What do you think about this discussion? Leave your thoughts down below. Support my work here: www.joeycarbstrong.com/supportourwork 🌱 For free help going vegan 👉🏻 Start here: bit.ly/JoeyVegan22 Download my UK Vegan pamphlet here: www.joeycarbstrong.com/downloads

I've been vegan for over 30 years and never for a single moment felt it was difficult or I wanted to stray.

Watching this has made me realize that it's much easier to be vegan than to justify not being vegan.

I've been vegan for almost two years now in Argentina. A large part of our culture surrounds animal abuse: asados, jineteadas, etc. And almost all of our income comes from exportation of animal corpses. Aaand we are a third world country: basically, we earn less, and things are more expensive. Even with everything, I had never ever once thought to stop being vegan, it's easy and affordable. But most importantly, it is kind and beautiful. If I can be vegan here, most people can, there is no excuse.

I have been an ethical vegan for over 14 years and I was a massive carnivore prior, I am and was an animal lover and watched Earthlings I forced myself to watch the entire documentary, once it was done I said to myself, "looks like you have a big decision, you are either NOW an ethical vegan OR you are a HYPOCRITE" I chose veganism, the first 6 months were hell, since I did not care for veggies or fruit I loved steaks, and burger with fries! But it was an ethical choice so I lived on potatoes, Fritos, Oreos, for a long time until one day around the 4th month I finally felt that shift in my taste buds then it was pretty easy from then on. This guy is looking for an excuse to make exceptions to his veganism, once he does cross that line he is now on a diet, and ALL diets fail!

I have sympathy for people in his position. Something hasn't clicked yet so he doesn't fully see how wrong it is to harm animals. I was in that position for years, where I wanted to be vegan but will power alone wasn't enough to stop the behaviour permanently. Then one day it suddenly clicked and there was no struggle at all in avoiding all products derived from animals.

As a vegan, obviously I disagree with a lot of his points, but I really liked how he approached this debate with an open mind; too often, debate turns into trying to "own" the other person instead of a learning opportunity, but this guy laid out his points, admitted when he was unsure or wrong, while still asserting his beliefs and the rationale behind it, even if I disagree with those beliefs.

“Psychically speaking, it’s too much to bare” . Self control is too big of a responsibility for the average consumer.

If vegans eat backyard eggs, we justify everyone eating backyard eggs. There aren't enough backyard hens to meet that demand, therefore factory farmed supply and demand is the industrial solution. Why can't people understand this? SMH

He isn't vegan. He's plant-based. Case dismissed.

If mental gymnastics was a sport, then this guy would be an Olympic gold medalist 🥇

I think a lot of people are in denial about the harm they cause themselves when they give up on their moral principles. So when we talk about veganism as a burden, a lot of times that’s being done without weighing it against the harm we cause ourselves when we feel unprincipled. There’s a reason why people who have strong principles live satisfactory lives while unprincipled people just kind of aimlessly walk around chasing momentary pleasure through: sex, drugs, attention, social validation, food, comfort, and hoarding wealth, which never truly leads them to peaceful satisfaction. Constantly looking for a loophole in animal rights is similar to the way crooks try to find ways to commit crimes that district attorneys just can’t fully prosecute them for. It’s a scummy way of living one’s life and erodes your dignity.

People claiming to be vegan when they are not, do not have empathy for all animals and when questioned they would be easily recognisable as not being vegan. But because they say they are, we too often trust them without question. I know thag I will never not be vegan and I did not call myself vegan until I knew I would not be consuming or using animals intentionally anymore.

Joey, the title should NOT say "quit veganism," but "quit a plant-based diet." The two really need to stop being conflated and confused as interchangeable and the same. There is no such thing as an "ex-vegan," and it's all about the animals, not just what you eat.

No, morals don’t “run out”. Either you have morals and you respect the animals or you don’t. There is no middle ground. Yes, it is hard sometimes, but it is hard for the animals ALL the time.

You can't be a part time vegan just like you can't be part time dead, a bit pregnant, mostly human but from time to time a rock, etc. Plant based eating is one thing, veganism another (half vegan or part time vegan doesn't exist).

He's plant-based, not vegan. Big diff. He couldnt answer the first question joey asked him and when he did, it wasnt about the animals. Plant-based, not vegan.

I wanna be a part-time animal abuser. Said the supposed vegan. 😂 Whole foods has the best vegan donuts. They are better than any donut I've ever had.(in the US)

This was a really interesting debate. His point on how most things we do in our society cause a certain level of suffering and how its difficult to know what to do/ what not to do and where the threshold lies is a really good one. I agree, that it isn't physically possible for the average person to be 100% moral and to cause 0 suffering. However, for me, its about doable and sustainable moral behaviour. Being vegan is becoming increasingly easy, and is a really efficient way of doing a lot of good, without it being impossible. So while I still need to buy a phone, and clothes and food that unfortunately is transported across the world, I can attempt to reduce my impact within this system by making small, sustainable changes (eg. being vegan or buying second hand). So to counter him, while it is difficult/ impossible to be completely virtuous, being vegan is a great way to help that. And stopping for 3 months a year seems pointless as it undoes the hard work put in to BE more virtuous. Yes we cant mentally handle being completely ethical or perfect, but stopping veganism in order to achieve this seems silly when we already do 'unethical' things simply to survive in our society. I hope that kind of made sense! :)

I think if you don't eat animals and dairy you should stick to that ALWAYS no matter who offers you a cheese sandwich Veganism is COMPASSION FOR ALL ANIMALS

This guy was plant-based not vegan. He doesn't think like a vegan or even act like one. He's more vegetarian and will probably go there because it's easier.

I find it hard to separate all my values and beliefs. Veganism isn't a standalone issue but part of the whole. Hard to understand why someone supporting animal rights, human rights, LGBTQ+ rights, workers rights, socialism/communism, climate measures etc. wouldn't support all the others. (Not directed at Joey or the interviewee as I didn't get those kind of vibes from this vid)

This is one of endless things that are wrong with kids these days. Honestly, all the student debates I've watched are deeply frustrating due to the kids feeling _certain_ that they _know_ everything and are the end-all be-all of enlightment and wisdom 🙄 What's worse is that I do not forsee most kids in these new generations truly maturing as they age, because narcissism has become so rampant within them that they simply will never admit they are wrong about anything. Veganism is about the animals first and foremost and no true vegan would ever think of going back or "taking a holiday" from it. I became vegan because it's the right thing to do _for our fellow animals_ - Everything else is a bonus and it's most certainly *not* a diet or a trend, but it's especially _not_ a religion of any sort. Lastly, that comment he made about "a few cases were someone needs to eat animals and their by-products due to health" is utterly ridiculous. Every single medical study that objectively compares whole-food plant-based diets to others as they relate to different health conditions, proves that a whole-food plant-based diet is far superior to the rest. Even in cases where diet alone will not cure or reverse a disease, it will certainly always help. Therefore, having the most anti-inflammatory, nutrient-dense, species-appropiate diet will always result in the best health outcome. To quote Dr. Milton Mills, "Drinking milk for its "nutrients" is like inhaling cigarette smoke for the oxygen it contains - It's a bad idea!" And the very same applies to all animal products and by-products.

🐘🌱 He is struggling to justify Himself 😢🪿

Where's Wally meets Inspector Gadget

I really can’t understand why there are “vegans” and “vegetarians” who want so badly to find some kind of loophole to consume animal products when they supposedly understand animal exploitation and speciesism. How can you understand the ethical implications of it and still see these “products” as food??? When I went vegan, animal “products” were no longer food?

His main point is the practicability of being morality consistent 24/7

As soon as I have a choice to buy an ethical smartphone I will be happy to do so.

wow.. this guy is literally running through the vegan bingo card, one square at a time..

It's crazy that the very first words out of his mouth weren't, "I think veganism is about not causing unnecessary harm to sentient beings. I don't think that animals should suffer because of my fleeting desires." or something along this nature. He doesn't seem to really understand what veganism actually is which is his primary problem. He has no real objective or foundational underpinning. No wonder he thinks he can vacillate at will. 😞

Me… I’ve eaten meat nearly every day for my entire life. Used to laugh in the face of vegans… But… the past couple of months I’ve had a flash of disgust when I see slabs of meat going on forever in supermarkets. I’m noticing I’m throwing away more meat (which makes it even worse) and your videos have done it for me. I’m making the switch. Simple as that. Thank you. That’s all I have to say.

This was interesting, being vegan for 8+ years now I know it can be hard never like what he was saying but it can be mentally straining at times I just look at an animal and remember how amazing they are and why we do it.

I'd love to hear this guy discuss a variety of topics. Such an intelligent thought provoking dude.

I totally get it. I was vegetarian when I was 13 and then turned vegan at 18 but it was really like a whole new programming and then had a lot of shame speaking up to my friends and family and really standing my ground. Depression hit me too and I started eating meat and dairy and everything. It wasn’t until my dog died that it clicked and now I do a lot of research and learned about the dairy industry and am sick to my stomach thinking about the disgusting things we do to innocent child like animals! That is why my husband and I raise our children vegan too and do not make any exceptions for anything. If people try to give to give our children treats we always ask if it is vegan and even though it can turn the situation a little awkward when we turn it down (because they are normally not vegan) we still try to stay friendly and just nicely turn it down because there is nothing good about eating animal products (for us in our life situation). No excuses! Animals are not food and enough is enough of raping, abusing and murdering them like it is somehow excused. #veganforever #veganforjazzy

it's probably harder for young people to stay vegan. they may become vegan just because it sounds cool, but when they realise the size of the commitment it entails, they get a bit overwhelmed. when you're older, you've had a lot more time to think about it. also, there is the extra incentive of health

Kind of a strange conversation. The young man was really stretching for a way to ease his conscience.

This is interesting to me. I'll be going to Japan for three months. I'll be in big cities and also very rural areas. I've heard that Japan isn't the most vegan friendly place outside the large cities. However, I'm not too worried. I think the most difficult situation would be being in someone else's home and having to refuse some food they prepared for me (especially with language barrier). But, there are always options and planning goes a long way!

Interested in being a part time vegan. How peculiar!!!! Do it for a month see its good for everyone involved then do it forever ❤

I understand where he is coming from. Majority of vegans quit because society just isnt supportive. 😢 At the end of the day, for me, I think of all the baby animals I've personally seen, in those awful conditions. I could never support such cruelty.

Inspector Gadget?

I realize I don't know you Joey. But can't help but LOVE you for the person you are. You are an all around inspiration ✨️ Thank you! Animal Guardian here for 26 years now and will be forever. 💚🌱🤜🤛

He seems to be saying that he thinks not eating meat and dairy is a form of suffering and or a loss for him; and his concern is how moral he should be to be a decent memeber of his community. How much can he get away with and still be a "moral" person.

"Part time -animal abuser- vegan" 🤡He took the Oatly advert from last year (or 2 years ago?) serious🤡

I love this guy's vibe, physically and mentally, I could see myself being friends with him, and I value his big-picture and outside-the-box thinking about environmental issues, (I do love all the places a conversation topic such as veganism could go) despite them not having a huge place in the vegan conversation, I also went the rout of Vegetarian for 10+ years and 2+ resent years vegan. I don't miss the dairy in the slightest, but I have 0 pressure on what I eat and ensure nothing is made for me or given to me, so I could potentially understand a scenario where opening the vegan conversation to a loved one (let's say one who doesn't get it or never remembers, but they're family) would be hard for some people, I'm a person who lets people know right away that I'm not going to fall for any type of peer pressure, but again, for some, it would be tempting to fall for any type of peer pressure, and I feel like this man isn't ready to stand up to everyone and anyone for his beliefs, I sympathize with that, although I don't agree with it in this context because I strongly believe animals and their bodily functions should not be products and should also not be seen for consumption aside from freely sharing earth together and bonding in this current development on earth and going forward,

I believe he was psychologically exhausted, I believe he wanted to stop playing the "I can be perfect game." I think he is beginning to feel emotionally disconnected from his loved ones. I think this has to be talked about deeply in Vegan to Vegan conversations. I consider myself Vegan for 7 years by now. I buy cheese and eggs for my girlfriend, once a year I eat a not vegan traditional bread in my country which contains milk and eggs ("pan de muerto") I don't buy it, I just participate in the celebration and I eat the bread when offered obviously i like the bread. Does that make me not vegan??? Well, you decide for yourself. It is something I just do.

You did great in this 🖤

Thank you for having these conversations!

you won't get the absolution you seem to look for. do bad things, then you have to deal with feeling bad about it. Take responsibility ffs

Can I butcher an animal myself? No. So there´s only one self-coherent choice.

He lost me when he said "evading taxes can lead to deaths" an NPC slave... This is how strong the leash is on humans neck.

I really like this guy and his attitudes for the most part. Good points shared and refreshing convo

As a late 20s/early 30s guy, the inspector gadget mac isn't doing him any favours. Obviously intelligent but I don't think he's vegan really...

When I was vegetarian, I was doing it for the animals but I hadn't made the connection fully. When I was drunk, I would eat meat. When I went vegan, it was a whole emotional experience. I saw the suffering and I was majorly depressed by it. Now I do not see meat as food at all, and my nightmares consist of me suddenly changing and eating meat. Like that is a nightmare scenario because it disgusts me so much. Even when it's inconvenient, even when I feel left out, even when there are no good options on the menu. I think this guy hasn't made the connection fully.

Smart dude, attentive listener and honest interlocutor, so refreshing🤩 He shows how emotions can get the better of us and illustrates the value of strengthening ones mental fortitude to enable a more ethical society and world. Plant🥦 strong💪 in body, Vegan in mind 🧠/spirit.

Loved this one. Internal discussions are more useful to me than conversations with carnists. Thanks to both of you

Next time someone says we need meat to live, just ask them, when’s the last time you’ve seen a human kill an animal in the wild with their bare hands? We’re not predators, therefore we’re not carnivores. At best you could make an argument for eating insects, but I choose not to eat them because I enjoy having a clean conscience eating only plants and having a great bill of health to go with it. This isn’t bragging, this is hoping to encourage others to do what I believe is empathetic and moral.

I’m vegan, and love Joey. However, this was the Joey’s best. But it was a very difficult conversation for sure. I like that Joey remained patient and calm. Tried to understand and come up with the best answer. For example: Less evil option is to give them a low income countries give a job. Then others can say, “less evil option is to give them a life even if we take it away later.” Many other point by Joey didn’t feel right.

This video and the Alex/Peter Singer response video have got me pondering moral philosophy issues. Living in the modern world is so very complicated, as we live in a highly globalised economy so the results of our economic choices can be wide reaching to people, ecosystems and animals all across the world. Many debates on veganism revolve around the utilitarian (maximising wellbeing, minimising suffering) vs Rights-based. The Rights based moral perspective says "this action contravenes this individual's rights therefore it is always wrong" but has the disadvantage that it's not always easy to decide what rights individuals are entitled to, it is open to debate because you cannot see or experience 'Rights', they are ideas. Whereas the utilitarian moral perspective has the advantage that we directly experience suffering - we observe other animals and through out faculties of empathise with them, see that they suffering too, and seek to end their suffering. But it has the disadvantage that it's possible to think up scenarios of people doing obviously wrong things, for the sake of "maximising wellbeing for the many." Perhaps there is no perfect moral philosophy, we just have to do the best we can. Thought experiment: Imagine there is an all-knowing utilitarian calculator that could give instructions on what to do in every action. It knows the results of every single action, taking into account every single consequence of your actions. What would it recommend to do, and to avoid doing? What would life look like if we all followed it's instructions? So what would an ethical world look like, taking into account every aspect of our economy? Food: Vegan. This is one of the easiest lifestyle choices to implement for most people today. Resulting in the maximum reduction of suffering to animals, there would be a massive environmental improvement with the ocean's healing, mass rewilding, vastly reducing carbon emissions. In this world plant and mushroom farmers and workers would be paid fairly. Some of the ex-animal farmers would help with the conservation work and rewilding. Clothing: Sustainable (what materials are the best? how many clothes are too many?) genuinely fair trade. Transport: Designing cities so that people can get around by public transport, walking and cycling as easily as possible. There is a debate around ecars and other such things because of the environmental damage or mining for precious mineral and metals for electronics and batteries. Shelter/building materials: Sustainable. Small environmental impact e.g. not taking lumber from rainforests Electronics: Again, it's easy to forget the terrible working conditions of people mining for the materials we need for electronics, and the people on the assembly lines. They need to be given the best working conditions possible not treated like slaves. Apple and other electronics Entertainment: Personal choices to avoid forms of entertainment that exploit humans and animals. I'm a plant based eater but not vegan. I'd like to go full vegan in the future, will buy vegan shoes next time I buy shoes.

This is why I started my Veganism Weekly Reminder every Friday. For individuals just like this. Veganism is not a diet nor is it about the environment. This person is part time plant based at best so he and everyone else needs to stop using the word vegan. Veganism is an ethical stance one takes that they are against animal oppression and violence for not only food but for clothing, entertainment, animal testing, hunting, fishing, etc. It's not something you turn on and off. Do you turn on and off being racist? Abusing children? No! These plant based for the environment individuals are obliterating this movement and they need to get away from veganism and Animal Liberation and take their arrogance and selfishness elsewhere. My mother could be dying and if she offered me a sandwich with someone's stolen secretions and I would tell her no in a heart beat.

Joey what’s your opinion on the pet food industry? Talk to us about what you’d like to see adapted in the industry. I also am a pet owner. I have a cat who needs fish and meat in her diet. What do you think could replace traditional methods? I’d love your thoughts and opinions. Thanks again for what you do. Stay blessed

Thank you for your work Joey and team! You’re a light in this world for animals.

The iPhone factory example represents global capitalism in general. It’s not about boycotting one particular iPhone factory, but buying those things does cause suffering and death. It’s just harder to talk about it in the context of veganism because it’s obvious that you can buy vegetables instead of nest to save animals, but buying anything at all under capitalism has a good chance of harming humans. There’s no simple swap like there is with vegan vs. omni. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t matter, but Joey is used to talking about veganism and so he’s got a bit of a mental block here. If you can cause a death more directly or less directly, both deaths are equally wrong for the victim, but the more direct killing is worse for the perpetrator. As in the killer is more guilty if they kill more directly, but the actual effect of their actions is the same. If you’re the one who’s dying, you don’t care if you were killed directly or indirectly, you just want to survive!

this guy is very intelligent his intentions are pure but he got confused I think he was struggling with himself and this discussion helped understand animal rights better what he said about other things we practice in that hurt animals or humans indirectly is very true we should avoid polluting and supporting industries which violet human rights

🙌🙌🙌🙌

Its like him saying I want to be a pedophile for 3 month only !!

The biggest similarity between the damage done buying an iPhone vs eating a burger is that they are both done off-screen and you don't see it. Like, they are both just presented as different things to purchase, in our society. This makes them _seem_ like they should be similar wrongs, but the reality is still that a being is definitively and an order-of-magnitude being horrifically harmed directly in the burger scenario. If both supply chains could be end-to-end transparently seen when you see them in the store, still the burger would come out way worse morally. (And to illustrate this, you can bring it to dogs- of course a dog burger is seen as completely worse than our electronics sourcing issues).

There's a very big difference in direct and indirect actions, for example, breathing releases CO2 and that could cause respiratory diseases in people and kill them, but that doesn't mean that you can stroll up to someone and stab them. Indirect causes is a very slippery slope.

I don't think this man knows what being vegan mean, how would you turn it on and off?, VEGAN FOR LIFE

Does a rapist who rapes only occasionally make the rape victim no longer a victim no the abuser created an excuse to continue rape

He was a good person to interview. He may not be consistent with his train of thought but at least he was calm enough and well spoken.

this man really said that tax evasion is worse than murder. holy fuck

Ban Slaughter

The underpinning beneath everything is that there is no justifiable reason to needlessly take a sentient life, it’s destructive and brings such negative energy that ricochets. One thing i still battle with (open to viewers to reply to this) is the market of secondhand leather goods, mostly focusing on vintage designer furniture pieces as they are largely all leather and whilst it doesn’t create a market to use animals as you can’t produce a new ‘vintage’ piece from the 1960s but it does normalise using flesh as a product. As it’s crazy to throw away things like this that are already produced but … tell me your thoughts.

In all my 47yrs of not eating animals have I ever been tempted to 'go part time' as an animal lover!! What an absolute plonker!!

He argues like a climate activist vegetarian that likes eggs. No way is he vegan

If you're even questioning it you were never really vegan.

Although I disagree with the way he goes about it, I think he raises some important points. I’ve been trying to be more conscientious of my consumption of products. I guess that’s pretty much what veganism is. What’s great about veganism is that it’s pretty easy way to know that what you’re buying is not causing unnecessary suffering of animals since their rights aren’t being exploited. However, the exploitation of human rights in the global south and in developing countries is also abhorrent, and so much of our lifestyle is built upon that exploitation. Not to say that it is equivalent to the animal suffering/rights violations but it is still undeniably significant. That being said, I wouldn’t use that to justify an annual 3 month break or flexitarian kind of thing, but instead I would argue for complete minimisation of suffering/exploitation across the board, which includes avoiding the suffering of animals AND humans in the production of our products and lifestyles. Correct me if I’m wrong, but to my knowledge it seems more difficult to trace the human exploitation in products.

At the end of the day being vegan is the easiest thing you can do to directly end suffering Our clothes are made by slave labor but it’s a lot harder to purchase clothes made by well paid employees etc

14:50 when ur unsure whether or not murder is worse than tax evasion, maybe you need to take a step back

That guy is loyal to his emotions not to the animals he has no principles compared to Joey Carbstrong speaker and Tarrion Partridge and camera crew team

11:05 "Im talking about reality here"💯💯💯💯💯💯

Bernard Williams came up in this very interesting conversation. I’ve noticed a lot of talk recently about the psychological motivations for making moral choices. Here it seemed like the moral case for Veganism is ironclad, maybe however, people need emotional motivations to be moral

What are these 'exotic' cases wherein a person needs something from an animal's body? I keep hearing the various phrases, but I've never heard anyone follow-up with it. More verbal-fictions? Probably.

I'm six minutes in, everything he is saying is about HIM, 'how virtuous should *I* have to be?' - who's counting your virtue points? It's not about how you come across to other human beings mate. I'm interested to see how this goes but so far it seems that he thinks that he is the victim...

I wouldn't have done nearly as well as you, but having the gift of hindsight, these are the points I'd want to bring up to him: 1.) Red herrings don't have rights. 2.) No perfect consumption under capitalism isn't a coherent excuse to let ourselves not do the best we can. 3.) What evidence does he have that living 3 months "off" 9 months on is any easier than being consistently on? This would be a great chance for you to bring up addiction if you chose to, something you surely know a lot more about than him.

Just because there are injustices somewhere does not justify injustices elsewhere. That is all. All these mental calisthenics to equate iphones and environmental pollution and labor law violations with violations of animal rights are just an exercise in pretzel logic.

💚💚💚

A company exploiting workers to manufacture a product that is recognized as morally neutral, like a phone, doesn't make the product immoral. The fault lies with the company. One could use the product and protest the company's immoral actions. Animal farming, on the other hand, is recognized as an immoral practice whichs makes an immortal product. So the use of said product is also immoral.

I will say, in the first part he makes total sense. What he was saying is that if a person kills another one it caused 1 death, but an oil spillage could cause millions. I agree that what matters is who causes more deaths, but we can't believe the murderer is worse by default. Also, climatic events linked to human activity cause millions of deaths every year, so by following the "number of deaths" principle, partecipating in the transport industry is worse than a murder. I believe that's what he was trying to say and I don't think there's a satisfactory answer from a veganism perspective (unfortunately, I'm vegan too lol).

staying vegan is not hard

That guy lost before he even started… you can’t beat vegans , they are right no matter what the outcome. Instead of distracting yourself with fruitless arguments , vote against them, educate non vegans about actual improvements in animal agriculture and stability with a sustainable food supply

Thank you, Joey. ❤

Best debate on the channel so far

@7:25 this guy is reasoning deeper than the vegan doctrine, to a point ole uncle joeski didnt even understand the indirect influences of choices, that can also cause harm. I love when vegans assume by default that bc of the doctrines they adhere to, theyre also the most considerate, conscious and intelligent.

It’s funny how people who are deemed very clever or think they are can sound so dumb.

This guy needs a shovel

Another great conversation Joey

I haven't eaten meat in over 30 years and I don't intend to in the future. It's not that hard. Once you get away from it you really don't want to go back to it. Just like when you drink Coca-Cola and then you go to Diet Coke it's hard to go back to regular Coca-Cola. So many people are walking by their flesh instead of by their Spirit.

Watching this at 2x makes Joey look erratic 😂

UUUGHH PPL CAN BE SO STRANGE.