seen one of these live in action raise your hand🙋‍♂️

once i saw two of this beasts. i was in near Ghazni Province and two polish mi 24 flew past us so close that i felt evrey vibrations on my skin. that is something out of this world. so much power and beauty like an ancient evil , like Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse in one helicopter

Remember that winwing technology is your ultimate hardware solution :) 91

Nice and fun video! A minor thing: calling the Ka-50 "Kamov" is like calling the AH-64 "Boeing", or the Su-27, "Sukhoi". Kamov is the manufacturer The Ka-50's nickname is either Black Shark (from the Russian Чёрная акула) or Hokum A, its OTAN designation.

I really hope they add KA 52 with clickable cockpit etc

Speed does not matter with more-or-less straight and level flight. Even minor heading and altitude changes, continuously, make targeting much more difficult.

28:45 ЯuSsIaИ sTяOиK! 29:05 Smatry Ekran! Vuypusty Chassi! (Сматри экран! Выпусти шасси!) 31:48 This is fine!

Nice

I like flying the Hind the most but yeah I can see why on a single sortie the Apache can do the most damage with that many Hellfires.

The gun on the Kamov sounds AWESOME!!!!!

Sorry if I missed it but was the APC in the toughness test using 7.62mm MG? Or was it using an HMG chambered in 12.7 or 14.5mm? If it was eating HMG hits all this time, that would be quite impressive, especially given that HMGs are no joke.

I managed to bring a kamov back to base without an engine or tail. Its tough as nails.

cool video, in real life Apache is still the best, most feared attack helo, bar none

Is there any possibility to make a video about the Mil Mi-28?

Apache for me. Deadly and long distance firepower

The Ah-64 has an advantage that the others don't.. well... thats when it gets it... The FCR and LOAL.. the AH-64 can ripple hellfires and have the missiles walk the tragets while in flight.. While the Ka50 and Hind can only launch 1 missile at a time... well the Ka50 can also ripple missiles.. but it takes a lot of skill..

Great test on DCS but in real life I've seen the Apache absolutely dominate the anti-personnel role. The Apache is known for sitting back and ripping insurgents to pieces during night attacks. But I have no idea how the Kamoz would do in real life. I think it may be better on paper but no idea how they would compare.

The Apache, its the deadliest helicopter ever made. Excited for its successor

I wish I was there in a ka50

Was the ka50 getting the blackshark III this year?

Does DCS have the Marine corps Cobra you should try it cuz there's actually four in that class two American two Russian if you're trying to do the comparison

Apache! Pure American Muscle!

I love the KA-52, it has good weapons, easy to fly, good looking and it can take some serious fucking punishment and still be airborne and bring the pilot safely down to the ground! I had a particular mission were I got hit multiple times by spaa and near misses by hostile sam’s. I had no tail, lost my left “wing” and one engine was in a really rough shape and I still managed to get her home and down on the tarmac!

Love the patchy.

Canister munitions work amazingly on the russian helos. Golden opportunity missed on infantry and mtlb

The IR missile on the KA-50 is accurate if the perimeters are right.

Kinda love the hind. Cool cinematic ideas of it gunning its way in, dropping of an elite team and then running CAS.

Ka-50 cannon puts the AH-64 gun to shame. You can use it to snipe soft-medium armored targets at 3 km with ease.

My best helicopter is the KA 52 because have a high speed and a 6 hard point so it has a big payload and the only helicopter has a ejection seat

Apaches were designed against Soviet era doctrine, which was overwhelming numbers of tanks swamping the theater and rolling right over NATO forces. So the Apache was designed as a counter to that. And it was specifically great at doing so. But, yes. The rocket systems on the soviet machines would be better at chewing up infantry carriers and personnel.

It’s a great day!

You'll have to re-do this when the FCR system is added. Lasing always takes longer.

Favorite in a real world capacity: Apache. Favorite in looks and potential: Hind.

Hellfires follow curved flight profile to use a top down attack to hit the weaker armour

Has anyone seen the latest Top Gun 2 trailer? At 2:09, that looks like a SU-57.

If you could only buy one which would it be, the hind or the Apache ?

Around 20min, watching Simba kite the tanks going guns guns guns makes me wet!

Apache is supposed to be able to lock 16 target thru Tad's and ripple fire Hellfires, all missiles fly towards same target and deviate to next target on impact the of 1st or designated flight time to target.

the apachie needs another year or 2 to work out the bugs and smooth out.. i wish it had Side arms. Aim9s, stingers, and Laser guided rockets but no fun allowed i guess

The hind can hover it's the whole fire solution to get that ''tone'' with Petrovitch depending on altitude that gets tricky

The apache right now can fly without engines, all you need is to stick a few 23mm in there and they happily spin, even without fuel. The apache is great. Lots of firepower, lovely avionics package. The gun is a bit of a let down, especially without the extended ammo. The kamov is just a dream to fly, the gun is a sniper cannon and the missiles work well on anything but the heaviest armor. Against buildings and bunkers they all suck, even with the ka50 bombs, but with the apache at least you can lase for the aircraft that do carry bunker busters. It will only get better with the RF hellfires and the FCR.

were they not allowed to take rockets on the 1st round? cause the ka50 can take 10 s13of rockets with the 12 vikhr missiles. on the 1st round the ka50 could just take kh25ml's and fire right off spawn and rearm over and over again. also the ka50 can use the hmd to lock the laser cam onto a target which aims the gun

There is a bug where Apaches aren’t killing troops. Seems to depend on the angle of attack. Shooting down is more lethal. Could be a blast radius issue, but direct hits often leave troops unfazed.

Must be something strange with the server going on because a few missiles desynced and didnt even hit. The only tank I have not 1 shot/ critically damaged from the front with the vikhirs is the Leopard 2A6, everything else is a 1 shot.

I like all three of them, but I'll give the edge to the AH-64 because the chain gun is traversable, unlike with the Kamov and the Hind, and it has the better radar and target acquisition sensors. The hellfire is a good tank busting weapon, but I don't think this video does the 9K121 Vikhr missiles enough justice. These missiles are just as effective against tank armor as the hellfire, but it would be nice if they were to detonate over the top of the turret or the hull.

Yes but the Apache has flir plus radar. They can search for targets much better Also they’d be sitting far back at a safe distance behind a ridge line and lobbing rockets.

the difference in gun capability between the shark and apache are like cheese and chalk. i understand the apache gun is a "area suppression weapon" but with the shark I can engage and destroy IFV's apc's ect from about 4km with the gun reliably , which is around the guns max range with sheet loads more accuracy giving the shark an effective secondary weapon Against targets that shoot back at you, that stand off range and accuracy of the sharks gun is a real difference considering that closing within rocket range in a battlespace with lots of enemy units might not end well. Enemy light armour tends to shoot at around 3km which i think is the apache guns "effective range" if you can call it that. I spent all 300 rounds of apache gun on 1 IFV at around 2km with no hits using George which is a real issue leaving a rocket run as the only other option. I haven't be able to kill light armour with the apache gun myself from anything close to a stand off range or any range really. The area suppression system just doesn't seem to be useful at all against any type of armour which is your main foe on servers etc. and not Toyota Hilux's and poppy farmersand thier families, Although i could be a shit shot (george is just completely woeful on the gun) and want to be proven wrong as i believe the gun should be effective tool against light armour or otherwise whats the point. Black shark gun effective, apache gun looks cool. Rant completed.

the apache is supposed to have over 1000 rounds for it's gun so it could just go point blank and destroy all the personnel and light armor targets. I think the kamov was overperforming in the endurance test, although it's the fastest, it shouldn't have taken all those bullets for that long.