Tonight, let's talk RTS. I've had on my mind and heart, the desire to talk more about games and RTS', specifically regarding pacing. SC2 is really fast, WC3 is slower, where does AOE4 rank? And why? Which games are more micro and more macro heavy? These incredibly fascinating topics deserve a lot of exploration and I'm glad to do it with my community here on Twitch and KZfaq. Do you have ideas for future topics?

Honestly grubbys ability to explain and articulate really sets him apart from even great streamers and pro players. Imagine if he was a full time, pro league RTS coach in another timeline

The day I see Grubby playing Age of Mythology my life will be complete

"Delaying games until they're done." Pour one out for Frozen Throne being rushed out so we never got a proper Illidan vs Arthas cutscene

45:25 All of the 20 years of Age of Empires 2 competitive scene has been played on randomly generated maps. There very few exceptions to this have been proof of concepts experiments that didn't gained any traction, like the Mirror Map Showcase (procedurally generated, but mirrored so both players have equals halfs of the map). It is clearly possible to have a highly competitive scene playing in procedurally generated maps; 20 years of random map been the standard for competitive Age2 easily proved that. In my opinion Grubby's concerns with having random maps in competitive can be explained by 3 factors: -He doesn't know that competitive age have worked that way all this time and prefere it that way. -He doesn't know how important the "explore" part is in how Age works and how it gets ruined if both players know the map before hand. -He doesn't know how orderly and limited the randomness in the maps scripts really is. It's not just putting random things everywhere; what, where, how and how many of something can spawn is a carefully decided consideration in the design and balance of a map. Random maps are the weird ingredient that Age has have since the beginning that sounds like it wouldn't work, but it does and makes the exploration of resources in a map have replayability. It's unique to Age in the RTS world and a necesary part to its longevity. It's a foreign concept to other RTS in which it probably wouldn't work, and that's the position from where I think Grubby is talking.

Random maps work well for AoE2 esports, there are definitely big stars and the procedural generation is done in such a way that the maps are relatively fair, but some need adapting. For example if you dont get a nice treeline around your base it may be a good idea to play more aggressively as you can't wall as efficiently. It can work very well imo depending on how it is tuned.

I grew with Wc3 and AoE 2 but after I tried Sc2 i was hooked instantly, I love the randomness of it, multiple ways to approach a match and no rpg elements make it really fast paced and for me is the best rts ever made to this day even tho I love the other 2. Sadly I no longer have the time to play ladder and compete in rts as I used to do But I revisit the campaigns from time to time.

Gosh, this just made my day. Thank you for covering this! I've been so curious about this for so long!

I really love these insightful analysis that you make every now and then. Happy to see more in the future!

I love that you represent the rts games Manuel! I wish the games were more popular

RTS is my favorite genre of game. Definitely not the most popular game type but god damn I do love it. My peek is diamond 3 in Starcraft with Terran.

32:50 "I think it's important that this genre exists" me too Grubby. Also, I strongly agree with your opinions on each game's aspects

You’re a real one for this topic, masterfully done thank you!

Love this type of content! Thank you Grubby.

Unprepared and getting rushed: AoE: No worries. I can still build up an army from scratch to fend off the attack. WC3: Hold on for dear life to survive. SC2: Game over.

Really liked this video and appreciate an expert's view of the genre. It's obvious that Grubby cares a lot about these games and understands them at a high level.

Finally . That is exactly what i ver much wanted from a player who has passion for rts genre and played competitivly on highest level in multiple games . A deep analysis and comparison between games that is what always interests me ,while i dont even play these games but very much interested in their concepts and facinated about player skill

Thank you for this video man. Very great one and enjoyed it a lot. Thank you for the Age of Wonders: Planetfall shout out. Very good 4x tbs game. :)

i could listen to pros like you talk about video games for hours.. wait a minute, i already do.. :D enjoying the content!

Great video, looking forward for more of your AoE4 impressions.

Hopefully the people at Frost Giant studios see this video and use it in their discussion on the RTS game they are working on

awesome video, the perfect background talk while practicing my rocket league mechanics :D

I liked this sort of structured comparison and explanation. I would gladly listen to more. The start of the video was very tight in terms of focus (talking about WC3) When talking about SC2 and AoE4 focus was relaxed a bit. Still you remained mostly on topic.

As an MOBA player and a viewer I do find both SC2 and WC3 enjoyable to watch. In the past I watched a lot of WC3 pro games but recently I watch only SC2 pro games (maybe because of Reforged devastation), but I'd say I really like both games they are unique althrough the same company created both. My personal viewership experience is that WC3 is indeed kinda slow but SC2 is extremely fast paced. If someone wants to make a modern RTS (we need to speak for this with Frost Giant xD) they should place the "pace meter" somewhere between WC3 and SC2, I remember in their interview they were asking for suggestions if maybe "should be faster than SC2", I think the limit should be SC2, faster than that would be too much, so I'd say DMG:HP ratio (units&battles) AoE 4 should be the most balanced one, and something to pick-up from. Thanks for the nice video, I'd personally like to hear more comparisons like this. Cheers.

I wish C&C Generals: Zero hours had become more popular. Despite its political incorrectness in its depiction of the world from today's pov I feel like it's still the most fun RTS game to play. Especially flying units it did better than any other rts game up to date.

Love this type of meta/game analysis content

I've been playing SC2 for over a decade and can't wait for a new RTS (AOE4) to play. Before SC2 I played all the Command & Conquer games as a kid.

Great video as always!

the variety of races and pros and cons to them might be an important factor to love the RTS :)

Grubby every so often you should just sit there and talk to us.About anything.Maybe a mini podcast every now and then.I enjoy hearing you speak

I think Total War games count as RTS games (with a mix of 4x if you consider campaign) in their multiplayer and tournaments since I don't remember seeing pauses and game speed used in pvp battles (W3 and SC2 do have pauses and game speed too if you think about it) There's resource management (gold pre-match) and army caps, matchups to consider, micro, positioning and, if its Warhammer, Winds of Magic and spells to consider as well.

Grubby is a huge knowledge base on RTS. It's enjoyable to listen to him talk about it. Pacing is so important. Now when people choose to play an RTS game, naturally they look for the fun in competing to exercise their strategic sense/planning etc. I wouldn't want my games to be boring and unchallenging. I like starcraft 2 more and more because it has that kind of fun I look for. It has just the right amount of things to do within a game, which in turns allows for the high level of exercise in strategic and tactical thinking and execution. It also allows for mind game, bluffing, feigning and outright macro intensive strength to strength and fingers to fingers competition. All of the elements of strategic competition existed in such a system which I think is beautiful.

Great video. Would love to see some "Beginners guides" for AOE4 :) Keep it up Grubby

Interesting take, I would also recommend checking AOE2, concerning pacing I think there is heavier leaning on macro, at least in my opinion heavier than SC2, as one has to look for resources, adapt to the map and things like starving enemy of specific resource are also a thing.

Very fun and interesting video. Love hearing your thoughts on the difference between WC3 and SC2.

For WarCraft III, in some cases you do have the opportunity to choose your starting hero based upon what you see from your opponent -- specifically, if you are starting with a Tavern hero. This doesn't come up much for Orc or Human, and only occasionally for Undead, but it's decently common for Night Elf (or at least used to be -- Night Elf Tavern hero start seems to have partially fallen out of favor recently).

AOE 4 sounds to me like the best things about WC3 and SC2 mixed together :)

I'm excited about AoE IV. No game is perfect on launch as far as I'm concerned, but what matters is that the devs and the community work together and communicate what works and what doesn't so that the game can grow and become better.

As a fan of yours I find it even a liittle bit frustrating that you have not tried Age of Empires 2: Definitive Edition. My fav game alongside WC3. Day9 is loving it recently. It has sooo much deepness in multiple fields like macro/strategy/pace/civs. The more complex macro in any RTS, at least in any esport RTS. I think it's a good timing to try it before the release of AoE4, because maybe after such release it doesn't make much sense. I would watch every second of your AoE2 content and I am sure a lot of other people would too and I would support it eventhough I don't have much money now. Great video and I like a lot this kind of podcasty content from you.

It would be exciting to hear a similar analysis on sc1 and wc2. And maybe on Loria (aka warcraft 2.5). Thanks for the excellent content.

Sounds like grubby could give an annual state of the game for Warcraft honestly. I’d crowdfund

Random maps can work for e-sports, but there needs to be a lot of restrictions. Just to sum some up: equal amount of resources on each side of the map (resources can also be somewhere on the middle line), resources need to be on equal distance from starting point/ home base, starting resources need to be on the same side of the base (so both players have a certain resource either towards the middle or away from the middle).

Such a perfect video! Love gaming analysis whenever I can get it. Surprisingly, 31 dislikes, more than the AoE4 videos. I would really love to hear a critique of this caliber made for Dota2/LoL/HotS, and for Eternal Return, but it literally doesn't exist yet. - Adûnâi

For AoE4: they should just add a button where you can hold left alt and a magnifying glass appears around your cursor, and you could size it's box or circle boundaries however big you want it, and it would basically zoom in on whatevers inside it, but the cursor itself doesn't change.

And I'm talking only about cossack 1 and 3, the second was much different and I think the third one is closest to the original and most suited for competitive

would be nice to see uptodate of this topic about the differences between these games and stuff like that. pros and cons

What do you think about spellforce 3? Does it have major flaws as it is not considered here?

Have you considered playing Warhammer 4k? The lore seems cohesive with wc3, and the total war warhammer series looked similar to sc2. Very curious to hear your input! Thanks for the awesome vid grubs

The only reason C&C isn't still thriving is because EA bought it. The best thing that could happen is if they sold the IP.

I would like to shed some light on games like Supreme Commander and Planetary Annihilation. These games have never gotten enough exposure and they are great RTS's.

Not recommending players to pre purchase a game is in general good advice, but using the abysmal release of W3R is a bit unfair towards Relic and Microsoft. Age4 is already in a much better stage than W3R ever was, and with the open beta (aka technical stress test), everybody got a chance to play and test it. Plus I don't remember Relic releasing a game in a bad state. They might not always be as successful as they wanted and conceptually flawed (Dawn of War 3), but from a technical and feature perspective, they released in a good state.

Yo I was a huge frozen throne and AOE2 player back in 02thru 08 I miss those years footie frenzy too!

I was not the biggest fan of aoe2 or 3 but 4 has really captured my attention, which is great because i havent been so stoked on an rts since sc2 vanilla. Since blizzard has changed and dropped the ball off a cliff into the fires of mount doom, i am so happy to see how good aoe4 looks :) (shame dawn of war 3 didnt end up so sweet)

First of all, it's really thankful for me to get the difference between AoE4 and WC3(SC2). I know AoE4 is more familiar with AoE2. Will you play AoE2 in near future one month before AoE4 releasing?

There was one more super RTS games series which we used to play almost as much as Brood War and Warcraft when they came out - C&C Red Alert and Red Alert 2. I think they kinda ruined it with RA3 and beyond. I think it's worth mentioning it :)

Majesty is a game where you produce units, but the units have their own will, and do whatever they want to. The units work like heroes in wc3, level up, use items, learn spells, kill monsters, explore etc. Imagine WoW, but you play as Stormwind and watch the 'players' run around. It is a very interesting concept and a fun game, although frustrating at times when the heroes wont do what you want them to. EDIT: I'm talking about Majesty 1 of course.

luv u grubby. king of da orcs.

AoE4 has a completely new hotkey setup for AoE2 people as well lol Also the farm thing is new.

I think SC: BroodWar should've been discussed too. It's still the pinnacle of RTS.

Crossbows in AoE4 aren't anti-cav, but anti heavy armor. Both infantry an cavalry have light and heavy armor units.

I would love if you tried the dawn of war serie, these ideas could get pretty interesting with these games that bend the formula.

Great talk! Btw I recommend you to try Majesty game. It is very different than line wars in Warcraft. Instead of dum creatures that are autoproduced and go fight in a straight line, you have computer-controlled heroes that lvl-up killing monsters, buy items in stores, use potions, abilities, etc. It is very different than line wars. Due to their random behavior though, you can't really play PvP, - so it can never be esport or closely compared, so it is not in the same way an RTS like WC/SC: it is more like a simplified simulation of a fantasy kingdom, rather than e-sports game. But it is what makes it cool. I recommend Majesty 1 (2000) rather than Majesty 2 (2009), - just my personal preference. Unlike Paradox games, which are kinda RTS too (also different than WC/SC), Majesty isn't that long game: 30-60 mins per map normally.

Hey Grubby did you try SpellForce 3? It seems interesting

I think they confirmed that ranked will be out from the start now? There were some confusing statements about a lot of other post-launch things they will add

Hi Grubby have you played any of the Company of Heroes games? CoH2 still has a following and tournaments running 8 years later also, I would consider it one of the next most important RTS franchise after StarCraft/Warcraft/Age of Empires. I think it would be an interesting game to add to the discussion it has a large focus on micro and unit control like Warcraft 3 and almost no macro compared to StarCraft or Age of Empires. It has a very interesting mechanic that directly ties your economy to the amount of the map you control which creates an interesting dynamic. The developer of the Company of Heroes franchise is also the one making Age of Empires 4 and they also have their own Company of Heroes 3 coming out in ~2022. With ex-Blizzard Employees forming Frost Giant studios also it's looking like we could have an RTS renaissance coming.

Grubby id love to hear your thoughts about Starcraft:Brood War compared to these more modern games. I think BW is the most brilliantly designed competitive video game of all time and it’s a shame more games don’t borrow concepts from it

20:37 Where can I watch this? when did the tournament happen and vs who

Hi Grubby, did you ever shared your thoughts about the game called Cossacks? It is very fast paced game, I think most unique

32:40 There's no justice in the world!

I transitioned over from brood war to wc3, then I got all excited about sc2. However, I just couldn't stick with it. I love how heroes play such a huge factor in making every game in wc3 much more unique. By no means is sc2 a bad game, in fact, it's excellent. But for me, it simply lacked the magic that the heroes in wc3 added to games. Anyways, regardless of my preferences, it's always nice to see RTS games have a solid place in this industry. It's often shadowed by the more popular genres like FPS, RPG, and racing games. Still, when it shines, it shines pretty freaking bright!

Game devs need to pick this mans brain to make good games. Great analysis!~

I'd be really interested to hear how Grubby thinks Broken Alliances matches up to these and what he thinks of it.

I like to watch WC3 and SC1 more than SC2. I like SC2 but the units die so fast, a lot of the times I barely catch what happened. The RTS with the pacing I like best is Red Alert 2. The units don't die too fast but battles also don't get dragged out too long.

Can’t wait for Frost Giant Studios to finish their RTS game and free Grubby & ToD from the Activision Blizzard shackles. ⛓ ☃️ ❄️

Smite Arena has good pacing. and true action combat with good communication system and many gamemodes. it is MOBA but still.

Imagine a new WC3 Expansion - holy that would be magical

Do hope Grubby tries to deep dive into Aoe2 (esportwise) or even Aoe4

I'm not very fast and can't really focus well. I'd say I generally suck at RTS. When I was playing Warcraft 3 melee made me really anxious and my heartrate went up every game. SC2, when playing competitive the first time literally made me dizzy and nauseous. It felt like I was constantly spending, expanding, training, and just could not spend my minerals. I just built more and more production buildings and the whole thing was just feeling absurd. It's really like a rollercoaster.

i'm convinced that the last aoe2 expansion was the team experimenting for aoe 4

Grubby can I also ask about your production? Do you edit, upload and manage everything yourself?

Have you tried Spellforce 3?

I havent checked out AoE 4 but hopefully it paves the way for more well made rts, the old classics are great but im sure someone can make a homerun game with todays standards

After playing a lot of sc2 and wc3 the thing that popped out for me trying AOE4 was just the low ability to just go make a unit and go do stuff with it right away. I guess I put a lot of value in harassment and getting to the PvP part of the game quickly.

Let's get that Age of Mythology gaming on here.

Hey Grubby, It would be interesting if you kept playing AoEIV, I do feel like it seems very new, even to fans of AoE2. And if they can inprove it in a way that AoE2 definitive edition has been, its bound to be good.

looks like Manuel put on his helmet of flames )

No preprders!!! :) looking forward to aoe4 even though I'm not much of an rts player

I am diamond in Sc2, Recently picked up Aoe4, been playing for the past 2 months a lot, now Plat, and I find Aoe4 the easiest. Meanwhile I've been trying to improve at wc3 a few times but i feel i still suck the most at it. Which is a shame because Warcraft is my favorite franchise lore-wise and all. I think ill stop Aoe4 for now and try to get into Wc3 again

I mean.. I don't think that it does not matter what you do in a battle in sc2.... yes I agree, what you bring into a battle is extremely important, you can't just throw mindlessly whatever in there and expect to win.... but if your unit composition is decent you can win fights where you're at a severe disadvantage. Blink Micro Force Fields Siege Tank positioning splitting surrounding.... those are all micro-techniques which will grant you wins over significantly stronger forces if just played out by a-moving. Even just spreading your units out before a fight can help to edge out a victory.

I'd love to see grubby playing aoe 2 tbh

On the AOE4 pacing criticism, you must understand that AOE 2 players are very different from SC2 folks. We like things slow, steady and more strategic. Relic is catering mostly to the AOE2/3 fan base. In fact, one of the main criticisms with AOE3 was that it made it too fast with batch training of units, and quicker gathering. So its more whiskey on the rocks than a tequila shot. To each his own!

11:37 StarCraft pacing

What makes a great RTS? Well a couple of things are important. And handled very differently from game to game. One tittle not mentioned is C&C games. Those were the direct competitors with WC1 and 2. Back in the day it was much simpler and less complicated. WC3 was the first true ploygonized modeled game. So growing up emphasis was on direct, raw mechanical play speed and skill. You couldn't micro like today. Units either died fast or won fast so healing wasn't much of a thing for example. What made those games great was the simple design. It also made it easier for devs to pump out games that worked well but looked rather primitive viewed from today. After WC3 this changed and HW also got much better. This was the start of the decline of RTS and traditional text RPGs or adventure games. I personally think WC3 was the real winner back then and layed the foundations for WoW aswell. The pase is slower in WC3 but the diversity of strategies and units in factions really makes it easy to get to grips with but really hard to master. Unlike for example C&C Red Alert.

One thing that makes Starcraft 2 pro matches very lame to spectate is precisely the damage output compared to unit hp. It feels like it doesn't scale all that well towards the late game. Countless pro matches seem to end with two maxed out death balls dancing around each other, avoiding confrontation. Avoiding, avoiding, avoiding... Then finally the fight happens, it's over in 10 seconds and the player that lost the engagement GGs because there's no coming back from that. It feels more like watching a Wild West Standoff than a strategy game sometimes. I'm sure there are plenty of people that find that very exciting and that is fine. Personally, I definitely prefer the longer engagements of Warcraft 3 and Brood War, where you really get to savor the effects of micro, multitasking, hit & runs, repositioning, ability timings and cooldown management etc.

I think that AOE battles will award micro far better once missiles are actually dodgeable.

Aoe is the most Marco intense for sure. But no doubt sc2 is the hardest game ever made all generas

Where would you Rank CnC?

Tbh, I think AOE4 is easier to pick up (might be my bias as a casual aoe2 player but hear me out). You didn't do great in your first few matches, but you managed to win. So there is some balance there. Then there's the pacing: slower and your bases aren't made of glass like it happens in sc2. No 10 zerg rush will ruin you immediately. You DO have to protect your resources, but that's why AOE usually allows you to turtle at lower levels. And you have turtling maps like Black Forest too! This is not a personal critique, just IMO I really do think AOE is better for lower skill levels

I played Age 1/2 from 97-02 all the way to the world championship level. Its a much different game. I did play the Age 4 beta, but was definitely not impressed. The Age series pushed more and more towards a casual player friendly game with more built in early game defenses so boomers didn't die in 5 minutes. At the highest level its always been more militarily macro focused with a high demand on economic management. Its also a difficult game to recover from. An early advantage gained at the 16 minute mark often leads to a predictable demise at 35 minutes as the early economic advantage multiplies over time leading to a victory. While I never felt like it had the smaller fight micro of a Warcraft 3, the top players are extremely good in the late game when populations reach 200 and the speed necessary to manage such a large force overwhelms the slower players.

Company of Heroes 2 is great fun if you haven't tried it.