Carbon is an exciting material for hardtail riders, and builders are learning how to maximize its ride characteristics all the time. It can be made overly stiff (like the Specialized Fuze Carbon), or super flexy (like the Trek supercaliber and the SC Chameleon). My full-suspension bikes utilize carbon leaf springs, and they design flex into these carbon leaf springs to provide a unique, tuned ride experience. I think we're going to be seeing a lot of exciting things with carbon in the future (and hopefully a decrease in price). Titanium, when done right, can feel just like steel, at a lighter weight. But you gotta pay to play. Ti is expensive and difficult to weld, and ti frames are NOT cheap. Titanium also doesn't rust, so you don't need to paint it. Steel (chromolly) can have a wide variety of ride characteristics depending on the frame design. If not treated, it will rust. It can be made into bikes that are quite light, but lately we've been seeing some really heavy steel frames, because companies know steel sells at the moment, regardless of how well it's built. A well-built steel frame is a thing of beauty. I wonder why steel full suspension bikes are popular? I'd rather have aluminum, as it's cheaper, stiffer, doesn't rust, and lighter. With a full suspension, you don't need the supple feel of steel, as the shock does that... Aluminum is typically the cheapest material for frames. It can't be bent or shaped quite as easily as steel or carbon, but with the right designer, you can still get a fantastic ride quality out of an aluminum bike. However, that's the excption rather than the rule. Most aluminum bikes end up being overly stiff. As a material, aluminum can't return back to its shape as easily as steel or ti. Think of a paperclip that you bend back and forth. You can only bend it so many times before it breaks. When bent like a paper clip, aluminum breaks sooner than steel and ti. For more education on the topic of frame materials, see this: www.bigshark.com/articles/which-frame-material-is-the-best-pg531.htm
@chrispalmer17734 жыл бұрын
Oooooo a middlechild battle, that should be interesting. As far as frame material, ride what you can afford and what feels good, in my opinion
@jonmarshall15024 жыл бұрын
Thanks for such an interesting topic. I rode a 26” steel mountain bike for years and still bring it out on occasion. I believed in the steel is real ethos, then I discovered 27.5+ hardtail bikes, hmmm. I’ve evolved from a size too small alloy Honzo (that I absolutely loved), then I rode a correct sized alloy Fuse. For me it’s perfect, and I experiment with air pressure in the tyres to suit the conditions. Big tyres and hardtails with good geometry are just about the best thing I’ve ever ridden in mountain biking.
@tarstarkusz3 жыл бұрын
Steel is much tougher than aluminum. This is a physical property of steel. Steel is also stronger than aluminum.
@vespacheck2 жыл бұрын
I had a 2021 27.5 fuse, I was disappointed, I don't think I gave it enough time to get used to the slacker geometry, and the size of it. I've got a 29er now as it was cheap, and it feels more responsive than the fuse, but more stable at speed. My previous 2011 cube xc 26" was far smoother than the fuse over the bumps. The fuse felt big and soft, but didn't have the grip, handling or comfort I was expecting from the big wheels and tyres, and modern suspension and geometry.
@theblishknovk4 ай бұрын
@@vespachecki have a medium 2021 fuse 27.5+ and love it. I am 5'9" after breaking back, long torso short legs. I test rode a large too. Felt like a limo in comparison for me.
@randyhou85224 жыл бұрын
What a great talk on frame materials! I love that you emphasized frame and tubing design, something I knew about but maybe not prioritizing enough. Also rider weight which I didn't think about. I've thought about this topic alot when I was researching my hardtail purchase. (ended up with a steel Stanton Slackline, which I love and will likely keep forever) One thing I would add is that even though frame design is probably the most important factor, there are inherent qualities to the materials that allow for more or less suppleness. For instance, comparing aluminum to steel, steel is much stronger and more resilient (able to flex and still maintain structural integrity), giving it more potential for springiness. This is why springs of all kinds are mostly made of steel, and not aluminum, because once aluminum flexes, the integrity of the metal is compromised, not so with steel. For this reason, aluminum frames have to have a certain degree of stiffness to ensure that it maintains structural integrity. Therefore if the frame is built well, I would venture to say that using steel would give you greater potential to build suppleness into the frame vs aluminum. I believe this is even truer for titanium, so you can have a very supple AND strong frame using titanium. Love the channel, keep up the great content and hope it takes off for you.
@pmorleck2 жыл бұрын
This makes a lot of sense and such an interesting topic. For the last 3 years I have been riding a Salsa Timberjack Aluminum and I thought it was completely normal that I was getting bounced around on it (for reference I'm a bigger ride +250lbs). But this week I have been demoing a Surly Karate Monkey and I never knew a hardtail could be so comfortable. In this case I'm digging Steel.
@solitaryrefinement67872 жыл бұрын
...because steel is real. 😎 I've sworn off carbon & aluminum forever. Now, I'm only going to ride steel. I'll try titanium to see if it's worthy of the praise it gets, but stainless steel frames are just as durable and a lot less to build up and are stiffer and more comfortable. Titanium is going to have to pull a rabbit out of the hat to get me to jump onto that bandwagon.
@davidgeiger86204 жыл бұрын
Hi Steve. I bought a nordest bardino 2 frame and built it up. You were right with the geometry of the cheaptrick. it didnt realy fit witch reach and stack. now i am happy,i found my bike,a steel nordest bardino 2, fantastic!!!
@lastname13864 жыл бұрын
I ride a trek Stache 7, and i love it!!, and i am a pipe fitter as well, i use to weld light speed bicycles when i was laid off from a shut down
@alexw32464 жыл бұрын
This is gold! I've never learned that much about frames in such a short time.
@tjay_mac4 жыл бұрын
Awesome video as always! 👌 I cheaped out last year bought an aggressive (or what everyone now calls, “hardcore hardtail”) aluminum hardtail, Marin San Quentin 2. I put 2.8 size on that bike with Pike fork then I took it to Santa Cruz Mountains. 😐 That frame was stiff AF! It felt like an over inflated plus tire and I was bouncing all over the place! Couple of months later, I bought a Guerilla Gravity Pedalhead and moved the components over using the same tire psi. Took it back to Santa Cruz Mountains and, wow! 😲 That frame is so supple. You can really feel how the rear stays are absorbing those stings especially when I do some of the drops (not to flat) and the landings were so smooth! I couldn’t believe it! I also have a 2010 Niner MCR with Crest wheelset. That bike is nice and supple but its more of an XC bike. Other bikes are the On-One 456 Summer Season & 45650b. Those bikes are also supple but not as supple as the Niner. Definitely not like the Pedalhead. I did not expect to hear that Chameleon is supple. I know some aluminum are supple. I read the Nukeproof Scout is more supple than some steel frames but the Chameleon? 🤔
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
I almost bought one too, but the stack was way too low for me. I felt super hunched over, and I had to side up to a large to feel right on it. It felt super awkward to me. Even though it was 60% off, and it was worth the price just for the parts, I passed on it
@listom1222 жыл бұрын
All my frames are steel, but it’s attributed to the reputation and artistic properties of a reputable builder, in my case, Cameron Falconer, who builds frames to specifically ride to your style and body type. Both my Falconer frames are baby smooth and never a disappointment to ride. As you reference, its all about the builder and experience behind the art of frame building. Trade off is cost, but 100% worth every penny if you enjoy and love the ride quality.
@justinl76403 жыл бұрын
Are you going to review the marin San Quentin 3 ? It would be cool if you did;-)
@Chorge19723 ай бұрын
Can’t wait how the Switch9er 4130 I just ordered will feel coming from a Slackline 535 Gen2
@jasonstella743 жыл бұрын
Well done... 👍🏻I ridden all bikes in all materials.... Carbon, Steel, Aluminum, Ti they all ride differently.. My favorite Aluminum HT is my Schwinn HG it fast and but completely compliant. I got Easton UltraLight Tube Yeti and Rocky Vertex Both ate fast but brutal. Ti Voodoo is a dream supple and stiff. Rocky 853 tubes bike is awesome... All retro HT rides...
@halnogaies1256 Жыл бұрын
This one video solidifies your position as the HardTail whisperer.
@hardmtnbiker4 жыл бұрын
Great overview and great explanations on the frame materials and build details. Personally I’ve spent many years owning and riding aluminum, steel and Ti hardtail’s. I haven’t been on some of the newer hydro-formed aluminum or high end carbon hardtail’s. I completely agree that “steel is real” is just a branding thing and I also think high end Reynolds,Tange and True Temper doesn’t mean that those steel frames are going to feel better, it’s truly dependent upon other factors like you mentioned. I’ve owned 2 Sir9 Reynolds 853 frames, both full rigid. The older had a steel fork and it was real supple feeling. The newer had the new Reynolds DBZ steel and a carbon fork. It was much stiffer. Last year I bought the new Esker Hayduke frame, not the new Sir9, it felt supple but not as much flex as the original Sir9. Anyway, obviously the Geo and build dynamics play a big part of the feel. I like my Ti frames but that’s another story.
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
Spot on, I agree 100% I rode the heyduke last year. I think it'd s decent platform for bikepacking, but as a trail bike it didn't really wow me. It wasn't as supple as I was hoping either.
@markkligerman68614 жыл бұрын
Steve, you have some real good advise and wisdom here. I built up a china carbon 27.5 non-plus hardtail with high end parts. I absolutely hated the way it rode. So bone-jarring stiff. I even thought my SID was broken. So I took it apart, sold the frame, and put the parts on a new Soma Riff (steel hard tail). What a difference!
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
Soma makes some cool bikes! A lot of people write off hardtails because they've only ridden bone jarring stiff frames. Not all hardtails have to beat you up. Thanks for sharing your experience.
@theblishknovk4 ай бұрын
You 100% are the guy who should be building frames!
@chameleonpogono4 жыл бұрын
Perfect how you basically say how each person will see a bike different. I had multiple people tell me, a while back, to not try carbon frames cause they are stiffer.. Also, 29's would be better for me. I can understand why, though, knowing my condition. However, carbon feels, in general, better on my joints. Also, 27.5 feels better. Oh, I was recommended longer frames. So, I like the opposite of what people suggest. I have a hardtail background since the late 80's. I'm used to a "smaller" feeling bike that I can throw around. Wouldn't mind trying some hardtail bikes and see how they feel. So, go out and try bikes before you buy! Glad I did!
@VelkePivo8 ай бұрын
Nice. I’ve always had (in the past) steel hardtails and just thought it was a given that aluminum was harsher. Good to learn better.
@jimbodini1002 жыл бұрын
I rode a Jamis Dragon slayer for 5 years and was a nice ride , it was a large and I weigh 215. Also had an old Jamis Dragon but to small for me , that was a nice soft ride , 853 Reynolds tubing.
@blackthanos9143 жыл бұрын
I've owned quite a few production and custom steel hardtails. Both 26er and 29er. My custom Ted Wojcik steel 29er is easily the best bike I've ever ridden. I initially went steel then custom steel because I'm 6'2 and 240lbs. I was flexing frames and breaking chains like crazy. Especially aluminum frames. My Ted has a double butted Columbus Life main triangle with Columbus triple butted chainstays that Ted said were exceptionally rare to acquire so he recommended them. The bike was built for east coast woods riding so its aggressive with a relatively short wheelbase. Its both responsive and smooove. Just an absolutely beast on the trails! Had it since 2006 and its still perfect for ME.
@FuriousPacif1st4 жыл бұрын
Just got my Guerrilla Gravity Pedalhead. I am transitioning to mountain biking, its been a blast so far.
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
Welcome to the mtb family. I hear that's a really fun bike. Enjoy it, and welcome to the channel.
@carravagio164 жыл бұрын
your spot on, i remember riding a mid 90's GT Zaskar -6061 Aluminum and man that was the stiffest, harshest ride, i went on to shy away from anything aluminum for a long time. Then i rode a more modern Stumpjumper w/ Specialized M frame and man it felt smooth and comfortable, two totally different designs blew my mind and made me rethink the material
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
The 90s Zaskar LE was my dream bike. Funny enough, I just picked up a '94 karakoram yesterday and I love it even more than the zaskar.
@abel2cycle9894 жыл бұрын
No questions. Just a comment. I rode my first black diamond trail yesterday. I came across a hiking couple with a baby, who said they were mountain bikers, and the guy told me, he couldn't believe I was riding this trail with a mountain bike, and doing it on a hardtail! 😁🤙... yea a few people had their mind blown seeing ride this trail on a hardtail. I had a blast on this trail, but way too many hikers... I just had to share that.✌😎
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
🤘
@pe31174 жыл бұрын
I ride a Merida big 9 6000 2019 carbon frame and it has the “flex stay” system that flex the rear of the frame...you can really feel it and is very supple
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
Awesome, I love that concept! I am excited for the future of carbon hardtails. I think we can finally get light weight AND a great ride quality with engineering like this. Thanks for sharing your experience, I'd love to try one out
@tompike26282 жыл бұрын
I’m very happy with my Ritchey ultra seams very balanced and responsive I’m running 27.5 2.6
@charlesholland68514 жыл бұрын
I love my Timberjack. I would love to compare it to the Chamaleon!
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
Me too. The timberjack is one heck of a bargain. AND it has regular headset cups, so you could technically run an angleset with it (unlike the chameleon)
@mellissanash75174 жыл бұрын
There is also the new Salsa Rangefinder that looks fun and slightly more budget Timberjack now that the Deore model is no more.
@charlesholland68514 жыл бұрын
Mellissa Nash learn something new everyday. i’m going to look that up
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
@@charlesholland6851 bummer, it has a steeper head angle and longer chainstays than the timberjack. Should be great for bikepacking, but I have a suspicion the timberjack is more fun on trails. Unfortunately it also has a qr rear axle. :( Killer price point though.
@mellissanash75174 жыл бұрын
That one was like announced last week.
@eliaspszwaro923318 күн бұрын
Been looking at what kind of frame to get because be and my dad are building a hard tail. I was trying to figure out what material to get and have been looking at Santa Cruz chameleons and some chromag and knolly steel bike. After what you said about the chameleon I think I will be getting that
@slimdog724 жыл бұрын
I enjoy listening to someone who has actually has ridden a bunch of hardtails than the internet troll saying that they should make it in a different way. Great vid. Thanks. I have owned a hand full of hardtails starting in the early 90's. I still own my 1994 Kona hot. One other thing is steel is cheaper to fix as well. I broke my 2015 Ritchey P-29er last year. No help from the manufacture. I also am enjoying my first fat bike fully rigid this year as well.
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
agreed. Steel and ti are often thought of as repairable, while aluminum is usually thought of as disposable. Fortunately, I've never cracked either.
@jaredreynolds52504 жыл бұрын
I picked up a Breezer Squall when performance bike went out of business. AL frame, super stiff climbs like a billy goat. And for the riding I do (lots of flow) it really performs. Of course at 240 pounds the stiffness is a plus!
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
Nice! There were some great deals to be had at that blowout sale. I almost bought a bike then too.
@fkncarl93024 жыл бұрын
I ride an 11 year old aluminum hardtail (SE Filth Flyer) and I don't ever feel beat up after the ride (from the bike). I really don't have anything to compare it to other than my kids new aluminum bike(Co-Op DRT 1.1). But I am also a weirdo that rides a slightly undersized dirt jumper as an "all mountain" bike.
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
My hardtail feels a lot like a dirt jumper with a dropper. I totally get it.
@fkncarl93024 жыл бұрын
@@hardtailparty A dropper is definitely on my list but i need to swap my 1x9 to at least an 11 speed. Havasu trails are really pedaly.
@ericliebert52604 жыл бұрын
I understand how a tube flexes, but exactly does a triangle flex? I like the discussion keep the hardtail alive!
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
You won't see a triangle flex much, but imagine a triangle where all 3 sides were a mile long. No matter the material, it would still flex. The same principles apply to smaller triangles.
@evancole28804 жыл бұрын
Materials (any) are like springs, really really stiff springs. So imagine a triangle made of springs instead of tubes, with pivots at the nodes. Now in addition you have to think about the stiffness coming from the weld joints as well, resisting the rotational flex (think about a 3-bar rear suspension vs a 4-bar, the 3 bar flexes at the rear joint, the 4 bar actually has a pivot)
@aldeux70864 жыл бұрын
I currently have the dartmoor hornet. That beast doesn't flex. I can feel all the rough bits on my legs. But i love it. Being heavy i feel more secure and confident about that frame.
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
Yeah, that looks like a super stiff frame. But the geo looks fun!
@Chris-qd3oz4 жыл бұрын
Rode an Ally Dartmoor hornet and it was like riding a sledgehammer. On a CroMo Commencal now and it rides soooo much nicer, flex in the chainstays helps a lot. Both bikes made for the same kind of riding.
@jeffnogin75344 жыл бұрын
Stanton slackline, just the best bike I've ever ridden, even compared to my Ibis ripmo. You could use terms like supple etc but really what makes it good is that you can follow people down techy rocky stuff who are on full sussers and smash down it with them. You know your on a hardtail, but you never feel out of control the frame takes enough of the hit that your not jarred and bumped off the pedals and it's just fun and really satisfying.
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
I've been hitting up Stanton to send me a slackline for review, but no word yet. I'd really like to try one.
@anthonyharris4834 жыл бұрын
I love steel and some of the I've ridden were made from Tange Prestige/variants, True Temper Tt-lite, Columbus Cyber, Ritchey Super Logic and Reynolds 853. Having a bridgeless chainstay and monostay seatstays on one of them was quite nice.
@shanemb34 жыл бұрын
A couple other UK bikes worth mentioning: - Ragley Bluepig - Cotic Soul
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
I've owned a cotic soul. I loved that bike. I have a ragley coming for review soon.
@shanemb34 жыл бұрын
@@hardtailparty I've never ridden. Would love to try out. Only "downsides" to either that I see are the Soul has fairly traditional-ish geo and the Bluepig won't fit plus tires (limited to 2.4"). Guy Kesteven really seemed to enjoy the recently updated Soul.
@patcosgrave87614 жыл бұрын
So much sense here. Good work
@enrico86554 жыл бұрын
Greetings from Germany for doing this High quality content!
@joeltibbs80873 жыл бұрын
I totally agree. my alloy hardtail rode stiffer than so many carbon ones.
@toooldfortwowheels20484 жыл бұрын
Makes me even more excited for my Pipedream Moxie!!!
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
That's a bike I've been wanting to try for a long time. I've heard great things about them.
@roberdiscotres3 жыл бұрын
@@hardtailparty I just bought a mk3 moxie and can say it.s an incredible hardtail, very capable.
@akbiker96944 жыл бұрын
I preordered a RSD Middlechild aluminum so keeping my fingers crossed that it rides reasonably good! I almost ordered the steel one, then you replied to a comment I made in an earlier video about steel and said basically what you said in this video so you got me thinking.
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
I haven't ridden the aluminum one yet, but I think it's going to be the best selling MC yet. I can't wait to get my hands on one and share what I think of it.
@akbiker96944 жыл бұрын
Another reason I almost got the steel middlechild is because I didn't like the build of the aluminum one. So I called RSD and talked to Alex and he told me that I could get the aluminum middlechild with the steel bikes build so that's what I plan on getting!
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
@@akbiker9694 whoa, that's awesome he did that for you. In my experience, the steel mc isnt super supple. It's built to be super strong and handle anything you can throw at it, but it's a little stiff. I still need to ride the aluminum one, bit if it rides like my aluminum sergeant, it'll be great, especially with plus tires.
@RideAlongside4 жыл бұрын
Steel can be welded by anyone anywhere if it needs to be fixed. Would love to see you weld something together. Maybe a HP logo that could be purchased?
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
I only have a mig welder, no Tig. It'd be fun to try my hand at a framebuilding class one day though.
@RideAlongside4 жыл бұрын
hardtail party you should do it. I think it would be a good new frontier for you to explore.
@markbuttery27904 жыл бұрын
Very interesting observations and reasons involved with flex , suppleness etc. When you also throw in the equation of tyre size 2.25 - 3.00 this completely changes everything , then throw in Cush core which i found a game changer , does the world become round or flat lol
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
Agreed. I feel that the wider your tires are, the more you can get away with an overly stiff frame. There's still a difference, but even a stiff aluminum frame feels decent with 27.5x3.0 tires at 15 psi. One thing you can't tune out with tires, however, is the way a jolt travels across the frame when you hit something sharp.
@markbuttery27904 жыл бұрын
@@hardtailparty Yes Steve you have a good point, there are so many variables it opens up a can of worms, but your original diagnosis is spot on. I have a Norco 2020 Torrent 29r , the Cush core that i put in absorbed alot of shock and jolts, to the extent felt like a mini suspension !, or it could be just a placebo as it costs alot and i needed to justify this in my mind.
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
That new Norco looks sweet. I'd love to try one. Cush core makes such a difference on a hardtail, especially in rocky terrain! It's definitely not placebo, it makes a real difference. Tire pressure, rim width, rim material/build, and tire casing makes a huge impact too.
@dummkompf4 жыл бұрын
I want to see a comparison of a titanium timberjack to the aluminum one
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
Unfortunately I don't think I'll get the change to ride a ti one anytime soon, they're tough to find. I would guess it's a bit more flexy and supple. I'll be able to compare an aluminum rsd middle child to a steel and to soon.
@reallybigphilly4 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the clarification! As a mechanical engineer, where and how you add or remove material really makes all the difference. I don't design bike frames but have performed similar tricks on other projects. I am riding a Trek ProCaliber aluminium frame, with a pivot between the top tube and seat tube to give it some extra compliance. Budget's a bit too tight for a full squish and in the Netherlands there's really no places where a full squish is necessary, so I was looking for a comfortable hardtail, for a tall and heavy rider. Trek's trick works generally well and I love my bike... but for very specific bump sizes it bucks me off the saddle instead of absorbing it, somehow very efficiently preloading the spring. So I also need to be critical of my tyre pressure. I am in the process of converting to tubeless hoping it will give that extra bit of compliance in the tyres so the frame only needs to absorb relatively small fractions of any bump.
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
I love trek's design on that frame. Really intelligent. Yes, I would expect tubeless will make a significant difference. I like to run the widest tires I can fit on a bike like that, so you can lower the pressure even more. A nice low pressure will make a world of s difference. You'll have to experiment with different pressured to see what works best for you.
@sqd8r3 жыл бұрын
I'm so glad I ride solo, I never have the ego concerns raised about steel v. aluminum v. carbon. I know I cannot tell the difference, I'm not that sophisticated a rider. I just buy what I like. Great review.
@hardtailparty3 жыл бұрын
I think you'd be surprised. A lot of people tell me they're not nuanced enough to pick up on the differences then they get a new bike and surprise themselves.
@ericcontreras88634 жыл бұрын
Lots of knowledge here. Good video, very informative.
@trishaleaver3581 Жыл бұрын
Carbon hockey sticks. They can be stiff for heavier stronger players or super flexible for lighter players.
@csparksnc14 жыл бұрын
CHUMBA - my Stella is so choice don't know how they do it but it has all the feelings one loves in a steel rig - perfect SS for me - the Sendero looks super dope...
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
I've always wanted to try a chumba
@trailbunny23094 жыл бұрын
Nice video thanks, as a 250 pound guy looking for a new aggressive hard tail found it helpful. I’m tending towards a Chromag, but maybe should look at the Santa Cruz as much cheaper in New Zealand
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
The head angle will be significantly different between the two. Check out rsd bikes for a chromag style but a lot cheaper.
@trailbunny23094 жыл бұрын
hardtail party did have a look at rsd. But being 6ft 5 think they might be a bit small. But thanks for reply and will be following your channel now on
@thwangsworld11233 жыл бұрын
Steel is having a big renaissance at the moment with Reynolds and Columbus even now still developing profile and butting of tube's
@notice_fpv2 жыл бұрын
Have you been able to do that Chameleon/Timberjack shootout? I'm very interested in both of these bikes for '23!
@scottaw4 жыл бұрын
I’d certainly be curious to hear your take on the Salsa TimerJack. I picked up a frame for $450 last winter to build up a hard tail because I had components left over from cracked Trek Fuel Ex bikes. I had only been riding full suspension bikes, and wasn’t sure if I’d like a hard tail, but for $450 I figured I’d try it, and worst case it’d be a spring riding bike to hit the roads with before I could get my road bike out there. Well, last summer I spent more time on my hard tail than my full suspension, and while initially road fast, smooth single track I eventually took it on all my normal NorthEast trails... big rocks, roots, climbing up and descending down mountains and rock gardens. Literally fell in love with riding a hard tail. The nimble response of the bike on fast switchbacks or tight technical turns, along with feeling invincible on sketchy, hard climbs, were all things I didn’t completely expect. Yes, it does require more physical effort from you and you’ll feel more tired at the end of the day, but man...so much fun to ride. For what it’s worth, I initially built the bike up with a left over 2X Shimano drive train, SLX brakes, and a 120mm Fox 32 fork. It’s since been upgraded with a 1x12 SRAM drivetrain, XT brakes, and a 130 Fox Performance fork. The 130 fork gave it a bit more slacker head angle, around 66, and it’s a great combination of tight, responsive steering that is still super stable on chunky descents. And tire pressure is key. For my 230 lb loaded frame I run 21/24 on 29 x 2.5/4 tires, and it’s just right. Higher pressures and you get a bit beat up with the bounce on the rear, and I find lower pressures the tires aren’t stable enough in the high speed corners. I’ve been thinking about trying the new 2020 Specialized Fuse frame, $800.... but I’m honestly not sure if it would be an improvement over the TimberJack.
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
I have a 2020 Salsa Timberjack in for review right now. I just built it up last week, and today will be my first ride on it. It'll be a few months out, but I'll be filming a review of it. It looks like the 2020 timberjack is a little slacker than the earlier ones. They've also decided to only do higher-end builds on them. I've got some sneak peek videos on my Patreon Instagram account for my Patrons. Have you ever tried plus tires on a hardtail? They make it feel like a totally different bike. Some people love it, some people don't. I love it. I've got a few videos about my thoughts on tire sizes. I haven't ridden the 2020 fuse yet, but looking at the numbers, I'd expect the timberjack to be more fun at slower speeds and the fuse to be more fun at higher speeds (slacker head angle, longer chainstay, longer reach). I plan to review the fuse soon. Typically the rule of thumb is that every 20mm more fork you put on, you lose 1* of head angle.
@scottaw4 жыл бұрын
@@hardtailparty I wasn't aware of any frame changes for the 2020 models, but certainly look forward to your review. The geometry specs listed on the 2019 TJ's had a shorter crown to axle fork length (low 500's) than the 130mm Fox Performance fork (540), so I figured crudely I picked up a degree or so in slackness. Mostly am curious about your thoughts on the frame stiffness and how it compares to all the other frames you've ridden. Regarding plus tires... I also ride a Fat Bike, both in winter and summer months, and I've ridden a friends 29+ Stache. I thought the Stache was similar to riding a tubeless Fat Bike 4.5" tire, where the mass of the tires was really felt. Slow to spin up, not as nimble, monster truck over everything, etc. I'm not sure if I want to go much wider than the current 2.4/.5 setup, maybe a 2.6 would be fine, but a 3.0 (29+) isn't of much interest to me. Haven't really thought about a 650+, I really enjoy the 29er wheel size.
@scottaw4 жыл бұрын
hardtail party - By the way, KZfaq is lacking severely on Salsa bike reviews in general, so it’ll be good to see your review of the TimberJack.
@pcpwcail3 жыл бұрын
You bring up some good points, right now I'm trying to decide which way to go in terms of frame materials and whether or not it should be full squish or hardtail. I keep leaning to hardtail custom steel. I rode a bontrager for years before going to full suspension something about the simplicity of a hardtail keeps drawing me back
@mikekramer22964 жыл бұрын
I had an aluminum middle child in the cart and one click away from buying it. I couldn't pull the trigger. Will be waiting for your review to finalize my decision.
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
I love the geo, the weight, and the price. The real question will be how stiff it rides. I have a hunch it'll be pretty stiff.
@mikekramer22964 жыл бұрын
@@hardtailparty I like the geo numbers. I'm still a little unsure about size. I'm 5-10 (same height as Alex) and he says he rides medium. I know you're a little bit shorter and you ride the medium. Just makes me wonder. I really want a shorter stem too. I don't like having to buy a larger stem just to fit right in the bike.
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
@@mikekramer2296 What is the reach on your current bike? Where do you live?
@mikekramer22964 жыл бұрын
@@hardtailparty it's a 2014 giant trance. I don't think they used reach on their geo chart but top tube is 24.4".... which is actually a tiny amount shorter than effective top tube number on medium middle child. So if those measurements mean the same thing it might be ok but my stock stem is longer than I'd really like. Live in Vermont unfortunately. Not quite close enough to drive to RSD in Toronto.
@Jdreynolds24 жыл бұрын
I just bought a steel Big Honzo frame and have a full custom build on the way! I mostly went steel for the durability and I love the Honzo geometry. I haven't spent much time on hardtails in general but I think I'm gonna enjoy it! Not gonna lie though, my stomach dropped a bit when you said how stiff the steel Honzo is 😬 I'm not that concerned about it though. The build is sick and I think the geo is spot on for what I'm gonna be riding.
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
It's all good. If you love it, that's all that matters. And yes, those honzos are TOUGH! Glad to hear you have a build and geo that you're excited about. Also, don't forget that plus tires help take the sting out of a ride, so even if it is stiff, you can still get a softer ride with lower psi in those big 2.8 tires. Enjoy your new bike.
@Jdreynolds24 жыл бұрын
@@hardtailparty I'll let you know how I like it once I've got it built up! I grew up in Flagstaff and rode a lot there and in Sedona so it's been fun watching all your Sedona videos on trails that I'm familiar with. Keep up the sweet content!
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
@@Jdreynolds2 hit me up if you're ever back in the area, I'd love to join you on a ride. And in the end... We're not curing cancer, we're just riding bikes. And as long as a bike brings a smile to your face, that's all that matters.
@Jdreynolds24 жыл бұрын
@@hardtailparty Oh I'm sure it'll bring plenty of smiles! And yeah I get back to Flagstaff a couple times a year cause I still have family there. I'll hit you up next time! You should make a video of some Flag trails! There's some world class stuff there, in my opinion. Also just saw your edit on the first reply about the plus tires...I'm actually building it up as a 29er but I'm planning on 2.5 or 2.6" tires and I'm a lightweight so I can run low pressures regardless!
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
@@Jdreynolds2 once the snow melts, I'll definitely be featuring some flag trails a lot of stuff in flag is too gnarly to ride on my hardtail. I don't know the trails there well yet, but if like to.
@Coerced2 жыл бұрын
Real noticeable frame flex makes me friggin anxious though. I'm worried it'll break
@bass-player.224 жыл бұрын
You are so right you really need to test ride all bikes you are interested in if possible to really see how it feels to you and if it suits you and your riding style thank you for spelling this out for people to understand
@lifelivedfuller23884 жыл бұрын
My Esker Hayduke has the right amount of flex built into it. I love it ❤ hardtailparty have you demoed one?
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
I'm glad you like yours. Yes, I demoed one but I didn't like it. I scrapped the review video for it because it was mostly negative. I agree, the frame didn't feel harsh, but the geometry made it ride pretty boring to me. But... if you love it, that's all that matters. I think it might make an interesting bikepacking bike. And keep in mind, just because I don't like a bike doesn't mean someone else won't love it.
@ph35904 жыл бұрын
@@hardtailparty booo negative reviews are the bestest
@Potz4pizza4 жыл бұрын
@@hardtailparty Overforking it may have changed you mind a little (and depends on what chainstay length it was running). Currently running it with 130 mm travel (and slammed chainstay), and it's so fun to flick around and climbs like a dream. Heard the same from dudes running 140. Material and quality wise, the frame is Ace.
@gr8fulride4 жыл бұрын
Excellent video. Rode bmx in the 70s chromoly molybdenum was it. My current hardtail is a 2017 Marin nail trail 6 size XXL. It's aluminum and rides excellent. I notice more pedal bob on my urban rides especially at higher speeds , than I remember feeling in my previous hardtails. The rims have onetwenty9 etrto stickers and I think that's where I'm getting the flex . It's more noticeable with higher air pressure. But could just be the frame. Love the bike. Eventually if I ruin a rim, I'll upgrade and that might give an answer to what is flexing. Keep up the awesome channel. Ill get to South mountain and Sedona to ride eventually.
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
Awesome, glad to learn more about that bike, it's now on my radar thanks to you bringing it up. The thin seatstays look like they'll offer a really nice ride quality. Seeing that you're riding an XXL, I wonder if you're able to make those seatstays flex more than you're used to. They intentionally made the rear triangle thin so it would flex more. Probably great for smaller riders, but flexier for bigger guys. It could also be the wheels like you mention, but I'm betting it's the frame. It's probably perfect on the dirt.
@gr8fulride4 жыл бұрын
@@hardtailparty it does do great on everything . I don't do so well on some steeper rock garden and double black, even on the full squish . So the bike handles everything ive thrown at it .
@andrewtanner83664 жыл бұрын
Thoughts on Surly's Karate Monkey? I'd be interested to hear how you feel this stacks up from a stiffness perspective to other frames on the market.
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
I haven't ridden one long enough offroad to make a judgment call there. Sorry.
@angel-leonhontiveros48164 жыл бұрын
I've been riding a 2017 karate monkey almost going a year now (it's my only bike atm), and it's set up fully rigid in 29er mode. Only other hardtail I've tested that comes close to the feel of it is a commencal meta ht. I imagine it will be more supple when i get the 27.5 x 3 wheelset on it. I hope the 2cents helps out. It's a little more challenging getting access to bikes here in manila, unlike over there. 🤙
@JenkinsB4 жыл бұрын
Not the slackest, 68 deg I think. HP likes the slackeyssssss
@monocogenit12 жыл бұрын
I have a 2019 karate monkey. I like it and it will prob last forever, but it's pretty stiff and doesn't seem to turn to well, I think due to a pretty slack head tube, but that seems to be the norm nowadays. Like slacker is better.
@solitaryrefinement67872 жыл бұрын
Translation: You get what you pay for. The Brits seem to be investing a lot of time & craftsmanship into their resurgence of steel hardtails and at reasonable prices for boutique bikes that cost less than Chinese made aluminum big brand bikes.
@hardtailparty2 жыл бұрын
In this case yes, but there are some spendy bikes out there that aren't better than the cheap ones.
@solitaryrefinement67872 жыл бұрын
@@hardtailparty Agree 1000%, but that's more the exception than the rule. 👍
@smithfamily7104 жыл бұрын
I am guilty of the "steel is real", the last time l rode a aluminum hardtail was back in the early 2000s and yes that bike was very xc orientated and just rough as guts to ride. So after that experience l tried a steel ht and the was similar in geometry and instantly felt comfortable. 3 steel hardtails later and still happy. Oh l do have a carbon xc hardtail sitting in the shed, very stiff to ride only good for racing and l don't race anymore. Great video Steve, l must admit l never really put much thought into tube thickness between the different size bikes. And yes with frame geometry completely different to the late 90s and early 2000s l can understand how type A bike might be different to type B bike. Keep up the great work mate 👍
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
I had a similar experience with aluminum frames that beat me up in the past. I love a good steel frame, but I've had a tough time finding great steel frames lately.
@drmoynihan4 жыл бұрын
@@hardtailparty What about the Pole Chromoly Taival?
@jessedrury88614 жыл бұрын
I'm riding a 2020 Norco torrent. I love it. I would like to see if you could test one out sometime and see what you think!
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
That bike has been at the top of my list to demo as well. It looks fantastic. I'll see if I can get ahold of one to review for the channel. Thanks!
@pan0rama5464 жыл бұрын
I got the same bike...love it. Geo is absolutely spot on, bike climbs and descents like a champ. Frame is beautifully made and fells very natural under the rider. Point the bike up it GOES, point it down and it GOES. Norco nailed it with this one 💪
@jasonw70533 жыл бұрын
I was looking at the NS bikes eccentric cromo I wonder how that frame is. I have a dirt jumper from NS bikes and it's steel and feels great but it's hard to say if their 29'' hardtail mtb would be good too
@hardtailparty3 жыл бұрын
I haven't ridden one yet. It's bon my list of bikes to try.
@mackturtle824 жыл бұрын
Please get your hands on a Timberjack! I'd love to hear your thoughts on that, and the Karate Monkey.
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
I'd love to try both of those someday.
@monocogenit12 жыл бұрын
I had a gunnar single speed about 5-10 years ago, it was Reynolds 853, hand made piece of art and was the nicest and smoothest riding bike I ever owned. I now have a surly karate monkey, it rides like a brick compared to my sweet old Gunnar. Also, why is it so cool to have super slack headtube angles?
@anthonyharris4834 жыл бұрын
I know what you are saying because my old Schwinn Homegrown feels very supple for an aluminum frame. I had a steel frame made from True temper ox platinum and was very stiff
@framboise53262 жыл бұрын
I really appreciate your review.. I sold my (alloy) full suspension because I love climbing and the shock below my saddle was so inefficient.. however I want a supple bike I can descend with without the rear shock.. I do not hit super technical trails on my downhills and then realized that I did not need that rear shock. I'm glad I made the choice I did but I'm still on the market for a hardtail that will suite my needs. Haven't decided what is best for me (carbon vs steel vs alloy)... I'm a petit female rider.. have a carbon road bike that I love climbing with.. just not sure yet what would be best for me on the dirt
@hardtailparty2 жыл бұрын
It sounds like you'd be a perfect candidate for my bike consultation service over on Patreon. If that's not in the budget, check out my free reviews over on Hardtailparty.com
@gedrot24864 жыл бұрын
Any opinions/experiences on the Production Privee Shan? It's been my dream bike frame for a while now and I'm curious what you think of a steel frame that's designed to actively utilize the materials flex-ability.
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
It's been a dream bike of mine as well, but sadly I've never seen one in the flesh. There aren't many in the states. A lot of steel frame manufacturers claim that they build compliance into their frames, but I haven't felt that those claims are true in a lot of cases. I'd want to ride it for myself and see if I can feel the compliance or not. It sure looks nice though. I'd love to try a moxie pipedream too... And a Sterling... And some of ragley's latest bikes, and the new steel orange, and a kingdom, and the list goes on and on. The UK seems to have a ton of boutique steel Hardtail manufacturers. Even when a frame is made from Reynolds 853, for example, it doesn't mean it's guaranteed to ride in a certain way. It's just another way to market and bring to light who the tubing came from. Reynolds makes fantastic tubing, but that's just part of the equation when it comes to frame design.
@L4J204 жыл бұрын
I’ve got a Chromag Wideangle on the way. I’m curious to see how it feels after riding my Diamondback Sync’r for the past year 🤔
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
I'm going out on a limb here, but I'd expect it to feel a good deal more compliant/supple. Chromag has an excellent reputation. Let us know what you notice. Geo will probably be the biggest difference.
@evanbarnes99844 жыл бұрын
I've got a Chromag Rootdown and absolutely love it! Has that awesome direct feeling of hardtails, but doesn't feel harsh either. I demoed both the Sync'r and the Sync'r pro, and they both felt like incredibly harsh rides to me. Both frames drove every little bump directly into my feet. The Rootdown feels much more supple. I get all the trail feedback I need and want without any of that harshness. I haven't had the bike for long yet, but I'm so stoked I went with Chromag
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
Good choice with the rootdown, it's a nice frame. I agree, the Syncr is a harsh riding hardtail.
@L4J204 жыл бұрын
hardtail party UPDATE: Been riding the Chromag Wideangle for several months in MidTN....I love this bike! I’ve noticed that it is more compliant/supple than the alloy Sync’r. I’ve noticed that it holds a line better and doesn’t get bucked around as much on chattery, rooty, rocky sections. I was a little skeptical about “steel is real” but in this case...it is 😃
@MIHALMICHAEL4 жыл бұрын
Something you didn't mention is that frame builders usually build frames considering the average-weight rider. I weigh 64kg and I guess that most bikes are built to tolerate riders of up to 120kg. Can you make a video on the subject and the possible solutions to the problem?
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
I mention rider weight a bit in this video, but it is a great idea for a dedicated topic down the road. The best solution would be custom-built frame where the builder takes rider weight into consideration. Unfortunately a lot of light riders just have to get used to a stiff frame built for a heavy rider.
@dhones234 жыл бұрын
Great info, thanks! Did that RSD Middle Child Aluminum ride happen? I would LOVE to hear your ride report on that frame/bike!
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
Nope, I never received one for review. I wonder if they all sold out too fast.
@dhones234 жыл бұрын
@@hardtailparty I guess so, they're not even available for pre-order at this point.
@anthonyharris4834 жыл бұрын
I have a Rocky Mountain ALTITUDE T.O that is incredibly supple made from Tange Ultimate Superlight tubing. I'll never give it up
@AbrahamBarberi3 жыл бұрын
Very insightful video! Thanks
@MrPete4az4 жыл бұрын
This was so informative! You can never have too many bikes, but at least one of them must be a hardtail. I love mine and find it so much fun on the less chunky trails I ride - it feels more responsive and challenges me to be a better rider. I hope to get to the point that I can differentiate between various hardtail offerings! I am going to be at the Sedona BF in couple of weeks - what hardtail would you recommend taking out as a demo? I am 6"1 and 190lbs without gear. Thanks mate - keep up the good content 👍
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
I'm not sure which hardtails will be there. I'll be walking around and leading a few group rides (on my hardtail). I'll also be demoing bikes there. Check out the reeb tent, they're making some sweet hardtails these days. The redikyelous is a super fun hardtail. Why will probably also be there. They have a cool ti trail hardtail called the s7. It's not super aggressive, but great for mellow trails. I'll have my eye out for any hardtails I can find there. Say hi if you see me.
@MrPete4az4 жыл бұрын
@@hardtailparty I keep my eye of for you and hopefully join a group ride 😁🤙.
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
@@MrPete4az Friday 10am at the taileind booth. Saturday at 1pm at the club ride booth.
@madcapper62 жыл бұрын
Kinda funny about the whole "steel is real" thing because I've always been a bit biased against steel. I grew up poor so that meant the bikes I rode were typically old 2nd hand low quality steel rust buckets. The first decent quality bike I ever had was aluminum and I guess the impression always stuck. Ever since I've pretty much shunned steel but my perceptions are changing.
@a.drewwalker96624 жыл бұрын
Hardtail words of wisdom, TY!
@buggs99503 жыл бұрын
My main ride is an On One 456evo steel hardtail that's stiff as anything, supple it ain't. In fact I had to put a softer seat on it.. My old DHR aluminium xc hardtail is so flexy/wobbly a mate of mine won't even ride it off road. I can sit on it with my feet on the floor and visibly flex the frame by just pushing on the bars! I like steel 'cos it's harder to damage and if I do do something silly I can weld repair it. But to be honest I really couldn't care less otherwise.
@yegmtb83774 жыл бұрын
I hadn't a clue any of this stuff very informative thank you. I ride an aluminum HT xl frame one of Norco's 2018 models I'm not sure what I'm suppose to feel, to myself it feels nimble and quick compared to when i rode bikes in the mid 90s to 2002 those bikes felt heavy n hard pedaling at times. I am interested in the Norco torrent you rode a while back that is the kind of bike I'd like to ride. 👍
@BigWaveDaveO4 жыл бұрын
Great Vid. Nothing beats riding a bike to see if you like it. - Can you review the Specialized Fuse Comp or base 27.5. As you know, companies don't like to demo hardtails. Being a 250lb (fat old man), I want a hardtail to simplify my life on the trail and I don't want to worry about a rear shock. I'll use my legs and line choice to get down the hill.
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
The new 2020 fuse looks a lot better than the old one. I don't love the old one. It beats you up, and the geo is still dated. Not super fun to ride. The new one looks fun. I'll see if I can get my hands on one for a review.
@brauliogarcia98774 жыл бұрын
Great video. I ride a steel Stanton Switchback. With a 140mm DVO diamond. I love it. I’m curious if you’ve ridden one and what your thoughts were
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
I've been wanting to ride one of those for s long time. It looks beautiful, and I'm betting it rides great too. You don't see them much in the US. I wish Stanton could send me a demo bike to ride for s review.
@ph35904 жыл бұрын
Steve, I made a comment about the RSD Sergeant V3 being alloy, and how I wish it'd to be steel - maybe sparking this topic. I give a lot of credit to RSD's versatility - 275x3.8 and 29x3.0 on the same frame (Sarg v2 Ti) is awesome. My interest was not just "any" steel, but lightweight steel. I know lighter steel bikes ride better (if they aren't too flexy.) I'm right there with ya - I want to see more steel frames designed specifically with rider comfort in mind - especially bikes intended for bikepacking. Having ridden a lightweight (4.3lbs) alloy hardtail for that purpose, it just didn't do it - I missed steel (and suspension). It'd be interesting to see if 2020 Banshee Paradox (alloy) with it's "tuned for comfort" rear end improves any of that. Or if super-light alloy like the Specialized Chisel would ride any better. My guess is the Paradox probably rides like most alloy AM hardtails, and the Chisel like a roadbike (29x2.2 max tire eww). I think it's just better to say "lightweight steel is real."
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
It wasn't based on you, but I've heard about 20 other people make similar comments. The truth is, it's not just the weight of the steel that makes it ride nice. It's the frame design, the thickness of tubing, the way the joints are made, where the bracing is, etc., And steel doesn't have a corner on the market for supple frames. Be careful not to lump all alloy frames into the same category, and don't lump all steel frames into the same category either. Some feel great. Some dont. Stay tuned for the review of the banshee paradox.
@knarfis3 жыл бұрын
Ok, I am pretty much sold on the RSD MiddleChild (thanks to your videos and for RSD sponsoring you). It has everything I am really looking for. The only question is, Steel or Aluminum?? I ride the same terrain as you do here in Phoenix, but not as crazy as you. I am coming from an old school ('93) steel bike. Compliance is important for the rough terrain here. Thoughts?? You are an RSD guy and you ride the same environment.
@hardtailparty3 жыл бұрын
I no longer ride for RSD, but I still love their bikes. Their steel MC isn't super supple. I haven't ridden the aluminum MC yet. The Ti MC is where it's at if you can afford it. Lighter, no rust, and nice and comfortable to ride.
@anthonyharris4834 жыл бұрын
I try to get the smallest frame as possible so that I can use a long carbon seatpost which will give flex
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
What about when you're not sitting, and you need flex the most?
@anthonyharris4834 жыл бұрын
Wider tires do help high volume but I do like trail connectivity with a hardtail and rigid. So I'm crazy maybe
@norhlee85642 жыл бұрын
Thanks for this vid, very informative
@andrewadair2983 жыл бұрын
Love the video, very good advice! Any chance you'll review or demo a Niner Sir 9?
@hardtailparty3 жыл бұрын
Yes. Soon.
@anthonyharris4834 жыл бұрын
Was wondering if you were into vintage steel mountain bikes especially those greats from the 90s like Kona Explosif, Rocky Mountain Blizzard, Voodoo Bizango, Cotic Soul, Orange Clockwork etc. I collect vintage steel from that era and loved them
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
Yes. I don't collect them, but I'm a fan. I'll be rebuilding a 90s steel hardtail soon on the channel.
@anthonyharris4834 жыл бұрын
Nice can't wait to see
@johnykryll2 жыл бұрын
Really useful vid, thankyou
@AbrahamBarberi3 жыл бұрын
I just purchased a Cotic Soul 5th Gen frame (2018), and I really like it. Do you have recommendations, insight or opinions on this particular frame? Thanks
@arkoutarkout36544 жыл бұрын
I was going to ask if your a welder I been recerching hardtail for about 5 weeks now and in the last week I got 80% of the questions I hand from your videos. The I'm on lockdown and can only search. I'm UA488 PF welder first thing I look at is the joint design and the weld
@shawnalexander13054 жыл бұрын
Do you have any experience with the Marin steel frames? Like the pine mountain?
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
I used to own both a pine mountain and a team marin in the late 90s. I think they had Columbus tubing. I loved those bikes! They were one of the few bikes that didn't beat me up as a light rider. Sadly, I haven't ridden the modern pine MTN other than a parking lot test. Sadly, Marin doesn't bring their hardtails to demo events. It's a shame, because the price point of the pine mountain is amazing and I'd love to try one.
@simongavazza53774 жыл бұрын
@@hardtailparty what do you think about production privee shan 917 27?
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
@@simongavazza5377 I haven't ridden one. It sure looks like a cool bike. I've wanted to ride one for years, but never had the chance. I'd definitely want to ride one before ordering it though.
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
Hey Shawn, you're in luck. Thanks to your recommendation, I decided to reach out to Marin and see if I could get a Pine Mountain on review. They'll be sending one later this month. I'm excited to put it through its paces. I'd definitely recommend the pine mtn 2 over the pine mtn 1. The pine mtn 1 has a qr axle with 141mm hubs, neither of which is ideal.
@alanhart64074 жыл бұрын
hardtail party really looking forward to your Pine Mtn review! Really appreciate your reviews!
@PascalKolkman3 жыл бұрын
I still like my californian 1995 MARIN BEAR VALLEY Special Edition double butted Chro-mo STEAL tange tubing MounTainBike, The SE edition is lighter than the standard non se edition. This MARIN MTB frame is comparable to MARIN's '90 top model the Pine and the Eldridge grade. Frame size 52 cm seat tube and 59 cm top tube is rather large. I agree in what you say about the triangle angle of a frame also determines suppleness. In old school MTB's the geometrie ; the triangles were larger, the top tube was more horizontal , the head tube and seat tube were longer than those same tube angles & lengths in modern compact sloping frames, allowing more natural flex in those old school larger tubing frame. Also the 750 gram lightweight MARIN ROCKSTAR FRONT FORK in size 1 - 1/8 " wich can also absorb little road vibrations allows me to ride this steal MTB as a rigid hard tail on single tracks without a heavier front suspension fork. I don't know much alloy frames wich can by ridden that comfortably with a rigid front fork anymore. Also my vintage 1985 chro-mo steal GIANT SPEEDER LITE race bike frame connected by lugs has a thin bent steal tube front FORK wich does an amazing job in absorbing road bumbs even with small 25mm race tires those thin tube steal front fork remains comfortable and is lasting 35 years so far without cracking. So if you would ask me what material is the best for building a comfortable durable rigid front fork? I would choose bent steal ones over oversized aluminum and probably over carbon too, if weight is no big deal.
@robertolavarria6064 жыл бұрын
Good video Steve! Thanks for the break down and knowledge 👍
@bsauced4 жыл бұрын
Great video! Keep up the awesome content. I just purchased my first steel hardtail last week- it's a Niner SIR 9 2018 model. I'm pretty stoked on it but I don't have much to compare it to because I'm pretty new to mtbing. Your channel was a big inspiration for my recent purchase. Thanks for everything you do! 🙏
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
Congrats on a new hardtail, that's great!
@thebackforty9394 жыл бұрын
yeah i have a chromag chromemoly thats just sooo rough for general riding here in las Vegas for our gravel/rocky stuff.... i have ridden it with both 29r and 27.5+ but i got a replacement frame from marin thats aluminum and wonder if its worth building or not.
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
Chromags are pretty stiff.
@S.Mallard4 жыл бұрын
Would like to hear your toughts on a Chromag rootdown
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
I haven't ridden one more than half a mile. I need more time on one to make a judgment call on it and share my thoughts, but I liked the half mile I rode. The geo looks almost identical to my middle child. I reached out to chromag to get one for review, but they weren't interested.
@jamisongardner81394 жыл бұрын
I really enjoy the Rootdown! I ride a Rootdown with 27.5+ tires that is on the smaller size for me. I like to size down in HTs because I don't race them, just ride them for fun. Consequently, my Chromag feels pretty light for a steel HT to me. I weigh around 210-220 geared up and the Rootdown feels really good. The geometry is my favorite. I run a 160mm fork which gives it a 64 HTA and the STA ends up being properly steep when the fork sags. I don't get a noodle sensation and it always surprises how good it feels when I send a 3-4ft drop to flat. On really fast, repeated square edge hits I am definitely slower than on a proper full sus bike. I don't think that is a knock on the Rootdown though, it is just the nature of a HT. That being said, I never really had a problem keeping up on black diamond trails when my buddies were on full sus bikes and I was on the Rootdown. I don't think you can go wrong with the Rootdown! This is based on a year of riding, some of which was with HT Party himself! In fact, Steve rode my Rootdown for just a bit in Sedona when I lived in AZ!
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
@@jamisongardner8139 Great to hear from you Jamison! @samuel, the one Chromag Rootdown I rode for a short time was Jamison's bike. He's a great rider, and he knows his stuff. You can trust what he says. I liked the ride I had on it, but I'd love to try one out for a week or two. Also, remember that Chromag seems to change their geo every year, so a 2016 rootdown will have very different geo from a 2020 rootdown. Chromag has an excellent reputation for building durable frames that will take some serious abuse.
@S.Mallard4 жыл бұрын
@@jamisongardner8139 what height are you and what size did you go with?
@Adamas_834 жыл бұрын
Waiting on my 2020 to get built up as we speak! March batch of frames because the initial batch pre-sold completely out. I went with a large, and I'm 6' even, 34" inseam. So far customer service has been great, very responsive and their smaller staff is very personable. It was a toss up for me for quite some time between chromag and RSD - Alex is super friendly too. So many good options for us!
@mountainlessmtb99404 жыл бұрын
Everything I wanted to comment on you covered good job sir!
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
Thanks! It's surprising how much misinformation there is out there. I hope to debunk it one video at a time.
@mountainlessmtb99404 жыл бұрын
@@hardtailparty sometimes it's opinion based due to lack of exposure or an old bike shop guy not keeping up with new tech. I say study everything watch and read all reviews then go have fun
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
Agreed. With reviews, especially on KZfaq, I'd be real careful not to pay too much attention to riders who have been riding less than 5 years and their reviews. There's good info in there, but many of them don't have the experience to distinguish what they're feeling, or the proper technique to get the most out of a bike. It always scares me when a beginner rider "reviews" a bike on KZfaq, then just praises every aspect of it and uses terms like "confidence inspiring, nimble, playful, etc." without actually describing the ride characteristics of the bike. But, people are welcome to post whatever videos they want. I just hope viewers are cautious about paying attention to "reviewers" with limited riding experience.
@mountainlessmtb99404 жыл бұрын
@@hardtailparty I changed my watch reviews and throw everything out the window and go ride now I wish I wouldn't have 😂 don't forget some of the techno geeks say things work terrible when they may actually be very affective just not for them . I'm old school and it's cool that your telling the truth about things
@hardtailparty4 жыл бұрын
@@mountainlessmtb9940 old school rules.
@charlie64324 жыл бұрын
What’re some good steel frames you recommend off the top of your head? I see and know you’ve enjoyed your RSD MiddleChild.