7 yrs later....I've found this. I thoroughly enjoyed the conversation and angle where the discussion was focused on.. Great Stuff.!!

man, another great one. I nearly lost it there at the end with Judd's number 1 especially when Greg tried to stop him. Funny stuff guys, really enjoyable watching the three of you talk games but this one really worked well in showing that the three of you don't always agree. Very enjoyable video fellas. Keep it up!

Awesome list. I really love when you guys get into depth in the explanation of the game and why it's on the list. Fired up

A very late reply to this but I must admit ASL is a game I'd love to try and explore but I have a hard enough time finding people locally to play war games with as is. I suspect part of this is due to the nature of board game culture in the UK, at least from my experience so far. From my experience it seems as though local options fall down to miniature games which are dominated by Games Workshop (admittedly I there is a small group I play Flames of War with from time to time) or the board game scene appears to be dominated by various fantasy/sci-fi adventures or various other coop games. An excellent video and a great discussion. Keep up the excellent content.

Thanks so much for this. I’ve been working too much of late and drifted away from my hobbies- y’all help to ground me. 👍👍

Excellent explanations for the selections guys! Another great video!

Regarding that discussion at the end, I always felt that the main problem with getting new gamers into wargames was the lack of good "introductory" heavy wargames. Whilst it is fairly simple to delve into the (excellent) C&C system, it does not offer the depth and complexity of may of the Hex & Counter or Area Impulse games (to name a few general systems). On the other hand, getting into those heavier sort of games can be very difficult without a patient and experienced teacher. I think that if there were more games that offered a good breakdown of the "more advanced" systems or were more "user-friendly" (in regards to less experienced players, that is), the hobby would certainly get an additional boost of new and/or younger gamers. After all, war is as fascinating a subject and as appealing a way of approaching history as it ever was. The gamers are surely still there - we just need to make it easier for them to delve into some of these advanced systems.

The ZOC system in Ardennes '44 (and Normandy '44, for that matter) is called "ZOC Bonds" - basically, any two friendly units with ZOCs that are 1 Hex apart project a "ZOC Bond" into that Hex (or Hexside), which prohibits enemy units from entering / crossing it.

Fortress Europa is a great 2 player game. With 3 or 4 , it is a bit of a beer and beer game, no pretzels need apply. Some of my most tense games that went down to the very end were of Fortress Europa 2 player. The Milton Bradley version of course. There is a card which was house ruled that the US Player had to cry out "Wolverines" when it was played.

Loved the comments about Combat Commander. I recently learned it and wondered why it has such high marks on BGG. It feels more like a story telling engine than a tactical game because it emphasizes luck and random events while minimizing the impact of tactical decisions. It's cool, but not my favorite flavor of tactical game. Glad I'm not alone in that observation.

Great video! While I agree with Bart on the "intimidation factor" of ASL, its hard to say anything negative about a tactical level wargame that's been around since 1977, and continues to produce new material. The ASL starter kits are a great idea, I'd take it even a step further by suggesting a deluxe starter/core game. I bought SL when it first came out, liked it, but then got thrown off the horse with the changes that came with the follow on games as the system evolved. In one of the original SL expansions, I think it was Cross of Iron, the AFV rules from SL were scraped and replaced. ASL, even though I'm not a player of it, is much revered by me.

Some great observations in this vid, guys. I'm sure there will be those who will scream against some of the conclusions, but they were all very reasonable. Also... definitely agree: CoIN + Herbert's Dune = The Kwisatz Haderach of the CoIN series.

Hey guys! What a wonderful work! Please, do a TOP 5 Tactical Wargames! HAMTAG!!!

Forgive me for going off topic. ...although I haven't gone though all HAMTAG videos yet ...but have you guys discussed the old West End Games tank Leader series? ( East & West ect.) I just got these and I would be curious for your evaluation of this old John Hill design ?

I enjoyed helping Chad design and play test the Combat Commander series. Yes it is abstract but it works. The system is smooth and well thought out. Private Adamson, American battle field promotion.

Re: VPG edition of no retreat - I agree, it is much cleaner and easier to play.

Excellent video as always. You guys are awesome. Curious, what are some good Vietnam games?

Good show, not a complete wargamer but I appreciate the genre and your collective insight.

I'm kind of along with what Judd said here. I'm of the mind that there's just something broken with the BGG ranking system. I'm not saying they are going about it the wrong way necessarily but I think there are enough variables over when people decide to rate a game (did they just buy it? how many plays? do they still feel the same after 20 plays or 20 years?), the Kickstarter rating effect and the variability around raters based on the pre-buy buzz versus actual purchases as measurement of popularity. So I think some games get stuck in high rankings which seem to require a meteoric shot to the target to get anything else to get by it.

1. We wargamers owe a lot to Twilight Struggle. It put GMT on the map and it spread among non wargamers. The moment such an aweful game like Pandemic Legacy (which simply destroys your components just to be able to resell each year a new copy) will get to number one on BGG, you'll realise the remarks on this game were not very smart. Yes, TS is too competitive for most of us wargamers. But wargaming and certainly GMT profited from this game, so great little projects of love like the upcoming Dauntless could be published too !.... 2. Combat Commander is only on place 6 ... because it is published and greatly supported by GMT... If Conflict of Heroes or Band of Brothers would have been published by GMT they would be up there in the top 10 too. Certainly the solo system of CoH is simply superb for wargamers. Without the complexity of Enemy Ardennes it succeeds in every way, at the same time if it would be in the hands of GMT, we would have had already all theaters covered and more..... 3. The list was quite good actually.

As an ASL player I agree that the barrier to entry is enormous. I even get intimidated by it. Now, Combat Commander is a different animal. I love it as well. It may not be tactically accurate, but damn is it fun and chaotic and fast. And in many ways it's more fun than ASL sometimes, and that barrier to entry is a fraction of what ASL is.

You guys are wonderful--so much better and informative than Dice Tower and other similar format groups explaining wargames. Loving all your work. I did like the comment of a COIN series in space! Honestly if I could find a game like that with reasonable asymmetry and replay-ability then I would purchase. I am writing this as I watch through the review. Now I am questioning Fire in the Lake! Ugh.

I tried No Retreat I think it captures well the change from an early German superiority in quality to an overwhelming Soviet Army and the reversal in the direction the front is moving, however it kind of forces you into the same patterns which deducts from the re-playability of the game. That being said I think it's a good hex game and the rules are simpler than most other hex games I tired.

Thanks for this thoughtful analysis. Appreciate this is controversial, as 'overrated' suggests highly rated or that it has aged badly (compared to new designs) eg. Diplomacy was excellent as a fanzine or club hosted PBM. I liked your occasional comparisons and suggestions: 5. Successors, Diplomacy, Ogre GEV 4. Ardennes'44, D-Day dice, No Retreat (Russian front) 3. Hammer of the Scots, Fortress America, Twilight Struggle 2. StarWars X-Wing, COIN, Combat Commander (Europe) 1. Combat Commander (Pacific), ASL, Fire in the Lake Academics who have surveyed the 'Wargame' population, say we are only 200-300k with a high average age (and climbing fast). The publishers and marketing people know this and it is inevitable that new games will reflect that.

Chief, when are we going to see a review of the Dune Dice Game you did an unboxing of? Real interested in that. Also great to see HAMTAG sticking together, how is your solo channel making out?

Are you fellas in Kansas? I noticed the K-State shirt, and am a gamer in Manhattan, KS myself. Great show.

Hi guys... Love your videos. Would it be possible to consider doing a top 5 war games that is appropriate for kids say between 8 - 18 years. Thanks much. Milton.

Interesting topic, thank you.

Interesting to hear Judd mention Astra Titanus as a better version of the Ogre idea. I don't really know wargames (though I enjoy the HAMTAG videos) but I do own Astra Titanus so it's nice to hear that a wargamer like Judd rates it as a decent example of its type.

Great discussion; thx gents!

Hey, I wondered what had happened to HAMTAG on the Dice Tower. Here you are. What happened? So glad I found you. Just subscribed. My WarGame collection continues to grow. Keep the reviews coming, guys. For what it's worth, I feel that war-games are the ultimate expression of what boardgames should be. But I did grow up with Risk.

Thank again fr a great video. 👍

Before I even started watching this, I already knew that Judd would have Combat Commander on this list.

You guys are not only easy to watch, your personalities all compliment each other. I love wargames and love HAMTAG talking about wargames, but I'd pretty much watch you guys talk about anything. It's like me reading Stephen King. I'd read his shopping list just to read what he wrote. By the way, thanks for NOT discussing your grocery shopping...

Hammer of the Scots is absolutely a good choice. My wife got _so_ frustrated playing this one due to random elements.

Pretty thoughtful effort. Nice idea to explore this aspect. Keep up the good work.

If it's Judd: Twilight Struggle plays very well on Vassal.

Dear friends, I must to give one sugestion... Please make vizual grafic with game name, when you speak about specific game. When I try to find something I need to search for 20 minutes, becouse I can not view topic. All other things, guys you are simply GREAT!

As a San Antonio partisan I agree that the omitting of KC was a travesty. Great job guys!

The only Mark Herman game I have is SPQR (that game is great!) although I have thought about buying The Peloponnesian War. I have watched a couple of reviews and play-throughs of the COIN-series and it's not for me. And, yes, the barrier of entry in ASL is too big for me. I've tried it a number of times but *sigh* those who played were either to caught up in the game or bad at teaching. This was in the 90's before ASL Starter Kit.

Well, Fire in the Lake was my first COIN game and I love it, so much I got A Distant Plain (which I also enjoy), so there is that. I love the approach to the themes. Theme has a lot to do with it: most wargames I've played are about Napoleon, the First World War and the Second World War - and that's fine but helps explain why I rate both COIN games so high: there aren't many good games about these themes. I've played Empire of the Suns, by Mark Herman, and yes, it's a very good game that I'd love to own BUT the thing is I'm not that interested in the theme - this impacts the rating.

Diplomacy was one of the games which got me introduced to wargaming. I loved it at that point. Then I didn't play it for many years and tried it again and discovered that the magic had disappeared simply because everybody had gotten more experienced and knew all the tricks, so nobody could be convinced of anything.... it just ended up with people not bothering trying to form alliances. Now... in a game where you have actual military force behind your arguments, like Empires in Arms, the diplomacy is much better.

(Sigh) Okay..... mind racing at the moment. First... Keep doing what you are doing. A voice for the board wargame is soooo important. Greg, I can relate to many things you are saying. I'm 59 and I see the aging of the grognard. I see the price of our games being an issue for those new to the experience. And we are closer to the veterans of WWII and Korea and Vietnam.. so there is my interest in those topics. However... to Greg and Judd... X-Wing... boys... Stop it. This community is amazing. How many participants at the WBC were playing ASL? X-Wing world championships a couple of weeks ago had 260 players in one location. The Nationals at GenCon had 250 players. Two Regionals that I attended had 90+ each. Players at the Worlds were from all over the world. National Champions from Australia, France, Germany, Poland, Spain, and the list goes on. Judd, no it isn't like Wings of War/Glory. Wings of War/Glory is static and unchangeable. You pick your plane and play.. You have Eddie Rickenbacher's Spad but it is no different than any other spad. You fly Luke Skywalker in an X-Wing and it is different than a Rookie pilot. Plus X-Wing has variables that can be included or deleted from various ships. Yes I am an avid supporter for this game. But please just don't causally dismiss this as not being a war game. And Greg, yes, you close and roll some dice. But then what do you do? You get the hell out of the way and continue to jockey for position to get another chance to strike and take no damage. I am one of the older players but being with the young guys sure makes it fun and my son and I (he is now 29 and been playing war games since he was 5..started out with Battletech.) It makes me feel young as well and I've been accepted as a member of the group.. the old grumpy member but a memeber. ASL is still my all time favorite PvP. B-17 Queen of the Skies is my all time favorite solitare game. I am glad to see Judd on wargamers pay if forward. that is a wonderful group of people. Thanks guys for getting my blood pressure up. And great job. Chief, keep up the great work. Mark Tippett, Grognard since 1968

That was an excellent video! Great to see some opinions get a good airing.

Dune COIN? Holy shit that could work and be amazing!!

Thumbs up just for that K-State polo!

Great list, how about top 5 terrible war games you have played of all time or are no longer in your collection.

Wilderness War is my favorite war game.

ASL aside, I might have said the exact same words as the three of you. So glad I’m not the only one thinking the COIN series might be overrated.

So that means Judd that Fire in the Lake=Blind Faith =)

Yet another great video. Have you guys done a top 5 solo war game list? I am finding it more and more difficult to get game time that lines up with others' schedules.

Great video again. Regarding the digression about the aging audience of wargames, what would you recommend as an entry wargame for 20-30 yo already boardgamer? I've seen your video about introductory wargames, but this is more specifically about the already young boardgamers. play quite often with friends and chose 1775 Rebellion for instance that worked quite well. Falling Sky didn't. Greetings from Switzerland :)

I'm guessing that Greg isn't much of a miniature wargamer, but I might suggest him to take a look at an old WWII miniature game called 'Crossfire' - it would certainly show that not all miniature wargames are about "move first, roll well" ;) (But I totally agree, X-wing IS overrated!)

I knew ASL would make someones list because....Rules.

Before watching the video I'll throw in my picks: Risk- Obviously Axis & Allies- WHY IS THIS STILL SO POPULAR? The is zero decision making. The optimum first turn has been exactly scripted. 90% of the options aren't worth doing. You're just building infantry or building transports to get infantry places. NO OTHER PIECES ARE WORTH BUILDING. EVER. 2 infantry is always better than 1 armor, even when attacking. Technology isn't worth it. Naval units (other than transports for USA & Britian) aren't worth it. You follow the first turn script exactly, build nothing but infantry, and then it's just up to the dice. Even Risk has more decision making to it. The one and only reason people still play this game is because of the WWII theme. Samurai Swords/Shogun/Ikusa is a much much better entry in the Game Masters series. Battle Cry/Memoir '44- Whoever gets the better cards wins. Whoever gets the all out attack card will probably win. Most of the scenarios are very unbalanced. For some reason the games are still hugely popular. Ogre- Steve Jackson games to me have always been 100% theme 0% game. The idea of Ogre is cool, but there is one optimum setup to use and one optimum script to follow. No decisions, just who gets luckier with the dice. Diplomacy- Imbalanced sides, players being crippled with no chance to win but they have to keep playing. WAY too long playtime for the payoff. Cosmic Encounter- Some people consider it a war game. This game is TERRIBLE, but popular just because it's a "classic". Game design has evolved a lot since the 70. It's time to let this one go. Fortress America- Not quite as scripted as Axis & Allies, but still not varied enough. To me, it always felt like it was frustrating to one of the players. In the early game, the America player is frustrated by being overwhelmed. From mid to late game, the invading player is frustrated by stalling out and partisan attacks. It just never seemed to have a satisfying equilibrium; straight from flipping frustration from one player to another.

What is COIN?

As a miniature wargame I have to disagree. I don't play X-Wing but it's so high up because it has prepainted minis, a good IP and excellent mechanics while being pushed by a popular publisher. Hence it has reach, appeal and accessibility. To us miniature wargamers X-Wing could be a lifestyle game but many of us also see at as an excellent gateway game. As for the 'dicefest'. Miniature wargaming is about positioning and risk mitigation. As for Pacific vs Europe. Pacific Commander is more exotic, rarer thematically and more interesting thematically to many.

Did Combat Commander ever allow you to play with Tanks?

Twilight Struggle is the best game that I got sick of playing. It's a good system, except for the fact that way too many swing events come down to one single die roll. The war events, the very first coup, the quagmire/bear trap event. You could be playing great but one of those die rolls completely screws over your game and 2-3 hours of effort is out the window. Also way too much of the game rides on the luck of your starting hand. If you get low cards or a ton of scoring cards first turn, you might as well shake your opponent's hand and concede. It's also tough teaching to new people because you HAVE to know a bunch of events before hand to be at all competitive. They really need to publish a new player helper that hightlights the most "gotcha" events (mostly in the early war): DeGalle, Blockade, Japan, Egypt, the war cards, Muslim Revolutions.

I can't agree more with your star wars x-wing, or other miniatures, opinion. I got excited and bought a ton of them as my first board game/miniatures game, and when we actually played it it was extremely basic and I was bored by the second round

Good thoughts overall... but Twilight Struggle is a war game. Going to war doesn't end the game (and they occur often in the game). Going to DEFCON 1 and unleashing the nukes ends the game, since the cold war went hot. Combat Commander is AMAZING (Europe of course). I own several tactical systems, including Conflict of Heroes, Band of the Brothers, Memoir, etc... CC:E is the best overall game, so it's not overrated. The others are fun for what they do, but if I was to be asked to keep one, it'd be CC:E with no hesitation whatsoever. One of my only two 10s on BGG (the other being TS), though after playing it many times digitally, I can see where the card knowledge comes into play (and I'm gaining it too!) :)

Do one on the top five mechanics and top chromes, yeah that repetition syndrome/ top break through games and the most stupid rule ever. top 5 most obscure eras, Think there's only one game of The Indian mutiny British Empire ect Role play with Strategy?

Good discussion. I like the well informed reasons you guys gave for your picks. So many lists like this are full of reasons that feel more like whims or snark. But the convoluted logic to shoe horn Diplomacy in there was silly. It felt lazy. And Fortress America doesn't belong. It's Ameritrash in its fullest form and should be enjoyed as such. Thinking of it as a war game would ruin the fun.

HAMTAG!!!

My take on an overrated game: "The Civil War" / Victory games. It's a good classic game, but I've never found out how to play it without the strategy part in it disappearing when at some point the south can no longer risk having its army not in one place. It always ended up in monster stacks. And for that reason, I don't get that it's rate just above "World in Flames", which I find a solid 10.

ASL, Up Front, Twilight Struggle, Coin - all systems which can make great games, but have very little correspondence with reality. And people today don't have time to either learn or play them.

Haha.... "Eu*Ro*Gamers" ... Took me a while ... but yeah... I haven't played Twilight Struggle yet, but from what I've seen I really wondered why it was called a "wargame" and I had the feeling (from several reviews) that knowing the deck was way too important.

Yep, TwilightStruggle is probably not a “war game”, but it’s a great game worth playing over and over.

Gentlemen if you please, Its time the sun set on twilight struggle. I think Combat commander's success is fueled by new wargamers. The barrier of entry for ASL has never been lower, Begin with starter kit and work your way up. Anything rated higher then ASL is overrated. Low counter density within an eastern front game can work if its tactical (see H&S GAMES upcoming Ostfront). Thankyou for your time.

I have the first edition of "Fortress America"… Kansas City is on my board. I bought it for the plastic mini's, and haven't looked back… try "Tobruck" from AH, or "Arab-Israeli War"… so many games that are better than them...

Pretty much agree with Comat Commander being overrated. ASL and COIN series maybe. But not Successors as it wasn't talked about much like others. What Bart picks four out of five are not wargames actually and so the charge might be wrongly placed. I go with Judd's choice mostly.

Judd... IF you like "Tactical"... try "Warfighter" by DVG games... Now I know you aren't a solo gamer, but Warfighter can be a multi-player game if everybody takes one soldier each as you can go through the mission. "Memoir 44"??? Try house rule this game... use a good game mechanic and use it with your mini's game. It's more appealing... just like "Battle Cry"

I love Twilight Struggle. Who is the purple shirt bandit :p.

I started ASL when I was 25. I'm 30 now. But all the players here are 40+ yo tho

Totally agree with D-Day Dice. Totally overrated and if it was not an "Americanized" topic no one would care 2 cents about it. Multiplayer solitaire in a war game? Boooooring. Also agree with No Retreat Russian Front. The game forces you to use what would be considered game-y tactics in a good game. I rate it a 3, a poor game that does not simulate the Russian front in any way.

Totally agree that TS is overrated! Disagree though about NRRF.

Dune as a Coin game is right on the Money! Go HAMTAG!

Also cannibalising of and customising of a game rules maps components, don't hear much about this,

COIN yes, amen.

Chief, your wish has been granted! The Expanse = COIN in space

You bashed the classic, Diplomacy!!!!! :(

Successors is yet another piece of Berg tedious crap.

Hook was rubbish!!!

Band of Brothers is completely over-rated. A single 2nd line German squad walks into two fully suppressed elite US paratroop squad's hex, and the paratroops die 80% of the time? That's anything but realistic. Sure the suppression system rocks, but those route checks make no sense.

This Mark Herman cult?? ... I have, like, 10-12 games I would rate a 10 and I have *ZERO* Mark Herman games. ... and looking at what he has made, I have only been slightly tempted to buy a few of them. Like... I just bought "Falling sky", because it was the COIN game which sounded most interesting.... Fire in the Lake... not equal intriguing

Wow, not trying to be rude but I can't disagree on so many of your picks.... UGGGH.... Have I been gone that long from gaming and the DT that DT "reviewers" post that ASL, Twilight Struggle, Diplomacy, Combat Commander, and HOS are OVERRATED? Sad....

Do one on the top five mechanics and top chromes, yeah that repetition syndrome/ top break through games and the most stupid rule ever. top 5 most obscure eras, Think there's only one game of The Indian mutiny British Empire ect Role play with Strategy?